MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
I got in trouble for this earlier. I'm sorry - truth hurts.
Comments
Thank you for posting this. I remember this from college. It is not well known that the south had slave patrols and some of the southern colonies were police states. The southern states wanted to be able to raise militias to protect against slave up risings. They were afraid from day one of a centralized federal government.
by trkingmomoe on Sun, 07/14/2013 - 10:01am
Thank you for posting this. I remember this from college. It is not well known that the south had slave patrols and some of the southern colonies were police states. The southern states wanted to be able to raise militias to protect against slave up risings. They were afraid from day one of a centralized federal government.
by trkingmomoe on Sun, 07/14/2013 - 10:01am
The world is a complex place and anytime you try to narrow it down and simplify it you're usually wrong. Were there some southern politicians that pushed for the 2nd amendment in part because of slavery? Probably. But it was just one reason and probably not the most salient.
100 years before the American revolution some Catholic English king attempted to disarm the protestant population. The right to bear arms was written into English law at that time. Nothing to do with slavery. Many of the colonies were begun by those same protestants fleeing oppression from England. Those religious colonies remembered that attempt to disarm them. Some of those protestant northern states wrote that same protection into their state constitutions based on that English law. States with so few slaves that insurrection was not even a remote possibility.
Militias were not an exclusive southern phenomena whose main purpose was to put down slave rebellions. Most northern states with virtually no slave population also had militias whose main purpose was to fight indians. Just a few decades before the American revolution northern militias fought the French And Indian war.
One can plausibly make the case the the 2nd amendment was just because of slavery or just because of the recent rebellion against a tyranical crown or just because of the need to fight Indians or merely a continuation and extension of freedoms granted under the English bill of rights. I think its all of those. But imo our American freedoms fit most neatly in a historical context that includes the steady increase of rights in England.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 07/14/2013 - 5:32pm
Heh - that actually makes the Second Amendment sound historically worse than I was trying to make it, Ocean Kat.
by Orion on Sun, 07/14/2013 - 7:41pm
Well sure Orion, you can make the case that the theft of the whole continent was an atrocity. I'd agree with you. What you can't do is ignore it and attach the whole passing of the 2nd amendment to slavery.You can't ignore the religious persecution in England that drove most of the northern colonists and the passing of the English bill of rights. You can't ignore that America had just fought a war against what it saw as a tyrannical government. You can't ignore the large numbers of people living on the ever westward moving border with the natives who didn't just use guns for defense against indians but also defense against animals or for hunting both for food and furs. A much needed source of income.
Its a much more complex issue that you're making it out to be.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 07/14/2013 - 8:20pm
I definitely understand that, Ocean Kat, but all of those things are elements of the past. At this point, guns are an epic health hazard which turn normal disagreements in to funerals.
by Orion on Sun, 07/14/2013 - 8:34pm
It is true that changing the language of the amendment favored the Southern States.
But the change should be seen in the larger context of the idea that militias could replace the function that armies played in European States. The colonies (a very fractured collective whole) just won a war against such an army by organizing militias and not needing to organize all of them. The making of the Constitution was done with the hope that the evils of standing armies could be avoided while still enjoying the benefits of a unified polity.
In Federalist Paper No. 29, Hamilton dismissed the fear expressed by unnamed parties that militias from one group of states could take action against another under the name of national security. The language of the Second Amendment does not address this problem. Nor did it provide a stumbling block to exactly that action taking place with the outbreak of the Civil War.
Another element to take into consideration is that the South had cut a very sweet deal with the 2/3rd rule of representation letting slaves be counted as citizens that provided a lot of power on a Federal level. Their point of view obviously changed with the abolition of slavery and crushing defeat of their economy.
by moat on Sun, 07/14/2013 - 9:15pm
Hey moat, I have heard what you have said alot but it seems strange when the United States, with the Second Amendment intact, ended up with the biggest standing army ever. It seems like all the purposes of the Second Amendment related to a particular historical situation or turned out irrelevant to begin with.
by Orion on Sun, 07/14/2013 - 10:25pm
True enough, although the 'irrelevance' was not immediate but took place gradually as the Federal system developed. There certainly was no move to reconsider the amendment after its intention to dispense with a standing army had clearly failed. Some part of that inactivity must have come from a reluctance to accept that the Founders were thoroughly mistaken in their belief that a republic could go forward without a unified military organization.
by moat on Tue, 07/16/2013 - 11:23am
We have gotten rid of amendments to the constitution before and have added amendments so that now women can vote, black people are no longer slaves and you can still buy alcohol.
The really key to seeing change is to be hardcore - don't back down. We live like this because of gun nuts and they are nuts. If we make the case eloquently enough, most of society will see them as nuts. If we don't make the case, it will be made for us.
The Second Amendment allows the free ownership of tools of mass murder. Therefore, as it is now, it is a threat to the rest of the constitution. People murdered with guns can't speak freely, can't worship freely, can't vote, can't drink alcohol. They are dead. Overturning or seriously amending it is a necessity.
by Orion on Tue, 07/16/2013 - 8:41pm
Orion, I probably favor gun control legislation nearly as strict and comprehensive as you. So this comment is not an argument against gun control.
There is no reason to amend the constitution to pass gun control legislation. The first amendment is even more clear in its protection of speech and assembly and there are more laws controlling it. There are laws against slander and libel, pornography, fighting words, etc. But the most relevant are the laws concerning time, place, and manner restrictions on the first amendment. While I think they have gone to far and have begun to inhibit our first amendment rights they have been found constitutional time and time again. So to would most gun control legislation if congress could pass it.
The difficulty in passing gun control legislation has nothing to do with the constitution. Its all about lack of will among politicians and those in favor of those laws not holding politicians accountable with their vote.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 07/16/2013 - 9:42pm
Well, the POV of the National Rifle Association is pretty in line with the Second Amendment - "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed." Maybe you could get some sane gun control in this country without doing something to the Second Amendment but you would need an organization at least comporable to the NRA for the other side of the issue.
You have alot of conservatives, after the Sandy Hook massacre, like Joe Scarborough saying "enough is enough." You could definitely convert alot of people here - it's hard to defend gun ownership after what guns have been used for of late without sounding a bit sociopathic. But you need a lobbying force as serious as the other side has had.
It's good to hear that we do both agree on this issue - alot of disagreement happens on this site needlessly I think. Heh. I used to be a libertarian/conservative too and I'd say that a sizeable portion of average conservatives aren't really comfortable with gun culture either - it's only a few that are really pushing this status quo. I think we could really change this if we push hard enough.
by Orion on Wed, 07/17/2013 - 5:13am