Greece and a global anti-austerity movement.

     

    Could the OXI vote on the Greek referendum on Sunday be the beginning of something big? I mean a kind of beneficial contagion, a world wide movement, something which would impact nations and continents, that would reverse wealth concentration and focus on the problems of slow growth and unemployment of the youth---not to mention address abject poverty in many parts of the world? Howard Fineman thinks something's afoot in the Greek referendum---as he writes in an article today, The beginning of the Great Austerity Backlash.

    Not only did Fineman's article get me thinking in larger terms but there were many perceptive comments in these pages over the weekend as bloggers here hashed out the details of the Greek referendum. The question was asked by NCD, in effect, ....is Tsipras a flash in the pan, or will he become a person who changed history? Cleverly as put, ....will generations ahead wear T-shirts with his picture on it?

    I think the answer to that question is not if he can only achieve marginal improvements in new negotiations---in other words, a compromise which will take years to bring Greece back to normalcy. And if he merely strings the process along in a recalcitrant manner which just wastes time and then results in Grexit and chaos, he could become the despot who scapegoats others but can't achieve actual results.

    Another answer to the question of Tsipras' legacy is that it depends upon whether he senses destiny, stays firm, takes the exit and leads the country into the unknown but with an instinct that the principles and solutions are larger than him and his country. This path might lead to something big.  

    If a world wide movement is ignited and Tsipras gets in sync with it, promotes it, becomes one with it, then not only will Greece be transformed but so will other countries. A world wide movement could become a solution to Greece's problems because if Greece is the epicenter of this movement, the amount of resources which could be plowed into the country would be enormous---but by necessity Tsipras and his people would have to nurture and tie into the global momentum.

    Can a U.S. politician like Sanders ride this tiger?  If so, the entire political process in this country becomes a player in an anti-austerity movement that is bigger than the U.S alone. Sanders is the only politician so far who is connecting the dots of austerity, bank over-reach, oligarchy and slow growth. Greece is the walking definition of the picture Sanders is attempting to create with speeches.

    I don't know if Sanders has the follow through. What is needed is a Teddy Roosevelt or George Marshall.

    The questions over these days of the Greek referendum and aftermath are distilled into one---what will Tsipras do?  The answer is that he can think just in Greek terms or he can catch a much bigger wave that might be forming further out at sea. If he can catch that wave a world-wide movement could emerge and Greece's problems solved in the process.

    Fineman's article intrigued me but then left me flat, so I had to imagine something more, hence this post. Of course, Greece can't be the beginning of the Great Austerity Backlash unless the great program begins and Tsipras helps form the wave and rides it. Otherwise you'd eventually have to write something like, "....the Greek referendum wasn't the beginning of the Great Austerity Backlash, but preceded it"---assuming the movement happens.     

    Comments

    Much obliged for the link. And tip of the hat to NCD and trkingmomoe's posts.


    Has it started yet?  Yes months and months ago.  You demand that a country must give up salaries, pensions, schools and social services that are needed for more than 5 years.  You are asking to have your ass kicked politically because people will organize against you. The Eurogroup behaves like pay day lenders.  The political left in Europe has been growing in support.  The leadership in those parties that have in the past agreed with the banks are being replaced with new leadership that wants change. 

    I see the same thing that is going on with Sanders.  People knows he doesn't want power or money but real change so they fill up his venues to support him. They patiently wait for their bumper stickers that they bought on line to support him. He is not part of any political machine and that is very appealing.

    I read a comment this week about what was going on in Greece.

    "They take your job away then come knocking at your door and demand that you look for change from under your couch cushions to pay them."

     


    Greece acts like check kiters and grifters and a bit of carney to work up the crowd.

    I don't think austerity works well for either an honest, hard-working individual or a nation, but there are a million examples around the world of throwing money at countries that are mired in corruption and don't want to reform. Trying to turn this into a class battle or invoking WWII for the Nazi angle or bringing in Putin all pretty much turn me off, and from my part of the EU, no one really cares if Greece leaves the EU anyway. Plus I haven't forgiven Greece for what pricks they were to Turkey during Cyprus' application to the EU (which probably helped turn Turkey much more fundie Muslim today).

    If Greece comes up with a real plan, I'm fairly sure the troika will listen - the EU is a rather political and do-gooder place. But posturing for the cameras and asking debt forgiveness with no real thought to transitioning Greek to productivity & diversified services is asking for more faith than most bankers or even priests are capable of.

    BTW, 1) no one "took" their jobs away - the shipping market changed, as did tourism, and surprise, they had nothing else left  2) the figures of hunger I believe you quoted earlier seem horribly exaggerated - you'd think it was Syria or Eritrea.


    Thanks, Peracles. Tsipras should be focusing on how he can work with businesses and build exports.


    Thanks, Trking.


    Excellent questions, interesting link, and appreciate your thoughts on my previous points on Tsipras.

    It seems to me Greece shows the critical importance of good government. A government that is progressive, collects taxes on the rich, enforces laws fairly, and with a voting population that is informed and demands action, results and accountability.

    Right now Greece seems to have austerity for the average Greek, and anything goes for the rich oligarchs. Sound familiar? The EU is reaching the end of the line for subsidizing inept Greek government.

    Google 'Greece tax evasion' and in addition to 518,000 links, there is even a Wikipedia page on it. Articles say Greece could collect up to 30 billion Euros in tax from cronies and tax evaders.  Tax collectors have had their lives threatened. If you read the articles, Tsipras started out going strong on more efficient tax collection in February, but little was heard about it afterwards.

    The lesson for the public in all nations is, vote wisely and demand government that plays a role in your life that is beneficial and delivers results, for you and the nation. Austerity should start with the rich not the poor.

    As Bernie says democracy was not meant to be a bunch of billionaires battling each other to get their guy in as President.


    Thanks, NCD. Well said.


    It would be huge.  I thought it was going to happen in the U.S. during the financial crisis but I think we saw, very quickly, how the political system coalesces around the financial system and how many people actually support this.  Heck, here everybody knew darned well that their neighbor's mortgage delinquency brought down property values for the whole neighborhood and they still railed against bailing out "losers."

    But some time has passed and some lessons have been learned.  Also, people outside of America seem to have been more willing to explore populism.

    Problem is... Eurocrat Europe -- a combination of Wall Street, the City and Davos but with more rapists per capita than an episode of The Cosby Show is not going to take this lying down.  The ECB is already torturing Greece and you can bet that if Podemos of Sinn Fein win elections that creditors will suddenly turn unfriendly there as well.


    There's an old joke about a guy who gets on a plane 1st class & finds himself next to a parrot that proceeds to get really drunk, cursing out the stewardess "bitch, get me another gin & tonic and make it fucking fast this time", and so on. Seeing the parrot get away with it, the guy starts to get smashed and insult the stewardess too. She finally has enough, and throws them both out of the plane mid-flight. As they're falling, the parrot turns to the guy and says, "you know, for someone without wings, you're pretty ballsy".

    Greece acts like Chavez* but without any oil behind them and while asking for favors. Tito managed to play the Soviet Union off the US successfully, but those days are long gone. Do these Greeks really think they can just stomp their feet and threaten to hold their breath till blue and get a deal? Yes, austerity sucks, but what are they offering as incentive for the Troika or whoever to cut a deal, or bring other Europeans to enough sympathy to demand their governments loosen up?

    *actually Chavez took care of his people pretty well - nationalized oil went to much better priorities than Greek-style mismanagement.


    Great joke and comparison.


    Really like the phrase, "...the political system coalesces around the financial system."


    I'm a bit confused, just a few days ago Oxy was advising the Greek people to behave like good Untermensch and kneel before the fiscal and morally superior Germans. Now they are being saddled with the responsibility of leading a worldwide revolution against the Austerians.  We should thank the Greeks for supplying us with entertaining myths and Heroic Histories but their most relevant gift today is their lexicon of descriptive terms such as Democracy, Oligarchy,  Plutocracy and possibly most relevant today Hypocrisy.

    When i see the descendent of the  Ubermensch pointing their moralistic finger at the Greeks and demanding they pay their debts or when Amerikans point their moralistic finger at the Greeks and demand they reform their corrupt government and stop tax evaders my Hypocrisy Meter screams for an infinite scale.

    Germany was the most successful country in the 20th century at avoiding paying their debts from WW1&2 and as recently as the 1990's after reunification.

    Amerika loses $500 Billion each year to tax fraud and evasion and it's from the same class of people that Greece suffers its losses from. Our corruption may be more sophisticated than other countries but it dwarfs in scale anything these lesser countries can accomplish.

     

     

    .

     


    Because you are such a gentleman and scholar I'm going to relax my rule of not responding to cross-post comments by my hand and repeat that what I said was if I were there and had skin in the game I would have voted "yes", but intellectually as a side liner I was more OXI. Of course now it doesn't matter. Tsipras must get everyone working together. As noted above, he can't just concern himself with bailouts and debt reduction---that's the easy part. The other is the hard part.

    I don't think the U.S. experience relative to tax cheats is relevant to the hard work on Tsipras' plate.


    US experience relative to tax cheats may not be relevant but tax fraud in general is relevant. In the negotiations Tsipras requested aid in finding money that fled the country into secret accounts in tax havens. He was turned down flat. The global system facilitates tax fraud and protects the wealthy that hide their money in tax havens. Then tells Greece it must do better at collecting taxes. It's not just hypocrisy it's an unworkable system that has to change.


    Tsipras requested a blank check, he was turned down, as you say, rich people everywhere try to avoid taxes. That is not a unique problem.

    The EU doesn't run Greece or it's tax authority, and has given them all the legal and financial aid they are entitled to and asked for as an EU member.

    As of today while the Greece economy melts down, they could not even present a new finance proposal to the EU.


    You post on this topic as if you first heard about Greece two weeks before the referendum. You ignore five years of austerity that has caused immense pain to the Greek people with no end in sight and blame a government that has been in power six months. You blame five years of skilled professionals leaving the country on the government that took control six months ago. Instead of acknowledging that colossal error you doubled down. You might notice I didn't repeat my critique of that nonsense when you repeated it. I had decided to stop posting to you on this subject because your posts have destroyed any credibility you might have on this topic. Frankly, I'm simply not interested in wasting my time talking about it with you.


    αντίο!

    Well! Same to you. hahahah


    Ocean you are correct about the tax havens. Yes they did ask for help in going after tax cheaters. 

    That brings us to Jean-Claude Juncker, the current President of the European Commision. the executive branch of the European Union. 

    Luxembourgish politician, Juncker was Prime Minister of his native country from 1995 to 2013, as well asMinister for Finances from 1989 to 2009. He was the longest-serving head of any national government in the EU, and one of the longest-serving democratically elected leaders in the world, by the time he left office,[1] his tenure encompassing the height of the European financial and sovereign debt crisis. From 2005 to 2013 Juncker served as the first permanent President of the Eurogroup.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Juncker

    He took his current position on Nov. 1. 2014.  

    Juncker has stated that his priorities would be the creation of a digital single market, the development of an EU energy union, the negotiation of the Transatlantic trade agreement, the continued reform of the economic and monetary union, with the social dimension in mind and a ‘targeted fiscal capacity’ for the Euro area, as well as to negotiate a new deal with Britain.[7]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Juncker

    He was the key architect of the Maastricht Treaty that created the EU and the Euro. He has spent his whole career protecting the Eurocrats from having to pay taxes creating shelters in Luxemburg.  The treaty is weighted in favor of the oligarchy and Germany. These rules socializes losses and privatizes the profit. There is no debt forgiveness allowed in the rules. His goals is to shrink social programs and protect the wealthy who don't want to support governments with taxes.  The treaty is also not sustainable because of all the structural problems that is in it and needs reformed. 

    He is a true believer of Austrian Economics and the guard dog for the Eurocrats.  He is the person who has the most influence and power.  He is also in denial as well as the German government. That is why he was brought in last fall. As soon as Greece put in power a new government at the end of January and week later the EU started to (as Mike pointed out up thread) economic torture against Greece. They know Greece can't pay back the loans but this whole drama is to keep the other small countries, that are in a depression caused by the EU rules, in line. 

    We get to watch this drama until Sunday. 

     


    Thanks for clearing up my confusion and you embarrass me with your kind regards. I didn't mean to shoot the messenger just better understand the message. The other parts of my comment were addressed to other people's comments here and elsewhere.

    Syriza and all of the Greek government will have to address their national problems but it is probably impossible to do anything constructive without real debt relief and at least suspension of new Austerity demands that have already driven their economy into depression, the worst in Europe since WW2.

    Turning your last statement around i would say that Greece's tax collection problems may be more relevant to our problems than many people think. We are still in the grip of the Great Recession and our government has instituted an austerity regime to reduce our annual deficit and long term debt. The IRS has lost 9% of its workforce because of budget cuts since 2010 and their ability to collect money from tax cheats has suffered and will continue to decline.

     


    I am in agreement with you. There is parallels that can be drawn from our own austerity forced on us by the far right hard liners.  


    Grupdate: "No triumphalism". The new Greek Finance minister, Tsakalotus, flashed notated hotel stationary in front of reporters which inadvertently revealed the Greek strategy except that no one is sure exactly what "no triumphalism" means but appears to relate to a meeting of Euro finance ministers he attended today and said something along the line of,---oops, no proposal today, the concierge lost my only copy.

    The hotel stationary has now gone viral.  And so has Merkel's liver.

    Meanwhile the Greek President, Pavlopoulos sent a letter to the President of the European Council stating in effect that all the parties, except the Communists, agree that negotiations should resume and spelled out terms which look suspiciously like the last set of terms. A copy of the letter was obtained by Robert Person of BBC News and posted on line.  (Link appreciated.)

    Tsipras reportedly called a guy in the U.S. Whitehouse who goes by the name "Obamopulous".

    This looks like the beginning of a monumental austerity backlash or possibly an austerity fuckup. 

     

     


    Thanks Oxy,

    It does look that way.  Obama and the IMF have been sitting on the side lines.  Here are a couple of reasons why.

    Merkel asked Obama to stay out of it.  Obama is a big fan of negotiation and arbitration so he was in favor of letting them try to come to an agreement. The USA President has the largest vote in the IMF. 

    Christine Lagarde, Director of the IMF,  in several speeches and interviews talked about the short falls of austerity and how investment was needed to help countries this spring.  This is from an interview in The Atlantic this spring. She finally released the report that the IMF had on the failure of austerity a couple of days before Greece voted. 

    I asked Lagarde whether the world has entered into a prolonged period of slow economic growth—what economists call “secular stagnation.” She said that she prefers to describe the situation as the “new mediocre,” and explained that global economic growth over the past two years, and again this year, has averaged about 3.5 percent—the same average rate at which the world economy has grown over the last two decades. What has changed, Lagarde noted with concern, is the nature of that growth: “It is not creating the jobs that are needed and job creation is spread out in a way that does not respond to the needs. It is also not sufficiently boosting productivity and, surprisingly, emerging markets, which have the potential to grow at a much faster pace, are not doing so.”

    When I asked if inadequate growth is related to the austerity programs adopted in many countries after the 2008 financial crisis, Lagarde argued that the debate between economic austerity and growth is a false one. “They are not mutually exclusive. You can have fiscal discipline and strong growth,” she said. The pragmatic reconciling of what others see as irreconcilable is another element of the Lagarde Consensus.

    Lagarde takes a similar stance on economic inequality, a subject that has rarely topped the IMF’s agenda in the past. She has fixed the organization’s attention on the issue, and is especially interested in how the policies that the IMF recommends affect women. I asked if she agreed with the French economist Thomas Piketty, who posits that growing economic inequality is driven by forces deeply embedded in the capitalist system. “I am one of those who believes that the capitalist system leaves enough room for innovation and who values the forces of markets, but within a regulatory environment that provides governments the tools to respond to inequality,” she responded. What’s the primary cause of this inequality: freer trade, technological advancements, the financial system, government policies that favor the rich? “Technology,” she said, “but also finance, which concentrates vast resources on a small group. And I would also add culture as a factor. Especially when culture limits opportunities for women. And corruption, of course.”  

     http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/04/the-christine-lagarde-consensus-imf/390309/

    This was something she repeated often, as I was researching her.  She had also said that they were studying this and would release a report later.  The report was held because Obama asked her not to release it.  ( My personal feeling is she is the best thing that has happened to the IMF after a string of inept right wing and sometimes currupt directors.)

    The IMF was the third leg of the Troika after the ECB and Eurogroup.  Once Greece could not make payment last week on the loan from the IMF, the IMF could not loan any more financial help to Greece until the loan is paid. So all the negotiations has been between Junker, Eurogroup and Greece.  

    The vote on the referendum was important so Greece could move forward in a Democratic way. How much of this has been carefully thought out with the help of the Whitehouse indirectly through Lagarde and our best economist?  I also need to put Janet Yellen in that group because she also has been at Lagarde's side on this in group panels that I have seen and read. 

    I think Oxy you are beginning to think the same way I have been thinking that we are going to find out what part the US is going to play when Greece has to leave the Euro. Lagarde is not going to leave Greece twisting in the wind. 

    P. S. Talk about liver.  It has been reported in more then one article that Jean-Claude Junker has the same drinking habits as John Boehner.  


    Everyone please if you get a chance read the above article in The Atlantic from April. She gives some interesting statements on Greece.  That leads me to believe the moves that have been made by Greece has some support. 


    Trking, thanks for posting this article, she seems to be the most moderate voice among the players.

    Fascinating interview of Moscovici, the eonomics commissioner of the European Commission, on Bloomberg this morning. Tsipras is supposed to have a proposal on the table by Thursday, with Sunday being the day of judgment at the European Council.

    Moscovici repeatedly used the terms "taxation" and "pensions" as being synonymous with "reform".  Apparently the Commission is looking for something new and nothing happens unless they get that "something". 

    Moscovici dodged the question on debt reduction---that being depended on the new plan by Greece. He also kept using the term "delivery", "delivery" Tpsiras must "deliver".

    Separately, Greece has applied for a loan from the Stability Mechanism---don't you love these terms?

    Now while I was typing this, I got a phone call---"your business has been selected for a $250,000 loan". I hung up before I heard who it was and the terms---maybe in was a Stability Mechanism.

     


    Banking "dog whistles."  The reforms have to come from the Central banking. This is not a morality issue but a structural issue of the system.  The Greeks have given all that they can and have been meeting their payday lenders demands until this summer. Kicking the Greeks out will not save the Austrians from their bad models.  

    Smart people have been pointing out the flaws of the Euro since it's beginning in 1992.  Some countries have joined the union but refused to use the currency because of the flaws that are now being displayed.  Other's joined knowing about the flaws but felt the system would get the reforms it needed after things got going. Not enough reforms happened. The UK don't seem so self centered now for not using it.  They were highly criticized for refusing but the Brits understood more about international banking then the rest of Europe having been in the game as a international currency for centuries. 


    Piketty points out that Germany never repaid its debt so it should not lecture Greece.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-06/piketty-germany-has-never-repai...


    Rmrd, very good article, great reference.

    I also thought the website was interesting. Just curious, have you signed up for this site.


    No,I haven't signed up. It was a link from an article on HUFFpost.


    The German elite, and for that matter any other elites, do not respond well to irony, history or reality, they have agendas to pursue and interests to protect.


    Reality Check: Germany - Having just spent a month touring Europe last summer, the reality in Germany for us could not be beat. Trains run on time, stations, cities and villages vibrant and clean, food excellent, people friendly and seem very content, solar panels everywhere you look. Can't wait to go back.

    Of course we had just spent a couple weeks in France, where there were 4 separate (rail, airport, taxi, dock) transportation strikes over a period of 10 days.

    Most TGV's canceled for over a week, refunds impossible, and train employees (who else could do it?) smashing station door windows and cutting overhead electric lines near Avignon disabling at least one train in the middle of nowhere overnight (in France they call it 'industrial action) (a couple hundred French dock workers have shut the Eurostar from London to Paris for a few days this June over the sale of  a few ferries to a Dutch firm). Vagrants dropping trousers and peeing under the Eiffel Tower, illegal boos being sold in same area with not a gendarme in sight. Tires being burned in the streets of Nice and Paris.

    Another reality, German union membership is about 3 times that of France, and in recent times their federal budget is in surplus, the only one in the EU other than Latvia.

     


    Latvia, there must be a mother load of elites there. I understand their position now is that Greece should take the exit.

    I just wonder about elites---seems new Greek Minister attended St.Paul's and then Oxford. Have any of these guys ever refused lunch at one of the meetings?

     


    A joke I presume as to 'elites' in Latvia. And the Greece reps never picked up the tab at the lunch either!

    Latvia is one of 13 EU nations that spend less per pensioner than Greece (EL on chart). Latvia's (LV) average cost per pensioner is less than 1/2 that of Greece. Germany spends only 18% or so more per retiree than Greece and is next to them on the chart below (DE).


    NCD, the definition of "pensioner" seems to me to be critical in understanding what the EU is really after when they couch "reform" in terms of "taxation and pensions"----which I'm beginning to take as a euphemism for "clean up the mess in your political system, end clientelism, figure out how to collect taxes, including the oligarchs" (as disagreeable as that category may seem to the Northerners.


    Tsiprias Syriza strategy as portrayed in Blazing Saddles:

    'This is a European crisis'


    HAhahahah.


    I recommend a Foreign Affairs article, Nov/Dec issue, "Misrule of the Few". How the Oligarchs ruined Greece--to wit, the problem in Greece is political inequality. Will another bailout, etc., really address the problem?


    Thanks for comment, Peter. I'm more in the esthetic self-denial camp, so yes, I agree with you about elites.


    "they have agendas to pursue and interests to protect" - uh, that is reality. In la-la- land, politicians and bureaucrats are free actors pursuing enlightenment and karmic adjustment. Actually, I'd say it axiomatic of a true elite as those who have no worries or responsibilities.


    I read this last night.  It was a great interview and showed how political the banking had become. Piketty didn't back down from the misinformation that the interviewer was trying to point out as fact. 

    Germans was also given a debt reduction and restructuring  in 1990 to help them unify their country after the wall came down. This was before the Euro. I personally don't think the Euro would have happened had it not been for the collapse of the USSR.  


    Thanks, trking. I admire Piketty and he may be entirely correct in his comments about Germany. But what I seem to be understanding about the coming Greek proposal, et.al, is that it is not entirely about debt restructuring. The real question seems to be, even if Greece received additional loans, got debt restructuring, etc., how do they intend to run the country?  I think the Commissioners have no idea in hell who Tsipras is or what his real agenda is---and they are hoping to pin him down in the coming proposal. All of which the EU will have to get a handle on by Sunday night.


    Except Piketty doesn't see the difference between reparations vs. debt and irresponsible borrowing. Or in the case of East Germany and the rest of East Europe, having your country illegally occupied for 40 years.

    East Germany of course got a much better deal than the rest of "New Europe" entering the EU from behind the Iron Curtain. How sympathetic do you think the Poles, Czechs, Romanians and Bulgarians towards Greece? Poland, Slovakia & Czech are nearing Greek monthly salary (Estonia passed it), but others are still far behind - these are countries who had grey obsolete factories 25 years ago, and Croatia went through a civil war, while the Greeks have been blessed with peace  and EU membership + credits and lovely tourist beaches and easy access to Mediterranean markets - what the hell have they been doing, and why do they think Europe is thrilled to bail them out? What is their real plan for stimulating their economy and restructuring their debt in a *reasonable* way, aside from the futile hope that there will some populist anti-Brussels/Germany uprising among the peasantry?


    The problem is that no one knows what the solution is. But most people seems to know what the solution isn't. It's not more austerity that is destroying the economy and people's lives. Some claim the depression this austerity has caused is worse than the depression in the 30's. It would almost be acceptable if it was the medicine that brought about the cure but it seems that more austerity will simply drive Greece deeper into a depression with no end in sight.

    I also think it's relevant to look at how Greece got into this situation. Basically a scam run by Goldman Sachs, that the Greek government at the time took part in, but with Goldman stabbing them in the back in the end. This isn't the best article I've read on the subject, just one I could find. Why were the banks bailed out? There's the concept of moral hazard. If banks make bad loans, especially with fraudulent paperwork. and they are not only not prosecuted but bailed out what's to stop such behavior in the future? Many suggest that Wall Street is back to the same shenanigans they were before the Great Recession and are setting us up for another crash.

    I've read that only 11% of the bailout loan money was used to help the Greek economy. 89% was sent back to pay off the loans made by the banks.

    This talk of better tax collection is too late really. The austerity has depressed the economy and caused to much unemployment. Unemployed people don't pay taxes. Europe can sacrifice Greece but the problems won't go away. Portugal, Italy, Spain are all facing a similar situation.

    The Greeks have a choice, more austerity, more depression more suffering with no end in sight or leave the Euro and get more depression and more suffering but with a possible end somewhere down the road. Or will Europe offer a third path?

     


    "Some claim the depression this austerity has caused is worse than the depression in the 30's." - this kind of inflated rhetoric doesn't help anyone take the problem seriously - it just makes me feel someone's trying to push some agenda distorted from reality. No, we're nowhere close to the depression of the 30's, so maybe the Greeks can put on their reality sneakers, find some perspective shoelaces, and get back in the 21st Century Olympics, not the 20th or 19th. As someone noted, many of these tax avoidance mini-oligarch ways were developed under hundreds of years under the Ottoman Empire - but the EU is hardly the Ottomans - it's a voluntary association based on mutual goals and cooperation and requirements and even trust. Yes, it's got an absurd bent to it with 28 quite differing voices and constituencies, but Greece has been in since 1981 - the 10th member state. It should be functioning as an elder statesman, not a charity child, and the kind of juvenile ploy the other day when Tsipras went back to the Troika with absolutely no re-jiggered gameplan post-referendum was just maddening - read the EU papers, people were seriously astounded. First the Putin card, then the Nazi card, then the referendum card, then... he must think these people are easily impressed or swayed. If they've got a crisis, he better get serious. The French seem hyper-eager to move on this - that losing Greece would be a travesty - but he's not even giving them the leeway or glimmer of irrational hope to rewrite the debts.


    By all accounts I've seen the unemployment is greater than the depression in the 30's. I assume social services like food stamps are greater so suffering is somewhat mitigated. More so than with soup kitchens in the 30's. So while tax revenues are down government costs are up, like in all depressions. What's the end game for the PIGS? How do they get out of austerity and back to a stable growing economy? We were lucky to have a nice WW that put hundreds of thousands of men to work, and women too in factories on the home front.

    Periodically capitalism needs a reset. The rich buy their politicians and get this or that benefit until the system gets so far tilted that the inequality becomes unsustainable in a demand driven system. We're pretty much at that time now. Part of that reset would be looking at where the rich hide their money as Greece requested.

    There are trillions of dollars, billions in tax dollars, in the banks of nations that arrange their economies around hiding rich folks money from their government's tax collectors. It would be easy to force them to open their books to scrutiny as all other banks do. America made some small strides in that direction by threatening to deny Swiss banks access to the normal banking system. Greece doesn't have the leverage to do that alone. Why won't all the major nations of the world shut down these tax havens? They're all losing tax dollars. I can think of only one reason, the rich still have a sufficient number of politicians on the payroll to protect them and their money.


    It's hard for me to guess who actually has jobs and income off the books, and of course much of the country is on pension (we didnt have those in '32) but April figures for Greece dropped to 25.6%. Here's an overview for the US depression - Canada had it worse, was going to look up other countries but on mobile too painful. I'm simply not convinced Greece's suffering bears comparison to the Great Depression. http://www.gwu.edu/~erpapers/teachinger/glossary/great-depression.cfm

    And of course in 1932, there wasn't a bigger country around to help bail the US with its debts and lack of growth via loans and haircuts - the buck stopped in Washington, literally, and took several years to get moving again while the US had to help others out as well. The global dimension of the Greek crisis? Not much.


    Kat, I was trying to fine some specifics on outflows vs. bailout and came up with the chart which I referenced in my reply to Peracles below.


    Oxi, here is an video that just was made available through Australian media. I can't embed it. The meeting is being held in France.

    http://www.news.com.au/video/id-ttankzdjp_DSi0NPkZ9d4P14x3lRyIR3/France--Greek-crisis-proves-EU-project-dying---Farage

    ​Here is another one. I am watching them as they come in. 

    http://www.news.com.au/video/id-Noa3kzdjrgVIsTnI8UZJ6SrPauzTCxLc/France--All-sides-share-responsibility-for-Greek-crisis---Tusk


    Thanks, trying to play them.

    Hey, I am embarrassed to ask this but my computer is screwed up, would you mind putting in a link on the Foreign Affairs article I referenced in my comment to NCD just above? Thanks.


    OK,  I found it.  I had to look a little.  

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/greece/misrule-few


    You know trkingmomoe, you're pretty awesome. Just thought I 'd mention that.


    Thank you,  I think this year is going to be one for the history books. Since 2008 we have been kicking the can down the road and the road has run out.  We have been pretending the economy is doing fine when it has been very sluggish all over. This includes the world. Politicians pampering the oligarchy just isn't working. 


    I second that.


    Agreed.


    Now wait a minute, it's the greed that's the real problem here.


    So it's not a Euro problem - it's an EU mismanagement problem. Of course Greece probably shouldn't have been let into the EU, much less the Euro - what's to be done now?


    The CFR article by Pavlos Eleftheriadis gives a detailed history of Greek corruption but he doesn't supply answers as to what to do about it except blaming the EU, IMF and 'Brussels', not the enfranchised voting population of Greece, it is a democracy and sovereign nation, not a colony:

    "By bailing out Greece without demanding fundamental reforms....have only strengthened the status quo...lined the pockets of the very forces...(given) short term political advantage...meanwhile Brussels has proved incapable of combating cronyism and criminality..."

    Sorry but Greece is a democracy. A democracy run by Greeks, accountable to Greeks, and the Greek people must take on and end cronyism, endemic criminality, break up corrupt unions, collect taxes etc., and turn off their TV sets if all they get is propaganda (which they apparently did for the referendum, as the oligarch TV station owners wanted a yes vote.)

    Brussels cannot change the political culture of Greece.

    The EU and the IMF are trying to use the pressure of loans to change the 'status quo', loans are their only weapon, Greece is a sovereign state and is responsible for the formation of a government to make and enforce laws within it's borders.

    Perhaps ending the loans and letting the chips fall where they may is the only solution, hoping that Greeks eventually work out their own problems. The alternative is for both the EU and the people of Greece to continue on the same trajectory, to the detriment of both.


    Seems like it will all depend upon what proposals the Greeks actually come up with tomorrow. Maybe the Grexit would  be best, with any additional funds going more directly to those who are most adversely affected instead of being siphoned off in patronage.

    Or maybe the EU will invent a bankruptcy procedure---still it's the "reforms" that count.


    Very little of the bail outs went to Greece but directly to the Banks that should not have lent them money in the first place.  They knew Greece probably would not be able to pay them back.  Why would they lend the money? They didn't. They bailed their own banks out pretending to bail out Greece.  Why didn't they cut Greece lose before this?  Did they really want to help Greece or did they want to use Greece as their proving ground for their austerity models?  The Eurogroup has 18 different countries with 18 different fiscal policies. 

    Greece agreed to the reforms at first and complied. Only the models they were using to "target fiscal policies" did not produce the increase in GDP they said they would. Just the opposite happened and the demand side of the economy tanked.  OK, they tried a second round of bail outs and an other austerity model of "targeted fiscal policies and reforms,"  Things just got worse.  

    We can pick apart Greece increasing the pensions and putting family members to work in the government.  These were attempts to get demand back into the economy.  And what corruption was there did not siphon off all the GDP points that these models promised. Instead it created a deep economic depression. The models were deeply flawed. The economical fundamentals that was put in place did not work and all the economist that was worth their salt has been telling Troika that this was not going to work. 

    Today Greece will present their reforms.  I expect another ovation from supporting members of the Eurogroup like yesterday and dirty looks from Juncker.  

        


    "Very little of the bail outs went to Greece but directly to the Banks that should not have lent them money in the first place. " - uh, first, money was lent under fraudulent expectations, then as a bailout, and partly from speculators.

    "In February 2010, the new government of George Papandreou (elected in October 2009) admitted a flawed statistical procedure previously had existed, before the new government had been elected, and revised the 2009 deficit from a previously estimated 6%–8% to an alarming 12.7% of GDP.[66] In April 2010, the reported 2009 deficit was further increased to 13.6%,[67] and the final revised calculation, using Eurostat's standardized method, set it at 15.7% of GDP; the highest deficit for any EU country in 2009.

    The figure for Greek government debt at the end of 2009 was also increased from its first November estimate at€269.3 billion (113% of GDP)[68][69] to a revised €299.7 billion (130% of GDP)."

    The article notes that Greek bond offerings were oversubscribed 4x, but those greedy speculators were then required to take a haircut - lower rates, longer maturities, etc.

    So who were the idiots that lent the Greeks money? Oh, it was the EU, European Bank and IMF to keep the system from collapsing, along with slower than expected action by the Greeks. Yes, this was probably all expected, but 

    the Troika responded by launching a€110 billion bailout loan to rescue Greece from sovereign default and cover its financial needs throughout May 2010 until June 2013, conditional on implementation of austerity measures, structural reforms, and privatization of government assets.[77] A year later, a worsened recession along with a delayed implementation by the Greek government of the agreed conditions in the bailout programme revealed the need for Greece to receive a second bailout worth €130 billion (including a bank recapitalization package worth €48bn), while all private creditors holding Greek government bonds were required at the same time to sign a deal accepting extended maturities, lower interest rates, and a 53.5% face value loss.[78]

    The second bailout programme was finally ratified by all parties in February 2012, and by effect extended the first programme, meaning a total of €240 billion was to be transferred at regular tranches throughout the period of May 2010 to December 2014. Due to a worsened recession and continued delay of implementation of the conditions in the bailout programme, in December 2012 the Troika agreed to provide Greece with a last round of significant debt relief measures, while the IMF extended its support with an extra €8.2bn of loans to be transferred during the period of January 2015 to March 2016.

    Of course part of the way they work is loans to keep smaller banks & investors still in the game - otherwise the Troika becomes the only banking partner for a failed state. I'm sure there was arm twisting to get risky investments, but they do try to give the impression of *profit* as a reason to throw money into a disaster zone. Without that, investors & banks would put money in more certain less-risky ventures, like seaweed processing and fluorine-powered flying machines


    In connection with "where did all the bailout money go" the following might hold some answers.

    Under your Wikipedia reference and your link "77" is underneath a link"79", "European Commission Occasional Papers (translated how the EU is doing running the government of Greece..Subtitles,
    The Second Economic Adjustment Programe,

    Fourth Review, April 2014.

    My operative here is page 72, Table 11, Financing Needs 2012-2016, the point of this shaggy poodle reference being the large outflow (some 80 B Euros under PSI, which as everyone knows is the Private Sector Involvement.

    I'm way out of my depth here, but suffice it to say that implicit in the large PSI outflow was a writedown of Private Sector Debt of 50%.

    The other schedules of debt, GDP, interest payments, debt repayments are a good overview.

    This report certainly contained little that would have predicted what happened in the rest of 2014 and 2015. It was mentioned that an EU payment had not been made because the Greeks were tardy in their review.( wow ) I assume by the publishing date of April things were already going south but sounded sunny as the Commission staff put on the rose colored glasses to justify their sorry asses. It's like your parents visited your dormitory room, graded you on your housekeeping, gave you your allowance for the semester and left self-satisfied not knowing you were a closet druggie and had run up $20 K on debts gambling on the internet.

    Then again, maybe the seeds of destruction had already been preordained in the austerity measures---as seems to be the prevailing view. 


    A Greek businessman on Tsipras, NYT:

    Mr. Manisoitis said, “I’m pretty sure Tsipras won’t have a single idea of what to do if we’re out of the euro.”

    Which is exactly Tsipras plan, See Blazing Saddles above.

    My guess is they get the money and the can is kicked down the crooked corrupt (CFR article), or inept in the case of Syriza Greek road.

    Syriza was the 'anti-austerity blame it on others, call them terrorists etc' Party, not the 'anti-Greek cronyism corruption' Party (Greece has no such Party).


    Geez, can't Mr. Day come up with a graphic showing Greeks in the saddle?


    This appears to be a list of items in the new plan.

    Corporate taxes go from 26% to 28%. Wow.

    VAT on luxury goods goes from 10-13%. Guess this is point of sale. Party members frequent such shops, so they're in a good position to audit the retailer.

    Processed foods, restaurants, transport, and some health services go from 13% to 23%.

    Hotel VAT goes from 6.5% to 13%

    No mention so far of the pensioners who are lined up at ATMs trying to draw 120 Euro's for the next week or so.

    Greek islands to continue to enjoy tax breaks.

    So are these proposals such to make a legend of Tsipras?


    Those increases would seem to target the tourist trade. It doesn't appear that the average citizen is spending alot on luxury goods, processed foods, restaurants, transport or hotels - is the tourism industry still strong enough for that to help?


    It looks like the tourist trade suffers, meaning , among other things, less foreign exchange. And if this is going to be the substance of a EU deal, which might also include some debt relief, it is essentially nothing but a face saving band aid for both sides, kicking the can further down the road.

    These particulars were leaked along with several ministers of finance.

    Edit to add: The taxes on processed food could be the sleeper because of the high food imports---depends on the definition of processed food.  


    In 2013, tourism was approximately 13% of their GDP. If tourists shift to Italy or Spain, made more attractive by a drop in the euro's value as well as general fear, it would be devastating. Then again ...

    For all that, however, competing countries would do well not to be too bullish. The immediate economic impact of dropping out of the euro zone would no doubt be more misery. But a return to the drachma, which will undoubtedly be devalued, will make Greece cheaper than its competitors in the medium term. Hoteliers and restaurateurs might prefer to be trading in the single currency but, assuming they can hold on for a few years, the alternative may not as cataclysmic as they fear.

    That's a double-edged sword, though - a tourist might love a devalued currency (just wouldn't expect to use it elsewhere) and therefore be willing to accept the high taxes, but a business owner would essentially lose money on every sale.


    Most likely the shop owner would lower the product price by the same amount, in order to maintain the total cost. I'm thinking that getting any cash from a tourist is nirvana (of course there is the issue of paying the supplier. At least the tourist can use her credit card to get more than 60 Euros.

    I am crushed by the potential drop in Prada sales.

     

     


    But shed no tears for Chanel.


    The country is in real trouble when Chanel and sneakers become a store of value. I'm a kind of  gold bar person myself. Other options might be

    Spam, powdered eggs, ipads.

     

     


    The NYT has the full bailout requirements here.

    It's wishful thinking or even delusion to believe any government in Greece, not to mention Syriza, would seriously try, or even could gain the capacity, to faithfully and effectively fulfill even 1/4 of these pledges.

    The French helped them write it up apparently, the French have great imaginations.

    Expect a repeat crisis in 1-2 years.


    It's not hard to point out lack of competence in Syriza. But the Greek people are not stupid. How did a party that had less than 5% of the vote in 2010 come to control the government in 2015? What happened during those 5 years to cause people to change their vote to what was an obscure party of the left wing fringe? Anyway, stuck so firmly between a rock and a hard place it's hard to see how anyone could competently find a good path forward.


    Europe took a hard right turn in the last 2 decades of the 20th century and has continued to follow that path in politics.  The same thing that happened here.  Could it be that Europe has gone too far right with their monetary policies and Syriza scares them because it is pointing that out to them?  That one size don't fit all. What is good for Germany isn't good for Portugal or Greece. That Southern Europe isn't ever going to be an highly disciplined industrial economy. That the ECB has limits to what their policies can do when it's focus is serving the wealthy investors.  


    Europe went hard right? The EU accepted all the east bloc en masse and gave them tons of money to come up to standard. Yes,after a huge economic crisis you adjust, especially if 3-4 countries are paying the tab. But I don't see jackboots around here, only new roads and schools and solar projects that people are always scamming. The hard right ain't like it used to be I guess.

    I am going to post an link to a different source for the reforms that Greece has offered today. 

    http://www.pappaspost.com/the-greek-proposal-to-the-eurozone-full-text-in-english/ 

    I see plenty of reforms in their tax collection and structure. 

     


    Thanks so much, trkingmomoe, you are more than awesome.

    It will be interesting to analyze this list in terms of previous agreements, how much of it was on the table in June and rebuffed by Tsipras, and how it reflects, or not, a pafh to less inequality in Greek society.

    I suspect a lot of this was already being required by the EU. So, if he gets additional bailout money as a part of this package, his leadership in staging, characterizing and winning the referendum is hard to question.  

    Of course, there is the small issue that his reason for being was to eliminate these kinds of austerity measures.  I wonder how the 60% will react to this.  


    I think one of the hang ups with the ECB was they opposed the collection of taxes on the islands where the rich like to go.  Greece wanted to increase taxes there and remove exemptions.  But Greece needed money to employ the personnel to do this. Austerity cuts had cut to deeply into the budget to do the collection.  They also needed to create laws for tax evasions that would make meaningful punishment to be an incentive to pay taxes that some hotels were avoiding out in the islands. 


    So bad it's good.

    When I wrote this initial post---the theme of anti-austerity backlash and the role of Tsipras, I presented a Grexit option so dire that Tsipras might become legendary---by using the crisis to tie into into a larger movement, eventually bringing Greece back from the brink of oblivion.  

    It turns out that the Euro deal is dire, there is no Grexit, and Tsipras' strategy is to bring in votes from the "opposition" party (supposedly the constituency of the "yes" vote )while simultaneously giving the oligarchs a haircut.

    So, in effect, if the oligarchs do receive a haircut (have they ever?) implementation of the Euro deal may be an anti-austerity backlash by another name.

    In other words, a deal so bad it's good.

    And if Tsipras eventually stays in power and this deal changes Greece in a good way, then yes, we may have a legend on our hands.   


    Are you saying Tsipras (likely by accident) has messed up Greece so bad it will be good, not only for Greece but Europe?

    If so is he a genius or a kind of political Gomer Pyle?


    Why yes, thanks.

    Just in the past hour the IMF has thrown a fit---the debt's too damned high.

    Again, by accident, Tsipras might look like the adult while the EU and IMF squabble like children about who has to take their bath first.

     


    Gomer Pyle? Did he have a big bailout package too?

    I'm thinking more George Clooney.

     


    A lot of folks in Greece are likely not picturing Tsipras as a Hellenic George Clooney. More likely for them he is more like a Greek Benedict Arnold.

    Gomer is the sort of well meaning guy for whom every error and naive assumption turns out for the good in the end, to the surprise of all.

    Britain is fighting contributing to an EU emergency fund for Greece, and the NYT reports EU nations that were planning to move to the Euro currency are re-thinking, as most are poorer than Greece and don't want to tapped in on future bailouts.

    So the EU/Euro may be peaking out one way or the other. Maybe France and Germany will be the last 2 left when this is over...hahahaha.


    It's disingenuous for Osborne to be drawing the distinction between EU and the currency countries when what happens in the currency debacle is so determinative in the future of the EU. But let's never miss an opportunity to show the folks at home we're not going to piss our money away on the likes of the lazy Greeks.

    As a practical matter I don't think Britain can stop the stability loan. But they can say they tried mightily hard to stop it.


    The NYT piece is pretty much a non-article. None of those interviewed were planning the Euro within 5 years anyway, and asking them just after the Greek crisis obviously won't change that. The only actual data point was Bulgarian concern that the poorer would pay for the richer, though it's unlikel that in accession that that wouldn't come up and be dealt with - there won't be a Grentrance fee.

    I'm not usually into checking out how big actors' "package" is, but I think the apropos reference here is Chauncy Gardener, not Gomer Pyle, except for his tag-line "surprise, surprise, surprise..."


    Chauncy, yes I get that. Or maybe Clouseau.

    Still, the guy must be packing the personal charm (lost on Merkel) to be able to get the crowd to follow him through these wild swings.


    Lennie Bruce?

    'Greek' 'industrial action' (strikes) next if Tsipras gets the vote thru.

    Taking 'em out - Peter Sellers, from 'All Right Jack'.


    I see the resemblance.

    Or it could be asking for the next bailout after this bailout.


    IMF demands Greece gets debt relief as part of the bail out. 

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/15/business/international/international-monetary-fund-proposed-greek-debt-relief.html?smid=nytnow-share&smprod=nytnow&_r=0

    The aggressive stance sets up a standoff with Germany and other eurozone creditors, which have been reluctant to provide additional debt relief. The I.M.F role is considered crucial for any bailout, not only to provide funding but also to supervise Greece’s compliance with the terms.

    A new rescue program for Greece “would have to meet our criteria,” a senior I.M.F. official told reporters on Tuesday, speaking on the condition of anonymity. “One of those criteria is debt sustainability.”

    Debt relief has been a contentious issue in the negotiations over the Greek bailout.

    I am going to say it again that Christine Lagarda is the best thing to happen to the IMF.  She doesn't want to leave Greece twisting in the wind. IMF is firmly on Greece's side on debt reduction and wants Greece not to have to make payments for 30 years.

    IMF report.

    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/business/IMF-Greece.pdf

    Greece’s public debt has become highly unsustainable. This is due to the easing of policies during the last year, with the recent deterioration in the domestic macroeconomic and financial environment because of the closure of the banking system adding significantly to the adverse dynamics. The financing need through end-2018 is now estimated at Euro 85 billion and debt is expected to peak at close to 200 percent of GDP in the next two years, provided that there is an early agreement on a program. Greece’s debt can now only be made sustainable through debt relief measures that go far beyond what Europe has been willing to consider so far. 

     Read the rest of the report for what IMF proposes. 


    Thanks, trking, appreciate the link.

    The IMF just doesn't get it. The game here is to make the private sector think Greece can grow into its debt in order to attract the banker migrants and their hapless clients, not drive them to the egresses.

    I love it when bureaucratic analysts instruct others on the possibilities of growth when most likely the only thing they have ever grown is their fat rear ends. So what if the projected growth rates are optimistic---is it better to talk down all prospects of innovation and cultural rediscovery?

    If I had my way, I'd move the staff of the IMF to Greece, plus the 24,000 staff at the EU Commission---that would generate some "economic" growth.

    But I do like the image of banker migrants traveling the whole of the former Ottoman Empire, camping out under the stars, huddling in their sleeping bags with beef jerky and laptops, all thoughts of Pluto out of mind, let's dream about yield.  


    Trking, just a quasi memed mini rant. I share your high regard for Lagarda.


    I wouldn't be surprised if they're playing bad cop/good cop. Scaring the shit out of Greece is essential to a drunk hitting rock bottom. Tsipras crawling on his knees is one of the best things that's happened - now that he's stopped egging on the anti-establishment crowds and instead realizing the brick wall is real, he can be worked with, will take his tasks seriously rather than lipgloss. Debt relief can now be appreciated, rather than just be expected from petulant demands.


    I like the drunk analogy.

    I'd like to believe it, but I really don't see how the oligarchs get a haircut except perhaps in the bank restructuring. Certainly the increased taxes won't make a dent---except that perhaps now they will actually have to pay their taxes.

    Oligarchs seem to win in privatization---which I assume will only work if the assets are sufficiently undervalued.


    Tsipras is addressing the Greek Parliament:

    "The old policies are over. The people appreciate the difference between those who fight against unfairness, and those who surrender."


    They do? Who says so HAHAHAHA. Tsipras?

    He fought but then got his ass handed to him and surrendered.

    Surrendering preemptively might have been better for his country. Or having an actual plan to do something else.


    The vote is 229 Nais. 60 odd Oxi.

    So the bailout package has passed. But Tsip has lost a big chunk of his party.

    We will fight them in the traunches, we will fight them in the fields and city squares,.....

    lagarda vous, eu


    Those who doubted the prescience of Messrs Varoufakis &Tsipris should access the heavily memed article at AOL Worldpost by Elias Kukukundis---and I know there are those among us who have described Tsipras as hapless, even using such examples of serendipitous smelling like-a-rose analogies as--for example, Gomer Pyle and Inspector Clouseau. I myself nearly succumbed to their constant meme of Tsipras Ineptitude leads to Greek disaster.

    In fact Varoufakis (and we can assume Tsipras)---who by the way proves that one can exit a virtually unknown career as a Professor at a regional Texas University and become, with no prior experience, a player upon the world stage---he, Varoufakis, had the entire, quite unique scenario gamed out---that is, to be so vociferous and confrontational as to dissolve the entire Greek crisis, finally, into it's real nature---the conflict between France and Germany over who is going to run the Euro Zone. Varoufakis has some kind of something going on upstairs.

    My theme: Lets you and him fight and then give me the fucking money.


    I think you are taking it from your personal perspective. Which is fine.

    Varoufakis likely the same, and he would also love your apparent satisfactions at the disruptions to European unity it all created.

    However, the uncertainties, mental and financial costs, and hopelessness this whole thing thrust onto the people of Greece, from business persons to pensioners, has been enormous, and for what?

    To stoke a conflict on who is going to 'run the Euro Zone'?

    They had half a dozen wars to decide that and no one still knows who runs Europe. It's one reason the US started NATO to create some unity.

    You think the average Greek gives a crap about the politics of it all?  They want jobs, better lives for their kids and true national stability.

    I give credit to Tsipras as I believe he acted in the end to help Greece in the only way he believed still open to him, backing down and taking a lot of shots from his own Party. He bit off more than he could chew, and unfortunately had no better plan as back up.

    The question, is, how is this latest European brouhaha going to work out not only for Greece, but for Europe. Conflict? More unity or more divisiveness?

    And will it make for a better future for the Greeks? As they try to lead their lives, work and raise families? At this point no one knows.


    Thanks for responding, NCD. In all honesty, I think it's a preposterous claim that these two are heads-up gamers who had any such long game in mind.


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