MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
A do-gooder Samaritan goes to jail for calling 911 & gets stripped and restrained in a padded isolation cell as topping. PhD grad, social volunteer, head of a startup - didn't yell, wasn't drunk, no drugs or guns... doesn't matter.
I must say all the debate about the Dunn verdict pisses me off. We have such an imperfect system, where people black and white and Hispanic are wrongfully tased even while unconscious, illegally searched, knocked around, and we're going to obsess over a single verdict that ended up 80% successful for most people?
Obligatory Public Enemy link:
Comments
On the other post, we settled on........ it was class warfare.
How can we stop the abuse, like this poor soul in the article had to endure?
Can class warfare be blamed for this too?
by Resistance on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 9:53am
We "obsess" over the Dunn verdict because it is a core part of the problem. The police feel free to abuse citizens. Fearful citizens feel deputized to kill fellow citizens. Abusive police should be fired. Instead, the is paid leave or a reprimand at most. Once you allow the lower standards to become the gold standard, police abuse continues.
Fearful, armed citizens who get away with murder send a message to other fearful, angry, armed citizens that it is OK to take the law in your own hands if you feel disrespected. If you want to decrease the likelihood of vigilante inflicted bloodshed. Send a message that murder is not acceptable.
The message from Dunn is make sure that you kill everything that you target, your lawyer will get you off. Dunn was convicted because he missed the remaking targets. We can be outraged about the police abuse and the Dunn verdict. It is a continuum. The standard of what is acceptable behavior has to be increased.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 10:45am
Pure BS - 1) the other targets were leaving the station so he couldn't claim self-defense, 2) prosecutors focused on a 1st degree premeditated murder charge, which is more difficult to convict that a 6-person jury for a moment of passion/irritation 2nd-degree murder, 3) he can always be recharged, though a 12-member jury may still get hung so prosecutors would be wise to consider likely outcomes, 4) you seem to think juries' duty is to find your way or that the law needs to be what you think acceptable or else its racist. Blacks killed a lot of people in the crime-ridden 1980's - did their lawyers manage to get them off, or did incarceration go way up? Bad advice. A lot of whites and blacks have been terrorized by people with guns, gang violence and other bad situations - don't you think that's why Stand Your Ground came into being in the first place, people sick of the "if you shoot someone drag them out of your house" response, including the Bernhard Goetz shooting that inspired a lot of SYG feeling and citizen outrage.
In this piece, we see a white guy abused by police and the system itself, whereas ratio on a given night is more typically abusing as many blacks - however, we've also removed the crimes as this guy was helping with an accident rather than a crime - but likely more police calls are about crimes, not accidents - in all these Dagblog discussions we seldom discuss actual crime waves and people as victim of standard murders and robberies and what-not. So when we talk about say stop-and-frisk, we're usually avoiding the main context where this is happening, as if we created a system out of the blue to hassle blacks somehow as a perverse extension of slavery.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 11:28am
One incident happened in San Francisco, the other in Florida. The human race is capable of a multi- pronged attack. Addressing police abuse does not mean that Stand Your Ground and no need to retreat has to go unchallenged. The actual residents of Florida seem ready to have Dunn retried and address Stand Your Ground.
NSA surveillance can be challenged simultaneously with addressing concerns about security of consumer data on corporate websites
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 11:44am
His and Ben's "helping" needed to end after they called and when the cops and EMT arrived. This guy thinks he's part of the rescue team--he's not.
His accident and therefore his caring deeply about the outcome of this accident are irrelevant to the cops and EMT unless they ask for information. This guy feels a wee bit arrogant to me as if, suddenly, he's a star player in this event.
Yes, bad and abusive as is the rest of the story and should be reported to the authorities--no question. Cops making their bones does seem to have some logic to it here, but the point in bold is correct. Ben had no role to play was the medical folks had arrived. Peretz and Ben insisting--by not leaving--that they had some role here was seen as interfering and, actually, it was.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 6:46pm
Allow me to repeat what that last bit.
Doesn't that seem like they did things in the wrong order?
by Verified Atheist on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 8:04pm
Actually, it seems so much the wrong order that I wonder if there hasn't been an elision of interaction with the emt's. It's hard to imagine that they hadn't said something to Ben like (speculation alert) "OK, we'll take over now" How would the cops be the first to speak to Ben if the emt's were already moving to treat the girl?
by jollyroger on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 8:33pm
Yeah, but who knows?
Maybe the cops were, ah, over eager.
They seem to be WAAAY over-reacting in what they did to Ben.
That said, I suspect they see their role as clearing the scene so the EMTs can do their work. Hard to say.
All that said, the denouement of his being taken into custody and all that followed is outrageous and needs to be reported a la OK's prescription.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 9:50pm
Given the source, it's entirely possible that the story is not entirely accurate, even if purely by accident. That said, the accuracy isn't what was being questioned the first time the quote was brought up, so for sake of argument I took its accuracy as a given.
by Verified Atheist on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 4:45pm
Aside from the fact that the BG incident occurred 21 years before FL passed the first SYG law, I'd have to answer your question...no.
SYG was an NRA/lobbyist creation and it's been pushed by ALEC and other lobbyists ever since. As near as I can tell, the point of NRA lobbying is to sell guns. Period. They represent the manufacturers' financial interests and, secondarily, their members'. And on issues like gun control and licensing, the leadership appears to be to the right of the membership and much more rigid.
Wayne et al like to keep the conversation at a fevered boil so that ordinary folks start to feel that they are vulnerable if they aren't packing. And they've sold this segment of the public on the falsehood that gun ownership is what is keeping this country from becoming an out and out dictatorship. Of course, it all sells guns, which is the point. Wayne takes the PR "bullet" because the manufacturers don't like to be seen pushing their lethal product.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 6:58pm
The message from Dunn is make sure that you kill everything that you target, your lawyer will get you off
What you said here immediately reminded me of the O.J.Simpson trial. That there was rejoicing then that a rich black man could finally do what white men with good lawyers had often done. Just sayin' (& thinking maybe you don't want to remind people of that by what you say on the Dunn case...)
by artappraiser on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 11:34am
Black people were disappointed, but not surprised when Zimmerman was found not guilty and when Dunn was not found guilty of murder due to a hung jury.
The response to OJ was in large part because it was considered unusual. Lawyer Johnnie Cochran, not OJ Simpson, was the celebrity in the case.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 11:48am
People who pay attention to evidence typically aren't surprised either.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 4:50pm
Yes, and understandably, if not wisely, so.
If you're a member of a tribe that has gotten the short end of every stick from slavery on down and for whom justice has been spelled "just us" since your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, and great great grandparents were wee tots, then it would be hard not to rejoice when a tribe member gets over instead of getting the usual helping of gristle inside a jail cell with no door or key.
Even if he didn't deserve his verdict. And especially when a tribe member does the dazzling footwork that makes it happen.
Put another way, if you're a member of a tribe that has been systematically subjected to injustice, then it's a bit much (in my book) to expect punctilious devotion to an ideal that has been denied you. But yipping for OJ shouldn't be misconstrued as not caring about justice. Or as thinking that the rules of justice don't apply to you. Hardly. It's just that for every "OJ" there are tens of thousands who were simply sent down the river or buried six feet under.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 7:14pm
From the blog:
Lesson, when a cop tells you to do something reasonable, like 'leave', do it, cut the jawboning story telling about your broken arm. A cop isn't your mother.
Hardly a top case of egregious police brutality or US justice system failure, of which more severe examples are almost legion in number.
by NCD on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 12:43pm
OK, so when asked to leave, Ben should've just dropped the injured Rebecca and left immediately? Was the arm lock appropriate? Remember that the injured couple had his cell phone, so was he supposed to leave without that? Should he (Peretz) not have begun to be suspicious about the police actions? Was pinning Peretz to the ground appropriate? I'm having a hard time understanding why you appear to be taking the officer's side in this story.
by Verified Atheist on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 1:59pm
I'm not 'taking the cops side'.
I'm saying 'do what police tell you to do' might have avoided his whole sad experience.
by NCD on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 3:19pm
First a pre-emptive: in no way am I excusing the arrest and treatment after the arrest here. But your comment reminded me so much of the times I have been with EMT coming to get relatives in a medical crisis or even during code blue in a hospital. For some reason, from TV shows or whatever, a lot of people expect kindness and politeness from emergency responders in these situations. That's not what happens, that's not how emergency personnel are trained these days. If you are in the way of what they are trying to do, they are downright rude on purpose, they yell at you to get out of the way, would tell you to fuck your cell phone (or making sure your mom having the heart attack has her favorite blanket,) or whatever you concerned about, and just get the fuck out of the way. Same with firefighters, they don't give a damn what you are screaming about, they head to that staircase or car or whatever and start chopping at it with axes (well, ok, if you scream "my baby's still on the 3rd floor," maybe they listen a sec...) It's just the way it is, we don't have the friendly nice guy cop on the beat anymore interested in psychology (if we ever did,) they all want to be life savers and have been trained that way. If you are expecting thanks and respect for being a good samaritan by calling 911, you are going to be waiting a long time, immediate gratification is not the way it works.
by artappraiser on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 3:36pm
Yes.
One has to understand their context.
For "you," this is an unusual event in the stream of events in your life.
For them, it's day in and day out with all kinds of people acting out in weird ways in the middle of life and death crises.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 7:18pm
Sorry, typically leaving and abandoning a friend to the police is a really shitty thing to do. His friend was being held, and he had a right to make sure that guy was okay. The police can't just send you home, though they can make sure you're not in the way. Balancing the 2 when they're being pricks is an art.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 4:10pm
When WE the people are forced to rely on "professionalized peacekeepers", whether we call them standing armies or police. This is what happens when some folks let the power of authority go to their heads. Dunn with a badge?
Proof: There is no guarantee, a once benevolent police department or government will remain that way.
The poor soul is just lucky he wasn't in Tiananmen Square, where the authorities would have just run him over.
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 6:27am
One thing is pretty sure: the tank would definitely have felt free to run over this guy if he had a gun in his hand instead of bags:
And if he had a gun in his hand and the tank had rolled over him because of the gun, I'm also pretty sure a significant number of Chinese people would have opined "good riddance to the hooligan."
by artappraiser on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:19pm
The communist made sure the people had no guns. The Communist leadership was probably afraid an armed population could resist and if the leadership might think about popping their heads out of doors who knows if the People of China may have changed their course of history ?
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 6:23pm
The Brits in Hong Kong and Shanghai also made sure the people had no guns - of course there was a huge uprising in the 1800s ("God's Favorite Son" - a Christian-inspired revolt of all things) and a massive Civil War to overthrow the Emperor, the occupation by the Japanese, and then the continued Civil War til Communism.
Nevertheless, due to its size China according to this site is #3 in citizen gun ownership in numbers, which is about 5 per 100. Also, there's probably a limit to what percentage of firearms the Chinese were able to confiscate after WWII and whatever falls into private hands from their huge military & police forces.
Almost no students in the world - such as the student protests at Tiananmen - carry guns, so all of this is pretty moot. People were sympathetic towards the students precisely because they were unarmed and articulate and well-organized.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 6:59pm
What happened to Tank Man, China's most famous Tiananmen ...
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 7:14pm
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 10:15pm
I dunno, they all look alike to me.... ;-)
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 2:24am
Your first sentence was reasonable (corresponding to your last sentence here), but when you said:
It really seemed like you were downplaying the cops' egregious behavior.
Edit to add: Also what PP said, though. Although I think it's reasonable to say he should've done what the cops said (and that's actually what the author himself said), I think that he did the right thing by not abandoning his friends to these power-hungry cops.
by Verified Atheist on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 5:03pm
I have a different take on that. I think its unreasonable to suggest that he should have obeyed the cops. That way leads to a totalitarian state and we are already on our way there imo due to mostly republican court decisions that value police authority over civil rights..
Theoretically we have civil rights and liberties guaranteed by the constitution and those with authority are restrained by law to grant and protect those liberties. There are so many examples of the loss of our civil liberties, as was posted they are "legion in number." Yes many of them wouldn't happen if we gave up our civil rights and just obeyed what ever order the masters give us. Is that the country we want to live in?
The reasonable response imo is that the cops should be punished, reprimanded, suspended without pay, demoted. If it happens again they should be fired. And the entire police force of the city should be instructed in the civil rights guaranteed to citizens.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 9:10pm
Really!!!! Someone else besides me on this blog recognizes that?
Join the NRA, they came to that conclusion years ago and have been resisting those with designs of totalitarian rule. Whose first steps is get the guns away, from those they wish to enslave
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 7:24am
There is absolutely no evidence that the government has the desire or the power to confiscate everyone's guns. As I've said, that's just a paranoid fantasy. As I've also said in my personal experience protesting and reading about protest movements guns will do nothing to help secure our civil rights. Only non violent resistance and voting will do that.
Look at the many advances in civil rights for African Americans. In no way would guns have helped the marchers of the Selma to Montgomery marches. In fact if they had used violence to fight back instead of non violent resistance they would have lost most of their public support and likely have lost in their pursuit of civil rights.
Please explain exactly how you think using AR-15's and fighting back against police abuse during the Selma to Montgomery marches would have advanced the cause of civil rights for African Americans?
If we want to protect our civil liberties and stop police abuse we must protest and vote. If there isn't enough popular support for change no amount of guns will help those protesting win. If there is sufficient popular support guns aren't needed, in fact use of guns will erode popular support.
The NRA is just a corporate shill for the gun makers feeding fools conspiracy theories and propaganda to frighten them into buying more and more and more guns. As the number of gun owners is declining gun sales are up. The money is in convincing current gun owners to stockpile numerous guns and ammo. That's the purpose of the NRA.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 3:16pm
The Racist Roots of Gun Control
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.racism.html
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 5:51pm
Interesting article, and I recall the Bellesisles affair.
I'm not a historian, but he seems to be on solid ground when he's discussing history. However, when he tries to turn the corner, as it were, and show his argument's modern application, he falls apart, IMO.
His principal fallacy is this: Gun control laws, like many others, were used to keep blacks subjugated. The point was to keep blacks unarmed while keeping whites armed. Having whites armed and blacks unarmed was not a form of gun control; it was a way to control blacks. And other laws were used in the same way. These legislators had no interest in controlling guns. They wanted to control blacks. This entire notion goes away when "gun control"-- let's say licensing--is applied across the board.
Cramer recognizes this problem with his argument, and you can see him squirm around trying to solve it. So he has to jump to a maximalist position: That gun control laws, including licensing, are simply ways to disarm the populace. Here's where he turns the corner and ends up in absurdity...
First, as he notes in the historical section of his article, blacks were simply not allowed to own or carry guns. There is simply no relationship between this and requiring all gun owners to register. None. And picturing gun owners who register their guns as "child-like creatures" is silly. You might as well say that everyone lined up at the DMV to get tags for their cars is a child-like creature.
Edit to add: Second, and this should have been first, the motivations were not. at. all. the same. In the first instance, the motivation was to keep blacks under their thumb. Today, the motivation is to reduce the gun violence that in fact exists. There's no hazy speculation about people being too violent or untrustworthy; there's a recognition that there's too much gun violence.
Then comes the economic argument. Gun control was a way to keep blacks economically subjugated, and its purpose today is to keep everyone subjugated.
Do you see what he does here? Again, he's trying to jump from racists laws used to subjugate blacks to gun control laws used to subjugate everyone. And to make this jump he says, "the wealthy...would have disarmed poor whites if they could, but the threat of attack made it impractical."
Well, apparently, depriving poor whites of their guns was not necessary to keeping them subjugated economically. They were happy to fight Indians and eat the gentry's dust. He understands this problem, so he skips back to gun-deprived blacks whom poor whites control at the point of a gun in order to gain economic advantages for themselves without having to threaten the even greater privileges of the upper class.
But what the heck happened to those restless whites champing at the bit to overthrow the foul economic regime? They step higher by stepping on the black man's back. But that was happening anyway, right? The leftist dream was to bring poor whites and blacks together in a shared class consciousness to fight "the man." But was it true that the poor whites and blacks were on the verge of "getting together?" They kept guns away from blacks as they always had, and they did not keep guns away from whites. This was not gun control; it was control of blacks by a white population that was generally racist, rich and poor.
Then he continues with the "when did you stop beating your wife" argument...
He KNOWS it's utterly buffoonish to equate raising taxes to sharecropping or slavery and makes a point of disassociating himself from the equation--but then makes it anyway by saying that the equation he's just disavowed has a "certain worrisome validity to it." What validity?
Then on to "suspect categories."
First of all, gun control is not a "suspect category" like race, gender, or religion. It's not even the same type of thing. Race, gender, and religion inhere in people. They are traits or beliefs. Gun control is none of those things. The fact that blacks were controlled by lethal force isn't news; that control quite obviously depended on depriving blacks of lethal force. And? This is almost like saying that Roman galley slaves used oars, therefore using oars to row a boat harkens back to slavery. You become slave-like when you pick up an oar.
Here's maybe a better analogy: The practice of redlining. Keeping blacks out of certain neighborhoods. You could call it a perverse kind of zoning. However, getting rid of redlining didn't mean that the practice of zoning per se became a "suspect category" and isn't one that serves people of all colors when applied across the board. When you do away with redlining, you don't really want to do away with zoning, even though redlining was an informal, maybe formal, form of zoning that used to oppress certain groups of people. The rules of real estate kept Jews out of New Canaan when my parents moved to CT, but getting rid of that rule with a sordid past didn't mean folks, including Jews, wanted to get rid of all rules, e.g., the two-acre zoning requirement.
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 10:21pm
The other thing to note about Cramer is that when he's not arguing against gun control, he's arguing for involuntary commitment of the mentally ill. He connects these two issues by noting that killings, especially mass killings, are often committed by mentally unstable people who should never have been let de-institutionalized.
But, ironically, the same Cramer who conflates any sort of gun control with disarming the people and speaks fearfully of all government tyranny...is very happy indeed for the government to decide who is sane and who is not and who, therefore, should be locked up in a mental hospital against his own will.
I think AA pointed out something about this elsewhere...
But this is a startling contradiction. If the government can be trusted to know who is out of his mind and who isn't, why can't it be trusted to know who shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun or trusted to maintain a list of gun owners much as it maintains a list of car owners?
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 10:28pm
Are you for real? Who should be entrusted to keep society safe from the criminally insane?
BTW is it that difficult for you or other to give the nearest ftn # so we can read for ourselves what the author said?
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 10:42pm
All the quotes are from the article you posted, R.
You don't recognize them?
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 8:36am
I thought it would be considerate to others, who haven't read the article Instead of others, just taking your word for what it said or you might have taken out of context.
Especially if your going to cut and paste and the ftn # are clearly in the article. Why are you hiding them?
by Resistance on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 10:58am
Fellow Daggers, anyone who wants to read Cramer's article in toto, including the footnotes, can go above to the link Resistance provided.
You can then decide whether my lengthy quotes were taken out of context or otherwise manipulated by me to turn their sense inside out.
Both of my posts above are based on Cramer's article, and Resistance's interpretation of them as posted above.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 11:22am
What's your answer?
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 8:37am
“Blind to instances of unnecessary police brutality”
The Second Amendment: Toward an Afro-Americanist - Const
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 6:14pm
Non sequitur obfuscation. There's no proof that if African Americans had guns they could have successfully defended themselves against the overwhelming numerical advantage of the whites who were also armed. No matter how many guns a group has it will not offset the numerical advantage of a larger group of well armed attackers. I suspect that after winning the gun battle the whites would have been so pissed even more African Americans would have been killed.
Please explain exactly how you think using AR-15's and fighting back against police abuse during the Selma to Montgomery marches would have advanced the cause of civil rights for African Americans.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 8:32pm
Go ahead and argue against the scholars who've done the research. I personally found the writers skills and knowledge on the subject, better than mine and probably better than most ....Anymore I don't care to get into speculations and arguments, that lead to the twisting my words or intent, which usually leads to abuse. Sorry
BTW of course theirs no proof , it wasn't allowed to occur. But ol John Brown had the whites scared though.
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 9:08pm
Your post is nothing but speculation. You speculate that if African Americans had guns they could have defended themselves. No one is arguing that blacks were oppressed, murdered in their homes, and lynched. But there is no proof that if they were armed they could have stopped it from happening. Your link doesn't offer that proof so I don't have to argue with their research. Its not speculation to state that No matter how many guns a group has it will not offset the numerical advantage of a larger group of well armed attackers.
You are not addressing any of my points. As I've also said in my personal experience protesting and reading about protest movements guns will do nothing to help secure our civil rights. Only non violent resistance and voting will do that.
Look at the many advances in civil rights for African Americans. In no way would guns have helped the marchers of the Selma to Montgomery marches. In fact if they had used violence to fight back instead of non violent resistance they would have lost most of their public support and likely have lost in their pursuit of civil rights.
Please explain exactly how you think using AR-15's and fighting back against police abuse during the Selma to Montgomery marches would have advanced the cause of civil rights for African Americans?
If we want to protect our civil liberties and stop police abuse we must protest and vote. If there isn't enough popular support for change no amount of guns will help those protesting win. If there is sufficient popular support guns aren't needed, in fact use of guns will erode popular support.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 9:17pm
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 10:23pm
These are reasonable points.
However, this is buffoonish and depends on a willful ignorance of the history...
Had "its adherents," eh? Like THE most important civil rights leader and movement of the time? The one who achieved the most by everyone's reckoning?
Why doesn't he just come out and say...Martin Luther King?
Perhaps because King's well-recognized stature and accomplishments in civil rights would diminish the force of Cottrol's argument.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 12:15pm
Again, I guess it's just too much to ask, that you be courteous and put the page # or closest Ftn # , if you're going to argue or mock the author of the article. The author of the article may have cited other sources that would easily rebuff your mocking. Hmmmm maybe that is why you don't include them?
by Resistance on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 4:40pm
You sound bound and determined to alienate the one commenter left at Dagblog who was still trying to treat your ill-thought out arguments respectfully. He gave that article a considerable amount of time and thoughtful analysis, far more than you did. I can't believe how patient he has been with you and how much time he spends on what you just flippantly throw out there.
Here's how I see your complaint: Resistance links to an article as if it means something inmportant to him and proves something, but can't really remember what it says that well, not enough to defend it in entirety. When Peter reads it carefully and analyzes it, Resistance basically says he doesn't know the article that well and requests pointers.
by artappraiser on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 4:57pm
Thank you. It's nice that you noticed.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 4:58pm
I believe it is a courtesy to readers of scholarly works, to have foot notes for ease of reference. I read many things but unfortunately I don't have a perfect recall or photographic memory.
by Resistance on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 5:33pm
Well actually, it is too much to ask to be frank.
However, in at least two cases, the footnotes were part of the quotes I pulled, and those links work. One can click on numbers 37 and 38 and be taken to the cites.
Here's the one for 38...
"38. Thomas G. Walker, "Suspect Classifications", _Oxford Companion to the Supreme Court of the United States_, (New York, Oxford University Press: 1992), 848.
Do you think a bibliographic footnote provides illumination, okay.
In any event, as I said, no one is "hiding the footnotes." If anyone wants to read your entire article, which I did, they can. They can look at all the footnotes, and they can decide whether they agree with me or not.
However, for the most part, I was disagreeing with his conclusions, not with his history, and his conclusions were not footnoted. They wouldn't be.
In fact, if you look, he has numerous footnotes in the historical background section, but only three in the section where he draws his conclusions. And it's here where I was making my counter argument.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 5:11pm
Here's the whole section I'm calling the conclusion, footnotes and all:
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 5:13pm
Thank you.
Was it you that asked me about mental health and said the author brought it up? Unfortunately I don't have a good memory.
I liked the way he worded 37.
by Resistance on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 5:47pm
You don't need memory for that, it is only a few comments up on this subthread, last night, 2/23/2014 - 10:28 pm.
by artappraiser on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 6:49pm
This is just another non sequitur. I know what your game is and I'm not playing. You want to change the subject. I know it usually works for you. I have much I could say about your comment but whether or not some blacks in the south used guns for defense or some civil rights workers had body guards doesn't address the question.
Once again I ask you:
Please explain exactly how you think using AR-15's and fighting back against police abuse during the Selma to Montgomery marches would have advanced the cause of civil rights for African Americans?
You refuse to address the question because you know that violent resistance would have ended King's push for civil rights. Use of violence by King would have "justified" in the public's mind all the police abuse of African Americans. If we want to protect our civil liberties and stop police abuse we must protest and vote. If there isn't enough popular support for change no amount of guns will help those protesting win. If there is sufficient popular support guns aren't needed, in fact use of guns will erode popular support.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 1:37pm
There is a difference between self-defense and insurrection and Resistance knows this. Riots are contained and burn out.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 2:30pm
Or between self defense working to make fundamental change.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 3:08pm
and Resistance knows this
I'm not so sure of that. He always just grabs any argument he can (often without checking the nuance of things he links to.) Logic is not what it's about, the primacy of guns as a civil right over everything else is the program; just throw it all out there, and see what sticks, often historical quotes out of context, and even nonsense.
Overall, there is a fervent unwavering belief that in protecting gun ownership, everything else just (as in "justice") will follow, and one cherry picks as best one can according to the best of one's ability along those fundamentalist belief lines. The world according to guns. As I said elsewhere recently, the NRA does it far better.
by artappraiser on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 3:30pm
Malcolm X believed in self-defense. The Deacons for Defense and Justice believed in self-defense. Both faced FBI intimidation. Neither Malcolm or the Deacons mounted an armed revolt against the US government. Malcolm was killed by gunfire as was the pacifist, Martin Luther King Jr,
During the riots in the 1960s, a significant percentage of the Black community was confined to ghettoes. The rioting was confined to Black neighborhoods. If there were firearms used on large scale, it would have been easy to isolate the Black community.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 9:54pm
What does this guy think? That if the Civil Rights Act is repealed, blacks will be able to protect themselves against re-segregationist moves...with guns? Doesn't he know that all those racist whites who are doing things like making it harder to vote right now ALSO have a deep attachment to their firearms? And when the two sides battle it out, who's going to win, do you think?
Game this out for me? How is this supposed to work, exactly?
Maybe because...
• Right now, there is no shortage of guns in the ghetto and easy access, and no one's being protected by it. Folks are getting killed by all them guns.
• If all them guns already in the ghetto are killing ghetto residents, then how does adding more guns to that situation portend fewer deaths?
Again, game this out for me...
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 9:45pm
The NRA is in bed with the government and gun sellers. Meanwhile, it has fooled gun-lovers into thinking it is on their side.
by Verified Atheist on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 4:49pm
You're generally very sensitive to the actions of the plutocrats controlling the lives of the common man. And yet here, with the NRA, you seem utterly blind to the fact that the NRA is nothing more than a corporate lobby whose sole purpose is to the line the pockets of gun manufacturers who cannot, for reasons of PR, step into the limelight themselves.
And no party has been more pro-NRA and vice versa than the party of Dick Cheney and George W. Bush. If there's anyone less concerned about government power than these two, he hasn't been born yet. And yet these guys and their compatriots walk hand in hand with the NRA.
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 10:12pm
It's been said; it's better to go with the devil you know. The right doesn't come after the Second Amendment as the left does and that scares the heck out of the advocates of the Second Amendment,
If gun manufacturers want to support a cause that enriches them, WOW!!! should I be surprised that both sides have their benefactors in a Capitalist system ?
Instead of self protection we could put more police on the streets, and that would surely enrich a bureaucracy, with layer upon layer, needing more tax revenue.
WOW someone could get rich. "Hey Detroit, how about another layer of costs to be added to your already bankrupt city". A little cut here and there and you just might find the money for more police and their managers.
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 11:00pm
At this point, the only purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to make gun manufacturers rich. It certainly isn't keeping anyone safe from harm or tyranny. Nor are all the guns in the ghetto keeping black people safe from harm, as those two black scholars argue.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 8:41am
I disagree with you in terms of vocabulary but not sentiment:
by Verified Atheist on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 4:48pm
Wow. I really don't recognize this description of the SFPD, with whom I have had my share of interaction.
Disclaimer: I have been in exile from my beloved city for a long time, and I hear bad things about the changes there (commented upon in the article by the author quoting the hostility he evoked when his start-up status was revealed.
Now, I will admit, that when the cops tell me to do something, it get's done pronto--when they say "show me your hands" I show them hands with five spread fingers....jus' sayin'.
I have been held at gunpoint after climbing into the back of my own car at 3 am, and the outcome was (as my presence here to relate the tale) ultimately without incident, even though the cops pulled up info that I had been busted two decades earlier with an unlicensed firearm.
I'm surprised to hear this story, even with the recurrent points of potentially difficult interaction.
Maybe the current PD is not the PD of my yout'.
Edit to add: I lived over two strip clubs on Broadway, and I saw more than one jaywalker end up in the van bound for jail because he couldn't keep his mouth shut when the cop started writing him the $181.00 ticket . This would usually be at 2 10AM , shortly after the uncivilized early hour at which bars close in Cali. The night shift cops, especially in North Beach or SOMA (where the instant story occurred) are used to dealing with the drunk and disorderly and are perhaps a little hair-trigger about compliance.
by jollyroger on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 4:50pm
I was once given a ticket for jaywalking.
About $35 as I recall way back in the 1970s.
It was about 3am, and a friend I were deep in conversation over the meaning of a paragraph in Hegel's Phenomenology of Mind as we walked from somewhere to somewhere else.
There was so little traffic that we could have sat down in the middle of the street and rested our dogs as we conversed.
No traffic in either direction on either of the crossing streets.
So naturally, we didn't see the motorcycle cop hidden between two parked cars. He had a broad grin as he wrote out our tickets and dropped that he'd just come from a double homicide ten minutes before in some remote part of the city. The life of a cop.
Though startled by his suddenly walking up to us, I had the presence of mind to change my address by one digit.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 9:58pm
In a somewhat different slant, if I come to a dead quiet intersection at 3 am with a cop in sight, I patiently await the green, as I consider it disrespectful to cross when right in view (recognizing that this was not the case in your story...)
edit to add: the reason I know its a 181 fine is that's what a cop told the the last time I crossed against a red within sight of one...he didn't ticket me, btw, just mentioned how much it would have been...that was SF...
by jollyroger on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 10:11pm
I totally agree.
It would be rude, because you'd sort of be daring him to be an asshole even if he didn't want to be. Forcing him to choose between doing his duty and being a decent person.
Not right.
In yet another slant, very tangentially related, one of the most famous envelope headlines in the annals of direct marketing history was selling subscriptions to Psychology Today. It read:
Do You Close The Bathroom Door Even When You're Home Alone?
Another, even better one, had a picture of Hitler on the envelope and posed a scenario in which you, the reader, are a shrink in Germany right after WWI, and a young man named Adolf Hitler comes to you complaining of obsessive thoughts about ruling the world and exterminating half of it. What do you do?
I'm working from memory here, but the set up was very convincing and was, of course, continued inside...
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 10:37pm
World class level police brutality, Maricopa County, Arizona:
A 44 year old mentally challenged veteran is picked up outside a convenience store by county cops, on their own initiative-no citizen complaints- the guy is basically taken into custody, and murdered, all recorded on cop video.
He had the shit beaten out of him by 8 uniformed cops, was tased, stripped naked and thrown into a cell, dead.
Article and the police station video at ACLU link. The family has, as far as I can find out, refused a $1/2 million settlement, asking $20 million. County police are run by the notorious Joe Arpaio, (R).
by NCD on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 11:48pm
Hold out for the skin of Arpaio, flayed (slowly, over the course of several days) in a public celebration
Sometimes, ya just gotta get medieval...
by jollyroger on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:00am
San Francisco Police Officer Pride Alliance
That's float #50 in the 2013 Gay Pride Parade...This is San Francisco, people, not Selma, Alabama.
Jus' sayin"
Edit to add: Don't accuse me of reverse hetism stereotyping. Yes, you bet your best pair of assless chaps, I expect that my gay brothers who are cops are slower with the brutality...call me biased.
by jollyroger on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 8:44pm
As the article notes, many of the cops are pissed they can't afford to live in SF (even though this guy was living with what, 15 other people? hardly a wealthy move-in)
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 2:35am
I can sympathize--I'm pissed that I can't live in SF...
by jollyroger on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 2:42am
Whether or not one looks at this as "police abuse" . . .
When police or fire personnel on scene tell you to leave, or get out of the way... Don't say one word, just LEAVE or GET OUT OF THE WAY!
If this poor soul had thought the following at the time of the street incident he surely would not have been thinking this in his jail cell.
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 12:57am
John Adams and the Boston Massacre | American Civil Liberties Union
"With a public enraged by what they saw as an act of brutality by their British occupiers"
https://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-immigrants-rights-racial-justice/know-your-rights-what-do-if-you
by Resistance on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 1:52am
Except the police aren't a foreign occupying power...
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 8:44am