Coming February 6, 2024 . . .
MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Pre-order at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
Coming February 6, 2024 . . . MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Pre-order at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
From Tamba Bay analysis
A Tampa Bay Times analysis of nearly 200 cases — the first to examine the role of race in "stand your ground" — found that people who killed a black person walked free 73 percent of the time, while those who killed a white person went free 59 percent of the time....
• Whites who invoked the law were charged at the same rate as blacks.
• Whites who went to trial were convicted at the same rate as blacks.
• In mixed-race cases involving fatalities, the outcomes were similar. Four of the five blacks who killed a white went free; five of the six whites who killed a black went free.
• Overall, black defendants went free 66 percent of the time in fatal cases compared to 61 percent for white defendants — a difference explained, in part, by the fact blacks were more likely to kill another black.
...The Times analysis does not prove that race caused the disparity between cases with black and white victims. Other factors may be at play.
The analysis, for example, found that black victims were more likely to be carrying a weapon when they were killed. They also were more likely than whites to be committing a crime, such as burglary, at the time.
...
Of the 88 fatal "stand your ground'' cases that have been decided, only about a fourth involved defendants and victims of different races — including six cases in which a white killed a black, five cases in which a black killed a white and six in which a Hispanic killed a non-Hispanic.
No charges were filed in most of those mixed-race cases.
...But the Times found that blacks and whites have had nearly the same success rate when arguing "stand your ground'' in hearings before a judge.
Comments
I'm not sure if my suspension is up, but I believe that this data is statistically insignificant and misleading, and not surprising coming from the Tampa paper. The issue of assessing ongoing racism against African Americans and the effect of this so-called "stand your ground" law is not resolved by focusing on data which largely relates to white on white crime or black on black crime. What might be significant would be an analysis of white on black crime versus black on white crime. You have a couple of data points in that realm which you cite, but they are are hardly dispositive in assessing the continuing lingering effects of four hundred years of discrimination, in particular with respect to this "stand your ground law".
I would also note the irony of standing by a Snowden and a Greenwald on the one hand--and perhaps not considering that, but for this stand your ground law, a black kid, minding his own business and engaged in the eminently private practice of walking home from the store, was confronted by a white man with a gun and now he's dead. This man Zimmerman walks free because he had the right under state law to carry a gun and because of the manner in which the Florida stand your ground was written. That is different than the far more important issues of race that are indisputably part of what happened here.
Michael, I have no intention of beginning posting again, because I am uncertain about the length of my suspension. I just felt that my point was significant enough to offer up
I will not be responding to any reply, because I am uncertain if my suspension is up for threatening you with physical violence if you ever said the things you wrote to me in my presence. So the floor is all yours.
by Bruce Levine on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 8:42am
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 9:13am
Bruce, I trust you to decide when you're ready.
m
by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 10:01am
Thank you Michael. I appreciate that.
by Bruce Levine on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 10:19pm
Well, it was the first study after the law went into effect AFAIK, and tried to draw conclusions as best as it could.
I was actually quite surprised by what seems to be equal access to the law (even though some note that the law itself increases homicides)
"• In mixed-race cases involving fatalities, the outcomes were similar. Four of the five blacks who killed a white went free; five of the six whites who killed a black went free." It's a small sampling, but fairly balanced.
The issue in a neighborhood is we're balancing rights of having an undisturbed home vs the right to walk where you want. Note that Martin was technically not "walking home" - he was visiting, so walking to his father's fiancée's home. You can find a description of Sanford's Neighborhood Watch program here. Assuming Zimmerman didn't attack or confront Martin, please say what he did so out of line being "eyes and ears".
Many apartment buildings have security and limited access. Many apartment complexes have fences around them and security guards. You're welcome to review the Twin Lakes amended by-laws to get an idea how they were restricting access, tenants, what kind of atmosphere they wanted to create. The burglaries & Neighborhood Watch program came after that.
Whether the boy was "minding his own business", I don't know. He seems to have gotten in trouble several times in the previous year - petty theft, graffiti, drugs, fighting. I remember myself at that age, looking for stupid trouble, and I wasn't the only one. So whether he aroused suspicion because of his demeanor or ways of looking at things, or just being unknown wearing a hoodie, I don't know. Did Martin swing first? I feel for his father, who got out of town with him to put him in lock-down by his girlfriend's, and instead a simple trip to the store turned into his death. And I feel for both Martin & Zimmerman as good people that made some simple mistakes and things turned horribly wrong in a moment.
I don't see this as a big statement about race. I don't know what it has to do with Snowden & Greenwald in terms of mass surveillance by authorities, rather than a local agreement of home owners.
In any case, I've accepted that people here will disagree with me on most things. In the current issue, I don't see what practical people propose to lower crime - the reaction I see is that Zimmerman shouldn't have even observed a stranger in the neighborhood, that he was a creep for even being interested in Neighborhood Watch. I remember the times when the projects were raging with shootings & abuse, but here there's the attitude that to even say anything to an out-of-place stranger is simply wrong, whether done in a friendly manner or what-not. Seems to fly in the face of "getting to know your neighbors" and "look after each other" as part of the instructions, but just my opinion. [do you remember the Guardian Angels? For or against?]
Please note that Zimmerman did not use "Stand Your Ground" as part of his defense, and since he did walk down the path, it seems unlikely (to me) that it applied.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 1:44pm
the reaction I see is that Zimmerman shouldn't have even observed a stranger in the neighborhood, that he was a creep for even being interested in Neighborhood Watch.
Such garbage. No one here has posted any such thing but creating strawmen is your forte. People don't have a problem with neighborhood watch but with neighborhood armed pursuit and confrontation.
We don't know what happened but it seems unlikely to me that the guy who said, "Fucking punks. These assholes always get away." five minutes later said, "Excuse me sir, don't mean to bother you but I'm with the neighborhood watch. There's been a few robberies in the area and I don't recognize you. Do you live here?"
Like I said all the nonsense you posted about what a nice and wonderful neighborhood watcher you are, despite all the evidence to the contrary, has nothing to do with the Zimmerman case. At the very least he was armed and you are not when you do neighborhood watch.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 2:34pm
You or Maiello said if he had to answer questions from someone walking through a neighborhood, he'd let them taste his fist.
Yes, my statement was a bit of hyperbole as I've asked a number of times what people found allowable to look after your house & family after a number of break-ins, including the woman hiding in the bathroom with her son. No one answered that question.
The overwhelming reaction has been to condemn Ziimmerman - do you think it was okay that he called 911? If he didn't have a gun would it be okay to ask Martin if he lives around there? If he wasn't packing, would it be okay for him to walk back to the grassy area to see where Martin went? As previous problems in the neighborhood seem to have been caused mostly by white & black guys around Trayvon's age and a bit older, is there an acceptable way to use that information with or without "profiling"? Did Zimmerman ever elaborate on what made Martin suspicious? Is it okay for a gated community to limit who lives there, who comes through the gate?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 07/16/2013 - 12:39am
Black men are tired of being required to answer why they belong in a certain place. Zimmerman was not law enforcement, so Martin had no requirement to answer any question posed by Zimmerman. Having a stranger approach you and ask you to "prove" you belong can be expected to produce some resentment or fear.
Zimmerman could have asked if Trayvon needed help finding an address. That might have taken much of the resentment or fear away.posing such a question would take some insight that Zimmerman lacked. A report this morning indicated that the juror who has an amazingly swift book deal told Anderson Cooper that Zimmerman went over and above what was required. The instructions by the judge led to the non- guilty verdict.
Zimmerman should have waited for law enforcement. Martin was within his rights to be angered or feel fearful.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 07/16/2013 - 7:59am
In any case, I've accepted that people here will disagree with me on most things.
I don't believe that for a second. You post a newspaper article that superficially seems to show no racial disparity in one law. While anyone with time to search could easily find 10 studies for every one like this that show clear evidence of racial disparity in the justice system. You're too educated not to know that. But you're just looking for an argument and this article suits your purpose.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 2:48pm
Blah blah blah. Go find those fucking articles, prove your case. You exaggerate that if the situation were reversed the black guy couldn't get a fair trial. I show a basic study proving it (surprisingly to me) fairly equal. You come along and bitch. Well quit being lazy, go find all these convincing studies. Until then, excuse me if I don't think the sky is falling in this particular case (maybe the Operation Ghetto Storm with a 68-year-old whose medalert went off getting gunned down by a cop - they're I'm outraged). Back to Mt. Olympus with you - us mere mortals have other shit to do.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 3:06pm
The point is that "good" studies are lacking and the newspaper that published the 200 case study recommends not drawing conclusions from their own data.The newspaper admits they may not have included all the cases. The US Civil Rights Commission study may provide scientific data.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 3:30pm
Peracles is brave.
by Aaron Carine on Tue, 07/16/2013 - 8:07am
I agree; what is relevant here is not how many people get convicted for killing an African-American, but the comparative conviction rates for black on white killings and white on black killings. If we're talking about racial bias in the criminal justice system, it isn't reassuring to know that blacks get convicted for killing other blacks. And we all know the courts tend to punish African-Americans more harshly than whites.
by Aaron Carine on Tue, 07/16/2013 - 10:11am
Being armed is not a part of the Neighborhood Watch guidelines.
Zimmerman's attorney felt that race was involved.According to O'Mara Zimmerman would not have been charged if he were Black. Life experiences and ethnicity are factors that help determine if race is considered an issue in certain events. There have been calls for the DOJ to review the case from a Civil a rights standpoint.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 10:49am
Christopher Darden, the former LA prosecutor, notes that it was George Zimmerman and his attorneys who made the trial a race case
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 12:09pm
It was a "race case" from the moment NBC & others reported a "white guy" killed Martin and claimed he used the word "n****r" on his 911 call, and edited Zimmerman's statements to make it sound like he emphasized "black" in his reporting.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 1:05pm
Absolutely, and the provocateurs, wont be satisfied till they divide America into armed camps Americans fighting, African- Americans, Hispanic Americans. ........ Maybe we could continue to have as many trials as necessary, until they find G Zimmerman guilty? Only then will they be happy? KEEP YOUR GUNS HANDY, IT'S ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE.
by Resistance on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 1:49pm
I think keeping guns handy will only make it worse. Even the article I quote shows STG increasing homicides. People are stupid and emotional and frequently drugged & intoxicated. Putting weapons in the mix doesn't help. I've lived places where people don't pack heat - much nicer, much more sane.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 2:11pm
Unarmed Black teen vs armed assailant put race into the picture.Martin was a "threat".
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 2:25pm
Florida parents should train their sons in the use of firearms so that the youth is the one alive to tell the story when confronted by a vigilante.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 2:28pm
This was meant as a response to Resistance.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 3:19pm
Trayvon's error was standing his ground, no black snake bit his heel.
Pre-Civil war account, southern Virginia, from the book Bound for Canaan:
by NCD on Mon, 07/15/2013 - 3:51pm