MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
By Gianni Riotta for La Stampa via Guardian.co.uk, Jan. 26, 2012
(In an interview) The writer and semiologist advocates a sexual revolution to make us all 'European'
[.....] "When it comes to the debt crisis," says Eco, "and I'm speaking as someone who doesn't understand anything about the economy, we must remember that it is culture, not war, that cements our [European] identity. The French, the Italians, the Germans, the Spanish and the English have spent centuries killing each other. Today, we've been at peace for 70 years and no one realises how amazing that is any more. Indeed, the very idea of a war between Spain and France, or Italy and Germany, provokes hilarity. The United States needed a civil war to unite properly. I hope that culture and the [European] market will do the same for us."[.....]
Comments
Also, much commotion on topic--a special Guardian interactive, with caricature illustrations and plenty of what Americans might call ethnic slurs, posted Jan 26:
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 9:35pm
Perhaps Americans could use more self-deprecating humor.
by PeraclesPlease (not verified) on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 12:47am
There's also this:
A ton of mainstream conservatives do say that the Supreme Court is non-democratic (and I sometimes agree!) I also agree, despite my personal dislike of Berlusconi, that it was a step too far for the IMF and EU financial authorities to demand his ouster. Bondholders ousting elected governments does bother me, though, to be fair, by the time a bondholder can do that, the electorate is usually pretty fed up. Still, can you imagine what would happen if foreign U.S. bondholders ever demanded that an existing president stand down? War. No doubt. Bad war, too.
by Michael Maiello on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 10:07pm
One of the amazing things about Eco's mind is how he can sometimes really get at important themes (or should I say spiderwebs or frameworks? something like that?) underlying all manner of things that are happening. That few others are seeing or saying.
When you said
what would happen if foreign U.S. bondholders
I immediately thought: but we mostly agree on what constitutes furriners over here; one of the big issues over there is: what constitutes a furriner?
P.S. And hey, destor: bondholders are electorate, too just razzing ya
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 10:24pm
Razz away, I love it when you're right!
Most U.S. bondholders are U.S. citizens or institutions. Our "furrin" bondholders are a distinct minority. In the E.U., most sovereign bond holders are banks domiciled in that country... so Italian debt is owned largely by Italian banks. Except that also a lot of non-Italian banks own it, and a lot of non-Italians own Italian bank stock (and bonds) and a ton of people throughout Europe did business with banks in Italy the same way us New Yorkers would not worry too much about banking with a financial institution from Montana. I suspect that a lot of folks, including people in the U.S., made the bet that the EU would back member state banks when things got bad. This is the same bet people made on Fannie and Freddie (and they were right, if they weren't equity holders).
by Michael Maiello on Fri, 01/27/2012 - 10:48pm
This is so sweet. An 80-year old Italian guy says that more sex between people who wouldn't otherwise like each other at all is what will finally save Europe and the world.
Before we write the idea off completely, I feel obligated to point out that it worked pretty well for the Irish.
by erica20 on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 1:28am
I've always secretly believed that the real reasons for the success of the Marshall plan lay in the interactions of charming young European women, handsome American fellows, and a certain amount of plum schnapps. (There were also quite a few lovely American women who went overseas and found themselves in this virtuous circle of diplomacy as well.)
I have also wondered if our efforts in the Middle East have been somewhat stymied by the culture-based proscriptions against socializing in the Muslim world, and perhaps by our leaders' message to the troops that all Muslims are the enemy. (To be fair, not all our leaders sent that message to the troops, but quite a few did.)
by erica20 on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 2:32pm
I'm just about to begin Eco's latest book, Prague Cemetery. He really is an amazing guy, brilliant, and colorful and wonderful. I wonder, however, if circumstances have moved beyond the Pax Europa he speaks of and finds material. Europe's real challenge in this respect would seem to be the long overdue integration of the Roma, whom you address in another news link above, and of course the absolutely abysmal record that just about every European country has had thus far in welcoming and accommodating the increasing numbers of immigrants from North Africa and other largely Islamic countries. I guess think that is the real challenge for Europeans who dream of one big happy family--a good dream indeed, but in 2012 how profound is it to those of us who didn't witness the two great wars of the last century that Germans and Brits are making whoopy? :)
by Bruce Levine on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 10:03am
Those of us who hope for a brighter future for Israel, and neighboring nations, might also echo Eco's dream that it won't take "centuries killing each other" for Arabs, Jews and Christians to live harmoniously, with a "welcoming and accommodating" spirit that will benefit all in the region. At the same time recognizing the great history, creativity, vitality and common aspirations of each unique people and religion.
by NCD on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 1:02pm
About a month ago I heard an author interview, can't remember where, on a book called "Jerusalem--a Biography" and have been meaning to track the book down. It posits Jerusalem as a distinct entity and deals with the incredible diversity within it. Has anyone read it, assuming I got the title right?
by Oxy Mora on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 3:00pm
Yeah, it's by a guy named Montefiore. I haven't read it myself, but on the strength of a very enthusiastic recommendation I purchased it as a Christmas gift for someone else with an interest in the Mideast. My long-range plan is to borrow it after the recipient reads it.
by acanuck on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 3:23pm
Coincidentally, the same person who recommended Jerusalem also urged me to read Eco's Prague Cemetery. It's high on my to-do list.
by acanuck on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 3:26pm
I just got Jerusalem-A Biography. For some reason I had it delivered to my office by mistake and it's so thick I still haven't taken it home! But it traces the history of the city back over 3,000 years and is supposed to be absolutely riveting. Montefiore, the author, is a descendant of Sir Moses Montefiore, who in the middle of the 19th century funded the what I believe was the first community outside of the walls of the old city, in a what is now called Yemin Moshe, just off from where the King David Hotel is located and basically right on the west side of the Green Line. He built a windmill hoping that the people would move out of the squalid conditions they were living in inside the walls and use the windmill to grind wheat into flour. I don't think it worked out very well, but the windmill is still there. Anyway, I'll get to the book eventually but by all accounts it is fascinating in terms of how it brings to life all of the many peoples who have lived there over the millenia. Warts and all, Jerusalem remains a very magical place.
by Bruce Levine on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 4:10pm
Amen brother.
by Bruce Levine on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 3:55pm
the Roma, whom you address in another news link above,
Yeah, I definitely realized when I was posting it that I was countering all the positive hopey stuff in this thread, including the Guardian/Europa interactive that so good naturedly addresses all the ethnic stereotype stuff. I ran across the Roma story after I posted those two, and felt for a moment that maybe I should self-censor and not post that, not ruin the mood for everyone else as it was doing for me. But when I started to read the middle part about the Kristallnacht-type pogrom, I couldn't not post it.
The way I look at it is that in every mixed society there is always going to prejudice against or hatred for certain groups, and that often turns into self-fulfilling prophecies and vicious circles. If a group is turned into a scapegoat and demonized, based on the behavior of some, there is often little choice left for them but to turn more towards behaviors that caused some of the prejudice in the first place.
But but but the pogrom behavior, it is so so crucial for government to attack it as criminal as soon as the slightest hint of it is there, so crucial to protect minority groups that way! You can't stop hate speech but you can criminalize their actions. It is such an easy line to draw, where to stop the vicious circles. There is no excuse that the Hungarian government can give for letting those thugs and goons do what they did. It is scary to even see a government let it go on for an hour much less days.
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 6:30pm
The chuckle for the day.
Bslev makes an important point:
To the second issue, it isn't just at the foot of the European countries that the accommodation has not gone so well. The issue brings up the clash between the ideal of respecting all cultures and maintaining a set of cultural values. At what point should one do as the Romans do when in Rome? And when should Romans accommodate those who do it differently?
The Roma also bring up the issue raised by diasporic nations. For many in the modern world, we tie our national identity to the political states in which we reside. Americans on this side of the border, Canadians on that side of the border. The identity attachment slides down the scale, so the Washingtonians will come to hate the invading California's for ruining the "culture" (while driving up the prices of houses).
So Eco seems to be looking for a way to get people to embrace a flexible identity. Which is different than the political institutions in which the individuals move about. As he says:
But that doesn't mean there can't be a European identity. It is also possible that there becomes a North American identity - one in which the individuals in Canada, US, and Mexico see themselves as distinct group, as "one" people. Although I would assume individuals proposing this would get even more virulent reactions than Eco has encountered from Welsh mayors and anchormen.
But having a flexible identity is a tricky thing. People in general want to believe their identity, who their "self" is, is as tangible as the rocks and clouds. Getting them to consider expanding the definition, or even to completely turn it on its head is a challenge of a life time. Yet if they shift themselves, as with Erasmus idea, almost unnoticed by them in the living out of a life, then it becomes more plausible. It is the difference between forced integration and voluntary (if not unconscious) integration.
Then we are back to the North African and Islamic immigrants, who do not want to integrate culturally with their host countries. It is a story played out over the centuries, but only as of late has the idea that the host country should limit their demand of integration been considered at all.
by Elusive Trope on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 4:24pm
Intermarriage forces things on this front as well, (without government attempts at social engineering,) hence the sex idea along with the Erasmus idea. I've seen it in my own family, how it works--it can change even the lifelong beliefs of 80-year-olds about "the other," almost miraculously.
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 5:41pm
Especially if there are grandchildren involved.
I know it's crazy but it totally works.
by Erica (not verified) on Sat, 01/28/2012 - 7:04pm