MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
January 8, 2012. By Nathan Fuller. At Bradley Manning's hearing in Fort Meade today, Judge Lind awarded 112 days credit off of any future prison sentence awarded due to the abuse Manning suffered in Quantico—little to keep military from torturing next American soldier awaiting controversial trial.
Comments
Imagine that a Soviet soldier had defected to the U.S. during their war with Afghanistan. Imagine that he had brought evidence of Soviet Army crimes similar to what Manning revealed about U.S. Army actions. For how many days would we have tortured that Soviet soldier?
How would our government and our media treat the information? How would whatever part of our population that paid attention react to that information?
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 01/09/2013 - 12:53pm
We're exceptional. No need to sweat the little stuff.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 01/09/2013 - 6:09pm
Exceptionally exceptional except when when exceptionally septical.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 01/09/2013 - 7:37pm
It's only torture when they do it to our guys, when we do it, it's 'enhanced interrogation' at least according to the George W. Bush administrations' Justice Department in 2005.
by NCD on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 10:15am
I had thought we would be done with this stuff after Ellsberg's case.
by Aaron Carine on Wed, 01/09/2013 - 6:41pm
Fix the headline: ILLEGALLY.
by acanuck on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 10:42am
Gracias. That is the first problem pointed out to me in a very long time that I had any power at all to change.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 11:24am
Doesn't time served normally count towards a prison sentence anyway? And once again, torture of this sort draws no penalties, just a chuckle and boys-will-be-boys
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 11:00am
Yeah, I wondered how more than a year of confinement waiting for a speedy trial, most of it under recognized and admittedly tortuous conditions, led to a bit over three months credit for time served.
Still, a symbolic ruling of some value, I guess.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 11:32am
If a right is slip-sliding away it might be expected that those whose career is based on that right would at least give more lip service to protecting it. Maybe they are smartly cautious about what they ask for. Of course there are exceptions.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/10/manning-prosecution-...
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 11:51am
I find Greenwald's comparisons faulty in that Bob Woodward, The New York Times, et. al. did not take this oath (my bold):
Furthermore, Manning's prosecutor didn't say he would target The New York Times or any leak recipient for that matter, he basically meant he didn't care who Manning was leaking to, only that he did.
Taking that oath, it's basically like signing a non-disclosure agreement, and so much more. You agree to do what they tell you to do! According to their rules! Or else!
Take a look at your own post title here, judge said they weren't following their own rules, and you're happy he did.
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 12:43pm
Quickly, because I have to leave soon:
It isn’t necessary to be in violation of an oath to have committed treason. Greenwald argues that Woodward would be as guilty as Manning of the charge of treason by a similar application of the laws. Manning could very justifiably be innocent of treason and still be guilty of disclosing information in violation of the law. As to violating his oath, that is very debatable given that his oath covers much more important duties.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 1:01pm
My point is simple, which you don't seem to get, apparently thinking it more complex: they are not subject to the military justice system and Manning is, by his own choice when he volunteered and signed up and took the oath.
The military is not a democratic republic. Period. The country is a democratic republic with different laws and quite different courts. Treason or similar cases are much harder to prosecute there.
I have seen you post comments about your frustration that more Dagblog members don't seem to be all that incensed about the Bradley Manning situation. Here's where I am coming from on that: ever think maybe one of the reasons is that he bascially volunteered to be a soldier? Such people might like soldiers or might hate them or anything inbetween, but since we no longer have a draft, they figure the soldier chose to be a soldier and to give up some civilian rights in exchange.
Bradley Manning knew that when he signed up, he may be learning, among other things, to kill and maim people, and that he could be doing so under orders from commanders who he must not question. Somewhere afterwards along the line he changed his mind about what he signed up for. I for one certainly have some sympathy for Manning's stated reasons and aims for what he did.
At the same time, I think if all soldiers decided they should follow their own moral intuition in every circumstance when they didn't agree with the commands of the military institution to which they had sworn obedience, what kind of military would that be? I think that would be one where the soldiers who felt their commanders weren't killing enough Taliban sympathizers or Vietcong sympathizers would feel free to take it upon themselves to rectify the situation.
I think Bradley Manning had to be prosecuted by the military. He has offered to plead guilty to many of the charges, he knows he broke military law. Also, any prosecutor's job, military or civilian, is adversarial, not meant to be even-handed. So it does not necessarily follow that what he is being prosecuted for will be what he is convicted of.
None of this is meant to imply commentary on his treatment by what I see as a bunch of stupid idiots in charge at the Quantico brig, and I think that Judge Lind should have been much tougher on them for the Navy's own good.
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 7:14pm
My point is simple, which you don't seem to get, apparently thinking it more complex: they are not subject to the military justice system and Manning is, by his own choice when he volunteered and signed up and took the oath.
The military is a branch of the government. Yes, they are the ones who have jurisdiction over soldiers but they do not get to define what is and what is not treason. If a soldier commits treason, or any other crime, the military has first shot at convicting him, but if you or I commit treason it will still be some branch of government which has jurisdiction to prosecute us and it will still not be the case that that branch of government has the right to define treason on an ad hoc basis. It appears though that, even though they do not have that right, that they do, indeed, have the power. That is, if there is no counter-force which inhibits them. A specific particular act, either is or is not treason, but whether or not a person is in the military does not alter those two possibilities one iota.
Here comes the re-hash. Greenwald does not believe that Manning committed treason. He and I both think there are many other important aspects to his case but in the article quoted he focuses almost entirely on demonstrating that if Manning's actions constituted treason then so would those of Woodward and countless other journalists, politicians, and various other government operatives.
Treason is what Manning is charged with. Treason is the wrong charge unless treason can be arbitrarily defined on an ad hoc basis. If an arbitrary decision can be made that in this case the releasing of secrets was treason, then Greenwald's reasoning holds true, IMO. Woodward and countless others have passed on secret information. If that is treason then there is a government entity which could convict them of it.
The wrong charge is far from the only thing wrong in this case but it is the one narrower part that Greenwald examined and drew a conclusion about and it was that conclusion that you disagreed with.
Bradley Manning knew that when he signed up, he may be learning, among other things, to kill and maim people, and that he could be doing so under orders from commanders who he must not question. Somewhere afterwards along the line he changed his mind about what he signed up for.
Now we have turned to a different discussion than whether Greenwald was wrong in comparing Manning's actions to Woodwards'. Manning knew that he might have to kill or maim under orders he must not question? I expect that you didn't give that one much thought. It is wrong under any philosophical system of value judgment I know of and is also against the letter and spirit of the Military Code of Conduct.
At the same time, I think if all soldiers decided they should follow their own moral intuition in every circumstance when they didn't agree with the commands of the military institution to which they had sworn obedience, what kind of military would that be?
Surely you recognize that there are times when it is a correct moral decision to disobey an order and that disobedience should be recognized as being within the law even if not at the very base level. At My Lai, who acted correctly, within the law, and within the bounds of morality, the soldiers who followed orders and killed the people in the ditch or the helicopter pilot who threatened to fire on the American troops if they didn't halt the carnage? So, if there is no one showing courage to act right I think I know what kind of military it would be, "I think that would be one where the soldiers who felt their commanders weren't killing enough Taliban sympathizers or Vietcong sympathizers would feel free to take it upon themselves to rectify the situation."
None of this is meant to imply commentary on his treatment by what I see as a bunch of stupid idiots in charge at the Quantico brig, and I think that Judge Lind should have been much tougher on them for the Navy's own good.
The actions of those idiots at Quantico was quite public. Those idiots were good soldiers, or rather Marines in this case, and would have acted instantly to obey their Commander in Chief's orders if he had ordered them to act differently. But that too is broadening the subject. And, how was Judge Lind hard on them one tiny bit? Do you think their feelings are hurt, maybe? Is there any reason to expect that anyones military career was damaged? I agree that some toughness that hit upon the idiots at Quantico [I first typed "Guantanamo". Ironically similar.] might have been beneficial to the Navy. And to other branches. And to the country.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 9:04pm
The Feds are looking to nail Assange, and they need Manning to testify that Assange encouraged him to leak documents, which is a crime (by Assange). Not the first time someone has been mistreated and/or threatened to get testimony against a bigger fish.
Apparently he isn't giving in, which takes real courage.
by NCD on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 10:20pm
Bradley Manning knew that when he signed up, he may be learning, among other things, to kill and maim people, and that he could be doing so under orders from commanders who he must not question.
That is not true. Perhaps in an attempt to be brief you accidentally posted this absolute. In basic training we were put through several classes on the UCMJ and there was much focus on our requirement to disobey unlawful orders and what some possible unlawful orders might be. Of course that was 1977, just after the Vietnam war and the My Lai massacre. There may not now be as much focus put on the requirement to disobey unlawful orders, but I'm fairly certain there is still some instruction on that topic.
It seems silly to expect young enlisted men and women, of at best moderate education, to make that judgment call in extreme circumstances when the day to day life of military personnel is so authoritarian and regimented. Yet the UCMJ does expect even lowly enlisted personnel to make the judgment call.
You are entirely correct though in stating the military is not a democracy. It has its own laws and courts and that's what you sign up for.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 10:48pm
He falls under a different legal system. As Ocean-kat noted, as a soldier he still has a duty to report crimes against humanity (e.g. helicopter attack on civilians) - questions about proper chain for whistleblowing, and what of his other actions were justified under that is open to judicial determination.
From his moral stance, he still likely deserves to be prosecuted for something. But if the government won't go after the billion dollar NY Times for leaks, and actively spoons out leaks to Bob Woodward, I don't see why a lowly enlisted man should take all the heat for sudden concern about leaks.
And it's obvious from the long delays in his trial, from his mistreatment, from the limbo at Guantanamo that the government simply can't or won't make up its mind on basic legal issues, and instead uses this fucked up dual venue/partly secret process to just stall and do what it wants. Most of it being political, not criminal.
As I noted, the acts at Abu Ghraib probably caused much more damage, embarrassment and actual reprisal attacks than anything Manning did (including a $5 million payout to victims). Photos were released in early 2004, Graner was charged by May, and in mid-January 2005 (8 months), he was convicted & sentenced to 10 years, served 6 1/2 and is now free.
Bradley Manning was arrested in May 2010, moved to Quantico in July 2010, transfered to Kansas 8 months later, charged in Feb 2012 (another 10 months), and now his trial is delayed until June 2013 (over 3 years since arrest). He faces maximum life in prison, and is offering to plea at 20 years.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 01/11/2013 - 4:00am
He falls under a different legal system. As Ocean-kat noted, as a soldier he still has a duty to report crimes against humanity (e.g. helicopter attack on civilians) - questions about proper chain for whistleblowing, and what of his other actions were justified under that is open to judicial determination.
From his moral stance, he still likely deserves to be prosecuted for something. But if the government won't go after the billion dollar NY Times for leaks, and actively spoons out leaks to Bob Woodward, I don't see why a lowly enlisted man should take all the heat for sudden concern about leaks.
And it's obvious from the long delays in his trial, from his mistreatment, from the limbo at Guantanamo that the government simply can't or won't make up its mind on basic legal issues, and instead uses this fucked up dual venue/partly secret process to just stall and do what it wants. Most of it being political, not criminal.
As I noted, the acts at Abu Ghraib probably caused much more damage, embarrassment and actual reprisal attacks than anything Manning did (including a $5 million payout to victims). Photos were released in early 2004, Graner was charged by May, and in mid-January 2005 (8 months), he was convicted & sentenced to 10 years, served 6 1/2 and is now free.
Bradley Manning was arrested in May 2010, moved to Quantico in July 2010, transfered to Kansas 8 months later, charged in Feb 2012 (another 10 months), and now his trial is delayed until June 2013 (over 3 years since arrest). He faces maximum life in prison, and is offering to plea at 20 years.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 01/11/2013 - 4:18am
What? No one cares about Manning violating an oath or not following the rule book - it's all about leaking classified info, info that will help teh enemy.
Again, it's arbitrary - Wikileaks publishing classified info is a problem. The NY Times publishing it is not. In fact, Wikileaks published it through the NY Times - so the Times was a co-conspirator and made final decision on which items would be published. But no Times reporter is living in the Bolivian embassy as the US attempts to shut down leaks. John
Lynndie England violated military regulations and went to prison for less than 2 years, and wasn't put on 24 hour watch and stripped naked (something that might have been poetic justice). Arguably she did the military much more harm than Bradley Manning.
John Brennan can leak classified info and he gets promoted to head the CIA. Bob Woodward is the designated leaker of classified info - he gets more White House access. Kiriakou can report wrongdoing - US torture via waterboarding - and he's prosecuted for a leak.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 2:44pm
Another quick drive-by:
The subject here is closely related. And, it is in the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/09/opinion/the-cias-double-standard-on-se...
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 3:12pm
I suppose Manning's status as a soldier makes him different from Ellsberg, but is he being charged with disobeying an order? I thought he was being charged with divulging the information and with "aiding the enemy". How is giving stuff to Wikileaks aiding the enemy? Because our enemies can read it? Couldn't that make any leaks to the news media "aiding the enemy", since anyone can read a paper or watch CNN? Perhaps that standard would allow us to send civilians to prison for whistleblowing.
by Aaron Carine on Thu, 01/10/2013 - 4:52pm