MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Should we worry that the way they used to be is the way they are now?
Comments
This is not helpful:
The looters and vandals are not protestors. The cops are busy and they are taking advantage of it. The quoted claim steals the oxygen from those who question the value of excessive force in the face of angry crowds.
by moat on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 4:12pm
It's not factually true either, it's a delusional view of what's going on. Looting is currently happening all over the country after protests have ended and police can't manage to even keep up with it. There's a ton of videos, I've posted some of them, running around chasing looters like chickens with their heads cut off.
This is a perfect storm of businesses left unattended and unprotected because of coronavirus isolation meeting with anger over the Floyd situation.
In hindsight, it actually was a miracle that the looting didn't start before the Floyd execution on video. That the criminal element was frightened into staying at home, too.
Now that's over. People are getting desperate for income, many don't know where the next cent is coming from. The more criminally minded are ahead of the game, jumping in and organizing looting gangs. But there is also the affect of the entitlement being raised by the protests, and that is giving leave for some who normally wouldn't to rationalize stealing, so they are joining in.
The protests just help make a ripe situation a perfect storm.
Police are both incompetent and overwhelmed, the opposite of in control of anything.
If you're going to do conspiracy, look to what orders the National Guard gets from now on.
by artappraiser on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 5:18pm
What do you see stated in the article that is factually incorrect?
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 6:32pm
AA will certainly answer for herself but what I find factually incorrect is the claim that the looting is a direct cause of the police responses against the protesters.
At the very least, one could ask for more than a bare assertion that such is the case. The claim is put forward as if it were self evident.
I am done with all the "self evident" rhetoric. From anybody.
by moat on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 6:40pm
It's not a direct cause of either.
And furthermore, while a very few of the curfews in the past may have been meant to intimidate and confront peaceful protests, the majority of the curfews now are to free the police to chase looters that are coming out at night. Without protestors getting in the way of cops and robbers action.
Preferably they would be enacted in order that they are free to prevent looting, but it's not working out that way. Go look at the argument between Cuomo and DeBlasio if you don't believe that's what's going on. Cuomo actually threatened DeBlasio with removal from office today!
As a matter of fact, conspiracizing along the lines of police not doing their job on purpose would make more sense. But I am not seeing a whole lot of evidence of that. A few videos of police standing by while looting going on, but very few. Mostly keystone cop chasing after the fact because there's too many at once. (A whole bunch of cops were stuck in the huge Macy's Chicago alone for example, hunting down hiding looters. While they are doing that, tons of other businesses were being looted in the same area.) The looters are pros and amateurs mixed, too. I.E., one guy just blew himself up trying to blow up a cash machine, others don't bring enough bags to carry the shit they are trying to steal and fall and drop it allover the place....
by artappraiser on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 7:03pm
Let me be clear: it's clear that very few of the looters have anything to do with the protests, maybe they watched some of it on TV. They are coming from home to loot after the protests are over. Many in cars, pulling up to the stores of their choice. A few at the back end of the protests might be anarchist types. The majority of looting is going on is just plain looting unaffiliated with the protestors. As I just heard Cuomo clip repeated on the local news LOOK. AT THE. VIDEOS! (Cuomo wants the National Guard and De Blasio doesn't.)
by artappraiser on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 7:10pm
I think the authors made a distinction between what they presented as historical fact and what they presented as a possibility to be on watch for. I agree though that they reported assertions by protesters about whether the chicken came first or the egg that cannot, at this time and likely ever, be either proven or disproved but they were identified as claims by protesters, not as established facts.
The last sentence in that quote seems counter-intuitive as to how the looting started. The looting started, IMO, the instant the looters became convinced they could get away with it. That said, there is plenty of evidence of uncalled for brutality by the police documented by legitimate journalists, some of whom became victims themselves.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 7:31pm
The authors do not make a clear distinction between history (as a clearly accepted set of facts) and various ways a narrative of that kind might misrepresent facts. They want the reader to be guessing what may the the truth or not. Who knows, they may be on to something. But if they are, this is the worst way to bring it forward: "I know this secret shit but I cannot tell you because it is too secret."
Fuck that. All of that sort of thing. Even if it might be correct sometimes.
by moat on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 8:09pm
" In rally after rally, people have observed that looting and destruction only began after police charged and beat a crowd, or fired tear gas or rubber bullets into it"
I've seen no evidence it's true. And I highly doubt it's true. It's at most anecdotal which isn't evidence and more than that I haven't even seen much anecdotal information to begin to give it some conditional consideration.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 6:43pm
With Lulu on this. The "anecdotal" evidence intuitively makes sense - this, today NYT:
Too many cops "controlling" peaceful protestors, and when the cops create mayhem by " controlling the battle space" with peaceful protesters, it creates mayhem and opportunities for looting elsewhere.
The Mayor and police commissioner admitted as much publicly to the NYT. There were apparently no cops in Herald Square yesterday to protect iconic department stores like Macy's.
As to historical cases of law enforcement planting violent stooges, the advent of ubiquitous cell phone and security videos make it too easy to identify people now compared to years ago.
by NCD on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 8:33pm
The article Lulu cites does not contend that resources put in one place was an opportunity cost to be counted against what could have been done in other places. The implication is that the looting was an intended outcome of the response to the protest.
by moat on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 9:04pm
I think the message is not to assume uncritically that the cops and other authorities are playing clean as they deal with the mess caused by a dirty cop.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 9:16pm
Agree. Just recalled the First Law of NYC Police Behavior:
1. It is easier and more satisfying to harass law abiding citizens then to confront criminals.
It's wby they gravitate to the marchers, not stopping looters. I lived in NYC for 9 years.
by NCD on Tue, 06/02/2020 - 9:42pm
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 06/03/2020 - 11:33am
Well they would as they are a major part of The Deep State.Probably thoroughly inflitrated by Antifa before Obama left office.![cheeky cheeky](http://cdn.ckeditor.com/4.5.6/full-all/plugins/smiley/images/tongue_smile.png)
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