MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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Hits of the Day
Colorism in Hip Hop
By rmrd0000 on Fri, 07/20/2018 - 9:56am |Hip Hop has always had a significant amount of colorist. Darker skinned women often need not apply.
For work in Hip Hop videos
https://lisaalamode.com/2017/06/28/kodak-black-comments-black-women-dark/
Hip Hop loves to label black men niggers and belittle dark-skinned women. Predictably, internalizing this pathology can have serious consequences. Here are comments from rapper GlocKKNine regarding black women.
On Wednesday, the popular hip-hop outlet Vlad TV released an interview with GloKKNine, the 17-year-old Orlando, Fla., rapper whose self-released singles have been racking up millions of listens on streaming platforms and YouTube.“I ain’t gon’ lie, I know I’m ugly” GloKKnine explains in the interview. “What he say? ‘I’m Already Black, I don’t need no black bitch’” the rapper continues, quoting lyrics by Kodak Black. He goes on to explain:
GlocKKNine: If I’m fucking with you, I’m black as fuck, right? I’m black as shit ... So I know, if I fuck with a black bitch, we gon have a black-ass baby. I ain’t with that.
Vlad: This is an interesting thing ... So if you have a baby, you don’t want your baby to be the same complexion as you?
GloKKNine: Umm-Umm.
Vlad: Why not?
GloKKNine: This is a dark-ass shade. This bitch ... Hell nah. I can’t ...I can’t have...
The rapper explains that his mother’s complexion is “caramel mocha,” but describes his father as darker than he is, explaining that his skin color is a “once-in-a lifetime thing.” Yet, when reality star Amara La Negra’s comments about colorism in the Latinx community, Mr. KKKNine says it “sounds like some clown shit.”
Here are a couple of lines from one Kodak Black song
“Where them yellow bones? / I don’t want no Black bitch. / I’m already Black. / Don’t need no Black bitch.”
The rapper makes clear that he does not date dark skinned women
https://lisaalamode.com/2017/06/28/kodak-black-comments-black-women-dark/
Amara La Negra speaks out about colorist. GlocKKNine considers this clown shit
Amara remembers dealing with racism and colorism in entertainment since pre-school. At 4, she won a competition that landed her on the the wildly-successful Hispanic variety show, Sábado Gigante. For the six years she was on the show, Amara says she was the only dark-skinned child in the cast and that producers would always place her either way in the back of the stage or smack in the middle "like a bug in the middle of a cup of milk."
The comments about Amara's appearance from people working on the show were constant. Amara's mother was often told her daughter's hair was unmanageable and needed to be permed."And I remember her looking at me and her face ... it was just letting me know that this was the beginning of the struggle," Amara says.
After years of straightening perms, hot combs, and dieting Amara decided she was done policing her body. So she took the stage name Amara La Negra, "love the black woman," and embraced her afro
https://www.npr.org/2018/03/14/592870320/se-que-soy-amara-la-negra-embra...
Colorism exists. Some artists are fighting against it. I don’t think that denigrating oneself by calling each other niggers helps.We are still dealing with internalization of white supremacy.
BTW the word nigger has been taken back as noted by the experience of the Papa Johns guy who was canned for using the word during an internal conference.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/16/opinions/papa-johns-n-word-wont-go-away-holmes/index.html
URL:
https://thegrapevine.theroot.com/dark-skinned-babies-i-aint-with-that-glockkknine-sel-1827634016#_ga=2.224299551.584690061.1531680712-227133732.1521554101
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Comments
Next up, after she solves the skin color problem, hopefully The Queen can point her admirable confidence skills to start taking on the cause of ladies who don't have the same kind of bod as she does.
by artappraiser on Fri, 07/20/2018 - 3:49pm
She is able-bodied and deals with her skin tone better than, say Clarence Thomas
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/17/books/review/Patterson-t.html
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 07/20/2018 - 4:21pm
I just ran across this similar story with a write up by CNN today:
This 11 year old was bullied for her skin color. Now, she owns a successful clothing line
By Elizabeth Elkin and Ben Burnstein, CNN, Updated 5:59 PM ET, Fri July 20, 2018
Note the reporters have quoted an interesting supportive tweet that Snoop Dogg sent the girl. (I for one, am amazed anyone would bully her for her looks, she's incredibly classically beautiful!)
by artappraiser on Fri, 07/20/2018 - 9:02pm
Thx. I was aware of this story. It is inspiring. For some elite clubs in black society, there used to be a paper bag test. If you were darker than the brown paper bag, you did not qualify for membership.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Paper_Bag_Test
White supremacy produced black self-hatred. We see it in the desire for lighter skin and light- skinned women. Hip Hop supports this colorism. Nigger is part and parcel of the self-hatred. Niggers can be killed with no remorse. The only thing nigger Doe’s is provide entertainment for white people. The recent movie “Black Panther” had a cast of dark-skinned actors. There were no niggers in Wakanda. The movie created a sense of pride. In movies like “Friday”, niggers were shiftless and lazy.
You wrote a beautiful piece on Basquiat. Perhaps you were unaware how, when he was in Hawaii, Basquiat responded to being called a nigger.
http://observer.com/2005/03/basquiat-on-the-beach/2/
It is a hateful word meant to do damage. The institution of white supremacy enjoys when blacks call themselves nigger. The sad truth is that many niggers will reject beautiful black women because they have learned to hate themselves.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 07/20/2018 - 9:26pm
Yes I'm quite aware of the historical problems of class rankings by color among people of color both here (including deep dive in the Jack n Jill Club elite world) and in Africa and South America and like, everywhere. I'm more interested in hearing about current developments and attempts at culture change like you started this thread with. I am a strong believer that you cannot change this kind of thing--people's attitudes--through politics or law, you can only protect rights that way. Culture has to be changed by cultural means.
by artappraiser on Fri, 07/20/2018 - 9:44pm
I am not trying to convince anyone. I simply point out the damage done by the term. The Obamas are not niggers. Eric Holder and Loretta Lynch are not niggers. Basquiat was not a nigger.
Edit to add:
Colorism and nigger are tied together by self- hatred. The young black and the black singer were harassed because of skin color. Dark skin color is demonized because of the impact of white supremacy. Bitch is a term used for black women based on self-hatred. Erasing self-hatred would halt the ridicule of dark skin, and the use of nigger and bitch.
Edit to add:
Are there successful cultures who use terms like nigger to describe themselves?
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 07/20/2018 - 10:50pm
you are just so on a different page than I am. sorry I even got involved
I did not address the n word and I wasn't interested in discussing the use of the n word.
yeah of course it's about colonialism going back to the beginning of the new world in the 15th century, OR PERHAPS even earlier doh. I just don't see much use in discussing that on a thread about rappers dealing with skin color aesthetics in the here and now.
I'm sorry there's no one here to fill your need for a certain kind of racist apologist strawman but you're just going to eventually have to get used to the fact that there's no one here at Dagblog like that. It's certainly not going to be me.
by artappraiser on Sat, 07/21/2018 - 2:56am
Why stop with going back only to the 1500's? You always seem to want to go big big picture: racism uber alles as it were, racism is the only topic. But what you don't realize is that your cutoff is arbitrary, too. You wanna get into the colonialist effects of the ancient Roman empire on the self-image and culture of egyptians and celts maybe I'd go there.
by artappraiser on Sat, 07/21/2018 - 3:03am
I'm pretty sure pecking order based on shade of skin color long precedes Columbus - say Cleopatra and millennia before.
I remember the scene in Moorehead's White Nile about Speke(?) describing the scen of the Ugandan king who liked his harem fat, so had them feeding at a trough looking like baby seals or beached whales sucking on straws with some special food. Fashion - skin, weight, height, body type, hair, color & shape of eyes, jewelry, whatever. It's in our blood. Kylie Kenner's a billionaire at 20 over fashion and looks and cosmetics. That's how we swing.
Currently we think a tan look/color, slightly Middle East I'd say, is the best. In the 60's, white skinny Twiggy was one range, along w Factory Girl Edie Sedgwick. From what I recall of Bitches Brew artwork and popular singers then, dark skin was a-ok. Trends change.
(Chinese binding concubines' feet for "beauty" - when did that start? What's the proper Chinese complexion vs the Japanese super-white?)
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 07/21/2018 - 3:20am
Well as to current times, "fat black mama" is a known popular porn category. (Just sayin' and puhleez no questions about how I know this.)
by artappraiser on Sat, 07/21/2018 - 3:43am
Prolly on one of Cohen's tapes, I imagine. Or maybe an undisclosed NRA girl...
Of course from your perch in the Bronx, maybe you see things we don't see. Could you be the mysterious Art Madam?
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 07/21/2018 - 4:21am
Dark- skinned black women are demonized. The two black rappers I note not only speak of skin preference when it comes to dating, they express hatred for self and black women. The treatment of dark-skinned black women is not benign.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 07/21/2018 - 11:34am
Research into skin color has focused on Europeans. There are newer studies that focus on African societies. The foci of genes that determine skin color are being better identified. African genes tend to be older while genes that produce lighter skin hues seen in Europe are newer.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/12/science/skin-color-race.html
Even more fascinating are studies on the Great Migration of blacks from the South to the North indicate that black with more European genes were the first to migrate from the South.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/12/science/skin-color-race.html
Historians were not attached to the genetic studies. It will be interesting to see how or if this genetic diffentiation between blacks in the North and the South played a role in the Colorism that we see today.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 07/21/2018 - 12:30pm
Afterthought: Comes to mind Chris Rock ably deconstructed the whole Daddy, how come I don't have good hair? question from his daughter by making the movie "Good Hair" waaay back 9 yrs. ago.
(Apparently, whites were allowed to go see it in theaters when it was first released. I remember seeing it shown on HBO or Showtime, and there was no warning about white people not being allowed to watch! Oh the shame of people not liking certain inherited features.....used to be nose jobs..)
You want real pain about looks? How about all those psychological studies that say people like people better with with symmetrical facial features, not only are more attracted to them but trust them more etc. There was a girl in my junior high school with an "elephant man" type distortion of her whole head, I used to cry for her at night but I was also absolutely certain the last thing in the world she wanted was pity from someone like me.
How about moving on to discuss: can the blind be colorist? Can they just like tell your color from how you talk?
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 4:45am
p.s. what also comes to mind along the lines of your changing beauty preferences, from "Good Hair", one of the main memes is that the current "ideal hair", which many black women pay a pretty penny for weaves and pieces and wigs is not white hair but Southeast Asian hair, specifically Indian. That Indian hair is the hair that everyone in the hair biz wants the most, the easiest to work with and considered the best quality. And that a lot of it comes not from selling by the women but because of a good luck ritual which many Hindu women in India practice several times in their life of cutting off all their hair
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 5:41am
You respond to the post as if it was a personal attack. The post was about Colorism among current day black Hip Hop artists. They of the ones accused of succumbing to white supremacy. I don’t see where it attacks dagbloggers. I also noted the damage the word nigger does to blacks. The post was not about whites, it was a critique on a subset of the black community.
Two young black men were used as examples of the damage Colorism hides to how some black men view black women, There was no attack on white people. The two black men are present day black artists.
I did note Basquiat’s response to the word nigger. That was not a personal attack. It was an example of the hurt that comes with the use of the word. I don’t understand why my post and responses are so upsetting.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 07/21/2018 - 9:25am
In the brief column about Basquiat in Hawaii, (which was obviously a clip from another, longer article about something), the same person who recounted the racial slur towards him also, apparently, called the person a "redneck". I'll leave it at that, rm.
by barefooted on Sat, 07/21/2018 - 8:05pm
My point is that the word is intended to hurt and denigrate. I think that Colorism and the word nigger at their core are designed to create negative images about black people, I will leave it at that,
Can you describe any other successful culture that denigrates it itself. I don’t know why there is such resistance to such a basic concept. What do you see as benefits of Colorism and using the word nigger?
Edit to add:
My complaints about Colorism and the use of the word nigger focus on the black community. The Basquiat example was to show how the word hurts. Why does a critique of the black community seem to be interpreted as an attack on whites?
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 07/21/2018 - 9:04pm
Ahem ...
First paragraph - so obvious that I don't see why you expect a response.
Second paragraph - oh, please. Who are you talking to?
Your edit to add - specifically your last sentence - I don't know what you mean, though it might turn into an interesting conversation if you frame it more succinctly.
by barefooted on Sat, 07/21/2018 - 11:31pm
I apologize if I misinterpreted your intention. The post was about the self-hatred in the black community that results in the acceptance of Colorism and nigger. I see that as true pathogens. I used the Basquiat example asa means of detailing the hurt the word caused. I sensed a diversion from addressing that negative impact. The arguments now are that nigger is no different than other slurs. I inappropriately read your comment as directing attention away from the harm done by the word.
Two black rappers publicly state that they don’t prefer black women. These black men openly tell us that they hate their black skin and don’t want to produce black skinned offspring. That is alarming.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 5:16am
You know the last thing I wanted was to spend my life with one of these big-haired do-se-do white Southern girls where I grew up, whether fat from donuts and home fries and slurpies or not. Does that make me awful? Aren't there plenty of guys willing to take my place? Where does personal preference come in, or is it the voicing of that preference that's awful?
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 8:02am
Sigh,so there is no difference between big haired white women and the experiences of dark- skinned black women. You cannot be serious.
Here is Ta-Nehisi Coates story of his skin color awakening He was aided by Malcolm.
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/06/dark-girls/240185/
Your hair color story is pretty dismissive of something deeper going on the black community.
Edit to add:
You always have jokes. Why not say the story is not important to to you and move on. Stop pretending that you want to have a serious discussion. I do find the story interesting. Something as simple as a movie with a cast led by dark-skinned black women was enough of a spark to ignite a discussion on Colorism.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/black-panther-is-ready-to-take-dark-skinned-actresses-and-colorism-seriously_us_5a7a090ce4b0d0ef3c0a2049
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 11:57am
The experiences? WTF? I didn't agree to go off on a discussion of the black experience through the ages over every fucking black issue there is, and I didn't discuss the "experiences" of white Southern girls (unless 7/11 is "an experience". You noted "Two black rappers publicly state that they don’t prefer black women." and so a white Southerner (partially) says he doesn't prefer Southern white women. It's directly analogical. So stick to the subject *YOU BROUGHT UP* and quit trying to deflect.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 12:28pm
I am sticking to the subject. You are dismissive. Black men considering themselves ugly and not wanting to have babies with women they attack as bitches is not equivalent to your comments about big hair.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 1:01pm
Well f off, I don't need your equivalence and i'll talk about what I effing want.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 3:16pm
I have no problem with your position. I stand by my position that there is no equivalency between what the black rappers said about dark skinned black women and your point about big hair. I don’t understand why this is even being debated. They are slandering dark skinned black women.
Edit to add:
I do not understand your anger
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 4:33pm
Are you presuming someone who uses the pseudonym "barefooted" is white? Why?
The constant repetitive straw man thing you do is what gets you all the aggravation you get here.
People don't like being used to debate something they weren't saying, they're going to quit the discussion because it's like you're not talking ot them, you're talking to someone you've invented in your head. It's like you didn't read what she said.
Most of us use pseudonyms here. That means: you can't know anything about us except what we say. You have only the words. We have no proof you are Afro-American or male, actually, you could be a white Russian female bot. We presume you are a person of color because you often claim to speak for "the black community," whatever that is. Maybe we shouldn't.
Can you describe any other successful culture that denigrates it itself.
Yes. Jewish comics tell Jewish jokes, Polish comics Polish jokes, Irish tell Irish jokes, Catholics tell priest jokes, etc. Certainly to each other. And to others as well.
Actually, now that I think on it a bit, I think the ability to self-denigrate usually shows confidence that one has finally arrived. Yes, I believe that is the case for both individuals and groups--the ability to self-denigrate is very often a mark of confidence that one no longer needs protection from unfair treatment. That one can mix easily with all kinds of other people of all classes and make fun of one's own background, that's confidence. Confidence that you no longer need to hide in a tribe.
When someone is oppressed and feels hopeless, on the other hand, all kinds of things are taken as insults, even things that are not meant to be insulting, and paranoia can set in.
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 4:18am
If a black person used an unflattering term for a Jewish, Polish, or Hispanic person, they would be condemned. Note Jessie Jackson referring to Jews as Hymies and New York City as Hymietown, or when Michael Jackson used Jew Me in a song “They Don’t Care About Us”.In the days of analog recording, songs containing the slur were removed. In the case of Hispanic stereotypes in comedy, Bill Dana abandoned his “Jose Jimenez” character because of the harm that it was doing.
To say that Polish jokes and nigger jokes are the same is false equivalence. Randall Kennedy author of the book “Nigger” believes that people who have no knowledge of the history of terror that accompanies the word may find it inoffensive.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/n-word-became-atomic-bomb-racial-slurs
I think that the word supports self-hatred and is far different than the “humor” of a Polish joke. I noted above the swift blacklash when blacks used Jewish slurs. Nigger stands alone as being said to be OK. Are people still telling Polish jokes?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 5:01am
you just switched topics, I thought this discussion was about self-deprecation, and this thread was about supposed self-deprecation by blacks.
Jessie Jackson saying "Hymietown" is NOT self-deprecation.
Jerry Seinfeld or Woody Allen or Don Rickles or Larry David saying "Hymietown" would be self-deprecation because it is not at all a secret that they are Jewish, their Jewishness is part of their shtick. They are the type who not only tell self-deprecating Jewish jokes to other Jews, they tell them to everyone who will pay to hear their stuff.
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 5:14am
Jessie used Hymietown. Michael used Jew Me.
Should whites be able to use Nigger?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 5:21am
Why are you asking that question on a thread about blacks dissing their own skin color and discriminating against other blacks because of their color?
Is it too much to ask to focus occasionally on a particular topic, especially one that hasn't been beaten to death?
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 8:31am
My lonely argument is about black self- hatred manifested by Colorism and the word nigger. I asked about other cultures using derogatory terms about themselves. One response suggested that nigger was no different than other terms used by other ethnic groups. I pointed to pushback that Jessie Jackson received for using Hymie and Hymietown. It was not OK for Jackson to use the word but it was OK for Jewish people to use the word. That response seemed to lead directly to the question about use of the word nigger by whites.
Do you feel that the Colorism seen in Hip Hop and reflected by rejection of dark-skinned women is not a problem? If it is a problem, what is your explanation for the self-hatred?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 10:14am
I have chosen to live outside my culture even though I still communicate with my culture quite a lot. Is it "self-hate", rejection, or a more positive "finding what turns me on"?
I don't think there's a simple universal answer. The world is defined by the yin and yang of finding what's new & trendy, and staying with what's known and comfortable. Some will never own a passport, some can't live without one. Some will sleep within their own caste and creed, others are attracted elsewhere, some treat the world's sexual delights as a smorgasbord. There is no particular right way.
That said, hating on others is a strong emotion vs simple preference. On the other hand, I don'tt like to condemn people to only having weak emotions, and I was never much attracted to lukewarm sentiments, even if that sounds contradictory from someone who's rather egalitaritan and accepting of centrist, mixed, not rigidly aligned politics and opinion.
Then there's time. Richard Alpert started addressing his Jewishness later in life after a lifetime exploring drugs and counter-culture and spiritual matters of the soul. Was his neglect a self-hate, or simply a matter of "in its own proper time"?
There's a good trend of teaching kids more acceptance of body type and skin color and differing abilities/disabilities and sexual proclivities, bestowung feelings of self-worth and getting rid of shame, which is great, but we also run the risk of creating a kind of thought-crime prison where we can't posit ourselves outside these carefully defined greater-social-good walls.
Our humor is largely defined around illicitly mischievously sneaking around these walls, and even creating a new more proper set of walls isn't definitive - the system must probe itself, make fun of itself, or it dies or becomes evil.
NWA was funny and edgy when it came out. It's probably not so smart in retrospect, like many of the stupid things I did as a kid. Must we live our adult years deconstructing and feeling remorse for all of our youth, our culture's youth? Because we can perhaps win the Trump war, but "if I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution", spoken by Emma Goldman 100 years ago (and an anthem for lesbian thought/activism once upon a time)
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 3:48am
See below
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 7:52am
I am continually puzzled that:
you don't speak for only yourself, but constantly try to make declarative statements about what a whole bunch of other people think. Not questions as in: could it be that many white women think like this or could it be that many millenials think like that? But declarative statements, like you are a pollster of long time experience
you presume others here are speaking for a whole nother tribe that also thinks all alike instead of just a small group of individuals on a website sharing thoughts about the news because we all think differently and like the input of a few other minds.
Got news for you: all white people don't think alike. All white people are not always all white. My own family has all colors including one just like the Queen of the Night. She's my sister-in-law and an immigrant from Africa. She lived in the E U. before moving to CA. She always looks like a really hot babe, has got super style. She doesn't like her hair and gets different weaves, most often a bob, which I also admire. My hair eastern european wiry coarse hair sucks looks terrible with my features and I wear it mostly all cut off now. I often think I should do what she does.
By the way, she's one member of the family that's not really cool with all of "Afro-American" culture, whatever that is.Doesn't always agree with with her half-Afro-American stepdaughter, my niece, for that very reason. Not the least of which there is a big educational difference between the two.
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 5:04am
I supply links to support my opinion. Obviously, my point of view on the use of the word nigger and my opinion on Colorism are not the popular view. I bean by criticizing two popular rap artists.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 5:23am
Longer piece on Cappadona/time in Hawaii (w link this time)
http://observer.com/2005/03/basquiat-on-the-beach/
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 07/22/2018 - 12:52am
Nice.
by barefooted on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 1:58am
PP, I rarely listen to songs containing profanity. I was pumped when Black Panther hit the screen.I am pleased that the sister in the film, is getting her own comic book series. I think it will be enjoyed by girl geeks as well as guy geeks. I enjoy the fact that there is access to research being done on topics like black pioneers in. There is also scientific research into African genes as noted in Newsweek. There is joy in being alive today.
Then there is the self-hatred in much of Hip Hop. The Colorism has been there for decades. Calling black women bitches has been there for decades. If white women were the targets of the venom, music companies would have refused to produce entertainment where black men were verbally abusing white women. There was a comment that it was a comment that suggested Jewish slurs were OK if they were spoken by Jewish people. I was surprised by the attack when I asked why it would be OK for whites to use the term nigger. There appeared to be a double standard.
I stand by my statement that there is no equivalence between calling a black woman a bitch, saying that you don’t want her dark-skinned baby, and feeling that your dark skin makes you ugly, and your statement about big hair. I simply don’t accept the comparison.
People see use of the word nigger as a powerful taking back of a word. Colorism is the visual response to the word nigger. Were some see bold entertainment, I see Bo Jangles and Stephen Fetchit. I proudly stand outside accepted modern culture.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 8:12am
My old big-haired girlfriend called - says she's gonna kick your lily ass as soon as she gets some time off chucking hogs at the meat packer's.
“I was raped by a doctor. Which is, you know, so bittersweet for a Jewish girl.” - Sarah Silverman
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 8:21am
Still no equivalence
https://thegrapevine.theroot.com/dark-skinned-babies-i-aint-with-that-glockkknine-sel-1827634016
I don’t see how this is point of debate
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 8:33am
YNBYWU
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 11:21am
I’ll wait for the English translation.
I still do not see what point you are arguing.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 11:34am
"You're not black, you wouldn't understand" - that warm welcoming phrase for dialog, debate and mutual understanding.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 1:35pm
This ^^^^^^. Thank you.
The absurdity of that attitude coming up often enough at a place like dagblog is what especially slays me. Because: apart from like Wolraich, Maiello and Cardwell, who have published photos here or on the net, in interaction nobody really knows what skin color users here have. It is all about written communication. between pseudonymous parties. Which is supposed to freeing, supposed to let people communicate without couching their words. Got me thinking about how back in the old bulletin board days of bloggery, it was much more common to create a sock puppet to do the straw man thing, but that's a whole nother meta issue.
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 1:52pm
I don’t think that either you or PP are acknowledging the fact that the two young black men hate their skin color.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 1:57pm
We acknowledged that repeatedly, including noting that type of thing likely goes back thousands of years, as human habits and prejudices are wont to do.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 2:14pm
Um, we look at the articles you post. What's beyond me is why if you don't get an immediate "amen! this article speaks the truth" call and response from anyone who comments, when someone wants to move on to talk about a point of nuance or something related that the article inspired, you immediately make them into a straw man to literally and figuratively argue black vs. white.
Commenters here on news articles for the most part like the opposite of POLEMIC. People who like polemic and want to do political activism here use the "blog now" function, ever notice? Not the "In the News" section. It's like: analysis vs. polemic sections. But you never post a blog, you just surreptitiously try to force people to argue the points you want to make by posting news articles cherry picked to fit the blog in your head, when instead you should be making in a blog post with that. Articles which inspire others in a way different from your own obvious purpose in posting them. This is what makes it so frustrating. I.E. two people find something they read inspiring enough to share poetry to try to grok what it's doing to their head, and you come around basically yelling "which side are you on, man, which side are you on?" You want polemics, do a blog post, see what you get. Using other's writing and reporting to surreptitiously push your memes, expect pushback, news junkies trying to do analysis don't like being forced into your political frame.
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 2:28pm
I keep telling you that I am disagreeing with a point. You divert. You gave an example where a Jewish slur is OK if it comes from a Jewish person. Jesse Jackson is forbidden to say the same thing. I ask how that relates to whites using nigger. That is not a straw an argument. That is a question. I’m not yelling.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 2:45pm
wrong. I said upthread I didn't want to talk about the n world issue and that what interested me is the self-deprecation issue. ANYONE with half a brain can see for themselves that at that point of mentioning Jackson/Hymietown you totally switched from the self-deprecation topic to name calling another ethnic group. I didnt want to talk about the latter. What has interested me in all these stories you posted is the self-confidence issue.
You want to talk about something else, have at it, just don't use me for your straw man when you do. Too many people of different types here all see you doing this, and often. If you really are interested in convincing someone of something, anything, it should be clear by now that you are going about it the wrong way. I would note Cardwell writes on race here and doesn't seem to have the same problem you do.
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 3:01pm
You bring up Danny who is an excellent writer. Count the numbers.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 3:01pm
It does seem that you don’t understand the difference between a joke and self-hatred.
BTW, the phrase is “it’s a black thing, you wouldn’t understand. Earliest origin was in “Victims of Democracy: Malcolm X and the Black Revolution” by Eugene Victor Wolfenstein published in 1981.
https://www.amazon.com/Victims-Democracy-Malcolm-Black-Revolution/dp/0520039033/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1532367952&sr=8-1
I think that you are confirming that you don’t get it. The two young black men hate their own skin color. Why is that so hard to understand?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 1:55pm
I gave a white analogy. Like most analogies, it's not perfect, but seemed enough to spur wider consideration of "self" or "own culture" hatred (partially to spice up a ho-hum summer retread). But as usual, you don't do subtlety - your way or the high way.
You know, every woman who looks in a mirror is typically practicing vicious self-critique. Not just skin color, but everything. 2 dumb male ass crack rappers do it in an idiotic, clueless way, and that's a big deal? There are billions of dumbfucks out there, white, black, orange. Some with a lot of money and fame. And yeah, rappers have seldom been known to top the Darwin's Best of the Best list. For some "dumb as a bag of rocks" insults rocks. Leave it at that.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 2:16pm
It is more than two guys doing self-reflection. Their music is heard by and influences many.Its not them staring in the mirror, it is them casting negative reflections to others. You downplay a real phenomenon.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 2:36pm
People saying outrageous ignorant things to become rich and famous - why I hadn't noticed. A trend, really?
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 2:42pm
Yes with serious consequences.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 2:46pm
A joke, son - ah say it was a joke, a knee-slapper - Sen. Foghorn Claghorn (from Tennessee)
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/23/2018 - 3:00pm
I don't follow hip hop much, but it's clear that in fine art marketing, dark skin is the new eye candy, like with this tweet, just one example of many I've been seeing lately It's near impossible to find the photos illustrating the tweet at the link, which are no doubt works of art that one of the exhibitors is bringing for the show; they're just being used to attract the viewer in a feed. Because: dark skin is considered hot.
by artappraiser on Sat, 07/28/2018 - 2:25pm
I don’t think one tweet fully addresses the issue. Most reviews of the subject conclude bias against dark skin continues.
Teen Vogue on dark skinned actresses
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/hollywoods-colorism-problem-cant-be-ignored
BET on dark skinned models
https://www.bet.com/style/beauty/2018/03/13/BlackLikeMe1.html
Black Panther stood out because it went against the dark skin bias in Hollywood
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/black-panther-is-ready-to-take-dark-skinned-actresses-and-colorism-seriously_us_5a7a090ce4b0d0ef3c0a2049
Psychological research noting bias against dark skin
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-bad-is-black-effect/
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 07/28/2018 - 3:04pm
Re: Can you describe any other successful culture that denigrates it itself? upthread Sat, 07/21/2018 - 9:04pm
Here's a good 'splainer:
A Schlemiel in the Park
Aug 6, 2018 @ SCHLEMIEL THEORY blog The Place Where the Laugh Laughs at the Laugh
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/06/2018 - 11:06pm
You really can't pass without mentioning the Beastie Boys, can you? The ancient ritual of fighting for your right to party? btw, I was curious reading Dylan's chronicles that he doesn't seem to care about his partial Jewish roots - his background seems to be a Minnesota protestant culture and that's what he identifies. Which is fine with me either way - just I'm more used to seeing a little drop defining much more identification. But Dylan's a road warrior first in any case, even with his born again phase.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 3:05am
just now on Twitter ran across far mo better on the Jewish self-deprecation front, not so refined as it were:
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 4:43am
Why jew do the voodoo that jew do so well? I'm afraid all yhis material's been mined deeply by Mel Brooks and a myriad of predecessors. Half a hebe Harley can hardly compete, much less Yoda late he who...
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 4:54am
BTW, to non-New Yorkers, New Yorkers are DeNiro/Joe Pesci and Sandra Bernhard. Everything else is just talk.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 5:03am
I'm not comfortable at all that DeNiro fits the bill. The other two seem quite correct.
Look, he could just as easily represent Boston or Vegas.He is geographical, that's for sure--one would not align him with say, L.A.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 10:07am
De Niro/Pesci is an amalgam, plus De Niro's played a Jewish gangster among his Italian roles. And done a bad musical with Liza Minelli even. I could pick John Leguizamo but he's too obscure and nice. I'm happy to consider someone else in the in-your-face totally obnoxious vein like that Michael Maiello fellow, but they have to be iconic. Like the Beasties...
https://youtu.be/07Y0cy-nvAg
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 11:19am
How about these guys? Certainly couldn't be LA or Boston, and I shudder to think Las Vegas...
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 12:31pm
Hah, definitely belongs in my "appropriation in action" meme.
Surprised to see the rebbes have caught up on assigning new kinda careers for earned income.
It's not just the music, but the once sinful electric guitars, that they are playing them, not just selling them to goys.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 11:23pm
Let me make sure that I understand the argument. Woody Allen’s movies are characters are no different than music that objectifies black women and celebrates maiming or killing niggers?
Even Snoop Dogg is trying to dig his way out.
https://www.pulse.ng/communities/religion/snoop-dogg-responds-to-christians-for-hating-on-gospel-album-id8205359.html
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 8:24am
I bothered to write this as an intro to the comment:
Re: Can you describe any other successful culture that denigrates it itself? upthread Sat, 07/21/2018 - 9:04pm
to make clear that it was in reference to that question of yours and nothing else.
It's actually not an "argument" at all. It's an attempt to offer an answer to that question. Your desire to make everything an argument, to seek for argument intent when it is not there when the commenter is merely offering input, is incredibly frustrating and makes it unpleasant to discuss anything with you. You seem to want to spin whatever someone says into an enemy force to the intent you had when you posted something.. There seems to be no participation you like except "amen, rmrd! nothing more needs to be said".
This is why I suggested the blogging option. You don't really seem to want "discussion", you seem to want debate with the perimeters of the debate defined by you.
The Snoop Dogg article strikes me as interesting but it is about criticism of an artist's "appropriation" from a specific sub-culture, not about the things the rest of this thread was discussing. Part of the whole deal of creating art is dealing with criticism and some people not liking it for whatever reason, that's as natural a situation as can be no matter what the criticism is. It's very common when an artist changes styles. And changing styles is what artists always want to do, they don't want to keep doing the same things over and over.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 9:56am
I don’t see Woody Allen movies as denigration, I see them as comedy and satire. I see actual denigration in some hip hop. If hip hop artists spoke about Jewish people in the manner they talk about black people, it would be considered antisemitic. I am disagreeing that Woody Allen represents denigration of Jewish culture.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 9:56am
Self-denigration was the sub-topic. So you are correct that if people outside the "self" do it, it is not seen as the same thing, that's why it says "self"
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 9:58am
Hip hop is definitely not contained. Much of it has become unhealthy despite the beat.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 10:29am
I would just point out that Tipper Gore definitely wasn't fond of all rock n' roll.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 10:58am
You personally find no difference between black women being called bitches and whores, and black men referred to as niggers,and other music forms?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 11:18am
Wow, that sounds like a good thesis topic. For someone with too much time on their hands. Right up therewith "is it worse to be called 'skank' or 'lezzie'" and other eternal philosophical questions.
BTW, yeah, Woody Allen habitually slams/makes fun of/satirizes Jews and Jewish habits. Actually I thiught his whole persona was a self-parody of a particular Jewish type, even though it's himself, the scrawny nervous self-questioning schlemiel.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 11:27am
I am compared to the “good” blacks, etc. and am not supposed to take offense. The core of the discussion is the impact of Colorism and language has a positive or negative effect. If it’s just art, say so.
Edit to add:
The.question was in response to the Tipper Gore/Rock and Roll comment.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 11:54am
Billy Gibbons addressed this important issue back before Tipper's time...
"I been bad, I been good, there was Texas, Hollywoooooddd, I ain't asking for much..."
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 12:28pm
If I did have an opinion on that and voiced it, wouldn't you berate me for being a whitey sticking my two cents in where it doesn't belong? (I believe you've said straight out more than once that you don't care what I think. So forgive me for thinking that a trick question as well.)
AGAIN, MY ONLY POINT: public self-deprecation seems to appear in cultures once they feel confident and safe in a society. It could therefore be a sign that they no longer feel they lack any power.
Edit to add: You seem to suggest that hip hop needs policing. The Tipper Gore reference was not facetious. Who's gonna be your Tipper Gore? Isn't it kind of ridiculous to think rmrd and likeminded friends can affect what such an old, large and broad genre is approved to do? A rating system will help? Puhleez. If it will sell, someone's gonna do it. It it didn't sell, so few will do it that no one will know about it. Artists have freedom of speech in this country. It's one thing to report on what's going on and disapproving, it's another to think a cry (on Dagblog,. no less) that it needs to change is going to make any difference. I am textbook ACLU on this type of thing, nothing else makes much sense if you've studied the history of art as long as I have.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 11:42pm
If what you claim about hip hop artists practicing colorism is still true, then it strikes me that they are way behind the eight ball on where mass pop culture is going on that, if the newly crowned Miss America for 2019 is any indicator:
Photos: Nia Franklin wins Miss America title
I checked: judges were 5 white, 2 black, all with mass pop culture experience: former boxer and TV host Laila Ali, radio personality Bobby Bones, country music artist and reality star Jessie JamesDecker, music producer and former American Idol judge Randy Jackson, news anchor Soledad O’Brien, Dry Bar founder Alli Webb, and music icon Carnie Wilson.
and that's without even getting into how she got to be Miss New York.
by artappraiser on Mon, 09/10/2018 - 7:46pm
It might sound like an old man comment but that genre has clearly deteriorated from the days of A Tribe Called Quest, Black Star, House of Pain, etc. It appeals to the lowest common denominator and there is a general antisocial zeitgeist to hip-hop/rap that's not really good. Also, "mumble rap" sort of demonstrates that most rappers now aren't really that in to it the way someone like Busta Rhymes was.
Of course, I know how much glorification of ghetto life was in 1990s/2000s hip-hop but there was at least something authentic about it.
by Orion on Mon, 02/15/2021 - 11:37am
The difference in social message was clear when John Legend criticized L'il Wayne.
L'il Wayne said Trump was OK
L'il Wayne was, to be honest, angling for a pardon.
The other joke is has anyone seen Ice Cube
Cube told us that he convinced Trump to heavily invest in the Black community
Edit to add:
Interesting to note colorism is still a hot topic in hip-hop
https://www.vice.com/en/article/4ad5pw/is-hip-hop-ready-to-address-its-colorism-problem-danileigh-yellow-bone
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 02/15/2021 - 12:43pm