MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Nikki Haley was hailed as one of the adults in the room when she joined the Trump administration. She went to disappoint expectations by becoming another Trump toadie.
I’d thought Haley was better than that. I was wrong. She was one of the heroes in my 2016 book, Too Dumb to Fail: How the GOP Went from the Party of Reagan to the Party of Trump. Even after accepting a job in the Trump administration as ambassador to the United Nations, I hoped Haley could walk the tightrope of maintaining her dignity and reputation as a serious conservative while remaining relevant in a party that has become dramatically more populist and nationalistic in the Trump era.
Although she pulled it off longer than almost anyone else, she’s fallen off. Since going to work for Trump, she has gushed about Turning Point USA's Charlie Kirk, said she is "proud" of Diamond and Silk, and called Jared Kushner a "hidden genius." Weak.
It’s really hard to take Haley seriously now, as she praises Trump in her book while taking a few cautious shots at specific actions. You can’t cut her much slack, because—unlike some Trump sycophants—it’s clear that Haley knows better, yet is bowing to Trumpism to advance her political career.
Here is Haley in 2005, telling us why the flag had to come down
Haley said national conversation about being viewed differently because of your ethnicity forced her to reflect on here days growing up as a minority in a small town in South Carolina.
One day her father drove to Columbia to buy produce at a fruit stand when two police officers were called to the stand to keep their eyes on him. The officers just stood at the register until Haley's father made his purchase.
"I remember how bad that felt. And my dad went to the register, shook their hands, said thank you, paid for his things and not a word was said going home. I knew what had just happened," Haley said. "That produce stand is still there and every time I drive by it, I still feel that pain. I realized that that Confederate Flag was the same pain that so many people were feeling."
The future generation
Haley said the importance of teaching the next generation about how to treat people was a major motivator of her decision.
"The biggest reason I asked for that flag to come down was I couldn't look my children in the face and justify it staying there," she said.
Haley said racism is a reality that parents can't afford to ignore and must be proactive in addressing with their children.
"You're not born with hate, you're taught hate," she said. "Parents need to be very conscious of the fact that that flag hurts people and they need to talk to their kids about it."
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/politics/nikki-haley-confederate-flag-removal/index.html
Haley's status was boosted by a media that claimed she was a hero in the removal of the Confederate flag after the murder of members of Mother Emanuel in Charleston. In truth, Haley was a profile in cowardice.
Comments
"The Half has Never Been Told, Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism" 2014, by Edward Baptist, relates the real "service and sacrifice and heritage" of the Confederate States, white supremacy and slavery, represented by the Confederate flag.
From 1800 to 1860 American enslavers boosted cotton picking speed by a factor of ten. Slave labor is documented in logs as more than twice as productive by weight/day/person as that by "free labor" post Civil War. Picking was the key bottleneck in cotton production until mechanical harvesting machines were introduced in the 1930s.
Baptist shows that the enslavers "whipping machine", a true legacy of the South, was responsible for boosting production of cotton, providing a bonanza from the slave labor camps from South Carolina to Texas. From the book:
The bodies of the enslaved, of all ages, were also critical as collateral for enslaver loans from Wall Street and British banks. For over 50 years cotton was the chief American export exceeding all other exports combined every year, providing critical backing of American currency and banking capital for the industrialization in the north.
by NCD on Sat, 12/07/2019 - 9:38pm
Thanks for reminding me.
The nonsense continues
https://www.newsweek.com/unc-silent-sam-confederate-group-25-million-1475513
Stephen Miller, a white supremacist works in the White House.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/stephen-miller-is-what-we-thought-he-was-a-racist-a-nativist-and-a-white-supremacist
When Susan Collins announced her support for Brett Kavanaugh. One of the two women behind her was Cindy Hyde-Smith
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article219570050.html
Hyde-Smith's claim to fame?
https://www.thecut.com/2018/11/cindy-hyde-smith-mississippi.html
Haley, Collins, and Hyde-Smith are doing this in plain sight.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/07/2019 - 11:20pm
WaPo on what Haley gets wrong about the flag
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/12/08/nikki-haley-gets-history-confederate-flag-very-wrong/
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/08/2019 - 11:10am
While everyone's having fun Northsplainin', for those who want some context, there was quite a lot less overt racism to flag use in the 70's and 80's, and even a song like "the South's gonna do it again" didn't have a "let's revive slavery" feel, but more just that the South can regain some greatness. (remember the vibe of southern rock 'n Roll in the Carter White House). Probably the final change came in countering Clinton/Gore, making all the Trent Lott/Tom DeLay/Newt Gingrich types come out in full venom to build up the poor man's resentment rather than let's party rednecks.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/08/2019 - 1:47pm
The Lost Cause excuses no longer matter.
Edit to add:
The majority black citizens of Birmingham want Confederate statues gone. The white state judges say the statues can stay up. Fuck the excuses.
2nd Edit to add
You reference entertainment that Is unfamiliar to me.
Can you understand the outrage and justifiable anger people felt when the pastor of Mother Emanuel was eulogized under the Confederate flag?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/08/2019 - 4:12pm
Good point, I suspect that context is part of the beginnings of the southern whypipple's victimhood complex that eventually begat Trump....cancel culture police should beware that when policing is applied without nuance there is often blowback years down the road...
by artappraiser on Sun, 12/08/2019 - 4:55pm
Southern whypipple have lamented the Lost Cause for over 150 years. That begat the Klan. That begat sundown towns. That begat the Red Summer. That begat lynchings. That begat Jim Crow, That begat complaints about the Civil Rights movement. That begat voter suppression. That got whites and ethnic minorities to elect Obama. That got the majority of whypipple to ban together to elect Trump. The majority of whypipple are likely to vote for Trump again. If black people stop mentioning the Confederacy after people like Haley bring it up, I'm sure that whypipple won't vote for Trump again.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/08/2019 - 5:22pm
If you can't differentiate 160 years ago from 40 years ago from 18 years ago, your rantings don't much make any sense, except to give you a false sense of purpose or analysis. And oddly enough, they take away the one major positive, that unlike Malcolm X's pessimism, MLK was right - white and black could get along, develop civil society, build that dream. It wasn't perfect, there was far to go, but it was positive.
PS - it wasn't "The Lost Cause" in the 70's, at least where I saw. But that'd ruin your narrative.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/08/2019 - 6:13pm
Yawn.
The Lost Cause is exactly what Haley argues today.
Want to Read
The Myth of the Lost Cause: Why the South Fought the Civil War and Why the North Won
by
Edward H. Bonekemper III
4.09 · Rating details · 227 ratings · 53 reviews
The former Confederate states have continually mythologized the South’s defeat to the North, depicting the Civil War as unnecessary, or as a fight over states’ Constitutional rights, or as a David v. Goliath struggle in which the North waged “total war” over an underdog South. In The Myth of the Lost Cause, historian Edward Bonekemper deconstructs this multi-faceted myth, revealing the truth about the war that nearly tore the nation apart 150 years ago
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25404809-the-myth-of-the-lost-cause
Want to Read
The Myth of the Lost Cause and Civil War History
by
Gary W. Gallagher (Editor),
Alan T. Nolan (Editor)
,
Keith S. Bohannon (Contributor)
,
Peter S. Carmichael (Contributor)
,
Lesley J. Gordon (Contributor)
,
Charles J. Holden (Contributor)
,
Lloyd A. Hunter (Contributor)
,
Brooks D. Simpson (Contributor)
, more…
3.81 · Rating details · 156 ratings · 26 reviews
Was the Confederacy doomed from the start in its struggle against the superior might of the Union? Did its forces fight heroically against all odds for the cause of states' rights? In reality, these suggestions are an elaborate and intentional effort on the part of Southerners to rationalize the secession and the war itself. Unfortunately, skillful propagandists have been so successful in promoting this romanticized view that the Lost Cause has assumed a life of its own. Misrepresenting the war's true origins and its actual course, the myth of the Lost Cause distorts our national memory. In The Myth of the Lost Cause and Civil War History, nine historians describe and analyze the Lost Cause, identifying ways in which it falsifies history -- creating a volume that makes a significant contribution to Civil War historiography
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/353218.The_Myth_of_the_Lost_Cause_and_Civil_War_History
Your arguments are Lost Cause arguments
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/08/2019 - 7:26pm
The myth continues
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/05/16/why-young-southerners-still-get-indoctrinated-lost-cause/
Edit to add:
Why should people have to tolerate statues honoring traitors? The eulogy requiring Pinckey to be under a Confederate flag made no sense. Place Confederate crap in museums.
2nd Edit to add:
From a WaPo article right after Charleston. Opinion from a historian
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/06/19/what-the-confederate-flag-really-means-to-america-today-according-to-a-race-historian/
It does not matter that you are not offended.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/08/2019 - 10:47pm
I never saw a fucking civil war monument I can remember except at some battlefield, including Gettysburg. In your cornpone version of history, white folk be gathering around the campfire singing it out for Beauregard and Stonewall Jackson. Frankly I remember more David Bowie and Black Sabbath. But you keep your little story - I'm sure it warms your heart. Again, I'm describing a period when some if this shit started to go away, not saying it never existed.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 12:30am
It is still with us. The post is about what Haley says today. She is parroting the Lost Cause arguments. The Confederate flag being on SC state grounds is a recent event. Judges ruling that Confederate statues have to remain in place in Charlottesville and Birmingham, despite the feelings of local citizens, are current events. UNC paying a Confederate group millions of dollar is happening now.
The shit is in front of our faces.
Edit to add
The Heritage not Hate meme is found on white supremacy websites
Here is a response from the WaPo
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2015/06/19/the-trouble-with-heritage-not-hate/
From Sojourners
https://sojo.net/articles/false-narrative-heritage-not-hate
From the Daily Beast
https://www.thedailybeast.com/heritage-not-hate-sorry-white-south-they-go-together
You keep targeting me with negative comments, but I provide links to support my position. Mine is not a lone voice.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 7:54am
You keep ignoring my points and instead go out Googling to find people who you feel are allies to bolster arguments I'm not disputing. I quite readily accepted that Confederate statues had reached end-of-life (aside from a few museums) with Landrieu's excellent speech if not others. I was pointing out that the state of *the flag* in the 70's (Haley's early days) was less brazenly nostaligic for slavery as some promote it today, and as a kid I didn't run into many (any?) confederate statues, and they certainly weren't revered or made mention of, at least in my circles. You can Google all you want, and it still won't change my own observations, and you keep Googling for very different time periods - for what reason, I've no idea.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 9:06am
Read my post at 7:54 AM, it addresses the flag.
Black people were not focused on the Dukes of Hazzard or Lynard Skynyrd. King had been assassinated. Chisholm and Jackson ran for President. The Black Power movement and fighting for jobs and education was in the forefront.
No one cares what was happening in your isolated life in the 70s or 80s
We are in 2019.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 11:01am
In the 1970s and 1980s while you paid attention to "just a couple of good ole boys" and Sweet Home Alabama", blacks were facing Republican foes like Barry Goldwater, Richard Nixon, and Ronald Reagan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy
While you may have felt things were better, blacks were paying attention to a Republican attack rather than a television show and a rock band.
From the same Wiki link
Although the phrase "Southern Strategy" is often attributed to Nixon's political strategist Kevin Phillips, he did not originate it[15] but popularized it.[16] In an interview included in a 1970 New York Times article, Phillips stated his analysis based on studies of ethnic voting:
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 11:09pm
rmrd back on his Google thang. Dude, Goldwater was history in 1964 - pre-Civil Rights Act/Voting Rights Act/Texan LBJ's Great Society- pretty sure you can look it up. Nixon was disgraced and resigned by '74, on the ropes the whole year before. So the only one that fits the time period I noted is Reagan with Lee Atwater's Southern Strategy. But fuck, Jimmy Carter was in the White House 77-81 and you completely left him out of your rebuttal - wassup with that? And while I see what good ol' boys in pickups in the White House - Willie Nelson and mixed race Allman Brothers performing - not quite sure where you address the flag and statues, trying to address what was the feelgood sentiment that the Southern Strategy tried to waylay.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 1:17am
Carter had four years, then came Reagan. Wassup with leaving him out? Reagan began his campaign in Mississippi
https://theweek.com/articles/562088/southern-strategy-dead-does-republican-party-have-alternative
Reagan began his campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi
Reagan talked about welfare queens
You think blacks were concerned about a television show?
Nixon
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/07/ronald-reagans-racist-conversation-richard-nixon/595102/
Nixon on the phone with Reagan from the Atlantic
Yep times were great.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 7:54am
How'd you get to Willie Horton? That's Boston. Nothing to do with flags or statues. You got ADHD? Or is this just a scatter all "anything that affected black people for the last 2000 years" segue? And no, you don't have to quote Lee Atwater stuff back at me - I'm rather well-read, believe it or not.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 8:29am
No ADHD. Simply pointing out the steady deterioration over time. Your enjoyment of a television show and a band which you claim meant the South was changing meant that black people were having that great change experience. You may be well read on Lee Atwater, but you apparently think that he wasn't more important in shaping the black view of the South than the Dukes and Lynard Skynyrd.
The Confederate statues and the Confederate flag are not benign symbols.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 2:26pm
Keep not listening - you do it well.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 2:32pm
oh but all the preaching tying every racist thing under the sun for 200 yrs. to the flag has finally convinced me! Let's ban the Confederate flag! Racism solved! The troubles over!
by artappraiser on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 2:42pm
No one argues that the Confederate flag being gone cures racism. But it might indicate that black aren't getting their shins kicked as much.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 7:42pm
You are not saying anything of value. Blacks in South Carolina wanted the Confederate flag down in the same period when you are saying that Skynyrd was making a change. How quickly that supposed change vanished.
You will probably blame the failure on black people.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 7:46pm
Was thinking of that great anthem "The Night They Drive Old Dixie Down" written by that Southern (Canadian) boy Robbie Robertson and covered by that intractable White supremacist from NYC Joan Baez. Seems I remember a big singalong in that D.W.Griffith wannabe Scorcese's "The Last Waltz" in Madison Square Gardens? What's up with that? Just a bunch of racists, right?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 6:30am
The songs had nothing to do with the symbolism of the flag to black people, then or today. You are living in a bubble.
The Confederate statues have gone stale. The Confederate flag has gone stale. The flag is a racist symbol. If you are black and a car flying a Confederate flag pulls up, your first thought is not Lynard Skynyrd.
Edit to add:
Your first thought wasn't Lynard Skynyrd in the 1970s or 1980s either,
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 8:25am
Man, you can't read for shit.
Take a night class. You can Google, but too many words clutter up your mind.
Yes, the "Lost Cause" in the 70's for a lot of white folk - South and North - was more tinged with the collapse of a civilization, not "whoo boy, we was doin it right and then them damn Yankees come en screw it all up". But I don't recall anyone protesting The Band or Joan Baez either - my guess is "The Night..." didn't piss off blacks at the time because it was just a nice sad memorable song, and not laced with racist objectionable phrases or tied in with some racist political agenda - it was just about normal people and how they might view the collapse of their world. Somethign wrong with that?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 8:38am
I was pointing out the Confederate flag was not benign to black people. Ever.
You are in a bubble so you don't feel the impact.
The flag praises the Lost Cause and expresses defiance of the nation's demographics.
The statues and flags impact people of color and others not trapped in your bubble.
Here is what the Black Caucus in South Carolina was doing in the 1970s
https://www.vox.com/2015/6/20/8818093/confederate-flag-south-carolina-charleston-shooting
This is not about you.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 12:26pm
And is the Confederate flag over the Capitol different than the Confederate flag on a pickup?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 1:47pm
An idiot can pull up on sometime in his pickup flying a Confederate flag. That idiot should not be surprised if considered a threat.
Edit to add:
The flag goes hand in hand with other racist symbols
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6944641/Avowed-racist-ringleader-horrifying-1998-murder-black-man-executed-week.html
You are well read enough to know this.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 2:32pm
And they should ban trench coats because the guys at Columbine wore them. Ban hoodies as well - I hear they're tied to rampant criminality.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 2:34pm
Hey, great idea, that would stop all the school shootings!
by artappraiser on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 2:47pm
That is not a ban. It is noting that the idiot with the Confederate flag will be viewed with suspicion. You think that an unknown guy who walks up to a black family gathering is not going to be viewed with suspicion?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 7:52pm
hey are you suggesting individuals still have freedom of speech in the U..S.? and that a rebel flag might not always say "lost cause" and as a matter of fact the owner of a pickup truck with a rebel flag bumper sticker may be saying something we don't get because he don't know nothing bout no history....?
by artappraiser on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 9:47pm
See below
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 9:54pm
Seriously, PP, your intriguing points along this line got me thinking about how the Reagan era "southern strategy" may have intentionally co-opted and tried to strangle "lost cause" thinking. Yes, they were appealing to racism. But at the same time, you got all this stars-and-bars one-country patriotism being sold, i.e., Lee Greenwood's I'm Proud to be An American type of stuff. A unified 50 states under one flag. That hippies should stop burning the stars and bars implies Confederate sympathizers should also stop dissing it and stop worshipping a rebel cause. No more lost cause, one union, shining city on a hill under god-fearing Saint Ronnie (a narrative appealing to like yankee auto workers as well...)
by artappraiser on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 3:01pm
https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-daughters-of-the-confederacy-spoiled-christmasand-public-officials-instead-blamed-outside-agitators?ref=home
This is happening in 2019.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/08/2019 - 11:22am
I wonder what Murray Kempton would say.
In July 1945 , ,writing later, he described a Japanese soldier crawl under fire and pull back another previously wounded one,
Then Kempton’s buddy was shot.
As scrambling back to safety Kempton heard him moan “ You aren’t going to leave me are you”, Which was exactly he'd intended to do , Kempton wrote . Until shamed into doing what he had just observed an opponent do: rescue a wounded soldier under fire.
Writing later Kempton knew the record of the Japanese military brutality.The Bataan Death March was a fact,
But all facts are facts .So when he observed a case of heroism Kempton wrote he had observed a case of heroism. And when NCD writes that Confederate cotton growers set new records for production by setting new records for whipping that was a fact.
Like Picket’s charge .Or any other brave event . Even it is exploited by the Lost Cause .Will that acknowledgement be used to advance harmful positions?.Sure .
That happens with Free Speech.
by Flavius on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 12:28am
Using this logic, we should erect statues to brave Nazis?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 6:59am
We have statues to brave Romans, who enslaved and terrorized across Europe and North Africa. That's kind how history works. Pretty sure Romania has statues for Vlad the Impaler (Count Dracula), Italy of Catherine di Medici, one or two statues of Napoleon? Or Cromwell? Genghis Khan? Columbus and Cortez? Tito? Sir Francis Drake? Andrew Jackson even has the $20 bill.how about those Mayan ruins celebrating early slavery, intertribal conquest and live sacrifice, Aztec ruins celebrating the same only slightly later?
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 7:50am
Those statues are on the Romans, etc. Columbus Day is now called Indigenous People's Day in some cities. Times change. The Confederate flag is associated with the ongoing suppression of minorities today. Heritage and Hate cannot be separated.
Jackson should have been replaced by Harriet Tubman, but we have a white supremacist administration.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/us/politics/harriet-tubman-bill.html
Edit to add
Not going to investigate the others, but the Vlad statue in Bucharest is in a museum. The city is interesting as you head downtown you see buildings with bullet holes from the revolution. Truthfully, what other countries do has nothing to do with the discussion about Confederate displays in the United States.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 8:12am
If shouldn't bring up other countries, why the fuck do you bring up Nazis?
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 9:00am
We have Nazis in the United States, they marched in Charlottesville.
https://www.npr.org/2019/06/28/736915323/neo-nazi-who-killed-charlottesville-protester-is-sentenced-to-life-in-prison
How about a statue to Rockwell?
https://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/84tdt4qt9780252022852.html
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 11:05am
Now you're just getting stupid.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 4:46pm
Yes.
Or at least Germans should. As we do Patton.
Some victims behave nobly. Some survive by stealing food . From the weakest.
Ultimately the goal is for us ,now, to live here in better harmony . That is not advanced by falsely denying the good
qualities their ancestors had mixed in with their bad ones.
I've never met anyone who liked being kicked in the shins. Have you?
Maybe it seemed justified. Well deserved.
It doesn't make them want to vote for your candidate.
by Flavius on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 11:44am
I've never met anyone who liked being kicked in the shins. Have you?
everything I've ever read by rmrd tells me he wants to kick all the people he thinks are bad as often as possible, he believes kicking is a good thing and advances humanity in the end, just keep kicking 'em.
by artappraiser on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 12:02pm
p.s. Interesting this op-ed should appear just now, and why I posted it: on Keynes' opinion on what happens when you kick them when they are down.
by artappraiser on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 12:05pm
Removing Confederate symbols is equivalent to kicking people in the shins?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 12:22pm
you're the one who threw the statues in, the Haley thing about the flag was different and Peracles actually started to address how. But it's your blog and carry on tying everything together as one big evil with no nuance, it's the political propaganda way. I'm waiting on you to throw in the NFL now and BLM. Columbus Day, I see you already threw that in. Why doncha just make one blog over and over titled "All Racism"? It would be so much clearer that's what you want to discuss.
by artappraiser on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 12:36pm
You cannot separate heritage from the hate. Whether it be the flag or the statues, it is all about white supremacy. Haley went from saying that she couldn't look her children in the eyes in 2015, to the heritage not hate message today. Charlottesville was about statues. Charleston was about the flag.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/8/16/16151252/confederate-statues-white-supremacists
The battles are the same
How do you feel about Pinckney's body being eulogized under the Confederate flag?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 1:02pm
You know, when Hutus killed a few hundred thousand Tutsis, a few years after Tutsis killed a few hundred thousand Hutus, weren't a lot of white supremacists around, nor the 5 million killed (plus more raped) in the Congo 20 years ago. Don't recall a lot of white supremacists in Pol Pot's group as he took out a million+ in the killing Fields, don't remember White Supremacy as part of Mao's little red book as he killed 10 million in The Great Leap Forward and another 10 million in The Cultural Revolution. A lot of Lost Causes in this world - not sure you can blame them all on whitey, but keep trying -it's a hobby that'll keep on giving.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 5:00pm
The discussion is about the United States. The Lost Cause under consideration is the one happening in the United States.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 5:02pm
So ignore what humans do, and let's just pretend the South is a super special case. Can't separate heritage from hate? What kind of racist bullshit is that? Of course you can. Roughly the same heritage people were involved in criminal cotton slavery in one state, in the next state they were mostly non-participants. Of course there was plenty of hate towards the South too - some completely justified, some generations old ethnic/religious bullshit. The Irish and Scots were the English's niggers for a long while before the English discovered/built its slave ships and trade. Read about Cromwell - adored in England, hated in Ireland. Potato famine? English wouldn't open the foodstores while the Irish were dying en masse - had to meet exports back to England. That took place just 10-15 years before the Civil War. Think that didn't rub off in the New World, all them Scarlett O'Hara country redneck vermin making up the most immigrants per year over most of the 19th century?
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 5:20pm
Not to mention whaddabout (tribalism, such a wunnerful thing?) Just imagine the complicated logarithms it's gonna take to figure those reparations according to "heritage". How much does Liz Warren owe, for example? Will it be rated to six degrees of separation? And how does one parse how many slaves by each tribe over how many years for what reasons (another lost cause?) and influenced by what motives (lost cause!) ? I guess one could always argue: but my great great grandaddy, wasn't that kind of Cherokee? Saints vs. sinners, winners vs. losers, outside of political elections, not always easy to figure. Me, I started leaving my tribe at 17 and made the final break at 19. Really despise when they try to drag me in again.
by artappraiser on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 8:12pm
Nothing in your rant has anything to do with the topic being discussed.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 9:57pm
The Confederate statues and the Confederate flag were/ are used as intimidation of black people. Heritage = Hate.
The flag
https://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/confederate-flag-myths-facts/index.html
The statues
https://www.history.com/news/how-the-u-s-got-so-many-confederate-monuments
White people and other ethnic minorities are joining blacks in protesting these traitorous symbols.
It was an abomination for Pinckney to have his body under a Confederate flag.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 9:56pm
For 150 years, black people have been "kicked in the shins" by being fed a false narrative that the war was not about slavery. The flag and other Confederate paraphernalia are offensive, that is why they are used by white supremacists. Instead of honoring traitors, perhaps we should focus on telling the truth. Regarding the vote, what does the other side have to do to make us feel better? I refer you back to King's letter from a Birmingham jail. Moderates are a hindrance to progress. The statues and flags will continue to come down, despite your inaction.
If Trump is re-elected, it will not be the fault of Warren, Buttigieg, Biden, blacks or Progressives. The re-election will be laid squarely at the feet of the majority of white voters who like what Trump is doing.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 12:54pm
Who is your intended audience for the lecturing and yelling here at Dag? What is the purpose of your rants and lecturing? If they even turn off most members here who already are not going to vote for Trump? It is to express hatred, bitterness and anger, is it not? How does that help anything? Are you going for the smallest number of allies possible, is that the plan?
by artappraiser on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 2:04pm
I thought that a discussion was happening. I am arguing that the Lost Cause explains the Confederate statues and the need for the Confederate flag. I am not yelling. I am stating a position. Others disagree with my position on the Confederate statues and flag. I provide links to support my position.
Along the way, I ask what the other side has to do to appease us? I don't think that Progressives create Trump supporters, I think Trump supporters vote in their own self interest.
Edit to add:
How is stating the fact that a majority of the white vote may go to Trump yelling? It means that a coalition of whites and ethnic minorities have to ban together.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 4:54pm
The Sour Grapes smell of defeat is settling over the Resistance Camps long before the decisive battle of this New Civil Wat has even begun. It's pathetic to watch snowflakes seek succor from RINO quislings like Matt Lewis While brilliant Young Conservatives such as Candice Owens and BCP lead millions out of indentured servitude on the dem plantation and arm them to fight for the Army of The Republic.
by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 2:25pm
Candace Owens was kicked out of Turning Point
That little thing with Jewish people was OK.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 5:00pm
RM, you must have been asleep when Owens responded to that juvenile cherry picked smear by the despicable Ted Lieu was made who believes Black people aren't smart enough to read the whole interview and understand it. She showed her teeth and used her sharp wit to take a big bite out of that punk while also silencing the illiterate Jerrod the Huts' whining who was also trying unsuccessfully to silence her with lies.
Owens quit her job at TPUSA to lead the timely and much more important Blexit Movement that has produced incredible success in freeing peoples' minds from the dem plantation.
by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 7:05pm
The truth about Blexit
https://www.forbes.com/sites/morgansimon/2018/11/21/will-the-real-blexit-please-stand-up/#75f1f39d40e7
You don't post links because you are lazy and stupid.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 9:39pm
RM, I didn't know this bit of trivia but it's a great story. Owens will be honored for saving the Blexit idea from the clinging hands of separatist Marxist Collectivists, what a coup!
Now Black folks can move forward along with Owens and use Trump's Economic Enterprise Zones for the opportunity to work for and invest in their individual economic development that will benefit their communities in many ways.They don't have to retreat into commie enclaves where their investments would only finance more commie enclaves.
I'm beginning to understand why you continue to display your love of links. You seem to fear Free Thinking and individual thought. You seek shelter and the false security of groupthink or to be more precise you parrot whatever the Masters of the collective tell you to believe. What a sad existence.
by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 12/09/2019 - 11:35pm
I provide links to show Owens' theft of Blexit and to counter your bullshit.
I do have to admit that you are entertaining and confirm my impression of the low intelligence level of Trump supporters. You actually think that you are scoring points.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 8:04am
You think white families are not afraid of weird strangers and suspicious of them? especially biker looking folks wearing nasty scary stuff like chains, black leather, tattoos, confederate flags and nazi and other bad ass insignia? That's the whole idea of dressing like that: to scare nice families! Do you really think whites are never afraid of other whites?!!!
All the places you've taken this conversation are: ridiculous. Not just peddling, but romanticizing fear of the other
by artappraiser on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 9:56pm
P.S. I happened to think the Matt Lewis article in the Daily Beast was quite good. He called her on her dishonest spin for political expedience. But you took it allover the place to other times, memes and planets as usual, then argued with strawmen to try to make sense of the nonsense mishmosh romantic victimhood narratives and how nothing has changed for 150 years.
You blog, and your commenters can be critical and dismissive if they see sloppy thinking (or say, propaganda): that's the way it works. Amazingly: smart writers tend to welcome that kind of criticism learn from the audience and adjust their arguments and style to persuade rather than repeat the same things over and over and over.
by artappraiser on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 10:05pm
Fearing a guy waving a Confederate flag is rational. It is not romanticizing fear. It is reacting to a symbol used to intimidate and terrorize. The entire history of the flag is about oppression.
Your posts have become nonsensical. Your major concern is what has to be done to give aid and comfort to Confederate flag wavers. You require nothing of them. You only want to keep them happy. You are the one who wants their love. What does the Confederate flag waver have to do to make us feel safer?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 10:23pm
Over here in Europe I was as surprised as any to see rebel flags on summer cottages - are these people racist? Or just associate the image with country music/southern rock, being a Waylon/Willie rebel, fighting back against "the man", outdoor shit? I mean, people who've never touched a cow even in northern cities wear cowboy hats and go to cowboy hats, and btw those cowboys killed a lot of Mexicans and Indians (Corman McCarthy's Blood Meridian being one of the best deconst uctuons of that romantic image). 70's Travolta, "Urban Cowboy", remember? You take all symbols literally? You just may have Autism or Asperger's- ask your physician l, or read "A Curious Incident of a Dog..." to see if you relate to the narrator (probably not black, so a non-starter, but I tried...)
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 1:43am
I thought of this simple description: that for many the confederate flag went from representing a rebel with a lost cause to James Dean-ian rebel without a cause.Especially after state and local governments disavowed flying it. But before that, too. Just rebelling for the heck of it, the party hard thing, the "fuck the man" thing, the "take this job and shove it" thing, the loner thing, the guy that can't stand the ties of like marriage or fidelity, all that shit, that's the tie-in with country music. The kinda people you are talking about, to me, these are not fans of confederate statues, they don't give a shit about the history, don't study history, could care less.
by artappraiser on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 2:27am
Yes, it's a country version of punk essentially. Or even Jack Kerouac's Beats. Just different soundtrack, less jazz, less screaming.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 2:27am
Tho folks who carry Confederate paraphernalia can expect the same response as if they are wearing Nazi symbols.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 6:35am
And that's where you jump the shark. Hitler pulled off the beerhall putsch in Munich, but that doesn't mean Barbarians cancel Oktoberfest or change Bayerisch to something else, or that Germany stops calling itself Germany. It's a decade+ of great shame in a country's history. The South was/is a region sharing many values and lifestyles and ethnic similarities, not just cotton-based slavery. You'd probably demand they stop calling themselves "the South" if you could, except if course an exemption for black people to do what they please.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 7:23am
No shark jumping. Your post is irrational. You can party in Germany, but Nazi gear is a no-no.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 7:57am
The Confederate flag is not Nazi gear. The Confederate flag did not fly over plantations. Lincoln fought to preserve the Union, not to free the slaves - that came 18-20 months into his war as a morale pick me up.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 8:09am
Sigh
The Confederacy fought to expand slavery. The Confederacy lost rather than arm black people. The Union armed black soldiers and issued the Emancipation Proclamation. The Proclamation freed slaves in the Confederacy. The Confederacy hated blacks so much, they couldn't see them as soldiers. The Union form black troops, which situation was better? Lincoln and Douglass formed a friendship. Davis ran away in women's clothing.
And
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
So, once again, fuck the Confederacy.
Edit to add:
What is the fucking point of Confederate flags not flying over plantations? The plantation owners fought in the war and forced enslaved people to accompany them in battle. The plantation owners had flag bearers on the battlefield. Your post is irrational.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 9:03am
If you're going to invoke the Nazi flag and all its atrocities, at least try to be historical. As usual you want your cake and eat it to. Don't work like that.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 10:25am
Confederates did not commit atrocities? You are whitewashing history.
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtID=2&psid=3040
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtid=2&psid=446
Southerners need something new to celebrate. The Confederacy is not a cause for celebration. The Confederacy wanted to expand enslavement.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 11:49am
We are discussing the Confederate flag in the context of the United States with its history of enslaving black people. You keep avoiding the issue. A black family seeing a white man carrying a Confederate flag is being rational when they are suspicious. Your posts are also ridiculous.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 6:33am
A white man *carrying* a Confederate flag? Like duh. I get worried anyone carrying *any* kind of flag. I thought we were mostly talking about the flag on pickups or flyers or t-shirt or notebook vs the inappropriateness of having on a gov building.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 7:16am
You think this shirt wouldn't be viewed with suspicion?
The person has a free speech right to wear the shirt, but you're going to keep your kids closer to you.
Edit to add:
There is evidence of people wearing Confederate gear attacking blacks at random. There are not multiple cases of blacks punching out whites wearing Confederate gear.
Hate crimes are on the rise
https://depts.washington.edu/hiprc/blacks-minorities-disproportionately-impacted-by-hate-crimes/
Whypipple have gone crazy.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 8:15am
Quite a few cases of blacks attacking whites for whatever reason. I see the shirt as saying "leave me my culture" the way punks want to wear mohawks and Doc Martens, blacks want to wear braids, others want to do their thing. If they go all supremacist on you, then worry. They might just be typical suthurners w no ulterior motive.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 10:23am
You can have whatever delusion you wish. I don't have to wait for all to go white supremacist. If the Confederacy is all they get out of the South, they have a problem. I'm not going call for harming people wearing Confederate gear, but I'm not going to trust them. You, of course, face zero risk from the Confederates.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 11:34am
Huh? You think I fit in easy down there? Again you're not paying much attention.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 11:47am
You are the one celebrating their "rebel". spirit. You can't separate the heritage of the "rebels" from the evil of the Lost Cause.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 11:52am
Ah now here you have finally drilled back to addressing the topic you yourself brought up at the start and your opinion on it!
And Peracles disagrees. Now, one could actually start a discussion. All the rest was nonsense distracting prologue.
First there were like a hundred comments that had little to do with it, lots of googling, lots of unrelated links and even made up arguments with strawmen. A story on one aspect of racism always turns into preachy lectures with lotsa links that ends up as: everything has to do with everything else and blacks are the worst victims evah in the history of the world, MLK and the 60's always gets thrown in there....anything you can think of that upsets you. No progress has been made, no justice, no peace, everything the same as Jim Crow days. Surprised BBQ Becky didn't show up....
I.E., what is the purpose of bringing up the guy convicted for the horrific dragging crime? It's proof of progress that he was convicted! Jim Crow, lost cause would be: he got away with it.
What Peracles is trying to say is that things are not the same now and suggesting that whether or not people use the flag to symbolize something has nothing to do with acting out. There are bad people, they are not going away if you like took a flag away from them or their goth clothes away from the Columbine shooters. We get that the flag signifies different things to different people, including Southern blacks, but once it was not flown by government what don't you get about: you won?There has been great progress, admit it and stop some of the victim role. They get arrested if they do wrong thinking of lost cause or whatever they are thinking about. It's the acts that are against the law, not the thought. And yes, we have freedom of speech and they can think about lost cause if they want to.
by artappraiser on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 12:44pm
You are the one missing the point. The context of the Confederate flag has not changed. You are the one calling blacks victims. You are the one saying that it is our obligation to "understand " the poor Confederates. What is their obligation to us?
The Confederate paraphernalia went up to intimidate black people. Blacks are fighting to take the symbols down. No one thinks Confederates are going away, but we can get in their face like they get into our faces. You are actually comparing Goth clothing to Confederate gear. You have zero understanding of historical context. As I said, you exist in a bubble.
Confederates are not going away. Conservatives are not created by pointing out history. Victims sit in their corners and whine when other people take action. Victims worry about causing a civil war by speaking truth. Victims are oblivious to the fact that the Confederate in the White House is holding rallies geared to inciting a civil war. Victims think people speaking ou are the problem. Enjoy your bubble.
Edit to add:
There are racial discrepancies in health care, housing, the justice system, etc. pointing out these facts is not victimhood but providing information to form a plan of attack. You can't see that from your bubble. Thank goodness you are not in a decision making position where you could actually do harm.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 1:20pm
Bo Jangles and Stephen Fetchit were great performers for their time. Booker T Washington was felt to be behind the times even during his lifetime. Times change. The Confederacy is not all that the South has to offer.
Edit to add:
Another amazing thing is that the argument is made that the way the Confederate flag was used in the 1970s and 1980s was changing. Yet organizations like the NAACP were working to have flags taken down. The underlying assumption is that the NAACP's perception, not those of flag supporters, was wrong. In the current discussion it is assumed that people who disagree with the flying of Confederate flags or wearing Confederate gear are wrong. The argument has always been that the whypipple should determine how the flag is perceived. Nothing has changed.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 4:25pm
I never argued working to take down the flag was wrong. Whining like a bitch and using shotgun logic doesn't much help convince anyone of anything.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 5:50pm
You argue that we give people who love the Confederates the benefit of the doubt. You are the bitch in this scenario. I don't have to convince you, there are already people working to get the traitorous flags down.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 9:07pm
Sorry, but sticking up for your state was not traitorous.
There was no pledge of allegiance to the US flag back then,
considering "States Rights" was certainly a principle for the Founding Fathers
and decades after. Come to think of it, I think Lincoln buried that ideal.
Anyway, I was talking about people who have a flag on their pickup -
"love the Confederates" might be a gross generalization.
But keep on spinning.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 9:57pm
The folks who wear Confederate gear in public can be expected to be looked upon with suspicion. The gear is associated with white supremacists and those who wear the gear know how the Confederacy is view.
Confederates did believe in States Rights. Confederates demanded that states who had laws that said enslaved people who crossed their borders were free had to return these newly freed people back to their enslavers.
The Confederacy was formed to make future states the joined the United States could be slave states.
South Carolina
-----
In its constitution, Confederate leaders explicitly provided for the federal protection of slaveholding:
It’s a provision that clashes jarringly with neo-Confederate mythos—how could the South secede to preserve states’ rights if its own constitution mandated legal, federally protected slavery across state borders?
South Carolina was the first state to secede from the Union. On Dec. 24, 1860, its government issued a “Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union.” In it, South Carolinian leaders aired objections to laws in Northern states—specifically, those that sprung from the case of Prigg v. Pennsylvania (1842), in which the US Supreme Court ruled that state authorities could not be forced to help return fugitive slaves to the South. Ensuing individual state legislation in New England would double down on that very ruling, expressly forbidding state officials from enforcing the federal Fugitive Slave Acts, or the use of state jails to detain fugitive slaves
In effect, South Carolina seceded because the federal government would not overturn abolitionist policies in Northern states. South Carolina seceded because the federal government would not violate a state’s right to abstain from slavery and its concomitant policies.
-----
https://qz.com/378533/for-the-last-time-the-american-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/
You continue to peddle Lost Cause lies.
People who wear Confederate gear want to gaslight the country. Some of them, like Dylann Roof, are threats to the nation.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 10:21pm
Response to AA above
This was her response to my stating the obvious, a group of black people would view a white man carrying a Confederate flag with suspicion.
I previously asked if the family of Reverend Pinckney should have to face the indignity of his body eulogized under a Confederate flag. We ignore their pain but shed tears for those who are questioned about using the Confederate flag.
There is an appropriate response in the Chicago Tribune
https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-opinion-nikki-haley-confederate-flag-20191209-hsyiwmzmmjblpp4qrbsgkbxfbq-story.html
Nikki Haley says the Confederate flag was hijacked. Nikki Haley is a liar
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 10:09pm
Saw this at WaPo:
I live in Mississippi.
I know what that flag stands for.
Dylann Roof got the meaning of that flag 100% correct.
It stands for keeping blacks in perpetual terror and telling them, in no uncertain terms, that their citizenship will ALWAYS be lesser than a white person’s.
And if you hang around any person who flies that flag down here long enough they will happily say so.
by NCD on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 11:59pm
How she has responded:
She tweeted that on Dec. 11 and retweeted it on Dec. 13.
by artappraiser on Mon, 12/16/2019 - 11:49pm
Interesting side note--I just ran across Wells Fargo tweet quoting her in their picture as regards the global economy and their Nov. Global Investment Symposium advice for investors titled A Year Before Election Day: What Matters Most:
Why they chose her, I have no clue.
by artappraiser on Tue, 12/17/2019 - 12:00am
Nobel Prize winner Daniel Kahneman in his book, Thinking, Fast and Slow, effectively discounts the accuracy of pundits, economic or otherwise, from long term studies of their work.
He notes an interesting point on forecasting events, that there was a 50% chance Hitler was born Heidi not Adolf. An alternative, equally likely, event that could have completely altered the history of the 20th century.
by NCD on Tue, 12/17/2019 - 12:49am
90% or more of company profits over the years are from Black Swans, wild developments that no one can predict,. So all this patting on the back for investors is trying to squeeze out a 5-10% living while hoping to be lucky enough to accidentally catch a good Black Swan (an iPhone, not a late Nokia or Enron)
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 12/17/2019 - 3:24am
South Carolina is not healed. Haley just poured salt on the wound.
Edit to add:
The Confederacy was built upon enslaving black people. The Confederate flag re-emerged as a symbol of protest against civil rights. Now, we are told the flag is just about heritage. We are told we can separate things. This despite the fact that many tell us that the flag has nothing to do with racism.
When Tamika Mallory of the Women's March talked about of her love for Louis Farrakhan, she was condemned for supporting an anti-Semite. Mallory says that she disagrees with Farrakhan's rhetoric. Mallory only supports the good that Farrakhan does in the black community.. No anti-Semitism here.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/17/2019 - 9:27pm
No, you were told you *can't* blithely separate things, that unlike the Nazi flag, the Southern flags refer to both the Confederacy as a breakaway region (expressing both their right to self-determination & exemplifying their contempt for black people's freedom & self-determination), as well as southern culture, as well as a types of music as well as a symbol of rebelliousness/stick it to the man, as well as country life, as well as a symbol of being resistant to Civil Rights, et al. And *never* said that the flag has *nothing to do with racism". More made up shit.
The US flag was taken on many a KKK raid with cross-burning - are you going to ban that flag? Is it an essential part of the anti-black experience, the horror of the stars and stripes? That flag was used to conquer the west, wiping out Indian/Native civilizations as well as stealing huge amounts of land from the Mexicans. It must be terrorizing for every Hispanic American to see that flag flying over the courthouse, with kids yelling, "the Cavalry's coming, the Cavalry's coming".
"Mallory only supports the good that Farrakhan does in the black community.. No anti-Semitism here." - yeah, Leni Riefenstahl just wanted to make creative films - she didn't hate the gypsy kids the Nazis pulled out of concentration camps to be in her films. No anti-gypsy sentiment here. Seriously, you've been working on this for decades - is this as shitty as your argumentation's gotten? So Trudeau didn't *mean* anything bad from wearing blackface, so why doesn't he get excused like you excuse Mallory? Quite the double standards you've got while wielding your razor. Why is it not okay then to recognize the good that Woodrow Wilson did even while acknowledging his racist civil service policies? Why can you not acknowledge that some Confederate soldiers were simply soldiers doing their jobs, as usual not asking political questions, so could be honored as soldiers, not as racists or slave owners? You want 1 set of rules for blacks, 1 for whites apparently - which is usually called "racism".
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 4:30am
The Confederate flag is equivalent to the flag of the United States in your eyes? The Confederate flag stands for nothing worthy of honor. Confederates were fighting for enslavement of black people. Mallory supports an anti-Semite. Confederates lost rather than arm blacks, because they viewed blacks as inferior. Blacks were able to vote, something that would have never happened in the Confederacy.
The Confederate flag re-emerged as a symbol to intimidate blacks who wanted full citizenship rights. The United States flag was flying when black were freed. The flag has flown over some horrible events. Everything the Confederate flag flew over was dedicated to enslavement. They even tried to convince us that blacks fought for the Confederacy to pretend that the Confederate flag was honorable. Confederates were really honorable at Fort Pillow.
Mallory was forced out of the Women's March. Trudeau is Prime Minister of Canada. There is a respected Woodrow Wilson Center. Only Mallory was cancelled. There is double standard, and it is the one you want to apply selectively in favor of the Confederates.
You are ranting. Lots of Confederate whataboutism. Confederates fought for slavery, Fort Pillow proved their viciousness. Nothing of honor to see here. Slowly, but surely Confederate flags will come down.
Edit to add:
Germany does not glorify Nazis. Current citizens Germany have family who were Nazis and fought in the war. We should not celebrate Confederates in the United States. The Confederate flag in its current context is a symbol for white grievance. It is not a unifying symbol.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 9:57am
Lots of verbal jacking off to miss the point that Old Glory waved over good ol Indian and Mexican casualties and other US atrocities. Never been a big fan of flags, perhaps since the school principal caught me slyly flipping the bird at one. Seems I didn't make the school Annual that year.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 10:09am
No jacking off. I simply pointed out that while the flag of the United States has many problems, EVERYTHING that the Confederates flags stood for was evil. Whataboutism fails.
Edit to add
As more research is done, the worse the Confederacy appears. The government was an aristocracy with willing dupes who wanted it known that at least they weren't niggers. Fort Pillow had white Southern Unionists fighting along with the US Colored Troops. The Baptist and Methodist churches split because of the stench of the Confederacy. West Virginia came into existent because citizens said no thanks to Confederate traitors. Every Confederate state except South Carolina had troops fighting for the Union. Jones County, Mississippi refused to fight for the Confederacy, and formed a guerilla army along with blacks fighting against the Confederates. The argument that Confederates were fighting for their states and not white supremacy is a farce. It has been 150 years, time for the South to truly join the Union.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 2:07pm
Your posting history here has revealed you to be obsessed with the historic meanings of symbols when meanings of symbols change all the time and lose or gain power through the eye of the beholder.
The Daily Beast article you cited on Haley doesn't even mention the Confederacy! It is about her suspected insincerity about Trump for political expediency.
You read it and started thinking about the Confederacy and decided it was about the Confederate flag! And that like Nikki Haley is a secret Confederate sympathizer, or what?
And most people care about the Confederate flag and statues very little in the scheme of things since it is no longer flown over any government building and it's the 21st century and they got new problems.
I glean from all of this: you are absurdly obsessed with Confederate symbols, they mean something to you as if it were still 1910, they frighten you. And you think getting rid of them will accomplish something important, like I dunno, cause Trump to disappear or that through knowing how people react to them, you can read their hearts and minds about today's politics. Unfortunately, lots of people like, say, Diamond and Silk, are not cowering in fear of the Confederate flag, and this drives you nuts.
Peracles is right to equate this with U.S. flag nuts, who think not respecting the flag enough means a person is not a patriot.
As to your druthers, why don't you just come straight out and say it that you think those who give Trump a posititive approval rating are all the same as the old Confederate patriots, and you think we should have never stayed a Union, that the Civil War should have ended with us as two separate countries and maybe we need to still do that? Why keep beating about the bush? This appears to be the heart of your obsession. You don't like those people and think it is not possible that they be tolerated but they need to be banished from your country. And a good litmus test for who those are is whether they support banning certain flags and statues.
Such an absurd way to think about things.
by artappraiser on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 3:03pm
I'm trying to figure out if Gone With The Wind should be banned.
And those Southern accents - it's like listening to back chatter at Auschwitz. Why exactly *don't* they speak English?
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 3:08pm
Unfortunately, thinking about symbolism, those in the U.S. with some years yet to live should probably be more concerned about figuring out which movies are being banned or not in Russia and China and India/Pakistan....
by artappraiser on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 3:30pm
PP, was just outside interacting with the Dominican immigrant neighbors bout something. Afterwards my mind jumped to: how the Confederate flag must mean jack shit to them! Then I my mind jumped to how the Puerto Rican flag definitely means a heckuva lot to a lot of different people when it's flown here in the NYC area. And how I would interpret that meaning for most, sort of like you were trying to describe many of the Confederate flag users in this day and age: the message is basically: fuck you!
by artappraiser on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 3:59pm
and then: how neither means jack shit to the young Chinese-speaking family that just bought the house one door over and paved over their little spit of land which once had a tree and bushes and flowers, so there would be another parking place....America,what a country!
by artappraiser on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 4:10pm
What does Richard Gere's Tibetan flag mean to the Chinese, what does the Chinese flag mean to Uyghurs, what does the Japanese flag mean to Koreans, what does the Union Jack mean to Indians and Jamaicans, what does the Belgian flag mean to Congolese, what does the Catalonian flag mean to Spanish, what does the Turkish flag mean to Armenians and Syrians, what does the French flag mean to Vietnamese, the Portuguese flag to Brazilian slave descendents,... How do Mexicans feel about Texas' Lone Star, used to import slaves and steal north of the Rio Grande... The Maple Leaf to Acadians/Cajuns put on leaky ships in Canada and sailed to New Orleans...
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 4:33pm
Gee. Why would I bring up Nikki and the Confederacy after reading an article about how disappointed the author was in Haley? Perhaps it was because Haley opined about the meaning of the Confederate flag mere days before the article in an interview with Glenn Beck. It was in the papers.
From the WaPo
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/12/08/nikki-haley-gets-history-confederate-flag-very-wrong/
The interview was another example of how Haley is a disappointment.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 9:41pm
The Civil War and the Confederacy are still with us. There is protest over UNC paying a Confederate group to store a Confederate statue. This is happening in 2019. You are in a bubble.
https://www.theroot.com/reparations-for-confederates-unc-system-trustees-fac-1840517913
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 10:32pm
Thank you for demonstrating your lack of knowledge by mentioning Diamond & Silk.
https://theoutline.com/post/6705/diamond-and-silk-dummycrats-review?zd=1&zi=74jeplcb
You are so gullible that you think Diamond & Silk are credible. You need to consider life outside your bubble.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/18/2019 - 11:18pm