Richard Day's picture

    ME AND MY CAT NAMED DOG

    File:Silberfuchs 06.jpg
                                      A FOX LOOKING FOR A HEN HOUSE

     

     

    I became interested in a long study in domestication of Siberian Silver Foxes initiated by Dr. Dmitri K. Belyaev; Russian Institute of Cytology and Genetics. He began a series of experiments by gathering Silver Foxes from a Siberian wool manufacturer in 1959.

     He died in 1985 but the institute still survives and is currently run by a Dr. Lyumeda Trut.

    I came across several links on line after viewing a couple of documentaries regarding this study on PBS.

    Basically, the institute selected the most human friendly foxes from each generation of fox.

    Artificial selection was at work here. The scientists simply gathered foxes from wool producers. So the initial generation of foxes had already undergone change after some 50 years of captivity at the wool manufacturing plant.

    The experimenters then bred the animals in captivity and kept the most endearing foxes.

    The PBS documentary I am now watching, reports that one percent of the ‘tamest’ foxes were kept and allowed to reproduce. One percent for each generation and the following traits came to the fore, some within a few generations some within scores of generations:

    Floppy ears.

    Shorter tails (due to loss of vertebrae, believe it or not) and a circular shape to those tails.

    Change in color almost immediately.

    Less fear reactions from the survivors.

    Less biting and challenging behavior.

    Change in canine ‘speech’ patterns

    And, as the scientific technology changed over the fifty year experiment, methodology has changed. DNA tests have been made on the subjects.

    And sure enough, there are recognizable genetic changes.

    http://www.hum.utah.edu/~bbenham/2510%20Spring%2009/Behavior%20Genetics/Farm-Fox%20Experiment.pdf

    One change that occurred earliest in the experiment was color. You can just imagine how important color was in the fox fur industry in Siberia.

    I gleaned that the red and the silver coats were of the utmost importance to the furrier.

    Those colors are gone following the first couple generations of artificial or human selection.

    Color is one of the fastest changing traits in nature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymorphism_%28biology%29

    As a child we are taught (evidently not so much in the South) the history of the white moths in England who morphed into black moths as the dirt and soot overtook the urban areas.

    Anti-Darwinians (a/k/a mental midgets) will simply call this type of morphology a ‘population shift’ that has nothing to do with evil-ution.

    Why population shifts should not be seen as part of an evolutionary model is beyond me.

    I have an interest in evolution because I love coming up with evidence at the drop of a hat to counter the silliness of the mental midgets in this country. On Keith O tonight we appear to be facing a repub head of energy in the House who either believes that we are being unfair to BP by overregulation or a mental midget who quotes Genesis as proof that there is no such thing as global warming.

    Yeah, the choice is between a capitalist corporate anti environmental oligarchist or a capitalist corporate anti-environmental oligarchist mental midget.

    The other interest of mine involves the actual changes in the DNA chain that can be measured.

    I mean any gardener can tell you about changes in vegetation caused by the continual care by human hands and the chemicals put into the soil.

    And we were taught as children about the bonuses the farmer may inherit through a process known as crop rotation.

    But from whence do these DNA alterations occur?

    I mean a change in climate might mean that a population of wolves might grow thicker or thinner coats. That might be explained by population shift—inherent DNA—and that the stronger or warmer or cooler survive. The theory of natural selection is easy to understand in this context.

    It might also be explained by simple biological changes that occur in every living creature that present themselves with a change of environs. We sweat more when we are hot. Wolves grow thicker coats during colder times.

    Wolves may become meaner during leaner times; kind of like modern day corporate management.

    So too, ingestion of certain substances may alter one’s DNA strains. My understanding is that certain steroids and hormones might actually alter one’s DNA besides shrinking gonads.

    Again, we are all aware of changes in DNA strains of domesticated animals and plants through a process known as artificial selection. As Genesis 1 states:

    24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
     26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

    And because there are billions of us on this planet, just about everything we do as human beings affects every single piece of flora and fauna in existence.

     

    Therefore, just the hand of a human being (who becomes god in god’s stead) affects the DNA of all of God’s creatures. This is in fact the theory of artificial selection.

    But what exactly are the other types of DNA morphology?  I mean I have discussed artificial selection in the intentional model. We change our soils per tillage and per seed choice and per fertilization and per hydro-enhanced mechanisms.

    What I am saying is that when you are confronted with a mental midget’s concept of the universe you cannot be trapped into simply using natural selection as an all encompassing explanation for evolution.

    Mental midgets will throw out talking points like:

    There has never been on example of natural selection demonstrated in the evolvement of a single organism into another species.

     

    Micro-evolution through changes in bacteria or viruses does not count—for what reason I am not sure.

    There are so many examples of organisms with traits that are non-adaptable. Of course that is why I believe we have so many mental midgets on this planet.

    I do not know about you but my ancestors are not descended from monkeys. I think I will let that statement stand by itself.

    I have gleaned several different processes at work:

    Molecular Evolution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_evolution

    Random Selection.  Also known as Natural Selection. Kind of a ‘shite happens’ approach to the natural universe.

    Sexual Selection.

    Population shifts.

    Lamarkian Evolution. This has not been disproved completely as I was taught as a child.

    Here is a nice paragraph from the National Science Foundation:

    The Evolutionary Processes Cluster supports research on microevolutionary processes and their macroevolutionary consequences. Topics include mutation, gene flow, recombination, natural selection, genetic drift, assortative mating acting within species, speciation, and long-term features of evolution. These investigations attempt to explain causes and consequences of genetically-based change in the properties of groups of organisms (at the population level or higher) over the course of generations as well as large-scale patterns of evolutionary change, phylogeography, origin and maintenance of genetic variation, and molecular signatures of evolution at the population or species level. The cluster seeks to fund projects that are transformative -- that is, those that will change the conceptual bases of evolutionary biology and have broad implications for future research.  Both empirical and theoretical approaches are encouraged. The Cluster is comprised of two programs, Evolutionary Genetics and Evolutionary Ecology (described below); proposals should be submitted to one of these programs.

    http://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_summ.jsp?pims_id=503421

     

    There is more to evolution of species on this planet than ‘shite happens’.

    And then, do not let a mental midget corner you with some specious species argument. What is and what is not a species is not written in stone.

    Jack-asses will, at a much lower rate, copulate and produce more jack-asses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule

    I had been taught that two animals are members of two different species if they can not copulate and produce another animal. That is not necessarily true.

    I have gone on much too long here since I am attempting to limit my posts.

    But this study in domestication of the Siberian Silver Fox is fascinating stuff.

    See also:

    PURCHASE

    http://scienceblogs.com/thoughtfulanimal/2010/06/want_a_domesticated_fox.php

    Applications to human genome projects:

    http://cbsu.tc.cornell.edu/ccgr/behaviour/Index.htm

     

    Oh, and in case you feel that there is really nothing controversial in all of this:

    It was often thought that the feline pet was smarter than its canine counterpart because it needed less attention but researchers have discovered that cat’s brains are smaller because they are less social.

    For the first time scientists have charted the evolutionary history of the brain across different groups of mammals over 60 million years and identified huge variations in how their brains have changed.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/pets/8151924/Dogs-are-smarter-than-cats.html

     

    hahahahahahaah

    Oh I posted a previous version of this at:

     

    http://tpmaholics.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2010-11-13T10%3A54%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=7

     

    Comments


    Oh C, I am always interested in Galapogos. Always.

    Thank you for the link.

    I have to find it again, but there is so much diversity among 'species' who reside within a hundred miles or less of each other all over the world.

    The beaks of these birds, the diversity in beaks at Galapogos is fascinating and there is just an entire world of diversity there, no wonder young Darwin was fascinated.


    I viewed the entire series last night.  Wonderful!  As I recall, Darwin identified 11 different forms of Starlings...Beak structures based on the size and toughness of the seeds they ate.  There are, absolutely, different shapes and sizes of the two giant land tortoise species found on the chain.  Hell...I could rant on and on.  (Six thousand years...My ass!)

    Chuck


    Oh and Chuck I saw this other documentary and about five minutes of it was dedicated to this European squirrel. One 'species' was within twenty miles of another species of squirrel. And the one had it easy with soft acorns. The other needed harder 'nails' and used a rock to eat the fruit of the harder acorn nut.

    The forest 'decided' which squirrel would survive. Amazing really!!!


    Not to beat the subject to death, but as you know, the Galapagos is a favorite breeding\nesting ground for some of the world's rarest sea birds.  One particular species lays 2 eggs -- 5 days apart.  After both eggs hatch, the usually older\healthier bird pushes the younger bird from the nest and though inches away the weaker of the two is allowed to die.  The parent makes no effort to save the weaker off-spring.  How's that for"survival of the fittest?"

    Chuck


    I would say that it sounds like one of my brothers. hahahahah. Of course I was the oldest brother. hahahahahahahahah


    I think it was E. O. Wilson who said that the creator must have been particularly fond of beetles, for there are more species of beetles than any other life form on earth.


    Oh the work of the Lord is indescribable. Personally I liked John.

     

    But that is just me!!!!


    Thanks, I had missed this on PBS. About the mental midgets, if they cannot look at rocks, basic geology, carbon dating, etc. and not agree that the world is more than six thousand years old, there is no hope for them at all. As for the rest of the creationists, I never got what their problem is. So what if God decided to use evolution instead of instant creation to produce the human species--who the hell are we to say what God should do?


    There is a psychological factor to all of this.

    The fundamentalist might say: I believe in a literal interrpretation of the Bible. But none of them, as far as I know ever contended that God stood on the planet Earth and tossed stars  into the sky. It would make no sense. Not that they make much sense anyway.

    The age of the universe represents some thing to them. I really cannot break that code. Evolution is only part of this structure.

    But like you say, why cannot 'evolution' be one of the many tools of the True God?


    Darwin himself in his first book on evolution, left open the question of how life started, from 'On the Origin of Species', at the very end of the book he says:

    There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several
    powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one;
    and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed
    law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful
    and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.

    Having read a lot on evolution, I know no one has ever explained the 'breathing' part, why a scum of amino acids and lipids would harbor a burning desire to come alive, and make more of themselves.


    I know no one has ever explained the 'breathing' part, why a scum of amino acids and lipids would harbor a burning desire to come alive, and make more of themselves.

    That's simple: sex. (Yeah, I know: sex wasn't actually invented until more than a billion years later, but surely they had the foresight to know it was coming, right?)


    Ambitious & licentious scum at that!


    I once asked a "literalist" that since he believed everything in the Bible was the literal truth, which one of the two versions of creation in Genesis did he believe in. (The great PBS series on Genesis). I never got an answer back from him on that question.  


    Well, there is a stock answer: only the first one is meant to be chronological. The other one was just stream-of-consciousness, or something like that.

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/genesis2.html


    A fascinating story, DD.

    I have an additional reason why I find the theory of evolution so compelling: evolutionary programming. Using evolution as an inspiration we've created a dazzling array of metaheuristic search techniques under that sobriquet, including my favorite (for its simplicity): genetic algorithms. Those who liken evolution to random mutations really raise my ire because it proves they're arguing against something they haven't even begun to understand, and I really hate willful ignorance.

    For those who are interested in reconciling a literal reading of Genesis with evolution, I recommend "Genesis and the Big Bang", by Gerald Schroeder. He gets some of the science a little wrong, but his scientific mistakes are relatively minor and don't undermine his arguments. I don't know Hebrew well enough* to analyze his arguments there, though.

    *By "well enough", I mean I know what the letter Aleph looks like, but just because it's used in representations of infinity.


    Well put Atheist. Much better than I put it.

    As our mathematics and computers get better and better, so too will our understanding of the different processes involved in our theory of evolution.

    There is much more in evolution than just randomness as far as I can tell.


    I'm amazed at the controversy about evolution, DD. It's something that is so simple. Here we have Americans who can successfully figure their way through our tax code, but they can't accept something that, on the surface, is far easier. And the proof is everywhere.

    If someone had bothered to look, evolution would have been found way earlier. The Greeks could have figured it out. Ancient Chinese scientists too.  All it took was taking the time to look around closely.

    Luckily, Darwin not only was a good observer, but he knew how to write too.


     Here we have Americans who can successfully figure their way through our tax code…
    "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." ~ Richard Feynman
    "The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax." ~ Albert Einstein
    QED. Nobody can figure their way through our tax code, they can only fake it.

    Luckily, Darwin not only was a good observer, but he knew how to write too.

    Amen to that. Anyone who has not read Origin of Species has been short-changed.


    Yes, Darwin was one hell of a writer to be sure.

    And he was so afraid of his conclusions/findings that he sat on them for decades before publication.

    And the ancient Chinese as well as the Greeks knew damn well what artificial selection was. Dogs and cats and grains were carefully selected by the ancients. They knew there was a process involved in domestication.


    I blame Fox.

    The End.


    hahahahaaha

    FOX has a lot to answer for. hahaha


    Wow! What a beautiful creature. The creatures of earth's wilderness are enough to affirm the existence of God to me - but in one that works in complex methods we barely understand.


    Yeah. That is what I think about it.

    The wonders, the beauty of it all.

    Why do we not all live in awe?


    While straightening up my office today, pawing through piles of books, I found a copy Dr. Rupert Sheldrake's "A New Science of Life: The Hypothesis of Formative Causation." 

    I saved this to read and then forgot about it, like so many strange tomes that come through my used bookstore. On the back cover it says "Upon the English publication of this controversial book in 1981, Nature, one of Britain's leading scientific magazines, called it 'the best candidate for burning there has been for many years.'"

    Which is probably why I saved it. Talk of book-burning usually makes me want to look more closely into whatever ideas some group wants to condemn to the flames.

    The back cover says the hypothesis of formative causation "proposes that the form, development, and behavior of living organisms are shaped and maintained by 'morphogenetic fields.'" It says these fields are "molded by the form and behavior of past organisms of the same species through direct connections across both space and time."

    If not for your post here, the book might have gone back into a pile. Now I think I'll put in on the shelf (to read later, of course, when I find the time).

    What would really be cool, though, would be to find enough space and time to acquire a pet fox. Provided, of course, that the beautiful furry critter wouldn't eat our chickens and ducks.


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds a lot like Lamark.

    I am not saying that girraffes grew longer necks to reach the leaves of the high trees.

    But Lamarkism is not entirely dead as I previously thought. I read a few articles on this new perspective.  And this book sounds cool!!!

    I shall google the author at the least.


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