Michael Maiello's picture

    Papal Utterances

    By Michael Maiello on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 1:53pm | Politics

    Posts like these generally start with a pronouncement of lapsed Catholicism on the part of the author.  I can be very atheisty.  I do not study the church.  I do not consider its views when I make any of my own decisions, be they moral, social, financial or dietary.  This means that I have something of a tin ear for the nuance of the papal utternance.

    Pope Francis says that maybe his church, at least in the developed west, has overemphasized culture war issues like same sex marriage, other gay rights, contraception and abortion.  For those who follow such things, this is big.  As an outside observer I raise an eyebrow and say, "you think?"

    It's not like I have no frame of reference.  I've supported same sex marriage rights for a long time, possibly back to when I learned to really think.  But for years after I had settled the issue in my own mind I watched Democratic political leaders who I was sure knew better "defend traditional marriage," as part of the social act that is politics.  I remember what like minded progressives had to think about that.  One point of view was that the politician really believed as we did but had chosen to give on one issue in order to obtain a greater good.

    There's something to that.  We now look at "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" as a monstrosity but it was a big step forward from the military's previous policy of outing and firing gay soldiers.

    Another reaction was to take the politician's words at face value.  I generally advocate this as it frees us from the messy business of trying to imagine the inner lives of people we will likely never know.  In that case you say, "wrong on same sex marriage but more interested in other things so is likely to do no harm."

    Obviously, Bill Clinton's record on all of this was mixed and one that I imagine he regrets but there I go, imagining the unimaginable again.  This is why it was such a big deal when Obama finally came out in support of marriage equality.  We no longer had to depend on either his unspoken inner beliefs or his priorities.

    Well, the Pope is in a much more conservative, less flexible system and so he is probably a few steps behind Clinton in the 90s, at least when judged by American social mores.  He has said, in nice words, that it is time for the church to change the subject, without admitting being wrong about anything.

    Catholic social conservatives have latched onto the last part.  He hasn't changed anything, they say.  Church law is church law.  What was sinful last month is still sinful today.  Progressives, who either want to be part of a modernized church or would like the church not to be such an organ of the political right, see the Pope's priority shift as more significant.

    If I put on my imagination hat, then I imagine that under the Pope's hat sits an unbigoted mind who would love to say more if he could.  But if all he can do is change the subject without apology then I think we Americans, Catholic and not, can help him along by saying, "sorry, it's not enough."

    I hold no special regard for religious beliefs.  If you have odious thoughts about racial minorities or women or homosexuals or your neighbor, I do not give a pass for those with a biblical or encyclical passage of justification.  Racism is racism whether explained by eugenics or the mark of Cain.

    Of course, people can believe whatever they want.  Legally, they can pretty much act on those beliefs within the very reasonable boundaries of our shared society.  People can definitely speak their minds, however sordid their thoughts. But they can also be shunned, marginalized or set aside by those who know better.

    The Catholic church is so far behind the mainstream American culture on this that such a small step from a seemingly humble Pope will not reverse its inexorable slide into irrelevance. Unless American society reverses course, and I surely hope it doesn't, the Catholic church in America will have to change. If, that is, it wants to join the increasingly cosmopolitan conversations of polite society.

    Topics: 
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    Comments

    On this topic, sorry Michael, but I'd lay my bets with Andrew Sullivan and his audience's reactions and predictions over yours.

    If you happen to be doing so, you shouldn't judge the current state of U.S. Catholicism by the NYC archdiocese. My own humble opinion, it has always been a conservative outlier, pretty different from what goes on in many Catholic parishes in the rest of the country. In the rare times I have been to a service in NYC, it freaks me out how it's almost like pre-1960's. And full of very old conservative people. Not at all like in my hometown of Milwaukee, where services (and priests) are pretty much still kumbaya, joy, peace, help the suffering, and other hippie happiness stuff, with very mixed age groups in attendance. And the latter is what the past Vatican didn't like about the U.S. Catholic church, except for several select conservative dioceses--them they always were close with. So far with Pope Francis, what seems to be going on is support for the way most of "rebellious" U.S. Catholic church has been doing things in the trenches for decades. And against the strict old fashioned Vatican version practiced in outliers like N.Y.C.


    by artappraiser on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 4:56pm

    The only active church involvement I've had as an adult was singing in a Unitarian choir in a university town. The congregation was eclectic. Former church affiliations ran the spectrum. Other than the music (not including the stately UU hymns) I was only moved on a few occasions, including once when we sang an old Baptist hymn.

    I liked what the Pope said. It was constructive. Reminded me of that old adage you tell your kids when they tattle tale, "Always tell the truth, but don't always be telling it" If I were ever to seriously entertain a church affiliation it would be Episcopalian or Catholic---for the simple reason of "tradition". It's the art, the architecture and the formal music (excluding UUhymns). As far as the sermons go, good time to design a chair or bookcase in one's mind.

    I have a friend who plays drums in a band in the early service of the Catholic Church nearby. No offense, but I've heard him practice. Besides, to me, its just out of place.

    The closest I've been to the Divine in my adult life was singing Randall Thompson's Alleluia, a cappella, in the Ely cathedral in Cambridge with several hundred folks. So maybe that was what the Pope was saying. Forget a while the specifics, after all we've run the place more or less successfully for two thousand years. Feel the tradition, the Spirit. I would like to thank the Pope. I did.

     


    by Oxy Mora on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 5:44pm

    Obviously, the notion that one size fits all is hardly appropriate on issues of comparative religion.  But my experience as a Jew who practices in the "conservative" movement (nothing to do with politics) is that things change, things that are hundreds of years old change.  Our Rabbi openly advocates same sex marriages and, indeed, my Upper Westside congregation is almost universally behind him.  This is hardly the norm in most conservative congregations, but it reflects a change and a big one.

    I guess the Catholic church, notwithstanding AA's comparison of NY's archdiocese to others around the country, is far more centralized than most other religions.  So I would suspect that nothing will happen overnight, but the fact that the Pope seems to be going in certain directions on gays and in other areas, has to be a sign of promise for folks like our teacher Michael M., whose experience leaves him more pessimistic about the opportunity for real change in the upcoming years.

    It's not my debate, but I find it fascinating, and I do believe that spiritual leaders, not just Catholic leaders, can move things forward even beyond the realm of their respective faiths.  

    I just loved the Pope's off-the-cuff remarks yesterday about worshipping money.  I want to hear from him, even as a committed Jew.

     


    by Bruce Levine on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 5:24pm

    What Francis essentially said was, 1) we are not supposed to be a single-issue church, 2) the wedge issues we've been obsessing about are nowhere close to our main message.

    Now, some conservative Catholics aren't happy about this, because they have actually become obsessive single-issue believers. Some math professor from Canisius College (a Jesuit school in Buffalo) wrote a letter to the NY Times scolding Francis for not focusing on abortion enough.

    And, frankly, your post essentially takes the position of a single-issue doubter.  You complain that Francis didn't move far enough, fast enough, on the one issue that matters to you. (Your post singles out one of the two or three issues that Francis discussed.) And since the Pope has failed that particular test, that closes the book.

    On the other hand, Francis threw away his scripted sermon yesterday, preached an impassioned improvised sermon on the evils of the global economy and the dignity of labor, and began chanting "Work! Work! Work!" along with the congregation (whom he had whipped up into a chanting mood by that point).

    To step back and give some perspective: part of the requirement of being Pope is that you never officially contradict any earlier Pope, even if you're actually sharply reversing the course your predecessor charted. No matter how big the change of policy is, it is always presented as NO change at all. The new Pope just happens to be, ahem, clarifying or re-emphasizing "existing" teachings.

    It's like stare decisis on steroids. The Vatican talks about the papacy as "a seamless garment," preserving the fiction of continuity. So, when John Paul II and his successor Maledict Benedict set about undermining and reversing the 60s-era reforms begun by John XXIII, they always said they were *continuing* those reforms.

    Francis was almost certainly elected because the College of Cardinals believed that Benedict had screwed things up. When you come in second in a papal election, as Bergoglio came in second to Ratzinger last time around, the conventional wisdom is that you will *never* be elected, because to vote for you now would be understood as a vote that the cardinals picked the wrong guy last time. But Bergoglio WAS elected, apparently because the cardinals really DID want to send the message that they picked the wrong guy last time. His election is a rebuke to Benedict.

    But whatever Francis actually does, he will present it as not fundamentally different from Benedict's policies in any way. Francis will continue presenting himself as continuing Benedict's policies even as Francis's decisions make Benedict turn in his conspicuous lack of grave.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 5:24pm

    To step back and give some perspective: part of the requirement of being Pope is that you never officially contradict any earlier Pope

    Paul rebuked Peter publicly, when he promoted the old Jewish circumcision requirement. as the the first century Christianized Jews, considered themselves superior because they had been circumcised.

    Everyone is infallible except one,

    To teach others anything other than that, is a falsehood, intended to control with a heavy hand and not to shepherd with the help of the spirit, with loving kindness; knowing we all fall short many times; even the Pope or Popes needed to learn this humility just as Peter did..  


    by Resistance on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 7:17pm

    Um, I didn't say that Popes were infallible. God doesn't actually come into this.

    I'm describing the observable institutional practices that the Popes follow.

    Also, for what it's worth, Paul was never Pope, i.e. never Bishop of Rome, and never Peter's successor.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 7:38pm

    Neither was the flesh and blood Peter, ever the Pope, only by those who would use his name to elevate themselves, is his name bandied about.  The accurate record shows, Jesus and his disciples, had been arguing about who was greater and Jesus corrected their thinking, telling them; thoughts of those who are greater, originates with the world of the unrighteous.

    (Reflecting upon the principle Jesus was teaching them, it is clear, avoiding ideas of who is greater would avoid all sorts of discrimination, bigotry and hatred). The early Roman church with this unhealthy attitude, led to wars and many atrocities, because they failed to understand  Jesus' words, because they believed they were so much wiser.    

    If one were looking from a worldly viewpoint,  to see who might be favored, a church could be established on the basis, that it was John who outlived and was spared; chosen to write the final books, to lead the Congregation into the future  NOT PETER. 

    Besides, when would Jesus have made Rome the seat of the Christian congregation, when throughout all his teachings on the Mount, he considered Rome, the detestable thing, who occupies all that is sacred to his father?  Even after his death they continued to occupy that which belonged to the Christ, even wanting his glory.

    Sounds like the machination of the Great Opposer, the slanderer, who wanted God to share the praise from Gods creation, with him, because of his twisted attitude of greatness; that originates from the resistor's mindset. As in the first century the opposer established counter institutions and continues to this day, to try and steal that which belongs to Jesus and his true followers.


    by Resistance on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 8:47pm

    I know this one. There's a shorter version: those damn papists are nearly as bad as, or maybe worse than, the joos who killed our lord.

    Hot tip: You should be happy an ecumenical is back in the papal office, instead of trying to refight the Reformation on the internet.


    by artappraiser on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 9:34pm

    WRONG ....  many Jews became Christians and were fully accepted into the congregation.

    I am happy to see the papacy is being exposed, has having adopted the teachings of men instead of Christ; allowing lovers of truth, to recognize the wolves from the sheep.

    Hypocrites who denounced homosexuals publicly and influenced their political johns to harass these members of society;  but in the darkest corners of the church; believing the light would never be shown upon them, they are now naked and fully exposed and revealed to the world , they were committing what was declared by them, vile acts. Jesus said he would start with the house of the Christians first, when he would arrive, to clean up the mess done in his name by imposters and hypocrites  

    It would not surprise me, the Popes current position, is intended to soften the judgment to be delivered against the church by God himself, who will allow the Nations to rip her apart, just as he allowed the city of David, to be destroyed by the Romans. Caesar.   


    by Resistance on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 11:32pm

    He's a Jesuit Mike, that means he is a liberal. He is shaking up the Church and boy does it need it.


    by tmccarthy0 on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 6:23pm

    Not all Jesuits are liberal. Some Jesuits, like a few intelligent, "scientific" Republicans out there, manage to find and cling to contrarian idealogical flotsam in the vast outpouring of knowledge that has been the hallmark of our modern age.

    But overall, you're right, and for the most part the Jesuit approach is described by Teilhard de Chardin's famous statement "faith has need of all the truth."


    by erica20 on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 7:19pm

    Jesus and the first century Christians promoted tolerance, till the weeds were sown in the same field as were the good seeds planted by Christ, The  weeds corrupted TRUE Christian values. Like imitation Christians who have adulterated the WORD  

    The Pope may realize, it's hard to defend a false principle, adopted by men and not instituted by Christ.

    It is probably too late though,  "the Master upon arriving" has seen the works of his servants and exposed their actions, as true or false.  

    The Pope and his followers, would be better served to listen to the King/Master  who stated "Get out of her MY people, if you don't want to share in her works/sins" The wages she and her promoters will receive is lashings and death, by the hands of the political beast she tried to ride and control.  


    by Resistance on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 7:00pm

    My wife and my ex-wife still go to Mass, but my daughter rebelled. Now she and I attend Unitarian services together, where we both feel more comfortable. I missed a few services with vacation and a bike injury, so last week I found that a theater friend of mine has also joined. We agreed that while Francis seemed like a good man, it would be difficult for him to have much effect on the institution.

    Kind of like Obama.


    by Donal on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 9:58am

    Your example supports what Michael was basically saying with his post. He thinks that despite Francis' shtick, young Americans and the Catholic church are not a good fit, and interest in the church will continue to fall here. But I can think of a lot of young people that will be attracted to what Francis is saying, enough that they will decide to join in and try it out. Even gay ones. Especially if priests and bishops here really do follow what Francis just instructed them to do, and stop ragging on the culture wars issue and move in another direction.

    I am wondering now if he will even capture some of the hearts of kids in <gasp> Europe. They certainly are in a situation to rebel against their parents by doing things like attending Catholic church services.


    by artappraiser on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 11:06am

    Look again at what he said just recently; he really is pondering the issues of what attracts people to the church, my bold:

    Pope Francis said the Catholic Church had become obsessed by "small-minded rules" about how to be faithful and that pastors should instead emphasize compassion over condemnation when discussing divisive social issues of abortion, gays and contraception.

    The pope's remarkably blunt message six months into his papacy was sure to reverberate in the U.S. and around the globe as bishops who have focused much of their preaching on such hot-button issues are asked to act more as pastors of wounded souls.

    "The church's pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently," Francis said.

    "We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel," the pope said in the 12,000-word article, based on interviews conducted by a fellow Jesuit, the Rev. Antonio Spadaro, editor of La Civilta Cattolica, a Rome journal for the religious order.


    by artappraiser on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 11:34am

    While only scanning the many comments; I must admit that I am a 'lapsed Catholic' although I certainly have many lapses over 6 decades.

    I really feel that this new El Papa is denying infallibility; in fact through his actions and through his 'off the cuff'' comments I believe that this wonderful man denies the infallibility of the Roman Catholic Church.

    There is a little Nixonian message here as well.

    We must prioritize our concerns.

    I gotta tell ya, this guy really gets to me.

    I really feel that this man is one of the 'holiest' figures I have ever witnessed in my life.

    Anthony Quinn starred in that wondrous movie in the late sixties about a bishop/priest exiled in the old USSR at some archipelago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shoes_of_the_Fisherman#The_1968_film

    By the time I first viewed this movie I had read a little Solzhenisten.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago

    Quinn's character ends up selling off all the Church's wealth in order to stem some Russo-Sino war.

    Real life is more complicated.

    El Papa cannot sell off its great wealth; the artwork and such serves as collateral for all of its charitable work.

    Anyway, this guy is advancing in thought, word and deed the humbler aspects of The Christ. In my humble opinion.

    I like this man.

     

     


    by Richard Day on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 3:26pm

    Real life is more complicated.

    Pope Francis has already expressed some ideas about that which have in turn have gotten bishops thinking (also note the paragraph about St. Francis on that):

    In a recent interview with the New Catholic Reporter, Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York talked about the new pope. He said that in the wake of Francis, he found himself "examining my own conscience ... on style, on simplicity, on lots of things." The cardinal wondered whether his living arrangements, in the historical residence of the archbishops of New York, were appropriate. But the cardinal wasn't quite sure what to do about it, given that he can't sell the building.

    St. Francis would have agreed. He carefully never argued for the church to sell of its property or divest itself of income. Of course, he was outside the church hierarchy and relied on papal protection for his safety.

    Pope Francis, on the other hand, might have a plan for an empty archbishop's residence if Cardinal Dolan wanted to downsize. After all, he did recently suggest that empty church property should be used to house refugees.

    from

    The Pope's revolutionary message
    By David M. Perry, Special to CNN, September 23, 2013


    by artappraiser on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 3:59pm

    DELIGHTFUL!

    I attempted to add to my comment that Pope John Paul II became the Quinn character in my mind.

    I shall look forward to the CNN link!

    This new Pope eschews the historical Vatican Residence for more modest accommodations and he also eschews the Pope-Mobile. He takes the time to lay his hands on the peasants!

    Francis; and we still are not sure if he is named after Francis of Assisi (my favorite by the way) or a host of other men named Francis.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Francis

    I recall following my review of the 4 Gospels, that Jesus called himself the Son of Man far more than the Son of God.

    the end


    by Richard Day on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 4:11pm

    It only took about 1900 years, filled with all kinds of atrocities committed in the name of Christ and the belief in the infallible judgment of the Popes.

    Proving to the world,    why they should hate Christians  

    In prior years, you would've been burned at the stake, for suggesting that the Pope was in disagreement with the Holy Scriptures or that he was fallible.

    It staggers the mind to consider, how many truly faithful Christians, who were persecuted; because they questioned Romes authority all along, when she claimed to be Christ's representative on Earth?

    Luther comes to mind, as does Galileo who was tried by the inquisition in Rome and found "vehemently suspect of heresy" required to "abjure, curse and detest"  for his opinion about the Earth rotating around the Sun. He was placed under house arrest for the term of his life.

    This man seems pleasant enough as you say; but as for him and the Church he represents as being a part of Christ's Earthly Kingdom.  I don't see it; there's too much blood on this Churches hands. 


    by Resistance on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 6:07pm

    Christians in the Unite d States used the Bible to support slavery and the subjugation of women.. Evils using religion as a crutch are universal. It is no different than using the Constitution to enslave, Blacks, disenfranchise women and Blacks, support Jim Crow and to imprison Japanese in World War II. Southern Baptists supported segregation and turned a blind eye to lynchings. People do evil in the name of religion and in the name of the law of the land.

     


    by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 8:54am

    The day of reckoning is near. The parable about the Master leaving for awhile and when he returned, he would inspect what his servants(slaves) had been up too. The Lord Master) will deal with those who dishonored his name and abused his sheep. ...Churches that were involved in wars, and other acts of conduct, that were never approved by the Master, will be punished, along with those who supported the wicked slaves actions.(the wicked slaves congregations, members of her churches )  .....The scripture says Many will will claim they were Christian,  but he says to them, "Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness, I don't know you ,I never approved or appointed you over my possessions.     


    by Resistance on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 10:46am

    We are not near the end times. Old orders that thrived on despair are passing. The same religious based killings in the United States that infected the United States 50 years ago is infecting Kenya today.Justifying killing to honor God's will is a disgrace.

    A Senator standing on the floor of the Senate attempting to prevent delivery of health care to the poor is a disgrace.In the end, he will be defeated. Those who so angered by the presence of a Black man in office that they are willing to throw the country into economic strife will be shamed by history.

    Good will triumph over evil. Those who hate the poor and refuse them acid while diverting more wealth to the wealthy will not win. Those who live in fear will remain fearful and cling to the guns even as crime rates decrease. Those who decry a government who spies on their email but ignores the government frisking innocent citizens ignore the physical privacy intrusion that justifies the electronic surveillance.

    Those who cheered as an alcoholic, angry vigilante gunned down an unarmed teen in Florida cannot really cry about a government that feels justified in using force overseas.

    Senator Cruz will not triumph. Zimmerman will be judged. The Islamists will kill each other in their quest to go back to the 14th century. Christianists will lose power as religions like the Catholic Church and Progressive Christians turn to focusing on love rather than the hatred engendered by religious bigotry. Atheists will also be working to improve life. The end result will be a better planet. 

    If you continue to fear that there is an unending valley of evil, than remain fearful even though you are told to fear no evil. Cling to your gun when the earthquake, hurricane or flood hits. While you protect your destroyed property from your neighbors, your neighbors  religious and atheists, will be coming out of their destroyed properties to aid and comfort their neighbors.


    by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 11:47am

    You remind me of the false prophets who would challenge Jeremiah's pronouncements of the calamity about to be brought upon the Jewish Nation, who had been judged unworthy to remain standing...... A Nation who had promised to care for one another, but instead became corrupt and uncaring. National leaders who failed to act with compassion to the lowly ones. .... ( claiming there would be Justice for all, with the exception; some would be dealt with unjustly?) ... Sadly, some might be misled, by your false hopes, that somehow, the worlds leaders will turn back, from their wicked ways. and their empty promises. Promises  that Wars  would cease, poverty and sickness would be eliminated.  Swords and spears will be turned into plows, the money spent on wars will be spent on alleviating the fears and anxieties of Earths inhabitants, ..... How much longer would you give the Nations to do the right thing? .....  While the people suffer, at the hands of those in power; who are so deeply entrenched in their bad ways, because they love the system they have built for themselves  ...Take your blinders off and stop believing and spreading  your false hopes. For it written about those who would ignore the reality ......The blind can't lead the blind, for they will both fall into the pit.... The blame clearly falls upon the clergy, who thought they could have an adulterous relationship with the political system, that originates from man  when they should have remained the faithful spiritual bride of God .... The end is near for those  who backed up and supported both the adulterous wife and her political partner who failed to deliver for the good of all the people...... How surprised many will be to learn, they rested their hopes, on false promises..... How will they defend themselves, knowing they have no protector?  That all they were given were lies and false hopes? ....Imagine the horror of some; to find they are outside of  the ARK  of protection, with a million others and their mountains (governmental authorities ) has broken down and collapsed.) their refuge gone. ....  as foretold. The Arab Spring is just a portent of things to come.   


    by Resistance on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 2:33pm

    Most of us are living our lives, enjoying family and friends and doing the admittedly little that we can to help others. We hurt for the poor and see no reason that their bellies or health should suffer because the wealthy are greedy. My church teaches that you honor God by believing in the Savior. You try to aid others.

    The end will come when the end comes.you do your best to be prepared spiritually. Clinging to a gun when accident, fire, flood or earthquake can extinguish a life is a waste of time.

    Christians were thrown to the lions. Jews faced the Holocaust.Black endured Slavery, there were Crusades, Christians turned their backs on Slavery and Jim Crow. Multiple religions turned a blind eye to the suffering of homosexuals. Each ethnic group can point to a time when things were worse.

    There are those who constantly rant about the end-times because they need fear to force people to follow their narrow-minded xenophobic religion. While some see only venom, fire and brimstone in the Good Book, others see a message of love. It was a message that role the back of the English empire in India and Jim Crow in the United States.

    I may be walking through the valley of the shadow of death. But I am comforted.I work with a group that addresses the needs of at risk children, I see teachers and counselors working miracles, building spirits and raising educational levels. I see successes. I am not unaware of evil but I am not fearful.

    I am sorry that some can only attempt to spread fear. People have seen natural disasters and human evil manifested by zealots flying jets into skyscrapers and lunatics with guns who kill unarmed children or spray bullets into crowds. They realize that life is precious and live their lives moving past the fear.

    You can't scare me.

    Boo!

    Please don't shoot out of fear

     


    by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 3:11pm

    Us Vatican II boomer parochial school students were taught that what you are talking about is the difference between Christianity, which follows the Gospels, and the Old Testament. It was the core of everything we were taught: that the Gospels supercede the Old Testament, they are The New Word and the light, the hope and the love for mankind, and mankind's salvation from the world of the Old Testament. Starts with John the Baptist, getting ready for the coming of Christ, baptism washing away the old, getting ready to accept the New Word and a new world without a fear-mongering God: a new covenant. You accept the new covenant when you are baptized.

    And I should note that even before Vatican II, Catholics were never encouraged to read the Old Testament, was considered too tricky to interpret it in light of the Gospels, something for scholars, not ordinary people. Same for "the Apochrypha" which includes a lot of the end times scary stuff. (The use of the latter was always and still is a major point of difference with Protestants.) The liturgy was always based on the Gospels alone, even when it was in Latin.

    The reason I am mentioning this is that to me, this is clearly what Pope Francis is stressing; see my quote elsewhere on the thread. As did his namesake. As have most of the Franciscan order over the centuries. (For those with knowledge of Catholicism: yes, what I am saying is that even though he is a Jesuit, I suspect he is going whole hog Franciscan.)


    by artappraiser on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 3:54pm

    Christians have let a group of angry, fearful people become the voice of the religion. enough is enough. If you are scared of modern life with the availability of multiple sources  to tell you all the bad things going on, along with twerking representing the end of civilization, then just say you are scared .Don't use Christianity as a crutch.

    You are correct about the Good News message.


    by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 4:04pm

    The good news is the  promise "and a little while longer and the wicked will be no more" will have its fulfillment, as the supporters of false religious teachings and the bearers of false hopes, will be gone forever, leaving those declared righteous to live forever in paradise; free from their influence .. The scripture says "even a wicked father knows how to give good gifts to their children"; proving; it isn't goodness that saves, but the one doing the will of God, remains forever.....Yet again, as you have so continuously replied to me, about how much better you are than I, because you don't live in fear of that day..... Another one of your delusions; an idea shared by so many on the "wide a spacious road, leading to death" an idea that allows the worlds leaders into disregarding; that there will be consequences for their actions, just as you will be held accountable for yours .......  To be a Christian, one must always keep in mind, "the beginning of wisdom is FEAR".  So again the spreading of your  interpretations, as to what is required, is in conflict to what is commanded .... The scriptures says that when the King takes his throne, he will put an end to all the other kingdoms of the Earth. Yet you would promote, that which has been declared worthy of destruction, namely the organizational structures implemented by the ones to be destroyed ?... No matter how you want to spin it, doing good in the eyes of the world isn't what gains people their salvation...... Otherwise, why would we have needed the sacrifice of the High priest, if doing good was all we needed?...... Those who sin will surely die, not based upon your perceived  ideas of what is goodness. Christians are warned to be fearful and remain fearful of that Great Day,  in case they should ever acquire a heart, that ignores his commandments. For it is written " beware,  there is pride before the fall"... Patting yourself on the back, for the good you do in behalf of the Nations, doesn't protect you.  Taking care of those within your immediate  family and the whole association of true spiritual brothers. is what is rewarded. ... The scriptures warned of the day, when people who mistreated his people would be judged and that they would ignore the Great Day because they didn't fear it.


    by Resistance on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 6:48pm

    You repeatedly prove that you are fearful. You are fearful spiritually and you are fearful on the secular plane, thus the focus on the gun. God loves you and wants you to succeed. He picks you up when you fall. You miss the joy in the Christian message which can carry you through hard times. You spend a great deal of time condemning others. I never said that I was better than you. I merely offered a different point of view. 

    Christians should love the poor and care for them. It is a blessing.those who preach a Gospel of Selfishness are not spreading the Good News. As Ezekiel noted Sodom fell because of the harsh treatment it gave to the poor, widows and immigrants. Mathew gives the tales of the selfish who were sent away for not clothing and feeding the poor. Those who fed and clothed the poor were blessed.

    Yes, there Paul's words in Thessalonians that state that he who does not work will not eat. That does not apply to children or widows or even those put out of work by a nation that sends jobs overseas. The words of Paul were a favorite of Karl Marx and the communist leaders in Russia. Those words are now being picked up by the Tea Party and the GOP. A nation that abuses the poor will itself be abused. 

    I am comfortable with my position. You are not the ultimate judge. I laugh at your folly as you try to spread a message of fear rather than joy. You are shackled and don't realize that fact. I will pray for you.


    by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 7:03pm

    I never said that I was better than you. 

    The irony is that he is constantly (and oh-so-humbly) implying how much greater he is than us. That he knows better than others what the true way to salvation is, and that he understands the true meaning of this true salvation better than even those who share essentially the same faith as he. Of course, he won't acknowledge this as an issue of humility, if he acknowledges it at all.


    by Verified Atheist on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 7:13pm

    You continue your Cliffnotes review of the Bible spreading fear and harsh judgment. You miss the joy. You are not the ultimate judge. You cannot scare people into accepting your misguided interpretation of scripture. it must be a horrible thing to live in spiritual fear rather than spiritual joy. It must be horrible to live in secular fear and need to be armed to feel safe.

     


    by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 7:08pm

    You are too kind. I can't imagine any Cliffnotes version of the Bible that says anything like that. Sounds like something more along the lines of war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength.


    by artappraiser on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 7:20pm

    Found a good 'toon on that, maybe of help to you elsewhere if encountering similar:

    http://www.mattbors.com/blog/2011/06/01/not-rapture-ready/

    My favorite part is the "Slacker" t-shirt he's wearing.smiley


    by artappraiser on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 9:47pm

    Also easily found an example of Resistance doing the same Rapture thing on Dagblog more than 2 1/2 years ago, using a lot of the same language.


    by artappraiser on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 10:16pm

    Easily found? Are you keeping a dossier so you can stalk?  I thought that was a considered a violation to do so? At the least, hitting below the belt, or is it your purpose to re-ignite old arguments? 


    by Resistance on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 11:32pm

    .


    by Resistance on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 6:53pm

    I'd like to be there and see your face, when your bowels let loose, when confronted by the events that will cause you to fear and I hope you'll remember how you mocked the warning. 


    by Resistance on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 6:53pm

    There is spiritual hate in that message that runs counter to the very core of Jesus' teaching. (You'd take pleasure in another person's suffering? Really?) I know, of course, that you'll reject this message since a mere heathen couldn't possibly begin to understand the nuances of hate-as-love that your interpretation of the New Testament brings.


    by Verified Atheist on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 7:15pm

    wow, that comment veers way beyond schaudenfreude and more towards heavy duty sicko sadism.


    by artappraiser on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 7:44pm

    Something you would know about.? Or is it one of your personal attacks towards me. 


    by Resistance on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 11:21pm

    So, this is what turns you on.


    by moat on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 9:03pm

    I vaguely recall in the past, you and others always defending the Sodomites, is that something that turns you on? 


    by Resistance on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 11:24pm

    My, my, my you're so Christ-like. I'm sure he wanted to see people suffer.   Oh wait...


    by tmccarthy0 on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 9:10pm

    Oh wait?  

    Maybe you were remembering   His only begotten son, suffered and died at the hands of men and it is righteous on his part, to return and do the same to the ridiculers and lovers of bad? But it is clear enough to me, just as some Sodomites, will always excuse their conduct. so will all the other unrighteous. I am reminded of the verse found at  1 Corinthians 6:9 In short  

    "What? Did you not know, that some will not inherit Gods kingdom."

    and instead they will perish and will be left on the ground as manure, to be fed upon by the birds?  Beat your chests in lamentations now.

    Let your kingdom come and replace the fools and ridiculers. Can I get an Amen?  smiley    


    by Resistance on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 10:37pm

    You won't be there because you are not a prophet ordained by Christ. Your prediction of the end-times is wrong as well. You spew venom. I will pray for you.


    by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 9:13pm

    I don't need to be a prophet, I only need to read their written words and get the sense of it.  Too bad you don't;. as you keep misleading others 

    …13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

    Galatians 1:8
    But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!"
    I wonder If people under Gods curse, end up suffering a bad fate?
     
    How many will find desirable, the lies the unrighteous spread, accepting it as something valuable only to gnash and grind their teeth, knowing they have lost out on life in the New paradise? 

    by Resistance on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 11:07pm

    More CliffNote snippets. As far as calling God cruel, go back and look at the cruelty you say God will rain down.

    Let me state this again regarding the poor

    Matthew 25:31-46
    King James Version (KJV)
    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
     
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
     
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
     
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
     
    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
     
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
     
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
     
    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
     
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
     
    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
     
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
     
    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
     
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
     
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
     
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
     
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
     
    God says to take care of the poor. To disobey this edict risks banishment.
     
    Paul makes the following statement
     
    2 Thessalonians 3:10
    King James Version (KJV)
    10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
     
    This snippet has been used to state that the Bible tells us to punish the poor. Karl Marx, Russian communists and Tea Party members take comfort in this line. It is being used in the US to punish food supplementation for the poor. Paul's statement seems aimed at the able bodied person who refuses to work. It does not hone in on the poor. God was clear when he stated that we should care for the poor. The command from God is more important than an utterance from Paul about the lazy. 
     
     
     

    by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 11:30pm

    That thought relates to Muslims and Hindu's and a host of other religions as well.

     


    by Richard Day on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 10:45am

    It also applies to statutes that allow outrageous behavior by governments. Jailing people for speaking out against a government, seizing property, suppressing votes,etc have been used in countries from Russia to the United States.


    by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 12:11pm

    RESPONSE TO ALL DAGGERS:

    I refrained from answering individual comments because I lack the deep knowledge of the Catholicism, Church history, etc.  I am heartened that so many smart people think of this as a more concrete step in the right direction than I am giving it credit for.  I tend to react as an outsider affected by the Church's role in politics.  But, I can be persuaded to lighten up.  Thanks for all of the thoughtful commentary on this.


    by Michael Maiello on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 10:19am

    You are a big man to say that, Michael.

    Now, we are having a guest preacher over at the church on Sunday and I thought perhaps..........


    by Oxy Mora on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 10:25am

    Michael,

    The nicest thing a client ever said to me was "thank you", after he had asked me a question and I said: "I don't know."  

    Great blog.


    by Bruce Levine on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 4:39pm

    Hey, I said I'd place my bet, if forced to, with others' opinions over yours, but I didn't say it was a bet without risk.  Pope Francis is not a young man, if you know what I mean. The only sure thing is that things change, and then they change again, but with the Roman Catholic church, this cycle does run on much slower RPM's than the rest of the world. Your reaction is well worth taking in. And Donal's story of his daughter's choice was a confirmation for it.


    by artappraiser on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 4:52pm

    I'm your biggest fan, Michael. I certainly didn't mean to be argumentative, and it's not at all clear that knowing more of the Vatican catchphrases makes me more likely to be right.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 7:20pm

    I'm locking comments on this thread. Once someone expresses the desire to see someone else's bowels loosen, the conversation is really over. Or things have to move to a totally different part of the internet.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 11:48pm

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