MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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Trump's Romantic Dinner with Putin
By Michael Wolraich on Tue, 07/18/2017 - 9:00pm |After his much-publicized, two-and-a-quarter-hour meeting early this month with Russian President Vladimir Putin at the Group of 20 summit in Germany, President Trump chatted informally with the Russian leader for up to an additional hour later the same day.
The second meeting, undisclosed at the time, took place at a dinner for G-20 leaders, a senior administration official said. At some point during the meal, Trump left his own seat to occupy a chair next to Putin. Trump approached alone, and Putin was attended only by his official interpreter.
URL:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-had-undisclosed-hour-long-meeting-with-putin-at-g20-summit/2017/07/18/39c18dd4-6bd0-11e7-96ab-5f38140b38cc_story.html
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Non-wapo version that I exasperatedly posted potty-mouth style last night. Trump without even his own interpreter so Putin and his Russian cohort can spin him as they please, and counter to any usual protocol of course. Shocking, irresponsible, just one more data point on the road to lunacy.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 12:39am
I am trying to see how having only Putin's translator at the informal meeting gave Putin any advantage. It seems to me that Putin would want Trump to get a clear and honest translation that said exactly what he, Putin, intended Trump to hear. Otherwise, what's the point? Likewise, I would expect that Putin wanted the translator to convey the true meaning, as exactly as he could, of what Trump said in response. Should we worry that Putin's translator is a plant working for a third party? Cue Van Morrison. "Rave on, rave on, rave on, ... "
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 1:31am
I've been in a biz negotiation with Chinese where there were long delays in "translation" while they were obviously figuring out some bullshit retort, but to our advantage their English was pretty crap. In Trump's nonideal setup, both Putin and the translator understand him (the translator bwtter), they can chat to get the right spin, and the normally clueless Trump is even more clueless and at a disadvantage with no one to tell him he's being had.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 2:27am
Clever bastards those Rooskies, but you have done business negotiations with the Chinese? That is borderline treason isn't it?
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 2:57am
Negotiations to sell French wine or buy electronic trinkets is different than negotiations to get hacked documents or emails or to get foreign hackers to set up bots to spread fake news. Surely even you can see the difference.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 5:17am
When I worked for US Gov, I wouldnt even go to say Vietnam for potential of some communist intrigue causing embarrassment. As private citizen, I can of course do anything as long as not affected by war zones, sanctions, espionage, legal restrictions, bribery, or personal ethics. I even do business with Russian companies, no problem if it doesn't infringe the foregoing. Of course you know this and are just having fun twerking things, especially since trade with China makes up a huge portion of our legal impex and GDP, and I like tens of thousands of Yanks, Brits and Aussies lived in China as well. Nice to confuse simple issues with irrelevant bullshit.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 5:59am
Wow, just wow. I've been researching PP's secret meeting with the Chinese for a year, and he just blurted it out right here at dag. He just gave us the smoking gun, people!
Now we need to know who else was at that meeting!
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 10:20am
No one, absolutely no one. Well, Jackie Chan, but he doesn't count. We were just chatting about
Human Rights Gatheringspublic speakingall afternoonI guess forabout anhoura half hourabout 15 minsa little bit with mylawyermother on hand. Ok, I think Liu Xiaobo might have called in meanwhile. Or showed up for 5 mins. Max 10. But he didn't have anything to say. Except the envelope he left, but I didn't bother opening it. Well, just skimmed it a bit, but it didn't really mean anything. I don't really recall.by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 11:35am
PS - sorry to ruin your Salon blockbuster story you'd been working on so long. Bad timing, huh? Sux. I guess I can give you partially attribution, "This Tweet/post was created in collusion with Genghis", presuming they can figure out who Genghis is. [he's the one with the loud shirts and lapels that look like wingtip shoes, folks... and married to a Russian - whoot!!!]
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 11:48am
Bad timing, my butt. Someone leaked, and I know just who it is. Not naming names, but it rhymes with Rick Ray.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 1:27pm
Can't be - I have it from my good friend Geez Louise that "Ray" is in a witness protection program while marshalls prepare a traitor purge. Inside reports say the leak's more likely to come from someone whose name sounds a bit similar to "DayGlo", seeing as he shares some of the Traitor-in-Chief's favored pasttimes, keeping mum about whether that includes underaged girls.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 1:49pm
Lulu, as much as I hate to agree with Peracles ;0), this here is pretty significant.
It's not necessarily, nor just, a question of advantage. You want two people (on your side) to be able to report accurately the content of the conversation to keep an accurate record of what was said and agreed. You want two translators, one on each side, ideally to make sure no pertinent subtleties of the messages, attitudes, tones, feelings, connotations are left out. I just read a German (FAZ) article about the meeting, where they quote other anonymous state leaders at the dinner who were shocked that Trump refused to have an American translator, because of the obvious threat to national security that such an omission creates.
I just finished a language course with an advanced level exam, where the hardest questions were listening exercises reading off attitudes implied by the speaker, is (sh)he being ironic, frustrated, perplexed, politely disinterested? I can read Thomas Mann without too much trouble but scored only 85% on those "attitude interpretation" exercises. Without a translator, much less a national security advisor familiar with the subtleties of certain phrases or expressions or omissions, it is highly likely the communication was less than ideal. That both Putin and Trump were willing to sacrifice this vital precision in information conveyed shows that they don't trust any official US translator. Understandable, since any such person would of course be summoned by Mueller to testify.
I quickly checked if Melania speaks Russian, but she doesn't.
In short, it shows very clearly that Trump cannot trust anyone now, not even Tillerson, in the less savory aspects of his dealings with Russia. At least he seems capable of separating official above-board dealings - which can be discussed in the presence of his secretary of state - and whatever else he has going on, which at this point requires him to avoid any other participant at all.
Kellyanne will be happy to see how close to "systematic, sustained and furtive" we're getting. This story is slowly keeping all its wilder promises.
by Obey on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 5:20am
I see your point but note that I said I did not see Putin gaining an advantage in the informal meeting as it has been described. While the headlines report that Trump had a "second undisclosed meeting with Putin" as if it had been held secretly, the fact of the meeting is known because he got up during a dinner attended by many and walked over to Putin and sat down and talked. That does not seem to be the sort of situation in which Putin would be stupid enough to enter into any sort of nefarious plot or agreement even if Trump was. Maybe the security at the dinner equaled that which I presume was in place at the formal meeting but I suspect that at least Putin would not say anything in the dinner situation as described which he would be afraid of being overheard by some form of clandestine eavesdropping. Appearances are important though, as PP says, and Trump has created a situation in which many/most people feel justified in suspecting the worst that can be gleaned from any revelation. If we Trusted Trump [I don't either] this would seem very much less important I believe. I had read that there was not a Russian language translator immediately available to Trump but if the FAZ article you refer to is correct, if Trump refused to have an American translator present, then that does put it all in a different light.
I agree totally in the case of negotiations but those nuanced subtleties reveal themselves in social conversation too so opportunities to have social conversation with a person who may be or is an adversary, or a supposed ally, can be of value also. Or, someone may be taken in by a misread. That's part of life. If Trump believes he could see Putin's soul I am not reassured.
What you say above about subtleties, attitudes, tones, etc., are why I feel I get value from watching some conversations, as opposed to reading an interview, such as those I see at Bloggingheads TV and which I occasionally post here.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 10:21am
I should have been more precise. The sources of the FAZ article didn't claim he "refused" to use a US translator. They were shocked he didn't use one, since that is national security protocol 101. The idea that none was available is not credible (unless there is some evidence the translator from the afternoon meeting had an accident before dinner). Hence my perhaps overly succinct conclusion that he refused one.
Do with that caveat what you may, but I covered different international meetings around the UN and the WTO as a journalist, and the idea that the US president would talk at a state dinner for an hour with the Russian president without a US translator is unimaginable. Or rather, it *was* unimaginable. Now with Trump it is merely highly suspect.
by Obey on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 11:02am
I bow to your personal experience and appreciate your opinion and information. Not to bicker but because I honestly wonder: Is what you say about personal contact because it applies to any Russian President or this particular Russian President speaking to any American President or just to this particular one? Would it be equally shocking for Trump to speak similarly with any foreign Head of State, even an ally, whose State might have some differences in desired policy or where there is potential for conflicts of interest to be in play? I cannot know if it was just a get-to-know-you-better-and-establish-some-rapport type conversation carried out semi-publicly in a room where other interested parties are likely to be within earshot at least occasionally, but is that, if it were the case, beyond acceptable protocol?
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 11:47am
Answering for myself, a normal US leader like Obama talking say to Merkel isn't that shocking because she didn't just annex part of Austria, send her troops into Sicily, hack France's election and kill a bunch of German journalists - in short, an ally, not an adversary, who largely shares what we presume to be democratic, modern civilized values. The head of Philippines who's been killing anyone slightly suspected as a drug addict or Erdogan who's shut down democracy in Turkey and is firing/imprisoning a large number of presumed opponents in government, journalism, etc.? Yes, he should have a translator/2nd source to make sure the bastards don't missummarize the meeting and use for other nefarious purposes.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 11:54am
What could possibly go wrong.
by moat on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 12:28pm
Trump: "nuanced subtleties reveal themselves" .."nuance" "subtleness"...Trump??
Only in one's
by NCD on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 11:40am
"Appearances are important though, as PP says" - sorry to give that impression - criminal malfeasance, espionage, corruption, selling out the country, putting oneself in the position of blackmail to an unscrupulous wily foreign leader of arguably our biggest enemy, obstruction of justice, misleading our judicial and enforcement authorities, hacking/stealing elections, destroying our health system - these are important. I'm not playing this bullshit game of "oh, nothing happened but he should have been more careful" - he's a lying, thieving, self-enriching skunk that's selling us down the river, and this is just one more example of him fucking with us and fucking us, while his party/partners in crime simply don't give a shit because they're getting kickbacks and funding in the background, and/or just willing to sell themselves out for a mess of pottage.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 11:42am
I don't think there is much to worry about--the dramatis personae at theTower Tete-a-Tete pretty much confirms that scrutiny of the most casual sort (Mueller's, a fortiori) would unearth a billion plus in laundered money passing through real estate holdings tied in one way or another to the Trump outfit.
As the nice lady who collected dues for the Library Auxiliary found out one sad day, the thing about money is it always leaves a paper trail, and even if everything is nominally proper, the minute there is any kind of audit, laundering, like embezzlement, becomes obvious.
by jollyroger on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 2:49pm
He's been getting away with it for decades. Even now it seems he's just as likely to get away with it despite all the outrages. He's American Psycho except that was supposed to just be a book/movie, a parody.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/19/2017 - 6:51pm
I don't think he was ever subjected to the kind of financial proctology he will be getting from Mueller, the more so given the tranche of Trump Piss that he today delivered via the NY times direct to Bobby Three-Sticks patrician visage...
by jollyroger on Thu, 07/20/2017 - 2:31am