The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age

    Let me be the ant

    By Flavius on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 7:18am |

    at the picnic.

    It was great to celebrate Tuesday night. And Hillary didn´t miss a beat. She could have been practicing that speech for 8 years. Maybe she was.

    Now.

    She ain' t gonna win unless Bernie supports her. Enthusiastically.

    True? Who knows. But we need to think that way.

    I enjoyed and appreciated the part nasty-part playful exchanges in She Came, She Saw, He Died, but sometime soon, like now, we've got to draw a double line beneath the criticism of Bernie, however valid.

    And he's got to be our new best friend. Maybe that should start by thinking about him on Tuesday night/Wednesday morning. His throat was sore, he was so tired as to give a new meaning to that term and he'd lost. In Macy's window.

    Sure, in his own black heart he will continue to hope that something derails the Hillary express.

    Of course.

    Wouldn´t we ? He really thinks he could do enormous good for this country because we have enormous problems. That could be fixed, should be fixed and won´t be fixed (he thinks) by anybody but him.

    He wasn´t running for President as an ego trip. Or not only. He was running because we have hundreds of thousand of homeless children when that number should be Zero.

    So between now and the convention he´ll go to bed every night hoping that Comey or something will do what he couldn´t and make it possible for him to accept the nomination. Mean spirited ? Depends. If you thought that you could eliminate our multitude of homeless children wouldn´t you want a chance to do it?

    It´s my guess he sincerely wants to give the country what he gave Burlington: a vigorous shaking up. And if that would antagonize the Democratic party the way it antagonized the Free Press editorial board, that ´s the way the old ball bounces. I understand that. So be it. 

    Let him have whatever secret desires he nurses for a Hillary catastrophe provided he does the right thing anyway.

    Our job is to make it as easy as possible for him to do that. When he´s considering, some sleepless night in the week before the convention, what he' s going to say, don´t give him the excuse for dodging his responsibility because we (editorial we) are still proposing him for  Cuban ambassador.

    That was good fun Wednesday morning.

    Now let´s focus on one question: how should we act to increase the likelihood that Bernie will say and act so that he can be the pied piper leading a million people who felt the Bern into Hillary´s camp on November 8?

    Or narrow the focus. How should we act so that Hal decides to go door to door for Hillary?

    Deal?

    Comments

    Spot on.   I agree.  


    by MrSmith1 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 8:17am

    Hillary feels that she can improve the country. The people who voted for her did not believe that Bernie could deliver on his promises. Many feel that Bernie and his supporters went out of their way to suggest that Hillary supporters were morally inferior. Feelings of hurt are on both sides. What do Sanders supporters owe us?

    Sanders is continuing the fight. He has seats on the platform committee. Sanders meets with the President today to try to smooth the landing. What can we do if Sanders wants to continue the fight?

    At the end of the day, most Sanders supporters will vote for Hillary, we should make those people feel welcome. If a person truly feels that there is no difference between Hillary and Trump and cannot be swayed by Supreme Court selections, etc. There is very little we can do. History suggests the Democratic Party will come together. Some will not be coming along for the ride.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 8:53am

    I dunno - the last month/year's been all about Bernie. Even post-Tuesday's been largely about Trump *AND* Bernie. I'm not trying to create long exchanges, but I'm also not holding hands through 12 stages of grief. For some reason we're supposed to treat this as the Mother of All Battles when it was never that close? And from what I recall, we were never that snarky - the only reason California is such a big deal is because Bernie made such an absurd claim - that we forget 49 states and focus only on winner-take-all in California - not even New Jersey the same day - and if he loses California, that it's contester-take-all at the convention. After a month or two of that noise *AND IT'S STILL NOT OVER*, I'm not really feeling caring and dainty and ready for huge concessions. HIllary wins, and instead of victory celebrations, it's largely "what are we going to do about Bernie's followers". Every NFL championship game, I see the losers go crestfallen to the lockers while the winners do hugs and high fives and go on to the SuperBowl.

    Certainly I don't recommend treating Sanders supporters the way they treated Hillary supporters - I don't see them as tainted or hugely wrongheaded or evil or not part of the team, and never did - nor the dismissiveness and presumptiousness that Obama's team showed to Hillary's followers in 2008. But no-celebrations-or-fun-because-the-losers-might-have-feelings-hurt? The day of victory even when the other side was looking for a great upset dirt-in-your-face win? Isn't that kind of PC nonsense? Maybe football should be no contact as well...


    by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 9:29am

    A major party nominated the first woman as a Presidential candidate and we focus on Bernie's hurt feelings and the BernieBros. Most Sanders supporters that I know started turning down the heat in March and April because they saw the writing on the wall. The true believers on Bernie's side will vote for Jill Stein.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 9:38am

    Post-mortem: http://www.salon.com/2016/06/09/bernies_road_ahead_three_options_for_the...

     


    by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 9:44am

    Some year, maybe 78 or 79 ,the Yankees were  4 games  up with  6 to play .Then they lost 3 in a row!

    When they finally clinched an interviewer stuck a mike in Thurman Munson´s face

    ¨Some people are saying you backed into the pennant¨

    Munson:¨They´re saying that from second place.¨

    Let the Sandernistas  enjoy their moral superiority.  In second place.

    As for the Bernmaster he´s not going to subside until the convention. Something might always come up. Like an indictment. It´s not over till the fat lady sings. So we just wait. Quietly.

    The House of Lords

    Throughout the War

    Did nothing in particular.

    And did it very well.

     

    But for God´s sake,give Berny  a golden bridge for when the last dog dies and he´s ready to endorse. 


    by Flavius on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 9:49am

    The point is that Sanders got concessions. The burden should now be on Sanders and his supporters. That is the reality of life in second place. There is nothing we can do to prevent their disrupting the convention. However, Sanders abdicated any responsibility saying that his supporters are now Hillary's problem. He is failing as a leader. Hillary has been gracious.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 10:12am

    I dunno - we got Adele and Amy Schumer, but they're not really *fat*. And shouldn't that be a golden "biscuit" for when the last dog dies? BTW, those old fleas in matchboxes - is that where they're buried too? Maybe we can get Bernie some old reconstructed theater, and he can do vaudeville acts. Name a $15 bill after him. Revoke the marriage discount and call it "single payer". Hillary could spend 1 night in jail for charity (or to pay off his campaign debts if he has any). Bring in Frick & Frack and ban Frack... Or as WC Fields would offer, *2 weeks* in Philadelphia. Perhaps his wife & him would appreciate tickets to Zero Mostel's A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. Except it hasn't played in years. As they say, no second axe in politics.


    by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 10:26am

    Barney Frank (D-MA) on Bernie Sanders movement:

    I am disappointed by the voters who say, “OK I’m just going to show you how angry I am!” And I’m particularly unimpressed with people who sat out the Congressional elections of 2010 and 2014 and then are angry at Democrats because we haven’t been able to produce public policies they like. They contributed to the public policy problems and now they are blaming other people for their own failure to vote, and then it’s like, “Oh look at this terrible system,” but it was their voting behavior that brought it about.....Bernie Sanders has been in Congress for 25 years with little to show for it in terms of his accomplishments and that’s because of the role he stakes out. It is harder to get things done in the American political system than a lot of people realize, and what happens is they blame the people in office for the system..

    If Democrats are going to beat Trump, I don't believe Sanders is going to be much help. He is a holier than thou whiner at heart. He has been a loner living off the 'corrupt system' for decades. His accomplishments have been nil, and one can only reasonably expect the record will continue, and he will squander the opportunities from this run for Prez.

    His lies about 'what he could do' (which we have gone over here again and again) just validates and reinforces the 'one and done' election behavior....vote Bernie, corruption/money/politics-game over, the nation will enter a progressive Valhalla. The fervor with which he preaches this message means he believes it

    It is 'the role he stakes out' as Frank says above. It is not a message that will sustain a movement.


    by NCD on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 11:04am

    Even the President will not be able to talk Bernie down.

    Edit to add:

    Imagine what the BernieBros would be saying if Bernie had the popular vote and the delegates, and Hillary demanded concessions. Would they call for party unity by appeasing Hillary? The answer is no.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 12:01pm

    Frank can take his platitudinous line of crap into any toilet he chooses and stick it where he gets his biggest kicks. The opposite of "Feel the Bern", which is something I never much did, should not be to stay so parochial that we can feel cool among like-thinking team players while the rest of world burns. Every noxious action or attitude ever expressed by Hillary is defended by pointing out that at some point, usually after being proved completely wrong or at least completely wrong-headed, she said something different that excuses everything.

     I agree with Frank on a couple things he said within your quoted remark.

    It is harder to get things done in the American political system than a lot of people realize, and what happens is they blame the people in office for the system.   

    He is right in that statement, at least about me. I do blame the people in office for what they choose to do when I think that what they choose is wrong. Another thing he gets right is:

    ... but it was their voting behavior that brought it about.....

    Yeah, I know that is taken out of context but why the hell not, we are talking politics aren't we? This is what puts me in a rude mood this morning. Don't take it personal, I could have spewed the same bile anywhere or nowhere with the same expectation of it making any difference, so don't worry, it is very unlikely I will tilt the election and very, very likely you will get the election result you desire and we will all get the results of that. And, in case you are wondering, I do believe that  between Hillary and Trump, Hillary is the lesser evil. Probably. But, so what? Even a little evil goes a long way when the strength of our country is behind it, and it leads more and more of the world to the same conclusions about us that we are in a position to inflict on them. You and those on your side are winning, have a nice day. smiley

     


    by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 12:09pm

    The reality is that Sanders supports military intervention.

    http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-sanders-troubling-history-s...


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 1:17pm

    Another reality is that I only mentioned Sanders to say that I did not feel the Bern.  My rant was about Hillary in the context that she is the one who will very likely be our next President.  She is getting the votes. Our country will get the leader it votes for. Your link has a few short lines which I think every voter in this country should seriously consider before voting for any candidate. 

    Brecher's note to Sanders closes with a set of rhetorical questions. "Is there a moral limit to the military violence you are willing to participate in or support? Where does that limit lie? And when that limit has been reached, what action will you take? My answers led to my resignation." 

    I have my answer, would you care to share yours or is there no moral limit you would ask Hillary to respect?


    by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 2:21pm

    I just want to go on record that I find your toilet comments about Barney Frank, offensive.


    by CVille Dem on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 5:40pm

    "His lies about 'what he could do' (which we have gone over here again and again) just validates and reinforces the 'one and done' election behavior....vote Bernie, corruption/money/politics-game over, the nation will enter a progressive Valhalla. The fervor with which he preaches this message means he believes it."

    Please provide one quote from Sanders that supports this statement.


    by HSG on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 1:09pm

    Oh let it go, Hal. Another spin around this hamster wheel won't change anyone's perspective. If Flav's thoughtful and nuanced plea for unity didn't move NCD, your demands for evidence certainly won't.


    by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 1:35pm

    Mike - you give me unsolicited advice here and that's fine.  Let me return the favor.  Why don't you join my plea to NCD and others who make general, unsupported, provocative statements to back them up with evidence or to retract them?  Unless it's true, NCD's quoted statement has only negative value.  It intensifies animus between two groups that (hopefully) have more in common than in dispute.  Under these circumstances, shouldn't you be encouraging NCD to justify the words or take them back rather than telling me to let it go?


    by HSG on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 1:53pm

    It won't do any good. Therefore, it's a waste of time and pixels.


    by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 2:06pm

    PS I wasn't offering you advice, I'm just sick of seeing the same argument over and over again. Flavius wrote a well-written piece about unity and empathizing with one's opponent. I'd rather honor his post by discussing that rather than going around the same old circle again and again.


    by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 2:10pm

    Please support with evidence that you were not off--

    (Okay, I'll stop).


    by Michael Maiello on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 2:20pm

    Cornel West


    by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 2:21pm

    "Dear god, that's Stone Cold's music!"


    by Michael Maiello on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 2:32pm

    This is why I avoid responding to you. I'm outta here.


    by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 2:40pm

    Hal Politifact:

    In an interview with Sanders, CNN’s Erin Burnett asked about some of the issues Sanders’ critics bring up about the proposal, like the large cost of such a program and persuading states to get on board.

    But Sanders said he has a way to pay for it: Wall Street.

    "I think the idea is sound," Sanders said in the March 30 interview. "It is paid for, Erin, by a tax on Wall Street's speculation. When Wall Street's illegal behavior destroyed our economy, the middle class bailed them out. It is now time for them to help the middle class."

    Sanders’ assertion that the Wall Street speculation tax pays for his college tuition plan is only part of the story...

    OKat was the first to note the funding problem with the tuition plan months ago,

    That 1/3 the 'free' had to come out of every state taxpayers pocket, 1/3 of cost must come from the states. And 48 of 50 states have cut higher ed spending since 2010.

    And the link for this quote also says economists estimate the Wall Street 'speculator' tax might only raise $50-60 billion not the Bern's $300 billion.

    I ignore the fact he doesn't mention that getting it through Congress is hardly a slam dunk.

    Vote Bernie, one and done.

    "It is paid for, Erin, by a tax on Wall Street's speculation."  This is as much an intentionally misleading load of BS, a 'bait and switch' come on, as any made in America political campaign scam.  It is 'candy' for the faithful, almost on a par with Donald and his Wall.

    I must say though that Bernie's recent talk about the disaster of a Trump election gives reason to believe that Bernie will support the complete Democrat ticket and work in the Senate for progressive causes.

    He is due to lead a major committee if the Dems retake the Senate. He could do big things now that he is so well known if he can work with and on his fellow Senators to fight GOP gridlock.


    by NCD on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 3:48pm

    You wrote 1) Sanders "lies" and 2) promotes "one and done" election behavior, i.e., if we elect Sanders all are problems will be magically solved.  Nothing you post here supports either contention.  At least one study supports the economics behind Sanders' plan to use a financial transaction tax to fund public colleges and universities.  We also know that some European countries have adopted tuition-free higher education successfully.  These facts of course strongly suggest he wasn't lying.  He may be, as you sincerely believe, wrong but that doesn't mean or even imply he's lying. 

    Likewise, Sanders has never said that electing him will solve all our problems.  His argument has been just the opposite.  He has repeatedly argued that only by electing a truly progressive Congress to work with a progressive President, like him, will we be able to resolve the thorniest dilemmas we face.


    by HSG on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 4:15pm

    Flavius you conclude your post with this line: "How should we act so that Hal decides to go door to door for Hillary?"

    First let me thank you for mentioning me and although you didn't ask me the question I will try to answer it as best I can.  Before doing so though, I also want to mention that of the various Clinton supporters here, my impression is you have been the most open to my various criticisms of the Secretary and one of those least given to responding with ad hominem attacks against Sanders or yours truly.  For that I thank you as well.

    Okay, what can you do to get me to go door-to-door for Hillary?  There is very little you can do I am afraid.  By and large, it is the Secretary, not her supporters, who can earn my enthusiasm even though her Republican opponent has already "earned" her my vote.  

    For her too, it will be very difficult, if not downright impossible, to generate enthusiasm.  Her long record does not inspire me.  There are some bright spots but, to my eye, the blemishes are more numerous and more serious.  Since I doubt her sincerity, she cannot persuade me with words that she will be a progressive hero who fights the many-headed corporatist-hydra destroying our world.

    Here are five actions she can take that would help a lot:

    1) She can nominate a truly progressive running mate - doesn't have to be Bernie.  I love Elizabeth Warren, Sherrod Brown, Keith Ellison, Raul Grijalava, and Tulsi Gabbard, - but I'd hate to see a Republican nominate the next Massachusetts or Ohio Senator and the other three aren't sufficiently well-known.  I'll take Senator Bob Casey from PA although he is far from perfect.  He has true working-class/union cred and he would help with PA and OH - both of which are frighteningly close right now.

    2) She can announce support for a significant and rising fossil fuels tax that equates to a minimum of 50 cents per gallon with commensurate imposts on all carbon-based energy sources.  The revenues of the tax would be rebated directly to the public.

    3) She can forswear loudly her previous allegiance to "free trade" agreements, state that without question, they have harmed our nation grievously, and promise to unravel the ones currently in effect.

    4) She can call for a medicare option for all and announce she will renew the push to expand medicaid to low-income Americans across the land.

    5) She can release the Goldman Sachs transcripts.

    I have been heartened by her recent call for a tax surcharge on the wealthiest Americans.  That is a promising start.

    Here's what her supporters can do.  They can stop talking about how great she is and start discussing the specific steps they expect her to take or try to take to address economic injustice, global warming, and American militarism.


    by HSG on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 1:40pm

    Should she also break into Bernie's house and find his taxes?  After all, that has been a standard for candidates for 40 years.  He is out of line comparing his taxes to her speeches.    No candidate has ever had to show a birth certificate, texts of speeches, or college transcripts, (Obama was asked to because the GOP assumed he was not that bright -- haha!).  He eventually showed his "long form" birth certificate in order to further humiliate Mr. Birther (Trump)

    How about if she dyes her hair Snow White and shaves her cranium, and starts pointing wildly when she talks?

    Seriously, Hal?  She would have to have a Bernie mind-meld for you to support her?  She would put herself at a great disadvantage in the general election if she did that.  The three million more votes that went to her in the primary were in support of her nuanced policies.  Never mind.  I'm not surprised.  

    I am happy enough that you will vote for  her, and I truly and honestly believe that when she is President you will be pleasantly surprised with her.  Do I think you will be HAPPY with her?  No.  But I do think you would be less happy with Bernie, because he would be completely impotent.

    I am so glad that Hillary is working for downstream Democrats, with the goal of getting her policies through.  I have been disappointed at Bernie's dismissiveness of a Democratic Congress.

     


    by CVille Dem on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 6:08pm

    The bottom line is that there is never going to be enough that Hillary or her supporters can do to satisfy hardcore Sanders supporters. Sanders is not interested in forming a coalition. Sanders supporters do not feel the need to listen to anybody else in the Democratic Party. All Democrats have to agree with Bernie Sanders programs. Despite losing ethnic group votes because Sanders never really listened to them, Sanders supporters are going to dictate the solutions.Sanders would never consider having Clinton supporters on the platform committee if he had won. 

    Obama endorsed Hillary. Warrens appears set to endorse Warren. Sanders remains silent.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-sanders-reacts-to-barack-obama-end...

    This is the guy with supporters telling us what we need to do to massage their waddle feelings.

     


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 6:26pm

    If you think Hillary hasn't already earned your vote, there isn't much more she can do about that.  She really doesn't owe you anything.  You owe the country the chance to right what's wrong by making sure Donald Trump and the rest of the GOP lose their power to take over our lives.


    by Ramona on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 10:50am

    I already noted Trump has "earned" Clinton my vote.  The question posed was what can be done to cause me to support Clinton enthusiastically.  Since I believe, and have presented what I believe to be dispositive evidence, that she's not honest and has repeatedly acted counter to the best interests of poor, working, and middle-class Americans, it would be difficult for me to feel enthusiastic about her candidacy. 

    Even if the facts as I marshaled them haven't convinced you, you can understand my sentiments can't you Ramona?  I mean you don't expect me to be excited to vote for a candidate about whom I feel as negatively as I do about Clinton do you?

    By the way, you're absolutely wrong when you write Hillary "really doesn't owe" me anything.  To the extent she's a public servant or is trying to become one, she owes me honesty.  She owes me fealty to the rule of law.  She owes me a commitment to try to fulfill her campaign promises.

    Your candidate won.  We'll find out soon enough if her supporters in the Democratic primary made a defensible choice.  Picking Elizabeth Warren as her running mate would go a long way towards convincing me you did.


    by HSG on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 2:01pm

    Honestly Hal, if Hillary did everything on your list would you really support her enthusiastically?

    You still want to hurt her. Your demand that she release the Goldman Sachs speech transcripts is revealing. There was some rational behind Sanders making that demand even though it was indefensible for him to demand Hillary go above and beyond what is normal for presidential candidates when he would not even do the bare minimum, releasing his tax returns. Now that Hillary is the nominee that rational no longer applies.

    Do you truly want Hillary to go beyond what is normal for presidential candidates when Trump, like Sanders, refuses to meet the minimum standard, releasing his tax returns? Do you truly want Hillary to give the republicans access to something that can at least be mined for out of context quotes that hurt her? Why would you want the democratic candidate to do something that could potentially hurt her chances against Trump?

    edit to add: You know, Hal, if Sanders had transcripts of every speech he gave in Nicaragua I might have supported Hillary calling for him to release them if the election was close. But if Sanders won I would no longer call for him to release them for the republicans to search through.


    by ocean-kat on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 3:48pm

    Yeah, Hal is Clinton's abusive voter.


    by Michael Maiello on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 6:10pm

    O-K - I was asked what it would take for me to support her enthusiastically.  I noted probably nothing.  I also added five things that might help me be more enthusiastic.  Yes the G-S speeches would go along way.  By releasing them, Clinton would be saying I am for the 99% of the people who do not own, manage, or receive enormous salaries from the greedy bastards who have paid me millions while looting and pillaging the planet. 


    by HSG on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 7:19pm

    First, they would only be used negatively - to see if she said "predator" or didn't chastise Wall Street hard enough.

    Second, Wall Street didn't cause the war in Congo that killed >5 million or ISIS in Syria nor our invasion of Iraq, and this investment from Wall Street is why East Europe is clean and liveable as opposed to 25 years ago, and why Chinese average $14k per year with a high-tech development (and restrained childbirth), versus the poverty-infested feudalistic overbreeding backwards country making <$1k/year 35 years ago. Even Wall Street's backing arms production ignores that war isat an all-time low, that aside from Syria, there are very few people dying from war right now.Wall Street funds our internet boom and smartphone obsession and pharmaceutical experimentation and new energy production.

    You overplay your hand. It's certainly not been all "looting and pillaging" in regions that know what it's like to be literally looted and pillaged.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 06/11/2016 - 11:50am

    You write: "Wall Street didn't cause the war in Congo that killed >5 million or ISIS in Syria nor our invasion of Iraq."

    I did not write that Wall Street caused the War in Congo or created ISIS.  Regarding Congo, the Masters of the Universe helped grease the skids for that country's implosion.

    Mobutu Sese Seko is perhaps more responsible for the current Congo crisis than anybody else.  Before his death, he was "estimated to have stolen at least $5 billion from his country, much of it moved to international banks and investments."  http://www.enoughproject.org/conflict_areas/eastern_congo/roots-crisis.  In other words, the valuable resources of Congo were looted and banks profited directly from that looting - exactly what I wrote.

    Regarding ISIS, the terrorist group arose from the ashes of Bush's Operation Iraqi Liberation.  If you want to place most of the blame for ISIS on Bush, Cheney, the Senators, and members of Congress members and Senators who authorized the war, the Project for the New American Century, and oil companies rather than Wall Street banks, I won't argue.


    by HSG on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 10:04am

    Huh? so if Elon Musk has a bank account, Wells Fargo is responsible for the Hyperloop and any mishaps?

    Yes, banks are where we store money. Nothing much to do with the Congo.


    by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 3:54am

    Wow. Sorry about how this has turned out. 

    I just want to win. And  believe that Hillary will need  the vote of every Sanders supporter she can get. And Bernie´s assistance to do that.

    They ´re  more similar than either ś supporters would like to acknowledge. Both committed to liberal policies since Wellesley and the University of Chicago. And would  raise the standard of living of the lowest 20%. And have worked at that with some degree of success. They each have  their share of not so great personal characteristics  . Unlike the rest of us who are perfect.

    Like it or not they´re now joined at the hip.She can´t win without his support and he doesn´t want his legacy to be President Trump.

    Since they are professionals sooner or later they´ ll reach a deal and we had  damn well better support it.


    by Flavius on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 1:42pm

    Actually disagree - I see Bernie's quest as largely similar to Hillary's and mostly disagree about degree. I think a lot of her supporters acknowledge that. Frscking is one particular I disagree with, but I may be in the minority. Even foreign policy, many are disappointed with amount of military pressure and regime change., and hope we rein that back.


    by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 2:12pm

    President Obama may have helped Sanders find the exit door

    http://thedailybanter.com/2016/06/so-bernie-sanders-will-drop-out-after-...

    The President endorsed Hillary Clinton today

    http://thedailybanter.com/2016/06/im-with-her-president-barack-obama-end...

    (post corrected had incorrect link re: exit door originally. Original link was

    http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-sanders-troubling-history-s...


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 3:07pm

    Oh no please, no more bullshit about the "coup government" in Ukraine, nor "hawkish" over trying to defend Kosovars from Milosevic. Yeah, there's some issues in the details, but overall a pretty straightforward moral justification. I know, guns bad, allowing a Rwanda-size massacre good. Fucking idealist pacifists


    by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 2:29pm

    Wrong link posted

    incorrect link

    http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-sanders-troubling-history-s...

    Corrected link

    http://thedailybanter.com/2016/06/so-bernie-sanders-will-drop-out-after-...


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 3:05pm

    I just watched Hillary's interview with Baier on fox. She said exactly what I wanted her to say. Including combating climate change by increasing the supply of renewable energy. If Sanders supporters can't support this than they can go where ever it is they want to.

    I want to have a big an infrastructure plan as Dwight Eisenhower had when he did the interstate highways. Our roads, our bridges, our tunnels, our ports, our airports, our water systems. We have work to do and it's good work that will put people back into the middle class, keep them there. And it will make us more competitive. I also want to do more to incentivize the return and growth and return of manufacturing jobs. And finally, We've got to combat climate change and I think we do that with clean renewable energy jobs.

    I support Hillary not just because she sees the same problems I see but she offerers plans that I favor. For example, I favor attacking the problem of climate change by focusing first on vastly increasing clean renewable energy supplies. Not on trying to restrict the supply of carbon generated power. After we get enough clean energy on line we can begin to restrict supply from carbon sources. Some environmentalist want to focus on restricting supply of carbon energy first believing the clean renewable supply will follow. I think the carbon tax is a recipe for failure if we don't have the alternatives in place first. When Sanders rants on and on that Hillary doesn't support a carbon tax it doesn't move me at all. In fact it turns me against him.

    So you see, it's not that I support Hillary's policies because I support Hillary. I support Hillary because I mostly support her policies often even in the nuances.


    by ocean-kat on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 3:23pm

    I think that the bulk of Sanders supporters will vote for Hillary. I think it is better to go after Independents rather than hardcore Sanders supporters in an effort to gather votes for Hillary.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 3:37pm

    Independents are the staunchest Sanders supporters.


    by HSG on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 3:42pm

    Hillary will get 40+ of the white vote and the majority of the ethnic minority vote. She only needs a critical mass probably 30-45 percent of the Independents. 

     


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 4:30pm

    When Hillary wins, it will be said that it was done despite the lack of help from Sanders supporters.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 4:39pm

    That's fine O-K.  We disagree on whether a carbon tax is needed.  I've explained in great detail in a number of places why I believe it is not only the best it is the only reasonable solution.  You are free of course to disagree.  I have no wish to engage in a dispute on the merits here.  Feel free to comment on my website if you like or here where I have posted the articles in the past. 

    The question Flavius posed was what it would take for me to support Clinton enthusiastically.  I answered that question.


    by HSG on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 3:45pm

    Oh, you're just voting your vagina!   (You've heard of penis envy -- there must be an equivolent


    by CVille Dem on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 6:24pm

    I'm getting this dichotomy of pulling the lever vs stuffing it in the slot on a ballot box. And perhaps a transgendered dual punch butterfly ballot. Anatomy of an erection  election.


    by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 6:44pm

    Obama endorsed Clinton. Obama seemed to get Sanders to calm done a bit. Elizabeth Warren seems poised to endorse Hillary. Warren tore Trump a new one at the American Constitution Society. She also attacked the Republican Senate for block the hearings on Garland. Warren was followed on the ACS podium by Vice President Joe Biden who pointedly attacked Trump's Racism. Democrats have Obama, Biden Warren, Bill Clinton, and a host of others to go after Broke Donald.

    The Warren and Biden speeches should be up on the MSNBC website soon. They are classics.Hopefully the passion of Democrats can influence some Independents and carry the day for Hillary.

    Edit to add:

    Im watching Bernie Sanders give a speech at a rally in Washington, D.C.. 

    The crowd in D.C. is mostly white.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 06/09/2016 - 10:05pm

    A few months back I was skeptical of a Clinton-Warren ticket, not because they wouldn't play well together, but just seemed top jarring or something, plus 2 old women's a bit of a gamble. At this point I'm starting to feel the chemistry can be very good and natural. Part is that both Clinton and Warren seem to be delivering just right, and part is a Clinton-Gore-like millenial feel mach 2, a "why not push the limits?" feeling. Policy-wise and presentation-wise, it feels that both Clinton and Warren are ready for this. Could be fun ;-)  plus it would be a way to put uncle Bernie to rest with no harm done. Plus difficult to say what male candidate would fit her - Julian Castro makes me think "boy toy" a bit, which might be my sexism, but there will be more in busting that ceiling, but maybe he would provide excitement - not that I think she needs it, but the press and others always present H as too boring, and with Warren there'd be pizazz while I can't think of any other politicians, Dem or not, that give off much energy. Whether it's against Trump, Idunno - not sure of the rules, but I'm guessing there might be a serious convention attempt to deny him or a 3rd party run - Romney seems doomed, Ryan as white knight could be it - that will change the calculus.


    by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 12:11am

    The.country is used to single gender President/Vice President combos


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 12:07am

    And practical for bathroom stops on the Presidential bus. A whole round of powdering nose jokes coming... (comment above edited to speculate on Castro, Ryan et al). Wonder if nominating a Castro will satisfy Bernie?


    by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 12:15am

    For me, it was sad to see the joy of Hillary's victory with powerful endorsements by Obama with passionate speeches by Biden and Warren have to share space with Bernie's issues. I was charged by Obama, Warren, and Biden. I have to admit it was depressing to see Bernie giving the same old speech to the same crowd.


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 7:03am

    Not being snarky, Bernie should take a vacation.


    by Flavius on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 7:36am