Hal also assumes his key issues are shared by the average voter, or that the average voter will see the huge differences he does. I'm pretty sure the average American doesn't know what the Keystone pipeline is, and doesn't see TPP as affecting them much at all. For a politics fan, which candidate supported or opposed something earlier may matter - for most people, they're simply looking at the now (and the now will more come in January/February as they start to pay attention). A position of "$12-$15" vs "$15" on the minimum wage doesn't draw ire from most people - they rightfully see both as a huge increase over the current $7.25/hour. Aside from pocketbooks, probably the only issues registering are guns and terrorism and refugees/immigrants. They simply don't care about making Obamacare single payer - if they are upset, they're more likely been led to think it should be repealed.

Voters often don't vote their own interests - a major feat in the 80's/90's was getting the typical American to identify with the Dow Jones average, even when the majority weren't investing. IRAs and 403(b)s got us all rooting somehow for Wall Street and stock prices. It's the same principle of spreading defense dollars out to every congressional district - no one will give up their little piece for the greater good.

It's easier to draw a crowd when you speak out against the status quo, but there's a reason why the status quo got there - it's usually the most popular bland ugly compromise. Most innovation is incremental, not pie-in-the-sky.

Most people are not that angry at Wall Street, or at least not compared to other things as well. #Occupy Wall Street  got traction among liberals and a news-starved media, but it didn't come close to a revolution. 

Do I think any of these arguments will persuade Hal? extremely doubtful - he has his opinions and thought processes, I have mine. Probably we're more wedded to the lather-rinse-repeat futility of arguing the same things over and over - the frustration is so fulfilling, like something caught in your teeth that you'd rather poke at with your tongue for an hour than go get a floss or toothpick..

PS - Jerry McNerney, congressman for San Francisco's east side, just came out forcefully for HIllary because of her proposals & activity on climate and environmental issues. I assume he's rather liberal/progressive, and I would guess he's not BS'ing as to his evaluation of her - what do you think, Hal - is this a plus for Hillary, not enough compared to Bernie, misleading, McNerney's angling for a cabinet position, or .....? Does he argue well enough?

I don't quite understand how Obama was the stacked longshot winner last time, but the same candidate Hillary is the establishment candidate this time - so the people somehow won in 2008?  the guy who was going to represent women better than a woman could?

I just don't think there are that many candidates, and this is about the best we can manage. Yeah, people manage to be disappointed with our system - it's a big lumbering arbitrary machine, especially once the media distortion begins.

But folks complaining about the "true purpose" of the party and the way it should be seem to be too young to remember the party & backroom selection process in 1968, the free-for-all and meltdown in 1972. Good Boss Tweed stuff plus an appetite for (self) destruction. Things are 100 times more transparent now, but people still want to feel victimized. Hey, the DNC should be scouring the streets and alleys for new blood, set up 1000 debates. Except I was all for the 50-state plan which would have been our farm club, but Obama shut any semblance of that down when he won.

Weirdly enough, the candidate I wanted in 2008 is blamed both for her traditional evil conniving ways, but also everything bad her opponent who won did* - instead of "I told you so" I get transferral & accumulation of damage - heads you win, tails I lose stuff - and somehow the new guy on the block will cure all the improprieties of the party, just like McGovern, then Gary Hart, then Nader, then.... so just pull the handle, overcome my adolescent fears and support for the Gang of Four...

*They told me a vote for Humphrey would lead to war, poverty and fighting in the street. So I voted for Humphrey, and that's what I got....