MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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If Not Pelosi, Who? The Question Hovers Over a Simmering Rebellion
By artappraiser on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 7:41pm |
URL:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/18/us/politics/nancy-pelosi-house-speaker-challenge.html
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Comments
I like that euphemism--"the customs of a House Democratic caucus." To put it more bluntly, there's a reason Democrats lack alternative candidates for Speaker. Pelosi and her allies have engineered the caucus hierarchy to keep younger challengers from positions of power.
by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 10:30pm
Is this a real accusation with backing evidence, or one of these "the DNC stole the election from us because we should be winning" type statements?
Right now we have a presidential crisis that needs to be resolved before Trump thugs flip the Constitution somehow and find him a 2nd term. While I'm happy to have new blood in Congress stirring things up, as long as there's a tarantula in the White House, I don't give a damn that some youngsters think now's the time for a power play (and ine youngster is 67 or so). Yeah yeah, the Machiavellian Nancy plays well in any case. But impeach Trump, continue the grassroots brushfire, find a giod cintender fir 2020, and *then* launch our power struggle. Or must Dems always be stupidly suicidal?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 12:12am
The point is that we shouldn't be in this position where Pelosi is the only hope. She's 78, has led the caucus for 16 years, and hasn't even groomed a successor. Why is that?
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 10:49am
Coulda, should, woulda - I don't know - maybe she just assumed enough people would rise up without a big mentoring process.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 1:28pm
I can't say I've paid close attention to this over the decades but isn't that normal behavior? Members with many years of experience take the leadership positions. I don't recall Tip O'Neill relinquishing his leadership position to make room for younger members. So why should we expect Pelosi to?
by ocean-kat on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 1:17am
With a new generation of female reps, it might be a good time for Pelosi to teach them the ropes, mentoring so to speak, before buggering off into retirement, which I can't imagine is too far in the future. I've yet to figure out what the goal of the "dump Nancy" movement is, except possibly a Trojan Republican attack in disguise - instead of consolidating Congressional wins, we're going to self-flagellate.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 1:24am
It would have been a good time 8 years ago. Pelosi clearly isn't interested in mentoring any potential challengers, or she would have done so already. So how does one "encourage" the incoming Speaker to look to the future of the caucus? Pressure.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 10:54am
Tip O'Neill retired at 74 and was succeeded by former Majority Leader Jim Wright, age 64. Former Majority Whip Tom Foley became Majority Leader, age 57.
The top three Democrats today are 78, 79, and 78, with no apparent plans to retire.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 10:35am
Perhaps someone 45 could simply work harder? It's not like Nancy's cutting up challengers with bone saws.Some idiot like Tulsi Gabbard managed to get enough news cycles despite her weird policy mix/GOP fandom. It's not like Beto or Ocasio-Cortez are committing acts of rocket science - it's hard to see why we don't have more up-and-comers.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 3:16pm
retweeted by Haberman:
by artappraiser on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 10:37pm
I want a Dem who will pass free college now, stop the wars now, rejoin the Paris Agreement and cut off Isreal. Or my voat for Jill Stein will be wasted.
by NCD on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 11:53am
Shorter NCD: Anyone who doesn't back Pelosi is an illiterate, naive wingnut.
Convincing argument
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 12:03pm
...Straw man attack..!! Not a good argument..!
by NCD on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 12:09pm
The progressive revolution will have to be delayed until 2020, with a Dem controlled Senate and House, and President. In the meantime, a veteran pro at tying up McConnell and the GOP is best for the Dems. If Dems win big in 2020, new effective leadership, yes, to act radically and fast.
Ocasio-Cortez has figured this out. Patience for now, experience. There will be no "real change" the average citizen will notice in their life for now because of a Dem House.
The lefty base will have to show up in force in 2020 and realize that now having the House alone is a good check on the GOP,..... not a blank check for every progressive wish to come true.
by NCD on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 1:12pm
You've got it backwards. It doesn't take much expertise to thwart the GOP Senate. Any illiterate wingnut could do it. You simply don't pass their bad bills. Not passing legislation is easy. Passing legislation, on the other hand, requires a lot more expertise, but that's mostly academic right now, since the Senate will block whatever the House passes anyway. So when we really need parliamentary expertise isn't 2019, it's 2021, at least if Democrats capture the Senate and White house. So they better start grooming someone now because I sure as hell don't want to be having this argument about lacking alternatives when Pelosi is 80.
Where we really need expertise in 2019 is the committees because those are the folks that will be running the investigations.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 1:27pm
In theory Michael. But too often it seems there's just enough conservative democrats willing to vote with the republicans. Maybe it's just spin but Pelosi gets credit from a lot of sources for keeping the democrats united.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 2:42pm
Dissenting votes can be a big problem when:
a) The majority party wants to pass legislation
b) The minority party wants to block legislation
But it's not an issue when the majority party wants to block legislation because only the Speaker can call for a vote. So even if Republicans corral enough renegade Democrats to vote for some piece of conservative legislation, they can't get it to the floor without the Speaker's approval. (There are some backdoor exceptions, but it's extremely difficult.) We can see a similar situation right now in the Senate. A bipartisan majority supports the Criminal Justice bill, but McConnell refuses to hold a vote.
I agree with you that Pelosi's strength has been her ability to enforce caucus unity (mainly though her control of the purse strings), but that's much less critical now then it was in 2008 when Democrats controlled the WH and Senate.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 3:13pm
As a follow-up, one might ask, what is important now? Investigating Trump of course, but that's a function of the committees. Impeaching Trump will also be important, but if the evidence is compelling enough for a super-majority in the Senate to convict, the House won't have any trouble getting simple majority to impeach.
To my mind, what's most important now besides restraining Trump is building national momentum for 2020, and Pelosi is not well-suited for that. Unfortunately, I don't think we have much alternative at this point.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 3:21pm
And why exactly is she "not well-suited for that"? what did she do wrong this time?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 4:29pm
Two reasons, first Pelosi's a consummate insider--the kind of politician who's better behind the scenes than in front of a camera. She's not broadly popular or inspiring. I'd put her in the same bucket as Mitch McConnell, another not-so-charismatic insider who doesn't draw crowds.
But though McConnell doesn't drive votes himself, he has deftly pivoted to right, embracing tactics and policies that resonate with the Republican base. Pelosi seems more out of touch. Instead of embracing or courting the left's newfound enthusiasm, she resists it. That's laudable if you're a No Labels centrist, but it's not a winning formula for increasing turnout or attracting new voters.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 6:34pm
Pelosi "not a winning formula for increasing turnout or attracting new voters."
July, 2012:
Nancy Pelosi’s Tireless Obamacare Push Vindicated by Supreme Court Ruling
She ramrodded the health-care act through Congress and was confident the Supreme Court would uphold it, says Eleanor Clift.
October, 2018
The fight over healthcare, particularly the Affordable Care Act, is playing a major role in the US midterm elections as voters worry about spiralling costs and coverage of pre-existing conditions.
November, 2018:
Pelosi urges Dems to 'push' health care message day before midterms.
Election Day, NBC:
Voters were highly concerned about health care, according to preliminary exit polls on Tuesday, with more citing it as their top concern than the economy or any other issue — the first time in at least a decade that has happened.
by NCD on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 7:47pm
You're playing your own agenda, not reality. 2018 was win largely by woemn and diversity, but not necessarily "the left", which I assume you mean "the Bernie left". AOC's great for NYC, some urban areas elsewhere. Beto ran a great campaign (except possibly a mistake not targeting Republican centrists *at all*), but with a ton of money and an energetic youthful but mature stage presence, he couldn't overcome a weaseldick that few like. That's Texas (not Chinatown) still. Claire McCaskill (sp?) lost in half-southern Missouri despite pivoting hard to the right, and her audience wanted more to the right, not more AOC.
But I'm not sure I see Pelosi that centrist on healthcare or abortion/planned parenthood or a number of other issues. I think Stacey Abrams is a cool, methodical, well-equipped player pushing core issues, not a firebrand - and I think she matches Pelosi quite well, except maybe better on the stump by necessity. Pelosi seems well-suited for the group that swept out Orange County's once GOP stringgold. But AOC seems fine with Pelosi, so I don't even understand the issue except "change for change's sake", which I'd rather replace with "winning and unity and teamwork for next generation's sake".
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 9:12pm
I think the left-center-right distinctions cloud the issue. Fundamentally, today's Democratic Party is too small to achieve its agenda, whatever that agenda may be. Over the past quarter century, it has controlled both branches in Washington for only 2 years and suffered tremendous erosion in the states. To rebuild a durable Democratic majority that can pass serious legislation, the party needs to grow. You grow a party by converting opposition voters, activating apathetic voters, or recruiting the youth. Pelosi is not a grower. She doesn't appeal to wavering Republicans and independents, doesn't animate apathetic Democrats, and doesn't attract the young. Most significantly, she's not a change agent who seeks to lead the party in new directions that will help it grow; she's a guardian of the status quo.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 11:20am
There were women, ethnic minorities, and young people encouraged to come out and vote. Democrats won in unexpected areas. The electoral map looks bleak for Trump in 2020. Democrats never get the majority of the national vote in Presidential elections. They get enough whites and minorities to be competitive. There are likely more Democratic leaning Independents than Republican leaning Independents. Auntie Maxine and Elizabeth Warren can do recruiting, along with Kamala Harris and a slew of newly elected Democrats.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 11:41am
My point is not about Donald Trump or GOTV tactics, it's about how Democrats need to rebuild an enduring majority that will enable them to dominate Washington and the states in the long run--not just brief periods after people become fed up with the Republican president. Part of that strategy will likely include mobilizing Latino and African-American communities where turnout is typically low, but it will take much more than that.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 11:57am
Makes sense if you believe that a nationwide, rural/urban "wavering, unanimated, apathetic young majority" exists, who require that lefty messiahs immediately emerge and lead them into a 2020 "new directions" promised land where progressives control everything.
Facts say the Affordable Care Act was the most progressive legislation to pass in decades, Pelosi pushed it through, and health care was the top issue for voters this election, see above. Ergo, she is likely the best to protect and expand government investment and involvement in healthcare.
by NCD on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 12:13pm
I don't know if you slept through the last 3 weeks when Dems regained the House and a number of governor seats. Most Senate seats open were Dem, so gains weren't expected there. With impeachment and a steady string of convictions in the works, one can imagine the GOP largely gutted by 2020. The NRA's funding is way way down. Many of the voter disenfranchising tactics are finally being successfully challenged. And yes, many new women and minorities successfully entering politics - mostly on the Democratic side.
I don't recall a period of my life when the Speaker of the House was supposed to animate the electorate - frm LBJ to Tip O'Neill to whoever I'm forgetting (Carl someone..?), their job was to knock heads and twist arms. And be hated and be a magnet for scorn from the other side. The GOP didnt think Newt Gingrich and Tom DeLay were supposed to be liked.
I mean, just 2 years ago you were promoting a grumpy 72-year-old non-Democrat white dude as savior of the party even though he had trouble winning primaries, and now you're going to throw your lot in with someone yet-to-bre-named just to unseat an arguably successful female caucuser on the heels of a big election win because she seems too old? I'm searching for a thread of logic, aside from "just disgruntled".
Let's try this - Obama put DWS in charge of the DNC, yet more people blame Hillary than Obama for that fiasco. Obama put Eric Holder in charge of the DoJ, but he's better known for Fast and Furious than fighting against draconian voter suppression and anti-abortion laws. His "let's look forward" approach let the GOP wrap their economic collapse around his neck. I don't know why we keep running around blaming the wrong culprit. And by that, I dont mean to overcondemn Obama - he possibly played things the best he could with the money and racism and conservative sentiment working against him while trying to make practical fixes in a global collapse. But he also shut down the grassroots movements like MiveOn and co-opted them into an "Obama #1" PAC that did nothing to build up the party for 8 years. So why you want to pick on Nancy?
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 12:18pm
Easy tiger, you're confusing me with some other illiterate, naive wingnut. I haven't "thrown my lot in" with any Speaker candidate, named or unnamed, and indeed I said upfront that Democrats have no alternative to Pelosi at this time. Nor did I ever regard Bernie Sanders as the Democrats' savior or even a strong presidential nominee.
All I wrote was that I'm frustrated that we have no alternative to Pelosi, and I blame her for failing to groom a successor. You pressed me to explain my concerns about Pelosi's leadership, so I did. And for that, I'm accused of pushing some fantasy left-wing agenda and worshipping Bernie Sanders. Don't bucket me, bro.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 2:24pm
Presumably I wasted buckets of time over 2015-2016 misunderstanding whatever you were driving at.
Even now. " Pelosi and her allies have engineered the caucus hierarchy to keep younger challengers from positions of power." - that's a lot stronger than "she didn't groom a successor" if my English still functions.
I respoded to Ramona I believe in 2013 that I thought the odds were against Hillary being physically or politically viable as a candidate in 2016 - but lo and behold, there wasn't anyone else - and I include Bernie. Did she do evil and kneecap everyone? or was there just no new blood? again, the DNC didn't help. But was Pelosi supposed to override the head of her party and the DNC to put elections in place? Hoyer was an "understudy" and I guess held on too long. Rahm Emanuel was a rising star in the House who went into Obama's cabinet and then became mayor.
Anyway, I don't know if Pelosi mentored anyone or whether it mattered. I do think she's doing what she's doing well enough to stay put a couple years.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 3:44pm
I think you're severely underestimating the number of illiterate, naive wingnuts out there. I'm sure some of them back Pelosi.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 12:41pm
Marcia Fudge ended her challenge in the race for Speaker. Pelosi promised her a chairmanship. Fudge endorsed Pelosi.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/marcia-fudge-endorses-nancy-pelosi_us_5bf48d6de4b0771fb6b3ab06
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 7:50pm
So it's over?
I know Sinema (D), just elected, Senate, AZ, was previously in the House, voted for Obamacare, and yet touted her vote against Pelosi as Dem leader. Whose major accomplishment was Obamacare.
Needless to say, this chicanery was not to excite the far left voters, if there are any in this state, but to immunize against GOP attacks that might sway the fickle uninformed fence sitters.
by NCD on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 8:57pm
Cynical me notes that none of the vocal Pelosi opponents threw their hats into the ring. Seth Moulton did not get unanimous support for replacing Pelosi at a townhall.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-massachusetts-moulton-faces-criticism-protests-over-challenge-to-pelosi/2018/11/20/fcc675f8-ecba-11e8-96d4-0d23f2aaad09_story.html?utm_term=.13961d443b7b
A Politico article notes that you can’t beat somebody with nobody. Pelosi opponents struggle to find a leader.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/12/pelosi-speaker-challenger-democrats-house-982943
Black women are pissed they are not in leadership positions. Fudge got a chairmanship by “opposing” Pelosi. Barbara Lee supports Pelosi. Lee is running to chair the Democratic Caucus.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/23/barbara-lee-house-democrats-735616
Lee appeared on AM Joy and made clear that she wants to see black women in leadership positions. Lee praised Fudge, called her an excellent leader when Fudge chaired the CBC. Lee made clear that she supported Pelosi. Fudge allowed her self to be “used”. She came away with a chairmanship. Lee expects a chairmanship as well. This was Politics 101.
https://www.msnbc.com/am-joy/watch/rep-barbara-lee-on-black-women-deserving-leadership-roles-in-the-democratic-party-1374213699994?v=raila&
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 9:25pm
"The Left" has shifted from "anyone but Hillary" to "anyone but Nancy", a useless strategy that which happily AOC hasn't bit into. I don't even think this group of mostly guys even know what they want, rebels without a cause nor much passion and competwnce. Fortunately "The Left" doesn't seem to ne an actual The Left, so we're all cool, left, center, maybe even partial-right as the GOP implodes.
Actually I'm happy like many others to redefine "centrism" and left and what-not - terms are quite stale, while what new women especially are bringing to the table arn't.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 9:30pm
And Pelosi was very embracing and tolerant of those who did what they had to do, including "attack Nancy" and providing some cohesion among a party not known for cohesion.
For example, the Million Woman March coalition is falling apart due to some tone deaf idiotic support for Farrakhan that supporters can't seem to paper over or even want to paper over. Pelosi's pretty good at not letting that happen, not getting sidetracked into the self-destructive and unwinnable.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 11/20/2018 - 9:27pm
Farrakhan led the Million Man March. Black men didn’t care what the public thought, they said that the march was about family unity, community unity, and adoptions. They cowed the media in similar fashion to the way Conservatives run roughshod over MSM.
The Women’s March let the media control the message. The only option now is to ditch Farrakhan. Farrakhan expects to be abandoned. Being rejected adds to his mystique among his followers. The Nation of Islam will continue to work in the community. You tell the public that the break with Farrakhan is hard because of the work he does in the community. You lament that Progressive organizations aren’t filling the void.
Edit to add about Farrakhan.
Farrakhan is an anti-Semite. He is vile. He is rejected. He expects to be rejected. Farrakhan is criticized. Trump tells his supporters tat George Soros is evil. A man attacks a synagogue because he views Jews as a problem. Trump’s Jewish daughter and son-in-law remain silent as Soros comes under attack. Trump says that tiki-torch carrying men shouting “Jews will not replace us” and “Blood and Soil” are good people. Trump is vile. Trump is an anti-Semite. No Farrakhan follower attacked Jews
Steve King is a white supremacist. He was re-elected to Congress.
DeSantis appears at white supremacist rallies. He is elected Governor of Florida.
Kemp suppresses black votes and is elected Governor in Georgia
The Republican candidate for Senator in Mississippi jokes about lynching and voter suppression. She is comfortable wearing a Confederate hat.
Nikki Haley wanted the Confederate flag to remain on state grounds in South Carolina until businesses force her to take it down.
Tamika Mallory has affection for Farrakhan. She is criticized. She must be punished.
We are told that we can find good people among those who voted for the Republicans above.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 12:03am
rmr
Millions of people voted for Trump.
Some of them made stupid, as best, remarks which you quote above.Some, not millions.
You say "we are told we can find good people among those who voted for the
Republicans above." Yeah,among those ,less bad , who perhaps are unemployed and
think Trump will help them get a job. And think that the stupid people don't represent them-and they
don't care what they're up to.
Since you quote only those who are quoted making stupid remarks yes you
probably won't find good people standing in the crowd saying stupid things.
But go to the election and talk to them.The pollsters finding different degree
commitment and so would you.
Experiment. Try the others and see what you'll find out. I try,
Have I found any last -time - Republicans who've told me they'll switch.
No.I wish I had.
But I've found some who have hesitantly said that maybe they made a mistake.
See what you find.!
by Flavius on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 1:19am
Interesting points and graph about "swinging" here and here. And then there's this. sorta following up on that. Racial and other demographics: who knew it was so complicated?
by artappraiser on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 1:32am
Democrats took seats in unexpected places. Analysis of the election will tell us if Republican voters switched or if Independents provided the difference. Analysis of 2016 indicates race was more important than economics in casting a vote for Trump. The Republican Senate candidate in Mississippi needed to read from a pad two issue an apology. She needed stacks of notes to get through the debate.
She happily wore a Confederate cap at Jefferson Davis’ museum. She said this was the best part of Mississippi history. She is incapable of representing all of Mississippi
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/11/20/1814247/-Republican-who-made-lynching-joke-has-photo-surface-of-her-rocking-some-Confederate-gear
Democrats have tried outreach to Republican voters in the South and failed repeatedly. O‘Rourke, Gillum, and Abrams were competitive because they reached out to disaffected Democrats and to Independents. Outreach to Republicans fails in statewide races in the South.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 9:25am
Isn’t the question's not: if not Pelosi who but ,if not Pelosi why?
A fairly reliable rule some one who’s actually done a job is a better choice if it comes up again than some one who hasn’t.
Why would we now want to replace her with someone who hasn’t?
Not only wasn't she already wearing the campaign ribbons from Paulson’s Pro Forma attempt to head off Alan Abelson's ( " I couldn't believe bankers would take risks that would cause their banks to fail.")impending sub prime disaster (which Obama actually fixed ) ,she then not only helped with its heavy lifting but also -oh- by- the- way -installed our MOC 1 national health systems.
Which began immediately reducing deaths .
I say again there are people around us breathing, watching the Giants, driving to Orlando who'd be dead hadn't she passed a bill that she didn’t have the votes to pass.
Correction Alan Greenspan not Alan Abelson
by Flavius on Thu, 11/22/2018 - 11:21pm
by artappraiser on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 1:47am
Wow. Turns out that Marcia Fudge wrote a letter asking for leniency in the sentencing of a Cleveland judge who beat the crap out his then wife. The former judge is now charged with the murder of his ex- wife
https://www.theroot.com/marcia-fudge-aisha-fraser-and-the-fallacy-of-the-bad-1830589253
Bye, Marcia.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 11/21/2018 - 12:07pm
hey, rmrd - I'd missed this one, or its relationship to Fudge and the Pelosi revolt. Gone gone.
Today's paean to how Nancy handled the troubles, organizer-whopper par excellence, and left her the champion of the left's next wave still:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/nancy-pelosi-likely-be...
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 11/24/2018 - 1:01am
More Dems threaten to withhold support for Pelosi
By Nolan D. McCaskill @ Politico.com, 11/23/2018 12:22 PM EST
by artappraiser on Sat, 11/24/2018 - 12:55am
Ha! Backposting too! See coda and reference to Fudge just above. If there's a Problem Solver, it seems to be Nancy.
ETA: Fudge is 66, so no generational change, while 538 decinstructs how effective Pelosi actually is (though in light of how poorly the DNC did in 2016 underestimates how disastrous a crap fundraiser can't be).
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-big-a-difference-does-the-house...
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 11/24/2018 - 1:05am