MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
...While hundreds of thousands are being brutally massacred in Syria, Iraq, Libya, East Africa and elsewhere, there are no serious street demonstrations, few outraged headlines in the international media and barely a whimper from such institutions like the extremely ill-named United Nations Human Rights Council....When Muslims kill hundreds of thousands of other Muslims it does not raise an eyebrow among these keffiyeh-wearing fascists, but when Jews kill Muslims it is “genocide” and a “crime against humanity”...Since....1948, around 12 million Muslims have been killed in violent wars and conflicts. Over ninety per cent have been killed by other Muslims, and less than one tenth of one per cent were killed in the context of the Arab-Israeli conflict..
This is exactly the point I have made about the glaring double standards in condemning Israel in it's painful, difficult task of routing out the ruthless Gaza terrorists whose stated mission is the extermination of Israel. Casualties are far, far lower than 'the norm' for wars or violent clashes in the Middle East. Israel could have had far less troops killed if they had used more heavy ordnance, and also if they didn't announce what part of Gaza they were going into next (allowing civilians to leave). The author also points out the 'civilian', 'combatant' casualty figures used by the UN come mostly from Hamas sources in Gaza, and are not at all to be trusted to be accurate.
Comments
I agree with the part of the editorial that basically argues that a dangerous and growing religious war is going on that is spreading worldwide (see for example this Monday NYTimes story on India here), a sort of Osama bin Laden wet dream, which is aided significantly and fueled by agitprop. And that seculars in the west who ignore this do so at peril to their own culture. And perhaps even aid the enemies of their own culture and beliefs, certainly they do so when they laud or make excuses for leaders of groups like Hezbollah and Hamas.
But I also feel that the Netanyahu way of fighting this is pretty much the same as the George Bush way: counterproductive to the max. And that's where I strongly disagree with the editorial.
As someone who followed the whole "jihad" thing several years before 9/11, I felt the same way the minute I first read of George Bush's Pre-Emptive doctrine, spread across the front page of the New York Times. I screamed: noooooo! That's exactly what bin Laden wants! And went in search of newly popular political blogs to find discussion. What I found was what I see happening deja vus allover again: the incredible heaviness of counterproductive action, how it turns people into idiots working against their own best interests. That people aren't capable of despising two ideologies at the same time, it seems, that even lefties fall for the George Bush line: you're either with us or against us. So you would see so many making George Bush into the devil incarnate on nearly every point to the point of serious mental illness, and at the same time making every excuse for jihadis of all ilks and supporting them to the point of self-hating nonsense. And now again. Israel: bad doesn't necessarily have to mean Hamas:good. They can't see that the idiotic reactions of the Bush's and Netanyahu's of the world doesn't mean that those that the Bush's and Netanyahu's are fighting are worthy of their support, but are instead, dangerous to support.
I see it as a political or sports model sadly being applied to everything. Everything has to be put into Manichean camps. As if the human brain is not capable of nuance, as if passion about something cannot be raised unless its in the context of a sports contest or political camps.
(By the way, this is also why I was so severely disturbed by the whole year of the Hillary vs. Obama invasion at TPMCafe. I see this whole type of thing as "bread and circuses" I think this sort of distraction can be very dangerous in itself. And it is indeed a tactic used by "terrorists," get the emotions riled until the camps start spending all their time fighting each other.)
Within this context, I found the developments in Egypt over the past few years incredibly fascinating. There, somehow, some way, a large segment of the population turned against "the terrorists." And when they did so, they weren't talking about Israel, fancy that. Israel's current government might indeed deserve the label of "terrorist," but there are others that also deserve that label, and make no mistake, they are enemies of "the west" and modern life in general. Israel, for the most part, is not.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/05/2014 - 1:58am
The editorial is similar to what one hears in the United States regarding Black people. "Why are Black people outraged by the killing of Trayvon Martin or Eric Garner, but silent on the killing of Blacks by other Blacks. The truth is that Blacks do protest Black on Black crime, it just doesn't make the newscasts". There is a horrendous murder rate of Black youth in Chicago, Leaders including Jesse Jackson have led protests, The charge remains that Blacks are silent.
Edit to add: the news cameras came to see the outrage when Chicago teen Hadiya Pendleton was murdered by a Black gang member only because they could make a connection to President Obama's "nearby" home. The media does not give a damn about the ongoing pleas for help in quelling the violence. Blacks are not silent, the media doesn't care.
In the Middle East governments have been toppled by citizens fed up with abuse. The Muslim Brotherhood was found unworthy and protests brought that government down. The Arab Spring did not bring the desired results, but one cannot say that Muslims have been silent on the issue of murderous Muslim governments.
The argument made by the editorial seems similar to one made by Conservatives about Blacks. It is essentially that Blacks should not complain about being murdered by police because Blacks are murdering themselves. Israelis cannot argue that there should be not complaints about the toll of the war on Palestinians because "Muslims" are killing themselves.
i think the United States population is reaching a point where they see no benefit in trying to broker peace with an Israeli government that has had little respect for Presidents and citizens of the United States. The images of the damage done by the Israeli government using US missle technology solidifies that belief.
Boco Horam is evil. The Muslim Brotherhood was murderous. That does not mean that the citizens of the United States support a slaughter. Israel will have to find another way out of this. An editorial suggesting that it is open season on Palestinians because Muslims don't value Muslim lives does not make Israel look good.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 08/05/2014 - 8:41am
Morsi's government wasn't brought down by protests; it was brought down by a military coup.
by Aaron Carine on Tue, 08/05/2014 - 3:20pm
The Brotherhood lost the trust of the people, giving the military an opening. The point is that Muslims were protesting about abuse by other Muslims in a number of states.
if Palestinians need a Martin Luther King Jr or a Gandhi, so do the Israelis.
I don't see a solution here, Palestinians feel trapped. Israelis feel threatening. But parties can quickly source historic reasons for the hatred of the other.
I think that many in the United States are getting that eerie feeling that citizens had watching Bull Connor unleash police dogs and fire hoses on children. It is going to fall on the United States to pay for rebuilding Gaza. We will send it medical aid and building material. It is very likely that Israeli construction companies will gain some of the profit. Along with supporting rebuilding Gaza, the United States will be sending more missiles to Israel in preparation for the next round of destruction. It is a Moebius strip.
If those in Gaza feel trapped, they will continue to fight. Those in the West Bank will feel that they have gained no freedom by being "good" and they will look to a Hamas style leadership. With no true freedom, what do those in the West Bank really have to lose?
Can you talk me down from my pessimism?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 08/05/2014 - 3:37pm
I've read many of your comments on this subject, rmrd, and I appreciate your clarity. You have an interesting way of trying to address the "bigger picture", which I find refreshing and thought-provoking. Please consider writing a post.
by barefooted on Tue, 08/05/2014 - 4:17pm
Thanks , but I'm just an observer. The discussion has altered my reading schedule. My next selection is going to be 1949 about the first Israelis and then 1967 about the six day war.
I have both Jewish and Muslim acquaintances. Jews feel that the land was paid for in blood. Muslims feel that the land was stolen. I feel capable of making personal observations, but would have to do much more study to offer a post that would be of value in this area.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 08/05/2014 - 4:39pm
Sorry rmrd, there is no parallel between cops/blacks, Israel/Gaza etc. The analogy lacks any real relevance.
(1) Israel is a sovereign state acting to protect itself from organized self proclaimed terrorists who are trying to kill it's citizens. Israel is not randomly gunning down Arab citizens of Israel. (Israel proper does have Arab citizens, and reps in the parliament)
(2) Muslim on Muslim crime in the Middle East is not random neighborhood gang violence like in Chicago. It is the work of war between sovereign states, proxy wars run by governments, armed and organized ethnic or ideological groups with funding from outside nations, or organized terrorists using military weaponry and controlling territory, cities and even regions.
Bottom line is Muslims have demonstrated, from Pakistan to Libya, a penchant for senseless violence, and a lack of respect or compassion for the lives of others, even fellow Muslims. Israel has shown restraint and has sacrificed it's own to save the lives of non-combatants.
Along this line, the video taken today just before the truce, showed Hamas low lifes setting up and then firing a missile at Israel from behind the press hotel in Gaza, a highly populated area full of non-combatants. NYT link They don't care about endangering the lives of innocents. Israel does.
by NCD on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 12:56am
Over a thousand dead noncombatants, in retaliation for rocket attacks that didn't kill anyone, is restraint? Hardly.
The IDF has hit hospitals and ambulances, hit schools whose location they had been informed of, and killed twenty-six people, only one of them a Hamas member, in an attack on a house. This is not evidence that the IDF is trying to "save the lives of noncombatants". If we want to go back in time, we could talk about the aerial bombardment of civilians in Lebanon, or the massacres at Dawayima, Safsaf, Quibya, Kafr Kassem, Khan Yunis, and Rafah. Check out the 1984 edition of David Hirst's The Gun and the Olive Branch, in which he cites an interview with IDF Chief of Staff Mordechai Gur, who said it was a policy to target civilians.
by Aaron Carine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 2:00am
Hamas propaganda. They are a criminal terrorist organization. In case you are unaware, Hamas:
(1) Tunnels under hospitals, schools, mosques and civilian infrastructure.
(2) UNRWA returns intact Hamas missiles stored in schools, hospitals or mosques to Hamas, which is the 'local civilian authority'. UNRWA depends on Hamas for casualty figures.
(3) Hamas fires missiles from near hotels, hospitals, mosques ans schools, See video link above.
by NCD on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 1:27pm
If Muslims are that evil is the solution eradication of the Muslims?
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 8:02am
You must have a few cogs loose. Stick to the facts.
by NCD on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 1:37pm
You are not viewing this from the standpoint of people who have limited access to goods and the normal pleasures of life. They ca n only leave through checkpoints. During the best days, electricity did not last the entire day, Now thee is sewage in the water and streets. Once you have created the sense that things are hopeless, oppressed people have nothing to lose.this sense hit Gaza, the West Bank will be next.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 10:52am
Respectfully, none of us here, including you, is capable of viewing this from the standpoint of a Gazan . I would submit to you that there is a real issue about how Hamas will fare in the long-term for this. You seem to be assuming by some formula what the result of all of this carnage will be, and in particular that it will cause the people of Gaza to continue to embrace Hamas.
Among other things, don't forget that there are quite a few countries in that region that were de facto supporters of Israel during this conflict. Most of the outrage for Israel's alleged atrocities came from the West, and places like Turkey (where Erdogan is using Jew hate in his campaign to be elected president of Turkey). That this is not given consideration by so many is a mistake I think, first and foremost as a matter of American geopolitical considerations in the next several decades.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 11:07am
I don't see a scenario where Israel actually gains in trying to secure peace in Gaza. I think I can understand how someone whose home was bombed by another country might feel. The remembered images will be of maimed Palestinian children and flattened homes and hospitals.
i don't see how Netanyahu can be viewed as a viable option to negotiate peace with any Palestinian either in Gaza or The West Bank. I see a generation of Palestinian children who have clear reasons to hate Jews. I see a generation of Jewish children who had to hide under school desks during rocket attacks who have reasons to hate Palestinians. The violence cycle continues.
We are back at square one. Islamists have gained another recruiting tool. The US will fund more missiles for Israel and food for Gaza.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 11:52am
At least digging their tunnels and smuggling and firing their missiles at Israel keeps the Gaza terrorists from turning once again on each other.
I see a generation of Palestinians (& Libyans, Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqi's, Pakistani's, Afghani's...) who want to live in Italy, France, Sweden the US or London, and get away from the Jihadists.
I see Israel doing what is necessary to reduce the capacity of Gaza terrorists to attack Israelis.
by NCD on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 1:48pm
Necessary, I do agree, but not sufficient. Now is what counts. . .again.
Edited to add this by Leon Wieseltier, which I think makes the point about the future, and also capsulates what he calls the "disquiet" I've been feeling over what has happened in Gaza:
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 2:32pm
Israelis can be partly excused for callousness about Palestinian lives, because Palestinian terrorism has made them feel that way. But then we have to make the same allowances for Palestinian support for terrorism, because death and misery has made them feel that way.
by Aaron Carine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 8:58pm
From commentary I've seen, Palestinian expatriates focus their anger on Israel not Hamas. It may be that they felt hemmed in by sanctions placed by Israel.
http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/society/palestinians-in-the-uae-sadden...
Neither Likud or Hamas appears capable of creating a solution. We be back here again
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 2:19pm
I'm not trying to invent reasons for optimism, but I don't think we have any idea how this will pan out right now, and I think it's a mistake to simply extrapolate from a current snapshot of Gazan support for Hamas. Not saying the current temperature is meaningless, of course.
Meant expat, sorry.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 2:33pm
I guess I understand your analogy, but I just don't think it does justice to the genuine issue that this piece raises. And if love for this country is a measure of whether we should support another country, there is no country (I think) that loves America more than Israel does. If you're upset about the lack of respect for the president and secretary of state, I can understand that I guess.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 10:23am
When one looks at comments Netanyahu made about Clinton and now about Obama, along with his obvious preference for Romney, this may be a Netanyahu specific malaise, However the Israeli press response to Kerry suggests that the love is only there if the United States just shuts up and forks over the weapons and money. There has to be a more open dialog than "our way or the highway."
The Middle East is undergoing alteration and it is not clear where things will settle out. The images of US built missiles landing on Palestinian homes places the United States in an awkward position with Muslim countries.
I don't see any future but a flare up in the West Bank with the Palestinian Authority swept aside because it will essentially be viewed as a tool of Israel. The Palestinians feel oppressed.
http://m.thenation.com/article/180887-another-intifada-possible-west-bank
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 10:47am
I think I've been reading press reports excessively closely and I don't agree with you that the attitude of Israelis is "shut up and fork over the money." I don't understand Hebrew, but I'm fairly certain about this.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 11:43am
Just to elucidate this a bit more, even Israeli political commentators on the left, such as Haaretz's Barak Ravid have expressed frustration with both Kerry and the president (having nothing to do with money).
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 12:13pm
But it becomes circular, Congress is hard-wired to forward the money. It is in US national interest to try to broker a peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Israel, including those on the left., told Obama and Kerry to but out. The money will continue to flow making the US. A full partner to the destruction to follow.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 12:14pm
I felt the same way one someone commented about a lull in Gaza coverage here. Yes, we were were deficient on Gaza, but we were deficient on international events as general, as we tend to be in general. Why, I wondered, is Gaza the benchmark? Not Syria or Iraq or even Ukraine?
That said, Gaza is nonetheless an important and terrible story. I haven't written on it because I don't even know what to write and have so little time, but I just posted a heartrending personal account of the war by a Palestinian novelist in Gaza.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 08/05/2014 - 2:52pm
First, it isn't true that the world has been silent about Syria. Second, the whole "bad things are happening elsewhere" meme doesn't explain why we shouldn't care about the Palestinians. People aren't required to give equal time to every crisis; they can focus on whatever crisis they choose. Also, since the United States is providing the weapons, it makes sense to be more concerned about this than about violence that the United States isn't implicated in.
by Aaron Carine on Tue, 08/05/2014 - 10:11pm
Silent, no. Muted, yes. No one here suggested that we shouldn't care about the Palestinians, but it is nonetheless an interesting sociological question about why Gaza so overshadows Syria, given that the tragedy in Syria is so much greater. US support for Israel does not explain the difference.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 08/05/2014 - 11:31pm
In Syria, there does not appear to be a good side to choose. In Palestine. The US is directly supplying the weapons of destruction. The US will in all likelihood be involved in helping to rebuild Gaza.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 8:08am
This Robert Mackey story implies ithere's a newly sophisticated agitprop war that Netanyahu's Israel is losing:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/06/world/middleeast/indian-tv-crew-shows-...
And in this vein, it's useful to remember how long Hamas and Hezbollah have fueled a martyr culture--long, long before anything like Al Qaeda existed. So among the people under their yolk, there's minimal harm or foul. Netanyahu's Israel allowing itself to be egged into making more martyrs in this way is very counter-productive indeed. I realize that Israel under many leaders has long desired to be seen as being fearlessly aggressive in protecting itself and is willing to leave behind the "winning hearts and minds" stuff when doing so. But here it seems to cross the line over into just plain aiding the enemy.
My reaction includes this specificity: maybe Israel's military leaders aren't anywhere near what they have been cracked up to be. Even within the context of presuming military action righteous if that is your opinion, there should be someone with a few more smarts leading this thing than those falling for what they are falling for. Infowar has always been a significant part of being a military planner.
by artappraiser on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 3:20am
I would say that the agitprop war was lost by Israel in most places years ago, and it is happening here in the US now too. I don't think there is any question about that. Of course, domestically, in Israel there has been almost universal support for the decisions made by Netanyahu this summer. That will undoubtedly change over the next several weeks as those to his right interfere with what many Israelis will see as an opportunity to work productively with the Palestinian Authority.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 10:46am
It may be that by actually sitting at the table at a neutral site, Israel could get Hamas to address publicly that it wants to eradicate Jews. By directly confronting Hamas, Israel could force the world to take a second look at the war.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/print/2014/08/what-would-hamas-...
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 4:17pm
I don't think that sitting at the table with Hamas is at all a real issue now. The issue is whether Hamas is willing to subordinate its status and recognize international conditions for being a partner at the bargaining table. One can argue the bargaining merits of face to face talks at this point, but the folks in Cairo, including Turkey, Qatar, and the PA factions are proceeding in this mediation format -- which is hardly unusual in bargaining.
If the world doesn't want to take seriously the charter of Hamas, which calls for the murder of Jews the world over, then I hardly think sitting across the table for the cameras is going to change things. Here's Jeffrey Goldberg on Hamas, and what it stands for (and frankly why most of our allies in the Arab world have rejected the organization):
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 4:31pm
Uh
That's the exact article I linked to!
We have been replaying the same scene with Israeli leaders talking about Hamas attacks
We see Gaza destruction
Egypt or some other country speaks for Hamas
Rinse repeat
Show Hamas leadership on camera and let them explain their charter publicly.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 6:50pm
Maybe you're right. I have no problems with giving them access to the press.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 6:55pm
Should add that it's the PA that is representing the Palestinians in Cairo, not the Egyptians. There are representatives of Hamas and Islamic Jihad on the Palestinian negotiating team.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 7:28pm
Allowing Hamas to represent Gaza and speak openly to the press is the best way to cause a loss of respect and a meltdown. Most fanatics cannot hide their true agenda.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 8:57pm
There are any number of reasons -- rational and sinister -- here and overseas for the more intensive focus on Gaza, But, here in America, we have a special bond with Israel (or we used to) and like it or not we are its principal benefactor and ally and protector. We have reason to focus on this conflict.
Of course, this doesn't settle things. We've also invested quite a bit of blood and treasure in Iraq, and right now there is real ethnic cleansing, real genocide taking place there, just north of Baghdad (against Christians, Assyrians, and other ancient ethnic minorities). For whatever reason, it just feels so remote. But who can dispute that it is our footprint (one made not only by George Bush and his crew) that helped to pave the way for what is happening now?
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 10:42am
I think Friedman was good on this whole theme yesterday. And that he is right that doing better by the PA is an important key.
One sideline point that stands out for me in what you are saying and what he is saying but which neither of you stress is the difference between religiously driven tribes and ethnic tribes. Religion and religious culture is a choice, though many argue that that choice is a human right as well.
Friedman implies the question: what ever happened to Arab pride? That it seems everyone in Arab countries wants Muslim pride instead now, whatever flavor of Muslim they happen to be promoting. Isn't this the point where rmrd's comparison to racism against African-Americans fails some? Because it's no one's choice what ethnicity they were born with.
My brain is a little too tired and addled to elaborate on this too much right now. Just find it intriguing, and think maybe it's not as much "off topic" as it first appears. Yes, the worst horrors can happen with ethnic tribalism--see Rwanda for one example. But separation of church and state still stands out as one of the most laudable ideas of all time....cue Israel....clue for Israel?..
I might return to one of my favorite talking points--the original "two state solution": the creation of Pakistan on the basis of religious tribe...
by artappraiser on Wed, 08/06/2014 - 11:44pm
If I am understanding you to say that the flaw is that Muslim religion rather than Arab ethnicity has become the focus. Isn't the Israeli point of view a religious rational for why this particular land is theirs?
From the Friedman article
Religion used as a rallying cry for hatred is not uncommon. There were Protestants versus Catholics in Ireland, for example. In the United States, both sides used Scripture to justify their rationale for the Civil War. Baptists and Methodists split over the issue of Slavery here in the United States.
Colonial powers may have just delayed Middle Eastern Sunni versus Shi'a conflicts that were bound to happen as a normal course of human nature.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 8:30am
Isn't the Israeli point of view a religious rational for why this particular land is theirs?
The short answer is hardly.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 10:39am
Your comment reminded me of this recent piece by former Israeli Ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, on zionism. I would not expect you to agree with Oren on everything (I don't), but I think it's a fairer and more complete picture than one you seem to take from Friedman's reference to what some Jewish extremist wrote or said. Heaven forbid we are judged as Americans by our least common denominators. In any event, here's a snippet for your consideration.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 10:54am
I think a major difference between Zionism and (most) other types of nationalism, is that Israel is a relatively new creation. When it was founded, the creation of a Jewish state required the displacement of many of the non-Jewish people currently living where they wanted to create that Jewish state.
I do believe that makes it unique, but I could be convinced otherwise.Note that I'm not defending attacks against Israel, just pointing out that its creation is unusual, if not unique. Naturally, if we look at the founding of nations as a justification for their existence, ours (the US) is not without serious ethical issues, nor is probably any other nation, if you dig back far enough. As I mentioned earlier, the fact that (modern) Israel is a relatively modern creation makes its founding easier to argue about. I hope its clear by what else I've written on the topic that I recognize this to be a very complicated question and have no idea what the solution is.Edit to strike out my comment that I believe the displacement of non-Jewish people makes it unique. Taken precisely, that's no doubt true, but displacement is probably not that unique, and possibly even displacement on the basis of religious grounds.
by Verified Atheist on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 11:25am
A lot of states exist on land that was taken from somebody. The difference is that most states did the conquering in a distant past, whereas the Palestinians were displaced in the 20th century, when international opinion was becoming more sympathetic to indigenous peoples. It used to be standard for land to be taken from people; now it isn't considered proper. Some people, including myself, are uncomfortable with a nationalism in which the state belongs to one ethnic or religious group, instead of to all the citizens. In this, however, Zionism isn't different from Arab nationalism, which is also exclusive.
by Aaron Carine on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 11:42am
Interesting analysis, and I certainly agree that displacement arising from the creation of Israel and the competing claims of two peoples -- and however displacement occurred -- is definitely a reason for the conflict's endurance. I was just responding to the notion that RM seemed to subscribe to that Israel's claim to the land is purely religious. Didn't mean to undermine the Palestinian narrative as such.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 11:46am
Israel is a state and thus has the option of state sanctioned defense. In this case they use US sullied weapons. An Israeli pose the question what right do the stateless Palestinians have to defend themselves? Let us suppose that a peer existed that agreed Israel had the right to exist and wanted its own weaponry to defend itself from encroachment by Israeli settlers and other intrusions, could Israel live with that.
The link to the article is provided below
http://theweek.com/article/index/265832/israel-has-the-right-to-defend-i...
As it stands now, Hamas wants to eradicate Israel and Likud does not believe in the two-state solution.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 12:09pm
Netanyahu says he is for a two-state solution, although he intends to keep a slice of the West Bank.
by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 2:46pm
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-finally-speaks-his-mind/
Edit to add
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 3:53pm
I'm somewhat skeptical of this article, because they attributed views to Netanyahu without actually quoting him saying these things. Bibi did say Israel would retain "security control" in the West Bank, which is ominous, but it doesn't necessarily rule out Palestinian statehood. Here is another interpretation of Netanyahu's remarks.
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5895567/netanyahu-this-is-why-israel-can-ne...
by Aaron Carine on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 5:44pm
I think the Palestinians see any Israeli role in security as a guarantee that Palestinians will be abused.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 6:48pm
The arrogance and exceptionalism shown by this author and others is to be expected today . Arabs and Africans are killing each other because they are lesser beings unlike the enlightened Westerners who set them against each other. We have been directly responsible for the deaths of about 20 million people since WW2 from our little wars but They are the "ruthless Fascists" threatening the Pax Amerikana.
Luckily for Them the Caliphate has returned and the Western imposed divisions and borders are falling. Once the degenerate Western influences are purged from the ME including the European penetration of settlers in Palestine the Arab World will be free to make their own decisions and mistakes. Neocolonialism and Capitalist penetration in Africa may be even more difficult to extricate but the Africans may join the Arabs in their own liberation.
I agree that the Israelis have shown some restraint but it has been for Western PR purposes and as the Caliphate expands and the threat becomes more real they will play their bloody role in Armageddon.
by Peter (not verified) on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 12:52am
Who is the real exceptionalist here? Isn't it exceptionalist to think they are idiots who aren't capable of avoiding being manipulated by Westerners into killing each other? Aren't you actually implying that Westerners are superior in capability by believing this happens? Arabs and Africans are so dumb that they are easily fooled into acting against their own best interests by Westerners? The poor dumb beasts who need your enlightened leftist protection? Next up: re-education camps for all!?
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 1:40am
The Brits were the masters of ,Divide and Rule, but the US has used this tool effectively as they did to instigate the Iraqi Civil War and more recently in Ukraine and Syria. Even educated people are caught up in this manipulation so your concern trolling is wasted.
You don't even have to leave the Homeland to experience this nasty business just look at the reaction to immigrants here, even helpless child refugees are attacked.
by Peter (not verified) on Fri, 08/08/2014 - 11:18am
Gazans may not be fond of the governance of Hamas, but they view the siege by Israel that keeps them trapped as the greater evil.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/07/the-gaza-paradox-hamas-...
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/07/2014 - 6:41pm
RM,
You may have already seen this article from the Atlantic by Hussein Ibish about the options that Hamas has at this juncture, but I think it's really worth a read. Also some interesting thoughts by Ibish about public support for Hamas in the short and long-terms in both the WB and Gaza.
by Bruce Levine on Fri, 08/08/2014 - 11:07am
Thanks for the link.
I think the response from former Ambassador Marc Ginsberg hits the right tone. Netanyahu's position is that Hamas cannot be at the negotiating table. He has also said that Abbas was not trustworthy. Hamas has forced the issue. Netanyahu has to strengthen Abbas by loosening the screws on the West Bank, and subsequently the Gaza.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amb-marc-ginsberg/can-gaza-ever-be-pacified_b_5659460.html
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 08/08/2014 - 9:14pm
It's the Rafah crossing to Egypt, under siege by Egypt and closed for a year, that is the main and primary 'Gateway to the world' for Gaza. Since Egypt is Muslim, Hamas doesn't fire missiles at them. No Jews, no outrage.
Jews always being a convenient target of hate.
Hamas wants an open border for one reason only, to ease import of weapons to strike Israel. Israel cannot negotiate peace or open borders with terrorists bent on her extermination. Egypt closed the Gaza border because Hamas was supporting terror attacks and murder of troops in Egypt.
If there are no protests over Hamas tactics in actively and intentionally bringing destruction on Gaza, it could be due to hate, ignorance, or the fate of those who Hamas believes oppose them.
by NCD on Fri, 08/08/2014 - 12:34pm
From your article on the Gateway
Abbas has to rely on funds from Israel to pay Palestinian Authority workers in Gaza. If funds are withheld because Hamas is in charge, it still gives the impression that the Palestinian Authority is incompetent.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 08/08/2014 - 2:39pm