The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age
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    Religious Leaders Want Theocracies

    By Michael Maiello on Wed, 09/30/2015 - 10:54pm | Politics

    A common answer to a liberal who objects that Pope Francis decided to meet privately with Kentucky County Clerk and homophobic bigot Kim Davis is that, hey, he's a Catholic and he doesn't support same sex marriage anyway, so what's the problem?

    In a sense, there is no problem. I fully expect that a radical cleric from Iran might have made the same decision. The objection from the left here is really that we were sold a kinder, gentler, progressive religious leader and what we got is what we should have expected, which is that religious leaders will pretty much always break your heart because, in the end, they are convinced they serve a higher purpose than democracy.

    That is, apparently, Francis' rationale for taking a meeting with the widely reviled woman,  Honestly, when I first saw the headline on TPM, I figured he took the meeting to try to convince her to lighten up or to find a better cause for her religious fervor.  But, no.  He went to console her and to defend the rights of people to raise religious objections to secular law.

    We have to state this very plainly: Francis believes that the right to object to same sex marriage, up to and including being a government official who refuses to grant them when the laws requires it, is a more fundamental human right than the rights of same sex couples to equal treatment under the law.  Fortunately, our democracy and courts say otherwise.

    Maybe it's time for progressives to be a little more skeptical of cuddly religious figures who say some of the right things (and softly couch the wrong things) while doing very little of what's necessary from our perspective. It's not like anyone asked the guy to endorse same sex marriage though, knowing that he would never do such a thing (maybe progressives should have greeted Francis less enthusiastically in the first place), but he certainly didn't have to meet with a notorious bigot.

    Or maybe he did.  Says The New York Times, Francis sought her out.  You don't call the Pope, the Pope calls you, I guess.  Think about it.  Of all the people he could have chosen to spend time with, that's who he picked. Given her warped belief system, the endorsement by Francis will do nothing but reinforce her prejudice.

    This really should disqualify Francis in the media as anything other than another religious extremist running a small, overseas autocracy, celebrating values that are incompatible with American life.

    Let's not be fooled again.  I'm looking at you, Dali Lama.  Not buying it.

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    Comments

    Agree 100%. In the Caliphate they believe that the Koran allows them to rape Yadzis, and crucify Christians. Restricting that 'religious right' would be seen as an infringement on their religious freedom.

    For such reasons the Founders 200+ years ago specifically separated religion from law and government. They had seen the results of religious wars, pogroms and intolerance.

    The woman has pre-printed pieces of government paper she registers. In ancient Palestine it might have the image of Caesar on it. As Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesars, render unto God what is Gods."


    by NCD on Wed, 09/30/2015 - 11:14pm

    Religion is a very personal thing. From watch I understand of the Catholic faith, the Pope is the earthly interpreter of God's word. Despite his position, American Catholics do not always fall into lockstep with Papal pronouncements. Catholics defy statements against the use of contraceptives. American Catholics challenged the Vatican to address and punish priests involved in pedophilia  and sexual,abuse. American nuns are protesting the fact that women cannot become priests. 

    The Pope was public on his stance on immigration and poverty. He reached out to Kim Davis and met with her in private because he knew the backlash he would face from American Catholics. The Pope may have given Catholics like Rick Santorum and Christians like Mike Huckabee some joy by confirming Papal homophobia, but he also disappointed many Catholics. We will see if there is any fallout. 

    American Catholics have demonstrated that they are independent thinkers. Similarly, Christians differ in their personal interpretations of the Bible. Some focus on words condemning homosexuality, others find words of not judging others and focusing on your own sins.

    The Pope did the meeting in secret, that speaks volumes.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 10/01/2015 - 8:04am

    The pope did the wrong thing when he met with Kim Davis.  But this bad act does not negate the good that his powerful and influential words on global warming and economic injustice are doing.  Like LBJ, who escalated in Vietnam while delivering on Civil Rights and the Great Society, the Pope's legacy will be mixed.  On balance though, I'll take the ugly of a sub rosa tete-a-tete with a hateful bigot if it also means lunches with the homeless instead of Congress, insistence that man has a non-negotiable duty to preserve the environment, and public shaming of large-living Cardinals and priests.


    by HSG on Thu, 10/01/2015 - 8:25am

    Remember the Speaker of the House invited the Pope here.  Davis was invited to the Values Summit Meeting as a special guest.  They probably even paid her way. I am sure the request for the Pope to see her and the Little Sisters of the Poor was from the office of the Speaker. 


    by trkingmomoe on Thu, 10/01/2015 - 9:27am

    The Catholic Church has always been about serving only one meal at a time. There is no ala carte menu. Pope Francis's emphasis on poverty and social injustice is not a new item but a dish the chef feels has been neglected.

    The clumsiness of meeting with Kim makes me wonder if the messages on this trip aren't really directed to the U.S. but are for the rest of the Church.


    by moat on Thu, 10/01/2015 - 9:58am

    Pope Francis met with a transgender man at his fiancé at the Vatican in January of this year. Perhaps to the Pope feels called to speak to bigots and those on the receiving end of bigotry.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/g-roger-denson/pope-francis-visit-to-a-t_b...


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 10/01/2015 - 4:34pm

    I'd be fine with that, were he called upon to tell the bigots to cool it, rather than consoling them.


    by Michael Maiello on Thu, 10/01/2015 - 6:40pm

    I don't care who the pope visits. I care about what he says during the visit and the public policy it implies. Forgiveness has always been Catholic doctrine. Any catholic can go to confession, admit their sins, do penance as assigned by the priests, and be forgiven with the admonition to sin no more. Francis emphasizes the forgiveness but the anti gay doctrine hasn't changed. It's still a sin and homosexuals are supposed to live a life of chastity.


    by ocean-kat on Thu, 10/01/2015 - 7:47pm

    I never got into the excitement over this new pope. He's a crazy fundamentalist just as crazy as the other fundamentalists. There's a half dozen issues I care about and on most of them I disagree with the fundamentalists. Nothing has really changed. Francis still believes all the same things about contraception, abortion, gays etc. He's just not talking about that much.

    Francis is just as much a fundamentalist as Benedict with a different focus. Doesn't make me like him any better. Just as Boehner is just as crazy as Gohmert but doesn't spout the extreme crazy talk. Doesn't make me like Boehner better.

    That being said here's an article that claims Francis was scammed into the meeting with Davis.


    by ocean-kat on Thu, 10/01/2015 - 6:56pm

    Well stated. The linked article is a good attempt to save the Pope's rear but the Pope could have just given the rosary and skipped the CO b.s. so I agree he is just another Catholic leader pining for the old days of the Inquisition.


    by NCD on Thu, 10/01/2015 - 7:26pm

    Thanks for the link,  I had not read Charley P. on this. I thought it might be either the Speaker's office or an inside job.  It turns out to be arranged by activist conservative Bishops and Cardinals who really did throw this political curve ball.  Same old Church just a different century.  

    The climate and poverty is a much more important issue then gay marriage. We will soon sweep Davis into the dustbin and get back to worrying about hunger, education, income gap, and putting a stop to fossil fuel emissions.  


    by trkingmomoe on Thu, 10/01/2015 - 7:55pm

    The Dalai Lama is just as against homosexuality and abortion as the Pope, but he giggles a lot and isn't Christian so progressives think he's cool. Bernie Sanders is pro-gun, whether heartfelt or political necessity from his state, but after yesterday's 45th shooting of the year, we can see it's a big problem. Still, he addresses a lot of other issues forcefully that are bigger problems, so I wouldn't throw him under the bus over 1 issue.

    The Pope has turned the focus of the church from these stupid personal litmus tests to taking care of the poor, the planet, justice. Whether he's "without sin" on some small issue or other, I dont care - he's a breath of fresh air, an ally.

    During the Kosovo War, Yeltsin sent ships to the Adriatic and took Pristina airport briefly. Conservatives were furious, but this was the most mild face-saving behavior Yeltsin could have done.

    Gay marriage is a direct strike against longstanding church doctrine, and the worst we can point to is the Pope met with some conscientious objector with no public statement? Let's contain our outrage. The Pope is running a huge organization with a vast public constituency. There is only so fast a tanker can turn.

    Someone pointed out people tend to think the Pope agrees with their position on gay marriage, whether for or against, so someone's wrong. But I hear his message of economic justice, that women aren't required to be God's breeding machines, that the planet's ecology is part of our ministry on earth, that casting weapons about the earth is evil and enabling evil, that it's important to handle the refugees and poor.

    Give the Pope a break - whether he believes exactly what I believe, he's doing very well. I've never seen a Pope that mattered so much and united on important issues. Feel the Papal Bern, ignore the Papal Bull.


    by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 10/02/2015 - 4:16am

    Twice this week I've agreed with Hal - plus an attaboy from TMac - must be hurricane season.

    by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 10/02/2015 - 2:00am

    LOL, You and I are going to be allies this year PP... I hope the earth doesn't explode.

    TMac.


    by tmccarthy0 on Fri, 10/02/2015 - 1:11pm

    Ah well, it's old enough and past shelf-life. What gives gives.

    by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 10/02/2015 - 8:10pm

    FWIW PP your view on the Pope reassures my views on him.


    by NCD on Sat, 10/03/2015 - 12:26am

    Yes, I've been invested with papal authority to calm his flock - I'm going to start passing out absolutions around here soon. Ad hominum dictum quasimodo irredenti sum. Say 5 bloody Marys and maul me in the morning.

    by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 10/03/2015 - 2:40am

    The Dalai Lama is just as against homosexuality and abortion as the Pope, but he giggles a lot and isn't Christian so progressives think he's cool.

    I've never understood the pass that the Dalai Lama gets.  He has a bunch of retrograde beliefs, packaged as New Age, and he represents a hereditary monarchy.


    by Michael Maiello on Fri, 10/02/2015 - 8:36am

    Story update. The Vatican released a statement which should mollify those of us who thought the Pope was wrong to meet with Kim Davis.

    Per Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi:

    "Pope Francis met with several dozen persons who had been invited by the Nunciature to greet him as he prepared to leave Washington for New York City," Lombardi said, referring to the Vatican's diplomatic mission. "The pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects."

    The statement also added explained that the meeting could not be described as a formal audience.

    "Such brief greetings occur on all papal visits and are due to the Pope's characteristic kindness and availability," it said. "The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family."

    Davis was earlier this week quoted as saying that Francis was "on track with what we're doing and agreeing, you know, it kind of validates everything."

    However, the Vatican statement indicates the pope did not express any view.


    by HSG on Fri, 10/02/2015 - 8:43am

    Not mollified. :)


    by Michael Maiello on Fri, 10/02/2015 - 10:44am

    Kay.
     


    by HSG on Fri, 10/02/2015 - 1:23pm

    Does this mollify you?

    Yayo Grassi, an openly gay man, brought his partner and several friends to a brief meeting with Pope Francis on Sept. 23, the day before the pope met with Kim Davis, according to CNN.

    A video of the meeting shows Grassi and the pope hugging each other. In an interview with CNN, Grassi said the meeting was arranged by the pope in an e-mail in the weeks before the trip. Grassi said that the pope taught him in literature and psychology classes in high school in Argentina from 1964-1965, according to CNN.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/10/02/pope-fra...


    by HSG on Fri, 10/02/2015 - 1:45pm

    Nope.  You can't meet with David Duke in a way that bolsters what he's doing and then tell me it's okay because you have black friends.


    by Michael Maiello on Fri, 10/02/2015 - 2:23pm

    Not the same thing Michael.  The Pope did not invite Kim Davis to meet with him and the meeting was not arranged in a way that suggests he approves of what she's doing.  By contrast, he did invite his old friend to visit and he did so in a way that suggests he does approve of his gay friend and his spouse who was also present.


    by HSG on Fri, 10/02/2015 - 2:31pm

    The Pope could properly have  admired Kim Davis for her bravery. If not her wisdom.

    I do.

    But  in a functioning Government the Firemen don't get to chose  which blaze to douse.

    As for the Pope it was quite right for him to recognize the courage of  someone willing to put her job on the line. And then tell  her to get back to work.

    And BTW enough already  of subordinates doing the jobs she doesn't feel like handling. 

    Unless they get her pay too.

     


    by Flavius on Fri, 10/02/2015 - 10:32pm