MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
(1) Merkel's now famous or infamous cell phone has apparently been 'monitored' since 2002, initiated by, I assume, white guys in the Bush administration. No one has asked who authorized that action. It was before she was Chancellor. She apparently was put on the NSA 'list' when she became an important politician in Germany. This would lead one to believe that this could have been a very long list, perhaps 'a routine intelligence' procedure, NSA business as usual, and furthermore, the program involved may date back to well before 2002.
a. The phone 'monitoring', was it just numbers or contacts? As far as we know numbers and contacts may have been it for Merkel. Although we know the Bush administration used the NSA to spy on UN diplomats in the push for the Iraq War in 2003.
As for Merkel, no actual transcriptions of phone calls have been revealed. None have been produced by Snowden or anyone else. If you know of one, please give it.
b. Merkel was unlikely the only politician on the 'list'. This is not just snooping of white females communications by Obama, the black guy, but lots of people, SOP of the NSA. White guys likely started it, FWIW.
c. If the NSA can monitor a cell phone, it's a good bet the Chinese and/or the Russians can too. Maybe the black guy isn't the one to be concerned about if your cell phone is insecure.
d. Merkel could ditch the cell phone, she has a land line phone in her office that is secure, for serious discussions:
Earlier this week Berlin said that Merkel's communications were "absolutely safe," since she was conducting her important "state political" conversations on encrypted fixed-circuit phone lines.
(2) An anonymous source from the NSA said General Alexander 'briefed' Obama on the Merkel phone business in 2010, according to Der Spiegel, and 'Obama knew and approved' spying on Merkel. The anonymous source went on to claim the Berlin intercepts went directly to the White House, although no intercepts, memos or documents have ever been produced of Merkel's cell phone conversations with or without White House names or addresses on them. General Alexander, like General Clapper, are, of course, not always forthright and factual about all the 'secret stuff' they are up to, in 'briefs' or in public testimony.
a. Obama approving Merkel cell phone monitoring was quickly denied by a spokesperson from NSA today.
b. The original Der Spiegel charge is of course, hearsay, a 'source' said Gen. Alexander told Obama....this is not real evidence to doubt a President, it would not be admitted into evidence in court. For anybody.
c. Snowden and/or whoever now possesses the stuff he stole, is releasing these NSA snippets, has not yet released one document showing Obama received actual content of or on Merkel's phone conversations. There is no hard evidence in Snowden's files Obama ever asked for such information, nor evidence any was offered to him, in any of the thousands of files Snowden stole and then gave away to who knows who.
This afternoon the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee said:
Mr. Rogers, Republican of Michigan, said that the National Security Agency’s surveillance program in question — particularly in regards France, but also Germany — had been badly misrepresented in news reports.
What we have here is a long established program of surveillance, and an either out of control NSA and/or an overly zealous NSA gathering far more data, and compromising for more people's privacy than is necessary for anyone's security. As I have said before, the NSA appears to be drowning is a sea of extraneous data, unable to cull out the useful stuff from the chaff. And raising a lot of legitimate privacy concerns to boot. Possibly breaking existing law.
That Obama didn't stop excessive NSA practices set up before he took office on his own is regrettable, but he has had a lot on his plate. And telephone tapping has been around as long as telephones, done by all law enforcement everywhere. Restricting it is not like stopping torture, which is illegal under US and international law. Wiretapping or phone tapping should be done under legal restraints. These should be discussed and legislated by our 500+ members of Congress, and adjudicated by the courts. Which is already occurring in cases like this one reported by the NYT.
Comments
Given current levels of technology, Russia, Chins, Iran, Korea, etc. All have access to my information. I don't want to share my porn with a pervert like that little guy in North Korea.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 10/27/2013 - 7:22pm
Cute, it's not that we'be been opposing excessive surveillance since the Clipper chip - it's that we're racist - leave the half black guy alone!
And Merkel should just stay in the
kitchenoffice if she's worried - I'm sure her travel is friVolous, probably out getting her hair done - take her cell phone away, that fixes it.And Verilli fessed up to secret unauthorized wireless tapping used in court cases after the Snowden leaks and 5 years of denying it - all's forgiven, John-boy, why are these people still complaining? It's days-old news, get over it.
And oF course there's no harmfu l use of eavesdropping - Verilli's advisors and Alexander have given us their word.
Thanks for clarifying for us little people.
by Anonymous pp (not verified) on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 2:12am
Wasn't Verilli the one who ordered a review of the legality of not informing someone that electronic monitoring had been used as part of an investigation?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 8:10am
Yeah, it's never about race. I didn't say it was.
I just said it was started by white guys in 2002, when a white guy was Prez, and now the black guy is taking the blame.
And maybe the 'black man spying on the white woman' sells more Der Spiegels among a certain set or readers...... See below.
I also said you can't trust the Generals, the NSA may be breaking the law, and there are 500 or so Congress critters who could get off their duffs and do something more than play partisan political games.
by NCD on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 11:20am
I'm with PP on this one. I'm quite certain that Merkel would've expressed equal outrage if this had come out in 2007. Obama being black (or half-black, as if either term is well-defined) has nothing to do with it.
by Verified Atheist on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 9:04am
Agree. I am also quite certain Merkel would have been outraged if this came out in 2007.
But a black man spying on a white woman is so s-c-a-r-y!
And I would guess Der Spiegel doesn't mind if their report that 'Obama knew' 'personally approved' spying on Merkel sells newspapers with those who still have that little seed of racism, waiting for nourishment, somewhere below the surface.
by NCD on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 11:17am
This new NYTimes article on this has a really good summary of who said and claimed what and when they did so, what has been denied and what has not, up until yesterday, including all involved media outlets and their credibility issues:
Data Suggests Push to Spy on Merkel Dates to ’02
by Alison Smale, Melissa Eddy and David E. Sanger, October 27/28, 2013
by artappraiser on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 10:43am
Thanks for the link. Can you find a NYT article on the Bush spying on UN dipolomats at the UN in March, 2003, in the push for UN approval for the invasion of Iraq?
I think it was leaked by a British woman working for British intelligence, who was then fired for doing so, and my understanding is the whole thing was hushed up and not covered much in the NYT or major media.
by NCD on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 11:14am
I can't find that the NYT even covered the NSA 2003 UN bugging incident. I found the links below in the Guardian and The Nation. And the Christian Science Monitor discussed it in August, 2013.
Bush using the NSA to gin up the vote in the UN for the Iraq War, the leaker was Katharine Gunn, British Intelligence.
Apparently British Intelligence and US intelligence have been totally linked up since WW2, as are NZ and Australia. Current reports are France and Germany would like the same treatment.
UN NSA spying, Iraq War vote, The Nation on it from this summer, 2013:
The Guardian on NSA UN spying, Iraq, pre-invasion, early March 2003.
Actual memo on it, The Guardian.
One thing pretty certain, the black guy isn't using the NSA to push a UN vote to approve another war or US invasion.
by NCD on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 11:53am
I couldn't find anything until you offered more useful keywords (also, I myself recall more than one story about tapping of U.N. diplomats during the Bush years):
Here you go, a start; I'm gonna paste the whole thing under "fair use" research by you and me:
Now select keywords from that story, and you will no doubt find earlier mentions.
by artappraiser on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 12:21pm
I don't really understand your fixation on this as regards the current story, though.
I think has been unspoken status quo for centuries to expect some attempts at spying whenever you have international meetings and conferences and in diplomatic offices on another country's soil, though everyone plays it that the U.N. and diplomatic residences are supposed to be more holy ground.
But this is different, this is spying on the people and leaders in their own countries from the spyer's country, when they least expect it. It's clear to me that that's the difference the victims are playing the outrage card about--about spying on the every day nuts and bolts business in your own country, not about spying on you at an international exchange of some sort where if you are smart, you already know to try to protect yourself from that.
by artappraiser on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 12:31pm
Part of the problem, I think, is that the rule in spying on other countries was do what ever you fucking can. But back then there were a lot of things you were just unable to do and a lot of the things you could do were just so god awful hard to do that it just wasn't worth it except in the most exigent circumstances. All of a sudden technology made it so much easier to spy that you can do just about anything and everything all the time. The rule has to change.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 11:16pm
The NYT got hacked by the Syrian Electronic Army. The group also attacked an Obama campaign Twitter and Facebook account. Isn't it best for governments to assume that they are going to be hacked?
in the end, more European nations will be added to the group of 5 now under a "no hack" agreement.
Given Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc., how does the average citizen maintain privacy. Corporate interests like Facebook have a direct financial incentive to keep tabs on a significant number of people..
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 11:27pm
I really don't understand why people allow corporations to collect so much data on them. They didn't have to accept it. If enough people had cared the market would have responded. But I can't do anything about what people willingly accept. I can only do things to try to retain as much privacy as possible for myself, for example by using https://duckduckgo.com/ or not having a facebook page.
For some reason it appears as though enough people care about government spying so maybe something can be done to limit it. I would like to limit both corporate and government spying and data collection but if all I can get is limits on government spying, well, I'll take that.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 11:56pm
Interesting and helpful information about how the site does maintain some privacy
http://etherrag.blogspot.jp/2013/07/duck-duck-go-illusion-of-privacy.html
by Resistance on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 4:45am
AA my 'fixation' on the 2003 UN eavesdropping was that:
(1) the NSA eavesdropping of diplomats was a Bush admin. planned dirty trick to game UN approval for the Iraq War, which failed, and Bush went ahead anyway. Gaming the UN system for a permission slip to start an illegal war is not something that the US does all the time. Like monitoring 70 million phone numbers in France or wherever, which seems to be NSA business as usual for a long time.
(2) the US UN spying was reported 1 March, 2003, pre-war, by The Guardian, apparently not any major US media, your NYT article is from 2004 too late. Why?
(3) the spying is referred to as 'NSA spied on.." or 'The US spied on.." while the current Merkel business is essentially, at least by Der Spiegel "Obama spied on...". I find the personalization of responsibility to Obama to be BS, purely to sell papers, quite likely including the scary black man image. I would assume any real data goes to the CIA, the State Department, Homeland Security, the FBI, etc., and the NSA probably doesn't provide a bibliography of where or how they got it.
I was reading Defoe the other day and note 300 years ago, shortly after the development of the printing press, he described newspapers as 'spreading rumors and the inventions of men'. Blaming Obama for 2002 lists, NSA SOP and a memo from 2006 fits that description - rumors and inventions.
by NCD on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 11:35am
Well, I see a situation where if it's a "scary black man" story some people are selling and some others are buying, the Obama administration is not in any rush to disabuse them of it.
But I don't see the governments of Germany, France, Mexico and Brazil as buying the scary black man story.
And as the article I just posted at the end of my news thread points out, Germany is talking about broken trust with Obama, not about never having had any trust with him. And Hollande was ready to go to war with him only a few weeks ago. And Mexico, do I have to say they themselves are "scary people of color" too?
Here's the thing I see with your comparison with Bush surveillance of Security Council Members in the run up to Iraq. It's basically the same thing I said before, but even more pointed. That was surveillance with a goal of whipping and lobbying votes. Now we both object to the goal in this particular case. But can one ever realistically expect to outlaw doing that and have everyone in an international situation follow the rules? When a major vote of major consequence for the world is involved? You expect all parties involved not to try their darnedest to figure out what all countries on the Security Council might be interested in that could possibly change their vote? I just think that's an unrealistic expectation from the current world governance situation.
Again, it's one thing to do it in a world governance situation where sides are trying to gain allies on a particular measure, it's quite another to do it all the time every minute of every day with an ally's activities in their own country just for the heck of it in case it might be useful some day.
Put yourself in the situation about having to have a talk with someone of authority or a partner which you find out has listened to your every phone call and read every email you wrote for a couple of years. What would you have to say to them? Nothing. No need to talk any more unless you are a masochist. They think they have you all figured out and all you would be doing is trying to change their mind about what they think is an irrefutable picture of you. You are in a situation where you have to argue"are you going to believe your lying eyes or what I tell you?" (And eyes do sometimes lie.) This is why broken trust in marriages often leads to divorce.
by artappraiser on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 1:38pm
Spain is joining the public outrage club:
First thought for me is that they, like Germany and France, have always maintained a close and helpful relationship with us on the anti-terrorism intel front.
by artappraiser on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 11:13am
Two things at Moon of Alabama that have bearing here. Why common sense says Obama knew or should have known that Merkel was being surveilled and [maybe] why she is making a big deal out of it.
http://www.moonofalabama.org/
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 12:26pm
More proof; the Worlds powerful leaders are full of deception?
The Truth sets us free and deception enslaves us.
by Resistance on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 4:48am
There is a definitive difference in the tone taken by officials in the Obama administration and that taken under GW during hearing of intelligence. Bush, for example, did not back down on water- boarding. Obama gets critiqued for apologizing to Merkel.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 12:27pm
Ok, I just looked at the dead tree edition of today's Wall Street Journal and it is very clear in the big headline on the front page what the Obama administration's plan is to deal with all of this, the talking points are very clear:
That's by Siobhan Gorman and Adam Entous. When I went to Google News to paste that headline in to get a link to the online version of WSJ, instead I got 4,140 results at many media outlets.
So there you have it, them's the talking points being rapidly spread, and that's what they are going to do about the problem of it affecting Obama's ability to deal with these leaders.
by artappraiser on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 12:41pm
Obama must be fuming; that they couldn't get this Snowden
traitorembarrassment, arrested.by Resistance on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 11:58pm
Interesting line quoted by Russel Brand the other day - "the right looks for converts, the left looks for traitors". Strangely enough you'd think Snowden's politics are not too far off of much of the left's.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 5:53am
Snowden may be more Libertarian than left. There are probably many sysadmins of similar political persuasion.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 9:18am
That quote used by Brand [I like the guy, what I have seen] is too multi-meaninged to stand alone as an accurate observation outside of a context which helps identify who is the convert, who is charged as traitor, and how each person as well as both words are identified and defined. This epilogue to Scahill’s bestselling book, Dirty Wars: The World Is a Battlefield, is posted today at TomDispatch.com. I read it shortly before reading your comment. With that in mind, Brand's quote suggests to me that the part of the Left who still support Obama uncritically, in affect, are converts to one set of ideas while being traitors [not the best word, too strong and too loaded, but it is all metaphorical] to another set. Thinking of The Bill of Rights as an example. When I say 'uncritically in affect" I mean that mild criticism here and there of actions and policies way beyond the pale, IMO, but still voting for him means that the criticism is empty and of no affect. That idea is behind Brand's stand to not vote for anyone who does not actually stand for his, Brand's, ideals. Brand says he will not participate in a system which glorifies and promotes evil just because there is a greater evil.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 11:06am
I think it is rational to cast a vote against a greater evil. Vote against the folks who oppose a woman's right to choose. Vote against the person voting to cut food stamps. Vote against the legislators trying to suppress your vote. I think that voting is the rational thing to do.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 11:32am
We would also likely still have Americans being blown up in Iraq as McCain would not have pulled them all out, and we very likely would be in over our heads in Syria.
Who said, 'you can't always get what you want'?
by NCD on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 11:34am
Well, yeah. When it came right down to it immediately before the election I agreed that if my vote mattered that I would cast it for Obama. Correction; I would have cast it against McCain.
Maybe McCain would have allowed for U.S.soldiers to be held accountable for crimes before Iraqi courts, but I doubt it. Likely though, he would have tried hard to find a way to disregard Bush's agreement and stay. Just like Obama tried hard to do.
You can give Obama credit for avoiding direct and aboveboard war in Syria if you so choose but I, and I believe most of the world, see it differently.
Change for the better aint going to be easy if it happens at all, but you know how doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is correctly described.
Another essay bearing on my position and which I think has value and which deals with how one person sees that things finally do change is here.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Our-Invisible-Revolution-by-Chris-Hedge...
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 12:59pm
Think you're reading his quote too narrowly or context-wise. I think it's more about the left cutting itself apart by figuring out who's not going along with the right line on global warming, abortion, drones, gay rights, racial profiling, and then ostracizing & dismissing them. Thus it's hard to achieve a Unity Pony. Whereas conservatives don't seem bothered with the internal contradictions of what they do - they can preach fiscal austerity and vote for a budget-busting defense bill and doesn't make them spill their coffee. They rally around their own, and then attack liberals for doing or professing the exact same thing, without batting an eyelash. I think the quote is ancient, so isn't about Obama or any other particular figure.
by Anonymous pp (not verified) on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 12:33pm
Right, since I think it could be seen in many different ways depending on context I gave it one of my own, mostly just to tie it to an article I wanted to offer.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 1:13pm
;-)
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 6:19am
I'm not much interested in theoretical or philosophical discussions when it comes to politics. There I am totally pragmatic. I can see no benefit to be gained in the real world by not voting. If fact it would likely make things marginally worse.The only "benefit" is personal, the pride gained from holding to some sort of moral purity.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 3:44pm
Are you trying to tell us that you are a wee bit slow in understanding when it comes to the important questions of our day, does being pragmatic mean voting straight Democrat? It seems to me that those who desperately cling to our corrupt system and enable that system by giving their consent are claiming some kind of purity by repeating myths learned as children in grade school civics class.
by Peter (not verified) on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 9:22pm
When people cast a vote for the most rational choice, or the lesser of two evils, one is taking a moral stand. If the alternative is to suggest revolution, those proposing the removal of our current legislators should have a viable plan. What if the people who cast votes reject the revolution being proposed? Will the voters be suppressed by the revolutionaries violently. How is exchanging a vote for blind obedience to an unstated "revolutionary" goal" the better option.
people are free not to vote. The problem is that there are people who want to keep others from voting. Those people cannot win the political debate in the public square.So they use oppression. How is a "revolution that considers voters stupid the gold standard.
In the end people would be fight oppression by the revolution.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 11:35pm
I think I understand the question and your view on it pretty well since I've had this dialog dozens of times with anarchists and disaffected liberals on Rainbow discussion sites.
In the end it always comes down to this. Exactly what is the real world result when you and your pals stop voting? I've yet to see any answer to that question.
You work for "the man." You get paid with paper with pictures of "the man" on them. You take the man's money and buy stuff from "the man's" stores. You pay taxes to "the man." When you're doing all that for "the man" why should "the man" care that you didn't vote?
You don't vote, shrug whatever. Funny thing is you actually think its a useful way to fight "the man." Not much more to say until you come up with a good answer to: Don't vote and then, what happens?
by ocean-kat on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 12:57am
I'm not sure you understand at all OK and your Hipster lingo is a little outdated and quite trite. Not voting is a defensive or apathetic choice , that's why you and others use that term while Boycotting elections is an aggressive proactive tactic to directly attack the system and we can use the latent power of the apathetic and they won't even care. Your demand for answers about results before any change is attempted is typical status quo thinking, you fear change because it requires creativity and you know that neither Liberals or Conservatives are capable or willing to think outside their gatekeepers narrow limits. We know what is coming if we continue on our present course, it is clearer every day, wishful thinking will not change anything.
by Peter (not verified) on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 9:56pm
Your demand for answers about results before any change is attempted is typical status quo thinking, you fear change because it requires creativity and you know that neither Liberals or Conservatives are capable or willing to think outside their gatekeepers narrow limits
If you are not planning change through the ballot, how are you going to effect the change? Who is going to lead the charge? We saw the leaderless, non ballot oriented Occupy Wall Street crash and burn. Those of us supporting the ballot have seen nothing to fear so far because there is no opposing plan.
People who don't think voting matters will stay home. They may also work to try to convince others not to vote. Those of us who feel that voting is important will vote and encourage others to vote. We will also point out how the vote sit- out in 2010. Helped to usher in the Tea Party. We will also mention that Democrats are likely to bring in judges that have a more enlightened POV then Republican judges. I think that Sotomayor and Kagan have cast important votes that go counter to Republican appointees like the openly racist Scalia and the Federalist Society's Alito. I see a clear difference.
If there is no alternative political plan, just rhetoric, don't criticize those who make the rational choose to choose the best political alternative by using the vote..
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 11:03pm
What happened in 2010 is very different than what Peter is suggesting. Those who sat out the election were disappointed and disillusioned, imo. A state of mind I understand well since I've nearly succumbed to it myself at times. It wasn't a proactive tactic to attack the system and it wasn't people like Peter who convinced them not to vote.
When I see Peter complain that he's asked for "results before any change is attempted" I wonder if he's ever worked with any group of people attempting to achieve anything. When people are brainstorming ideas to push for some change the first question asked of each and every idea is, "What would that accomplish?" As I suspect you know since you've probably been involved in agitating for change too.
I imagine Peter sitting with MLK or any anti-war group discussing options and saying, "Let's just not vote. Its an aggressive proactive tactic to directly attack the system!" If the people are kind enough to not laugh him out of the meeting the first question they'd ask is, "What would be the real world result of not voting? What would it accomplish?"
If he doesn't have a good answer to that question he doesn't have a good tactic.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 10/31/2013 - 3:51am
However dated, its the same line I've been hearing for the last 40 years from the anarchist crowd. You can disregard it because its just not cool enough for you but you can't come up with a good response.
You assume I'm not ready for change because I see not voting as a useless tactic. I'm willing to bet I've worked harder for change than you have. Might be wrong, I don't know you but unless you're an unemployed full time activist I'll bet I've worked harder and am still working harder.
I've spent years working for the Green party. Protested at nuclear power plants and on other environmental issues. I've been to the annual School of the Americas protest several times. When I lived in Gainesville I was at the protests against Phelps. Now I'm in Arizona near the Mexican border and I'm active in local border issues and work with No More Deaths and the Samaritans.
Its in my blood, part of my upbringing. When I was a child my father took me with him once when he picketed the Bethlehem Steel. My dad's a conservative dem and he doesn't understand my far left liberalism but he was a union man through and through and he wanted me to understand what it meant to strike against the company for your rights.
I'm angry and frustrated too at the pace of change and at the loses we've taken. There has been times when I wanted to give up the fight and even stop voting. Not because I saw it as a winning tactic but because its seemed useless. If you said voting was a waste of time and useless I'd disagree, but I'd understand.
But that's not the discussion we're having. You claim that not voting is a significant tactic for change and I find that hysterically funny. As VerifiedAtheist quite ably posted every tactic, even one as nearly useless as writing in Elmer Fudd, would have a greater effect that not voting.
You see "an aggressive proactive tactic to directly attack the system." I see a worthless tactic that simply gives politicians the ability to ignore you and your views. As Hillary said in the primary it takes both the activists like MLK and the government to make change.
So I'll ask again. What real world result do you expect to see when you and your pals stop voting? The real world result I expect to see from not voting is, nothing, absolutely zero effect, or perhaps, letting the greater of two evils win.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 10/31/2013 - 12:18am
To reiterate from my view, I think 1) non-voting can be a strategic "best of 2 evils" rational choice - supporting either is worse than the slight trend of less support, 2) write-in or non-voting are both pretty meaningless unless you a) advertise what you're doing and b) make it clear what's needed to win your participation, 3) the majority of voting is based on pretty limited information still and a handful of what should be irrelevant. Nevertheless, 4) the system as-is is getting so gamed that I'm more and more in support of just walking away from it rather than any modest participation, though obviously more activist participation in a variety of ways (including bartering your vote to good effect) is the most admirable. I'm out.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Thu, 10/31/2013 - 6:26am
In terms of game theory, the option of not voting has a rational, pragmatic strategy, especially in a system with 2 real choices. It may not be a great choice - like bluffing with a pair of 3's.
But typically the politicians are trying to game the system as well - give just enough satisfaction so a certain clique has to vote for them, but not enough satisfaction as to alienate other opposing cliques.
We've seen elections where low voter turnout lessens the authority & mandate of the winner - which might be the best outcome for someone who favors little change & doesn't want the winner to be effective.
In some systems, lack of enough votes requires a new election.
Now the act of not voting is probably more effective if it's active - if the candidates know you're not voting & why - shout it loud. (even though a million protesters over Iraq didn't manage to get much news coverage vs. beltway neocons). But many people do these silent protests, such as not frequenting a particular restaurant chain, etc., often for peculiar reasons. (one woman told me she doesn't buy Vietnamese because of Nike, and then pores over a batch of Chinese goods as if worker conditions are better there...)
There is a more philosophical view that participating in the electoral process as is only validates it, but then I'd also expect that non-participation would require some energy building up an alternative power structure or way to dampen the strength of those who do win elections and their corporate supporters. Maybe putting all your energy into shaming and suing corporates, calling out malfeasance, tax evasion absurdities, etc. might be much more effective than praying a vote will change the steady consolidation of power and expansion of surveillance. Of course you might vote and do that as well, but most people have limited actual involvement, and frequently that vote is the only really concrete action with countable results.
I'm reluctant to criticize the non-voting crowd too much. Mass turnout in 2008 didn't seem to change much the actual results, aside from pushing through this specific health care package. There has been a bit of shift from Blue Dog dems, though it's funny that some who are dogmatic about voting are also dogmatic about not primarying unwanted incumbents or trying to satisfy your own agenda by voting for candidates that fit your wishes - i.e. those damn purity voters.
Anyway, my 2 cents.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 6:38am
Could you give an example where not voting resulted in a result that would be seen as better?
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 6:59am
In 2010, Democrats were encouraged to sit it out to punish the weak-kneed Democrats. One argument was that this ushered in the Tea Party who rule with a heavy hand. Tea Party legislators proceeded to gerrymander districts.
In 2022. Democrats cast more votes than a Republicans in several states, but still could not win House seats because of gerrymandering. Sitting out a vote hurt Democrats enough that it resulted in districts changes that blunted higher voter turn out.
Projections for 2014 suggest that Democrats could gain House seats and hold on to the Senate despite gerrymandering. Does game theory suggest that the best option given the behavior we have seen from the Tea Party is for Democrats to sit out the election to again punish the Democrats again?
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 8:34am
Yes, some countries require 50% of voters to vote or they throw out the election, so 2 uninspiring candidates go to the showers.
If candidates only campaign in tight, contested regions, my not voting in a runaway district increases the chance of a tight election & the chance they'll have to come discuss issues with me next election instead of pandering to a typical Iowa farmer or Florida immigrants - Ohio hasn't always been a contested state.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 9:14am
An interesting point, but just to be clear, that's true only if the runaway district is runaway in the direction you would vote. Otherwise, if your goal is to increase the chance of a tight election you should fight that much harder to get lazy people who share your opinions to vote. Furthermore, this same goal can be achieved with greater effect by voting for a third party or write-in candidate. That helps to both narrow the margin and to send a message other than "I'm lazy". (Note: I'm not attacking you personally, as I'm fairly certain you've made it clear that you do vote.)
The other wrinkle in this thought process is gerrymandering, which is often how districts come to be runaway districts. And, of course, for the U.S. Senate and for the President, the level of analysis would be not your district but your state.
by Verified Atheist on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 9:37am
I don't vote because I don't live there and where I would vote it wouldn't add up to a hill of beans in this crazy electorate.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 10:12am
In the case of Clinton, Bush and Perot, should Perot have been kicked off the ballot during the second election?
Should Ralph Nader have been forced off the ballot to allow GW and Gore to go head to head?
We are talking about elections here in the United States. Can you cite a case where not voting got a favorable outcome, not theory, but a real world example?
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 10:52am
There are countless cases where 2 jackasses are running with no real 3rd option. Even if can't force a new election, not voting allows one to express disgust, a valid political sentiment.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 11:29am
Voting for a write-in candidate, even (or especially?) if it's Elmer Fudd, is more likely to express disgust than not voting. The usual attribution to non-voting is laziness, not disgust.
by Verified Atheist on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 12:19pm
Voting is the religion of the masses. Going to the polls once every 2 or 4 years is typically lazier than the obligatory Easter Sunday attendance, with half the voters making up their minds with the October debates, not policy papers or deep attention to issues. Meanwhile all those hopeful votes for Obama got us more attacks on whistle blowers, exactly the same policy in our Iraq & Afghanistan wars, bailout of banks that got us into the mess, etc. - the well-greased money train continues. But "Get Out the Vote" and we can reverse the ruin, the hopeful prognosis goes. I'm leaning more to the analogy of a drunk hitting bottom and giving up all hope, then finding a new pattern or strategy that works. Look at Nate Silver's work, ad that's how a politician looks at you.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Thu, 10/31/2013 - 6:13am
Once again, I will ask if you have a real world US example of where not voting resulted in an improved situation. Show a Presidential or Congressional election in recent history where people said not voting improved their status.
The vote sit-out in 2010 can be shown to have been detrimental. The result was Union busting in Wisconsin, special masters in Michigan, vaginal probe bills in Virginia, nationwide assaults on centers providing health care to women and nationwide attempts to suppress the votes of minorities and single women.
I have seen bad outcomes when people did not vote. Show me examples benefits of not voting.Please provide more than theory. Show cases where voters benefited when they did not vote. Given the acts of the Tea Party that was ushered in with the aid of voters staying at home, I find voting the morally superior act. You select the most rational option.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 10/31/2013 - 8:12am
This entire sub-thread began with a mention of Russel Brand and his advocacy of not voting at all, of not participating in a way that he sees as legitimizing a corrupt system. In the same couple of comments about Brand I made an assertion which could be, should be, seen as a completely different tactic, and that is the legitimacy of refusing to vote for the lesser of two evils. [Of course what we see as such a significant evil that it is impossible to support even in hopes of protecting something else will still be up for debate. Some people see abortion in that light] Refusing to vote for the lesser evil in the Presidential race, for instance, or more importantly the primary, is only a refusal to vote if you restrict your possible choices to the two major candidates.
If you ask your question of an example of that tactic working, as opposed to the tactic of not voting at all, then the answer is obvious and you refer to it yourself in your list of the recent achievements and the feared possible future achievements of the Republicans. Those accomplishments are, in actuality, mostly accomplishments of the Tea Party. How have they been so successful in pushing government in their desired direction? By refusing to vote for what they see as the lesser evil in the guise of a moderate Republican. They took the chance of losing a few elections, which they did, and in the process put the rest of the Republican politicians in fear of losing their election. The Tea Party has been very successful in pushing their agenda by using that tactic.
One small thing I do outside of what I see as the pointless act of voting for either Presidential candidate in my deep red state is to divert my previous small political contributions to the support of left leaning news sights and pundits which spread what I consider to be better analysis of the ongoing situations in the world and who cast the blame for wrongdoing where they see it to lie even if it lies at the feet of a Democrat.
Instilling certain underlying thoughts into the minds of the populace which then play on their view of events seems of obvious importance if you think about it. I believe you would agree that, even though it took a long time to have a major affect in racial relations in our country, that the inclusion in our founding documents of the truth that "All Men Are Created Equal", and the presentation of that simple truth to all our children, helped greatly to eventually make some viewpoints impossible to maintain and then had the same affect on policies and laws.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 10/31/2013 - 10:09am
Excuse me, but the Tea Party gained seats by getting elected. The Tea Party did not go camping like Occupy Wall Street, they found candidates and ran them for office. They energized their base to vote. When you say that they risked losing elections, that obviously means they were running people for office, but willing to take a loss. Arguing to primary someone is not staying at home.
You may feel that your vote in a Red State doesn't matter, I don't know your specific situation. I do know that around college campuses in Southern states there are often Liberal pockets that can elect people to city councils, school boards and even Congress. In North Carolina we see people actively struggling against an oppressive Republican legislature. Tell those people that fighting to vote is not the honorable thing to do. Tell them that their votes don't matter
Wingnut Tim Griffin is not going to run for re-election in the Red State of Arkansas. Griffin's seat was previously held by the more Progressive Vic Synder. Tell Arkansas Democrats not to try to prevent another wingnut from getting elected.
Tell Wendy Davis and her supporters in Texas to just give in to the suppression of women's rights. Tell the same thing to the the women in Virginia who object to vaginal probes. Tell those in cities ruled by a special master in Michigan that they should not encourage people to vote to purge a tyrannical Republican Governor and legislature.
Voting is an honorable act of defiance!
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 10/31/2013 - 11:07am
It can be but it can also be an act of following the herd and if you are in a herd of lemmings you best have a parachute. Try to get this straight. I did not, I do not, say that you or anyone else should not vote. One more time: I did not, I do not, say that you or anyone else should not vote.
What I suggested is the legitimacy and the pragmatism demonstrated by the results of the Tea Party of not voting for the lesser of two evils if you want the evil corrected. I'll quote myself from directly above where you fail to comprehend, or simply choose to ignore, a simple sentence.
" ... I made an assertion which could be, should be, seen as a completely different tactic, [than not voting at all] and that is the legitimacy of refusing to vote for the lesser of two evils".
I also think even a casual reading of my comment should make clear that I was not attributing the success of the Tea Party to their not voting at all but instead to their tactic of not voting with the herd for what they saw as the lesser evil, but rather voting positively for someone who shared their ideology even if that risked losing to a Democrat.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 10/31/2013 - 12:36pm
I see the Tea a Party as willing to follow the herd. The Tea Party went along with McCain and Romney placated by the presence of Palin and Ryan, respectively. The Tea Party followed the herd. The Tea Party compromised. They are now willing to eat the own with Ted Cruz and Bob Lee directly threatening RINO candidates.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 10/31/2013 - 2:40pm
FreedomWorks, the large Tea Party organization, circled the wagons for Romney. It was like Ralph Nader calling for Democrats to circle the wagons for Obama
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 10/31/2013 - 3:36pm
I'm not at all reluctant to criticize the non-voting (U.S.) crowd. All of their excuses are basically a cover for laziness. You want to express dissatisfaction with the two choices you see offered? Here are possible solutions (some of which are not disjoint), approximately ranked from hardest to easiest:
Personally, I'm not an advocate for those last two solutions, but at least they achieve something. I definitely respect those who do opt to vote for someone other than the top two leading candidates. But refusing to vote on the principal that it will send a message? The only message it sends is that about half the population is too lazy to vote, even in the general election that happens once very four years.
by Verified Atheist on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 8:39am
Rough equivalence in effort might be nice - voting can be quite lazy, and thoughtful non-voting might be more effort. Running for office yourself is a very different level of effort and most people aren't effective candidates- and "help your favorite candidate with your money" doesn't make much difference if the opponent's backed by the Koch Brothers - so not only does an unconvinced voter have to support the political spectrum, they have to help the out-of-control finance system balloon more? Writing in a candidate if not organized is less noticeable than farting in stockyard.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 9:06am
I dealt with the "rough equivalence in effort" by approximate sorting from hardest to easiest, as was mentioned in the previous comment. You'll also note that my comment about helping your favorite candidate wasn't limited to money. I was just trying to point out that there are numerous alternatives to merely voting for the lesser of two evils or choosing not to vote.
True, but yet it is more noticeable than any "thoughtful non-voting" that happens in the U.S.
by Verified Atheist on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 9:28am
Deciding to vote pragmatically is an act of making a philosophical choice just as much as is deciding not to vote for the lesser of two evils. I would also guess that any thought-out philosophy involves some theorizing.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 8:38am
This will be interesting. WSJ is reporting that the phone monitoring data from Spain and France were shared with the NSA by ......Spain and France. We will see if this is verified.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 2:50pm
If the NSA had access to phone records of foreign citizens, could they do this without the cooperation of foreign phone companies?
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 10/30/2013 - 9:08am
I 'd like to make a distinction that most people here are missing. There is a large growing demographic of non-voters who could vote but don't for various reasons, they represent about 40-50% of the electorate. They are looked down upon by many voters for not supporting our corrupt system and playing the Party Game. Their sheer numbers make them an untapped power bloc even though they may not know it. There is another growing group of "voters" who have worked within the system most or all their life who are looking for ways to exploit this " non -voter" power to destroy, not reform, our Ruling Class and the corrupt system it depends on. This is the Boycott Movement which IMHO is offering the only viable method for a frontal assault on the Ruling Class. Democracy only works when people believe they have an honest, fair system and we have neither. Our Ruling Class represent not the people but the powerful and as long as we allow this to exist we are complicit in their agenda.
by Peter (not verified) on Fri, 11/01/2013 - 1:08pm
phase 1: don't vote
phase 2: ?
phase 3: Our ruling class and the corrupt system it depends on is destroyed
Why would not voting result in our ruling class and the corrupt system it depends on being destroyed? How would that happen? Seems like something is missing.
Here's my analysis.
phase 1: don't vote
phase 2: our ruling class and the corrupt system it depends on decides you're lazy and apathetic and ignores your ideas, thoughts, and views. The corrupt system keeps rolling along.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 11/01/2013 - 3:03pm
Boom, exactly.
by tmccarthy0 on Fri, 11/01/2013 - 3:14pm
You do understand that our Ruling Class is empowered to rule over us by the consent we give them by voting in elections? If we withhold that consent they may do as you predict but they would not have a legal mandate to exercise power under the constitution. I don't know what level of non-compliance with voting would trigger this crisis, that is a legal question but if less than 30% of possible voters participate it will be difficult for them to claim the "consent of the governed". The reason the PTD spend billions on elections is to ensure that enough people vote to maintain the illusion of democracy. The People cannot compete with this money directly but we can circumvent its power by refusing to be manipulated into supporting the system that renders us powerless. There are number of views about what could happen after we destroy this system varying from the utopian to the other extremes but the future must be created and it will require much more involvement by people than just voting. Yes there will be voting in a new system and with real choices many more people would vote.
by Peter (not verified) on Sat, 11/02/2013 - 1:21pm
No, its not a legal question. "Consent of the governed" is just flowery rhetoric like most of the Declaration of Independence. Its purpose is to move people emotionally. It has no legal standing.
The country functioned just fine for over 150 years when only a fraction of the people voted. Half the population, women, couldn't vote. Minorities couldn't vote. Not even all white males could vote since in many cases you had to own property or pay taxes to vote. Over half of the white men could not vote. Less than 30% of the adult population could vote and not all of them did back when the phrase "consent of the governed" was invented. If you were ever able to get the votes in a presidential election below 30%, which you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of doing, it would still have no effect.
It would have no effect because you would still be supporting the government and the "corrupt" system in other significant ways. As long as you continue to be a cog in the system's machine you are giving your consent whether you vote or not. Keep working, buying stuff, and paying taxes and no one in power cares if you don't vote. In fact they prefer it that way.
There are many ways to change the system, activism, protests, etc. many that might be more powerful than just voting. But all of them would be more successful if you also voted.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 11/02/2013 - 3:05pm
You do understand that people look to activism and demonstrations because our political system doesn't respond to or represent them no matter how many may vote. Even these alternate means of demanding attention have been reduced to mere pressure releases while they are either ignored, co-opted or met with violent suppression. Many people seem to still believe that by playing by the rules, dictated by the powerful, the PTB will surrender their control and allow people to rule themselves. Our rulers will never give up their power, it will have to be taken from them and to avoid the widespread violence that revolutions can bring we need to seek creative ways to dismember their power structures. No one has yet offered a better idea of how to begin this process and relying on the failed, defensive tools of the past dooms us to more failure.
by Peter (not verified) on Sun, 11/03/2013 - 11:36am
Perhaps not, but you've managed to offer a worse way — not voting. Not voting does absolutely nothing to take power away or "to avoid the widespread violence that revolutions can bring". Not voting is not "creative". As ocean-kat has pointed out, not voting has been going on since well before you were born. Voting might carry little influence, and voting for a third party or write-in candidate might carry less, but not voting carries the least influence of all.
by Verified Atheist on Sun, 11/03/2013 - 11:56am
Voting has been going on since well before I was born, and I've never seen Democratic candidates as resistant to progressive ideas or even the idea that activists should push their own issues. Bucking the democratic leadership by fielding your own primary candidate? Blasphemy.
I wouldn't be bragging too much about the benefits of voting - unless of course you're happy with the direction government is taking us.
by Anonymous pp (not verified) on Sun, 11/03/2013 - 1:55pm
Those in favor of voting do see reasons given the concrete evidence of vote suppression, abuse of women's rights, cutting of programs like food stamps, etc by the GOP. People will turn up at the polls in 2014 to prevent more wingnuts from getting elected. These issues, including failing to act on immigration issues may not be of importance to you, but they are to others.
One on has presented evidence where failing to vote resulted in a positive outcome. If the Democrat in Virginia beats the wingnut candidate for Governor, peoplewill see that as a positive outcome. Staying at home and letting the wingnut win to demonstrate disgust would be viewed as a negative outcome.
At the end of the dy e have a proposal not to vote as a means of showing disgust. We are not shown where the tactic has worked successfully in the US. The response to questions about not voting has been "Trust us, we think it will work....eventually". We are also tol that third party canidates are being suppressed by Democrats, but we are not told who these viable third party candidates might be. A vaporware voting sit-out campaign along with imaginary third party candidates from people who don't vote.
by AnonymousRm (not verified) on Sun, 11/03/2013 - 2:23pm
Vote suppression and gerrymandering are 2 efforts to make sure your vote is useless. If candidates ignore your views unless you're in a swing state/tight district/needed demographic group, your vote is pretty useless as well. That doesn't mean fighting for voting rights is useless, but the benefits of voting have been weakened.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Mon, 11/04/2013 - 12:37am
If your vote were useless, the Republicans would not be expending the effort to suppress it. Voting in different legislators and judges opens an opportunity to change the restrictions. Change can occur in North Carolina if voters turn out in 2014. There is no rationale for not voting given the disastrous effects we have seen with a GOP Governor and legislatures.
At a grass roots level, school board elections and elections for judges, etc have impact. Just as North Carolina can be changed, so can Texas. Wendy Davis may not win in Texas, but a good turn out May wind up electing fewer Texas wingnuts.
if you stay home, the GOP can remain entrenched.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/04/2013 - 6:51am
The benefits of voting are absolutely clear given the direction government is taking us. Women are losing the right to choose, unions are losing power with right to work laws etc, there's more millionaires and billionaires funding republican candidates due to citizens united, the supreme court is increasingly conservative. Republicans in the house are so scared of the vote they shutdown the government and nearly defaulted on the debt even though they knew it was stupid and self destructive.
The direction of government doesn't show voting is useless. It just shows what happens when my side loses the vote.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 11/03/2013 - 3:56pm
Can you point out where I was bragging about the benefits of voting? All I'm claiming is that voting is better than not voting, which is an incredibly low bar. Claiming to be smarter than Stephen Hawking would be bragging, claiming to be smarter than Bush would not be.
(Also, what Rm said about Virginia. I'm going to do as much as I can to make sure that all of my friends and neighbors get out to vote Tuesday, as we absolutely cannot afford to have Cuccinelli as Governor.)
by Verified Atheist on Sun, 11/03/2013 - 3:42pm
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Mon, 11/04/2013 - 12:31am
The problem you're facing isn't that the government doesn't respond to the vote. It does and there is plenty of historical evidence of it. The tea party demonstrates one example of how to get the government to respond. The problem you're facing is you're losing, so am I, though I think we disagree on what would constitute winning.
You're searching for an answer to this question: How can I win when I keep losing the vote? You think the answer is, stop voting. Unfortunately that answer will just cause you to lose faster.
You can engage in an exercise in futility, don't vote, and pretend you're engaged in a proactive assault on the government. Or you can do the hard work of the activist, demonstrations, protests, outreach, education, until you convince enough people to win the vote.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 11/03/2013 - 3:51pm
There is an assumption that non voters are a homogeneous group who are willing to rise up against the oppressors, in your view, rather than people with a variety of political beliefs who find excuses not to vote. During each Presidential Election, undecided voters are brought into the discussion. It is amazing how often they are shown to simply not being aware of what the facts are in the differences between the candidates on a given issue.
Getting more people to vote is a worthy goal. It does not mean that these voters will fall into line with a political goal. It doesn't not mean that these voters are in lockstep with one political goal over another.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 11/01/2013 - 2:53pm
For those who consider voting unimportant, the Republicans obviously disagree.Republicans fear the votes of their opponents. The Federalist Society members on the Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act. Once Republican Governors and legislators were free to express their racism, they rushed to pass legislation that would make voting more difficult for minorities.
Republicans hope that minority voters stay home. Not voting is an act of cowardice.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:27pm