MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Comments
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths-about-why-the-south-seceded/2011/01/03/ABHr6jD_story.html
The Lost Cause excuses persist today. It is well known that Lincoln gave freedom to enslaved people in Southern States, but did not offer freedom to enslaved people in the Union.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 2:45pm
Slavery as the reason for secession in their own words
https://blog.independent.org/2017/08/18/southern-state-seceded-from-the-union-to-protect-slavery/
Slavery
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 2:50pm
The words of the Vice President of the Confederacy
Unfortunately for the revisionists, the vice president of the nonexistent Confederate States of America said:
You didn't read that wrong. That is the Vice President of the Confederacy stating point blank that the only cause for secession was the institution of slavery.
https://portside.org/2013-11-04/absolute-proof-civil-war-was-about-slavery
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 3:14pm
While I agree that the evidence is that slavery was the main cause of the Civil War I think you make too much of these political speeches. Politicians say what is necessary to secure votes and motivate people. Historians look beyond political speech for a deeper understanding of complex situations and issues.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 3:33pm
To support your point, oddly enough, some people claim that the GOP is doing everything because of racism, but you seldom hear politicians give a speech expounding on the virtues of racism and the need to do X Y or Z to reach those racist goals. Could there have been less expressed motivators then and now?
Plus it seems tariffs are making a comeback - a new civil war, or just a global one?
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 3:37pm
I don't think the GOP is doing anything because of racism. Appeals to racism is just a tool they use to get the power to do what they want.
It seems likely that economics had a role in causing the war but ranting about the tariffs wasn't going to motivate southern whites to fight and die in a war. Blatant outspoken racism fired up the white troops.
But the economy has changed. Tariffs mostly hurt the south and helped the north but now they hurt and help some people in every state, more or less. It won't be a civil war. Hopefully we get a democrat in 2020 and we'll avoid a global economic war.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 3:53pm
Fuck every Confederate.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 3:40pm
Good argument. Very convincing. Of course I knew agreeing with you 90% would never be enough. And that you would never discuss the 10% where we disagree.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 3:56pm
So we should fuck 90% of Confederates? Prolly a safe margin. But which 90%?
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 5:26pm
There were not good people on both sides. Confederates fought to keep people enslaved.
Confederates were too racist to consider blacks intelligent enough to fight.
The Union realized that blacks could fight.
Revisionists still try to defend the enslavers.
So yeah, fuck all Confederates.
Edit to add:
The Confederate crackers were so honorable at Fort Pillow.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 5:51pm
Let's go to today: Do you think there are "good people" in the Taliban? Or are they all evil? How about everyone attending Fallwell's University? All evil? Not arguing, just curious, as this would follow the logic of everyone voting for Trump being a racist and the logic of what you are saying on this thread.
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 6:18pm
You have brilliantly summarized the main point of the article and the point PP and I were trying to make. That there were good people on both sides. That was our exact point and your post isn't a strawman at all.
Oh and by the way, by today's standards there were mostly bad people on both sides. One side was just slightly less bad. Virtually every Trump voter has more enlightened views on race than most of the northern soldiers.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 7:07pm
Oh and by the way, by today's standards there were mostly bad people on both sides. One side was just slightly less bad
DING DING DING! BINGO! You get this cultural historian's award!
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 9:21pm
It becomes clear that war, sir, is the answer you are looking for. Sounds a little like the cry that was common after 9/11/01: kill them all!
Still, you do realize that some were just dumb honkies that didn't know how to evade the draft? Just saying. Kind of like calling drafted Viet vets "baby killers", that was really effective.
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 6:03pm
86% of federal money (pre-income tax) came from tariffs paid by the South. If this was not part of their digruntlement, it should have been.
Anyway, the article explains it in much more interesting depth. Of course opinions will differ, and I'm non-commital, but we've heard one version over and over. History is seldom that clean-cut.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 3:34pm
Fuck every Confederate.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 3:39pm
Again just curious: does reading the history of black African slave traders working with white buyers get you equally upset? Or is it just "Confederates" that you loathe? What about Native American tribes continuing to enslave other tribes after the Civil War ended? Does that bother you as much? (A reminder: they're all long dead people. It's history. Sort of like statues made long ago.)
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 10:27pm
I have no idea what the point was of the medium article. The guy who wrote it is described as " Designer, writer, contrarian, photographer, and connoisseur of bourbon."
You cannot get a feel for the history of this country and particularly slavery and racism without reading books by real historians.
Examples:
by NCD on Thu, 09/12/2019 - 8:03pm
Well we post bits here by non-historians all the time. Are we wasting our time? Are historical notes about a separate aspect of the period (whipping) overriding of a topic they don't mention (tariffs, income distribution) or even an era 70 years later?
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 09/13/2019 - 12:29am
You're wasting your time reading the boubon guy if you are truly interested in anything but bourbon.
Whitman's 14 years of research on this book led him to the conclusion that cotton slave camps were the starting point and foundation of American capitalism. In the paperback reprint of the book he provides a debunking of some historians claims he over emphasized the contributions of slavery to American capitalism..
Whitman makes the point the two main misconceptions of slavery are:
1. Southerners - slavery was a disciplined yet humane enterprise done throughout history. It gave the savage races stability and productive lives they might not have otherwise.
2. Northerners - slavery was an archaic unproductive system involving forced labor. Slaves could never produce the output like free labor could, with the incentives there of self initiative and financial gain.
Whitman says both views are false, and presents the historical evidence in his 522 page book.
by NCD on Fri, 09/13/2019 - 1:01am
Yes your posts raise some interesting points but they don't really address the questions raised by posting this article. To what degree if any was economics part of the cause of the Civil War.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 09/13/2019 - 1:27am
Except I never believed these 2 "misconceptions", I don't drink much bourbon, and I posted an article largely on the role of tariffs (plus other interesting anecdotes) in secession, so why don't you go find a historian acceptable to you who spends 14 years and 522 pages on addressing tariffs claims or go enter your own fucking diary and get out of my face?
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 09/13/2019 - 1:30am
WTF is wrong with you PP? Bourbon is a wonderful drink. I think it's just the color of the drink. You're prejudiced against colors.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 09/13/2019 - 3:44pm
Too French. Vivre Britannia!
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 09/13/2019 - 10:14pm
My kneejerk reaction was to comment quickly that "but Bourbon is not French." Because this particular spirit is so 'mercan to its core. But then I looked at what I was actually writing and thought: HAH IT'S ABSURD on its face to say that.So I went to wikipedia to find out the whyfore of the French name and all I found is this:
It's that good ole multi-culti mixing melting pot thing, that's 'mercan!
by artappraiser on Fri, 09/13/2019 - 10:50pm
I read Gunnar Myrdal's "An American Dilemma" as part of forlorn exercise, a group one, to try to conclude-or not-that Graduate Business students could get sufficient benefit from abstract academic investigations of non business subjects to offset the cost -academically- of diverting time and effort down this probable rat hole.
Answer Yes. It sufficiently astonished some of the heavy weights among the faculty that we all got a Distinction. Certainly the only one I ever received.Well probably. And fittingly so since it was my idea and therefore my job to get the damn thing done.
But the more direct pay back occured later when Ralph Bunche showed up at the Yacht Club. By then it was long since he had been part of Myrdal's team on the AD. And to the extent he was known to the Yachties it was as State's hoped for back stage influence at the UN.
A faint hope since the Yachties were not apt to cooperate. Anyway, two members with ties to the department
invited Bunche to lunch (unintendd rhyme )And flocks of the other members stormed the office to surrender their membership cards.
by Flavius on Fri, 09/13/2019 - 10:56am
I had to google and now I understand your comment (sort of):
by artappraiser on Fri, 09/13/2019 - 4:52am
Question : What do you call the dead bodies of Confederates on the battleground at Gettysburgh?
Answer: A good start
There were no good Confederates just like there were no good Nazis at Charlottesville.
Edit to add:
That little difference
https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/05/not-yet-freedom/
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 09/13/2019 - 3:06pm
Your posts are so off topic it's a waste of time to engage. Even more off topic than usual for you.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 09/13/2019 - 3:40pm
Here is a quote @ harvardsquarelibrary. org by Ralph Waldo Emerson, which I just ran across by happenstance, that is suggestive of people in his locale of Concord, MA making the argument that the port of Boston should remain open to the slave trade for the good of the economy:
If it shall turn out, as desponding men say, that our people do not really care whether Boston is a slave port or not, provided our trade thrives, then we may at least cease to dread hard times and ruin. It is high time our bad wealth came to an end. I am sure I shall very cheerfully take my share of suffering in the ruin of such a prosperity, and shall very willingly turn to the mountains to chop wood and seek to find for myself and my children labors compatible with freedom and honor.
Unfortunately there is no context as the site does have a link or footnote (shame on them, being a library and all!) and googling it didn't get me results. But to me it is a good example of how debate in the north could get very complex. "Yankees" ranged allover the place in their opinions on slavery. This example is like debates about interventionism today: should you try to impose your morals on "the other" by force and even go to war over it if necessary or should you continue to trade with them until time changes their ways.
by artappraiser on Sat, 09/14/2019 - 12:39am
Bending off-topic, but reminds there are these microdilemmas, e.g. whether the judge recalled for his light sentence if the Stanford rapist should be allowed to coach girls volleyball, or if a MeToo accusee should appear on TV, but similar career shaming doesn't exist say for politicians who led us into sexed up war or who abused immigrants or stole money from millions - we look for the keys under the streetlamp, not where we lost them. Easier for a flash of morality where the situation's not huge and messy and tied to political tribe. 8'm sure goings on at Walden Pond were more important than Antietam.
BTW, Chareles Dickens' observations on Civil War? Makes a great play-by-play commentator
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 09/14/2019 - 1:08am