OH WELL, I'LL START IT

    As a supporter of Obama's handling of Libya (oh, hadn't you noticed) I thought it was a good enough speech in that it passed the minimum hurdle, it  won't have created any new opposition. Neither will it have converted any existing opponents. 

    To be more specific,I like his explanation that whatever we might do in other cases, the particular characteristics of the situation in this particular country in the context of our particular strengths led to an outcome that might not often be duplicated. 

    I wouldn't find it unfair if some opponent soon appears here calling it a CYA. But then, what's wrong with that?

    So here's a blank slate if you want to write dirty words before the chalk gives out.

    Comments

    I do not have any dirty words today!

    We have attempted several times to kill Qaddafi, Khaddaffi or whatever you call the bastard both overtly and covertly I am sure.

    And we have the dance of the UN & NATO & US; all to the same tune with the Arab League entering the fray.

    I am just sick and tired of our military advancements into every nook and cranny on this war torn planet!


    Mud.

    Food stains..

    Dust and dustmites.

    Creepy crud and grunge.


    RAYTHEON


    Reminds me of a meeting I attended.

    Fritz Gross was the manager of  Missile &Space Division. A  subordinate  was  describing  the laser to him.

    Scientist: You can drill a hole in somebody a mile away.

    Gross: Can't we talk about something else?


    Whip The F.oes

    Win The Future


    I was very happy when Mobutu was forced out, thought Kabila a much better face for democracy.

    5 million dead later (including Kabila) and a country in tatters, I'd take back the corrupt old leopard. Aristide throwing out Baby Doc did little to improve the nation's fortunes. The Ayatollah was no more humanitarian than the Shah (likely less).

    Seeing as some of the leaders of the rebels are long-time Qaddhafi allies recently turned, what's our assurance or even guess that the next step is democracy? Instead of wishing and hoping, do we have any plans underway for the democratic side of the coin, or is like with Iraq, post-occupation something we'll plan when we get to it? Obama doesn't say.

    I don't believe Obama's figures of "kill over a thousand people in a single day". But if we're concerned when leaders say they're going to retaliate against their own people, are we also concerned enough when Western leaders say we should pre-emptively attack a country (say Iran) that we should rally international sanctions and military action against them? [i.e. should the US attack itself?]  We're laying out a plan for Russia (when they kill Chechens), Sudan (when they kill Christians in the south), Cambodia (wasn't long ago bloodied protesters left stains all in front of the hospital), and on and on. (China? Can we see any relaxation in Tibet and Xinjiang? Less killing of peaceful protesters?)

    we must stand alongside those who believe in the same core principles that have guided us through many storms: our opposition to violence directed against one's own citizens; our support for a set of universal rights, including the freedom for people to express themselves and choose their leaders; our support for governments that are ultimately responsive to the aspirations of the people.

    Except it was just a few weeks ago we were pushing Mubarak's #2 in to replace him, i.e. one of the guys thick with the ruling regime.

    James Zogby:  In the lead up to the Iraq War, I pressed the Democratic Party to pass a resolution opposing the war unless and until then President Bush defined "the costs, consequences, and terms of commitment" entailed. I also cautioned that "we should never consider military engagement in a country whose people, history and culture we do not know". Efforts to stop that war failed and the results, too painful to consider, are still with us. The same questions that should have been answered before we invaded Iraq should also have been asked and answered before hostilities began with Libya. The fact that they were not, and that lessons have not been learned, is deeply troubling.

    As originally proclaimed "days, not weeks", Hillary and Gates have come out and said "likely into the next year". Short answer is we haven't a clue. Longer answer is because we don't have a clue, chances are it will be a mess.

    But as to Obama's speech, we tolerate a lot of tyrants who don't tolerate dissent. Waking up one day and acting against one we dislike is hardly the magnus opus Obama pretends. There's more blood on Maliki's and Karzai's hands then there is on Qaddhafi's (there always is during war, but the hunting down of Sunnis, ie. ethnic cleansing), but those are our friends. We manage to keep killing civilians with our drone and helicopter attacks in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Yemen, but as long as we say sorry, all should be forgiven, no?

    But Flavius likes Obama's exceptionalism: we're doing something different in this case because it's different, and if we find some other different situation we'll do something different there too.

    I compared this before to the 2000 Supreme Court ruling, where the Justices declared: "this is a unique circumstance, not to be an example for any incident coming later".

    So if all goes well, I will applaud a small act of humaneness in a sea of brutality.

    And if all goes badly, we'll see another 10 years of Qaddhafi thumbing his nose at the west, and Libya mired still in its sea of repression, or replaced by another goon who does much the same.

    But frankly, I just don't expect much change at all, and the main thing I see is we've switched from cheering on democratic protests to now providing the air-and-sea arm to ragtag, piss poor handful of poorly-armed ground rebels. Funny, even when supporting the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan we had better partners than this, and we saw how unsuccessful that was until we launched full scale air war (and Putin taught us how to bribe Northern Alliance leaders into actually fighting).

    So find the pony, I'm going back to sleep.


    Should comment on the War Making powers.

    Mr. "I taught Constitutional Law" perfesser says that he can start off a military conflict because it's humanitarian, and not that long, and whatever.

    Of course when and if an existing war comes before Congress for approval, well it's rather difficult for Congress to then say no, isn't it? After all, we're in a conflict - if we back out, we lose face or suffer real consequences. So it's unpatriotic to demand withdrawal. (Remember, it was unpatriotic to even lower funding for the Iraq War, maybe even treason - supposedly someone decided Congress has the power to declare war, but not the power to undeclare it, even through economic fiat).

    So the lesson is - the President should get us into wars first and then maybe ask permission, because permission at that point is always granted.

    Like how much trouble would it have been for Obama to give last night's speech to Congress 2 weeks ago and get their response? Apparently way too much.

    So much for the Constitution.


    From David Wood, HuffPost:

    But according to an analysis by Jamsheed K. Choksy, a Middle East expert at Indiana University, there are perils ahead whether Gaddafi is able to cling to power or not.

    “Several of Qadhafi's old cronies are lining up with the populist uprising hoping to at least save their hides and at most to profit politically and financially," Choksy cautions in an essay in Small Wars Journal.

    Toppling Gaddafi is only a first step toward the opposition’s aspirations of freedom and representative government. Whether the rebels take power in all of Libya or merely the eastern half, they will have to manage tricky political maneuvering and meet the public’s appetite for speedy economic and political reform -- perhaps struggling with opposition within their own ranks.

    “If the rebels gain control of Libya, they will then have to grapple with those individuals within the interim council linked to 42 years of repression," Choksy writes. Ultimately, he cautions, “the rebellion may not bring appropriate change but could represent the political survival of an old guard linked to the Middle East’s 'mad dog' or even the rise of Islamism."


    I don't believe Obama's figures of "kill over a thousand people in a single day".

    I believe that was a reference to the 1996 Abu Salim Prison Massacre. Protests about it, by families of the vicitms and their supporters in Benghazi in February,and Gaddafi's actions thereafter, like arresting the human rights activist that represented those families, were one of the catalysts of the current Libyan uprising. From The Abu Salim Massacre: Cables on Libya's Continued Impunity for 1996 Killings, by Kevin Gosztola, OpEdNews, Feb. 18

    Two days ahead of calls to protest the Gaddafi regime in a "Day of Rage" on February 17, members of the Committee of the Families of the Victims of the Abu Salim Massacre came out to protest. Libyan attorney and human rights activist Fathi Terbil, who represents families that had family members massacred in mass prison killings that took place at the Abu Salim prison in 1996, was arrested . Terbil's arrest led to an eruption of protests ahead of the planned "Day of Rage."

    Protesters showed up to the police headquarters in the city of Benghazi to demand his release. The crowd outside swelled to somewhere between one and two thousand. This response demonstrated how the Gaddafi's refusal to prosecute those responsible for the massacre of nearly 1200 prisoners in over a decade ago has created a deep resentment among Libyans toward the regime.....

    The number killed in it is usually cited at around 1,000/1,200.

    Here's the full paragraph from the speech:

    At this point, the United States and the world faced a choice.  Qaddafi declared he would show “no mercy” to his own people.  He compared them to rats, and threatened to go door to door to inflict punishment.  In the past, we have seen him hang civilians in the streets, and kill over a thousand people in a single day.  Now we saw regime forces on the outskirts of the city.  We knew that if we wanted -- if we waited one more day, Benghazi, a city nearly the size of Charlotte, could suffer a massacre that would have reverberated across the region and stained the conscience of the world.


    Okay, figured it was from a period before we were at war with Eurasia/East Asia/some other Asia.


    I'm staying out of this one. 


    You're staying out of it?  It's your blog, flavius!  I admit that it's the most Eeyore-speak depressing blog I've ever seen ( read it aloud to my mate in his voice just now), but you put it up!  I had hoped for a little more rousing praise for the speech or something.  I didn't watch it, so I went for the dirty words you asked for.   ;o)


    No guts!


    Ha Ha!  Excellent.


    Blackwater. Waterboarding. Birth defects. Lies. Liars. Drone kills. Cystic fibrosis. Starvation.Genocide. Solitary confinement. Cluster bombs. Shock and awe. Torture. Unconstitutional acts. Activist conservative judges. 'Food insecurity'. Poverty. Anti-union. Jobless. Iatrogenic. Drone assassinations. Cheney-esque. Rape. Murder. Citizens United. NRA. Humorless. Economic elites. Corporate welfare. War on Terror. War on Drugs. Alzheimer's. Radioactive. Unitary executive. Seniors in poverty. Foster care system. Income disparity. Wealth disparity. Diebold voting. Mortgage fraud. Dark Army Ops. Homelessness. Conscienceless. 'Clean coal'. Spiders and mosquitoes. Military Industrial Congressional Complex. AIDS. Heartless. Lynching. Fake austerity. You get the drift.

    Loveless.


    I like spiders.


    It figures.  ;oP


    So does that mean that Obama's Libyan policy is akin to the SCOTUS decision in Bush v. Gore?  It's a one time thing and not necessarily applicable to any other possibly similar situation?


    Well, as usual, he's saying both things at once -

    - it's a one time thing, don't expect it applies to Bahrain, Yemen, Ivory Coast, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Chechnya, Tibet.... or any other uprising coming to a theater near you

    - but because we're so goddamn awesomely universally humanitarian, this is just another example of how we've get teh awesome in our blood that we're always sticking up for the little guy, so trust us and enough with these pesky questions 

    [and did I mention Libya's part of the Axis of Evil? Yep, late-inning substitution for Hussein, leftie, good forkball, known to grease the ball when can get away with it, good closer]


    Still, he's no Al Hrabosky. 

    Just sayin'. The Mad Hungarian - you can't touch that. 


    You're such a card - of course you can't touch that - it's a mad mad mad mad world. But since when did Hungary count in politics?


    Many people make the hypocrisy argument against our intervention. I certainly agree that it is a demonstration of hypocrisy when the same reason could be applied in so many other places around the world.  I don't buy the humanitarian intervention story as being the real reason for our action but just an excuse. Presumably, then, there is a real reason for switching sides and overtly intervening. That is the story we should be told but maybe Strauss was right, maybe we just cannot handle the truth so we must be told the "Noble Lie". .
     Another way that Obama demonstrates hypocrisy involving war decisions is demonstrated  [I first miss-typed typed "deemon strated] when Bradley Manning sees evidence of severe human rights violations resulting in the death of innocents as well as other war crimes and the lies that cover those actions by us and he bravely intervenes, without causing death, in an attempt to stop them.
      Bradley Manning gets solitary confinement and is charged with a capital offense. Maybe Obama will show his compassion and reduce Manning's death penalty to 50 or 60 years.


    You and Des and your ilk may like this; Falk turns conventional wisdom of the legality and morality about this on its head...or somewhere...

    http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/03/2011322135442593945.html#


    Careful, don't go insultin" anyone by saying that they are my ilk. I aint  GOT no ilk.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97IBY8cQ5fs


    Ack!  A bluesy dance tune!  What a range he has: Frogman to falsetto!  Boogied in my chair; thanks, Lulu.  I really needed that!  (looks like The Boss does it, too; I'll go listen soon...)   ;o)


    Yeah, right. Ma says come home, she's keeping your room for ya, even cleaned out the cobwebs and replaced your stash of girlie mags. (The twins rifled through the old batch, you know them young'uns).

    And don't forget to bring milk.


    I agree with your take on the speech Flavius -- passed the minimum hurdle but won't change minds.  That's okay.  I don't have to agree with everything the President does, or even with most things.  However, I am irked by one part of it. Obama implied that his administration was responding to the international community when it seemed pretty clear that we actually led the international community to its ultimate conclusion.  I suppose if you support the action anyway that you might feel this is a minor objection, but I think the causality is important.  Did we respond to the world's cries for help or did the world respond to our desire to intercede?

    I'm also still quite concerned about how the economics of this ultimately play out.  What will the President say when his opponents use the money spent in Libya to justify cuts at home?  He gave us no assurances.


    it seemed pretty clear that we actually led the international community to its ultimate conclusion

    There goes the mob,” said Ledru-Rollin,  “I am their leader. I must follow them.” 


    As one pundit expressed this morning, Obama's problem (in the court of public opinion) is that the coalition acted before the Libyan regime committed acts that would have outraged the people in other countries.  Once the Libyan air force got into the mix, it was pretty clear to some that this more than just putting down unrest in the streets.  Given the obvious anomosity between those in the eastern and western parts of the country, there was a good chance the Libyan army would have sent a message with large scale killing of civilians in the eastern cities.  This would have led to a possible large refugee influx into at least Egypt which is dealing with its own fragile situation.  Yet this is all speculation.  The establishment of the no-fly zone occurred before any of this could happen.  And since it is speculation about what might have happened, those who oppose the intervention do not have to explain what they would do in such a situation.


    I thought that I haven't seen such passionate delivery of a speech from him in a very long time.

    And I thought of the common criticism of him that he won't ever stand strongly for anything, because you couldn't say that about this speech. He strongly addressed the arguments against from both ends of the spectrum and came pretty close to saying "you're wrong, I'm right." (I've seen some negative commenting around the net on it calling him "King Obama" and I think those people saw the speech I saw, though I don't necessarily agree with the implications of using that terminology.)

    Then I thought back to the cautious, cautious administration reaction to Egypt and Tunisia and similar. And the story of the arguments in the administration about the Libya situation and how the push to the UN Resolution developed only a few days before from Clinton, Power and Rice, and that they themselves had been more cautious before that. Then I thought of the oft purported influence on him of  Goodwn's "Team of Rivals".

    And then I thought: it sure seems like he has finally made his mind up about which way the world is going and what the U.S. should do about it, after not being sure for quite some time. And now that he's made his mind up, he isn't likely to change it. And he doesn't care about how his decision on this front will affect re-election chances, that from here on in, policy on this front is going to be executed to be judged by the history books and not the polls.

    And then I found this surprising interpretation from someone who also saw it as passionate speech this morning:

    http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/28/obama_on_libya_watch_out...

    That might be interpreting what I saw too far, but it does get at the general gist, i.e., noting the "north star" and American Revolution..

    P.S. For those that didn't see it and would like to, video and transcript here.

    .


    Marc Lynch's new post, Why Obama had to act in Libya, basically summarizes the background on the admnistration p.o.v. the way I also understand it, in these three paragraphs, my bold highlighting:

    ...My conversations with administration officials, including but not limited to the one recounted by the indefatigable Laura Rozen, convinced me that they believed that a failure to act when and how they did would have led to a horrific slaughter in Benghazi and then across Libya.  There was no mad rush to war, and certainly no master plan to invade Libya to grab its oil.  The administration resisted intervening militarily until they had no choice, preferring at first to use diplomatic means and economic sanctions to signal that Qaddafi's use of force would not help keep him in power.  The military intervention came when those had failed, and when Qaddafi's forces were closing in on Benghazi and he was declaring his intention to exterminate them like rats. 

    And my conversations with Arab activists and intellectuals, and my monitoring of Arab media and internet traffic, have convinced me that the intervention was both important and desirable.  The administration understood, better than their critics, that Libya had become a litmus test for American credibility and intentions, with an Arab public riveted to al-Jazeera.  From what I can see, many people broadly sympathetic to Arab interests and concerns are out of step with Arab opinion this time.    In the Arab public sphere, this is not another Iraq -- though, as I've warned repeatedly, it could become one if American troops get involved on the ground and there is an extended, bloody quagmire.  This administration is all too aware of the dangers of mission creep, escalation, and the ticking clock on Arab and international support which so many of us have warned against.  They don't want another Iraq, as Obama made clear.... even if it is not obvious that they can avoid one.

    The centrality of Libya to the Arab narrative about regional transformation is the main reason why I am unmoved by the "double standards" argument that we are not intervening in Cote D'Ivoire.  It did matter more to core U.S. national interests because the outcome would affect the entire Middle East.  Thanks to al-Jazeera's intense focus on Libya, literally the whole Arab world was watching, dictators and publics alike....

    But that was the process to date. In the speech, I saw a man who who has taken all that in and is now much more sure of where he wants this country to go on this and also where he doesn't want it to go.

    Lynch's paragraph about Cote D'Ivoire reminds me of Ricks' "Watch out Saudi Arabia" from that I cited above.


    They don't want another Iraq, as Obama made clear.... even if it is not obvious that they can avoid one.

    This is one part that deeply concerns many here (including me). I'll neither praise nor condemn Obama for his Libyan approach because I really don't know if Obama made the right move here. I'd say that time will tell, but logically that's not even true, as all time will tell is some conflated story about his decision, his strategy, and his luck. I hope that story is a happy one.


    First, the explication of what North Star meant last night is amazing and it's kind of embarassing that more people didn't make that connection.  It's amazing to have a president who can so etxture a speech to the nation.  At least, while developing the Google News search I just linked to, I came across Sarah Palin's take on the "North Star" which was that it's on the Alaska state flag.  So maybe Thomas Ricks is writing a bit above the national discourse.

    As for Lynch, I think he's answering some arguments that people aren't making.  Of course the U.S. isn't invading Libya "to grab its oil."  That's an unfair way to characterize Obama's critics.  Does oil have anything to do with this?  Well, yes.  Libya is a major oil producer and Gadhafi's government is involved in joint ventures with major multinationals from the U.S. and the E.U.  There's no way that Libya's resources and role in world trade haven't garnered this situation more attention than other similar situations in and around Africa.

    But, as Lynch says, that doesn't necessarily matter because Libya became a credibility test for America in the minds of many who live in the region.  These people, for whatever reasons, decided to judge the U.S. by its actions here and not in Bahrain or the Ivory Coast or Darfur or Myanmar.  In a way you can say "but that shouldn't be so," all you want and you can list all of the reasons you want why it shouldn't be so, but it's so.  Which still really irks me because if public opinion is going to guide our foreign policy, I'd prefer a public opinion far more local than "the Arab public sphere."

    Lynch assures us that "They don't want another Iraq, as Obama made clear.... even if it is not obvious that they can avoid one."  I believe that.  But what if most Americans aren't willing to take that risk?  Will Obama draw a line that says "this far and no farther," even if the coalition falls short of its goals?

    Lynch also says, "The administration hasn't done a great job communicating its position, particularly on the question of whether or not Qaddafi's departure is the goal (I personally think it has to be)."  If Lynch is right and that's the goal (because it has to be) than did Obama lie to the public outright?  Did he lie because the public would not support the truth?  Or is Lynch just wrong?

    Of course both Ricks and Lynch, like most pro-intervention foreign policy thinkers, have written about this as if there was an infinite supply of money to support this operation.  That's technically true, but if they believe it, they should also support my idea of having the Federal Reserve just print up the cash to pay off everybody's credit card and student loan bills.


    "...that from here on in, policy on this front is going to be executed to be judged by the history books and not the polls." [G. Bush?]

     Maybe it goes to show how great minds think alike. Maybe goes to show how some of the minds with the same options aren't so great after all. Who knows? Well, no one really, so I guess that is why we would like to have a time machine and see what history [written by the winners] will finally decide. But, we don't.
    Still, that is what our speculative discussion is all about. And maybe you are right, maybe he has come to a decision and will lead America forward along a path he sees as the correct one with a resolute heart and a stiff upper lip. If so, I hope he is right about the path he has chosen. Being a cynic about politics on just about every level that I can fathom, I think he may have decided that he needs to take a firm stand for cynical political reasons which don't necessarily come close to, are even lie parallel with, righteous humanitarian reasons at all. He may well have just finally chosen where we will go so as to be seen a leader and for that he needed to take some hard position and express it with viga. And yet, even if the decision was for less than honorable reasons, it might be the correct decision in, a pragmatic sense. Who can say with any confidence?
     I would be a bit more excited about getting in the time machine and fetching a history book from the future if he hadn't made the All American time-honored decision to loose the dogs of war. It would be interesting to explore a different solution some time. Maybe it will happen some day in a future whose historians haven't even been born yet.
     From your quote below.

    "It did matter more to core U.S. national interests because the outcome would affect the entire Middle East."

    I have speculated enough and asserted my opinion that the core national interest that guided Obama's decision is not a humanitarian concern for citizens of the Middle East so I will not even say the name of that core national interest [oil] just like the person quoted did not.


    "And now that he's made his mind up, he isn't likely to change it."

    I may (for now) agree with you.  With every appointman the man makes, he says more about who he is, and who he considers his base to be.  He recently appointed a psychologist at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib to his 'Enhancing the Psychological Well-Being of The Military Family' task force.

    Cool choice; kinda like Bush giving Bremmer the Medal of Freedom, IMO.  He was the senior psycholog=ist at Gitmo, and has couple ethic complaints against him, alleging:

    "During his tenure at the prison, boys and men were threatened with rape and death for themselves and their family members; sexually, culturally, and religiously humiliated; forced naked; deprived of sleep; subjected to sensory deprivation, over-stimulation, and extreme isolation; short-shackled into stress positions for hours; and physically assaulted. The evidence indicates that abuse of this kind was systemic, that BSCT health professionals played an integral role in its planning and practice. . . .

     Writing in 2009, Law Professor Bill Quigley and Deborah Popowski, a Fellow at the Harvard Law School Human Rights Program, described James' role in this particularly notorious incident:

    In 2003, Louisiana psychologist and retired Col. Larry James watched behind a one-way mirror in a US prison camp while an interrogator and three prison guards wrestled a screaming, near-naked man on the floor.

    The prisoner had been forced into pink women's panties, lipstick and a wig; the men then pinned the prisoner to the floor in an effort "to outfit him with the matching pink nightgown." As he recounts in his memoir, "Fixing Hell," Dr. James initially chose not to respond. He "opened [his] thermos, poured a cup of coffee, and watched the episode play out, hoping it would take a better turn and not wanting to interfere without good reason ..."

    Although he claims to eventually find "good reason" to intervene, the Army colonel never reported the incident or even so much as reprimanded men who had engaged in activities that constituted war crimes."

    Guy got a few awards, maybe a few medals; I forget, it's been a few days since I read his bio page.  But yep; Obama is solidifying who he is, even continuing a corrupt and pointless (no, worse) war in Afghanistan, and keeping 100,000 soldiers and mercenaries in Iraq for some reason.  But at least he's sold on the Libyan intervention.

    http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/25/james/index.html

    Oops--it seems that it's been updated now that Michelle Obama is saying James won't really be there.  Sorry.


    Important point being ignored by many:

    About that Senate vote on Libya, By Sarah Muller, MSNBC, Mar 28, 2011

    It's become the most ignored moment of the Libya story. On March 1, the United States Senate voted unanimously for a resolution calling for a no-fly zone from the United Nations. The Senate is on the record in favor of this action, at least before President Obama actually took action.

    As Lawrence's points out in this clip with Rachel Maddow, that's one of the reasons we're hearing much more vocal opposition coming from the House of Representatives. The MSNBC hosts dissect President Obama's address to the nation on the U.S. military action in Libya.

    I myself didn't know it happened until a couple of days ago.

     


    I myself didn't know it happened until you brought it to my attention. Thanks for educating me yet again.


    Does it at all matter that it was (reportedly) a non-binding resolution?

    "“Senate Passes Resolution Calling for No-Fly Zone Over Libya” By Dan Friedman, National Journal, Tuesday, March 1, 2011 | 9:19 p.m.
    The Senate unanimously approved a nonbinding resolution on Tuesday calling for the United Nations Security Council to impose a no-fly zone over Libya and urged Libyan leader Muammar el-Qaddafi to resign and allow a peaceful transition to democracy.

    The resolution, offered by Sens. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., and Mark Kirk, R-Ill., has no force of law. And its symbolic impact on U.S. posture toward Libya is uncertain. But the resolution puts the full Senate on record behind an aggressive posture and could bolster a growing number of calls for the United States—which has already sent warships carrying hundreds of Marines into the region—or its allies to take limited military steps in support of Libyans seeking to overthrow Qaddafi. Earlier on Tuesday, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told lawmakers that all options to address the Libyan crisis are on the table. …"


    I would argue that what matters is not its binding/non-binding status per se, but that on one hand, it disproves the notion that Congress hadn't voiced support for the action, but on the other hand fell short of a declaration of war.


    Either that or they didn't mean they wanted to do it should the UN get its act together and actually do that, they thought the Federation's Starship Fleet might show up to execute one if that happened? Wink


    I didn't know about this until today either and I'm inclined to believe it means that the "Obama went it alone" narrative is not as simple as has been presented.

    Really, you could only say that the resolution calls on the UN to handle this, not the US.  But that'd be some absurdly untamed cynicism.


    Thanks all of you for weighing in on it; those non-binding things always bug the hell out of, like 'The sense of the Senate' crap, often again, on voice vote.  I forget the rules, frankly; does it only take one Senator to ask for a recorded vote?  Can you even get one on a non-binding thing like this?  Boy; I can't remember.  Maybe it's not worth digging into; some reporter will.  Uh-huh...

    Meanwhile, I'll go with AA's 'the Enterprise is Coming' wish-thinking magic.  I admit I thought that if Obama waited long enough, it would be over myself. 


    AA, Flavius, Ilks and others: DemocracyNow! has a debate up on Libya between Juan Cole and Vijat Prashad, chair of South Asian History and professor of international studies at Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut.

    Don't have time to se if it's on Youtube yet, but here at is at DN!.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2011/3/29/a_debate_on_us_military_intervention


    Thanks. I've watched it.

    Naturally since  in general I agreed with Juan's conclusions it's unable for me to be objective. which certainly contributes to my preferring Juan's position on one of the two key exchanges..

    Amy , in effect , asked them whether Obama really had to act a week ago to forestall a massacre in Benghazi.

    Prashad  said : Maybe yes,maybe no.Perhaps the occupiers  would have behaved.

    But then switched to his regret the Egyptian's  hadn't provided  an escape route for the rebels. I won't unfairly  turn  his humanitarian suggestion against him.Scheduling life boat drill doesn't mean you're fixing to tangle with an ice berg..

     But perhaps it's  legitimate  to suggest that while he felt there was a good chance of a benevolent occupation it made sense to have an escape route.

    Juan said : Yes.

     I prefer that answer.

    The other key exchange was whether the US involvement was benevolent or self serving.I'd score that a draw.,Or maybe a 33 inning endurence test between the Pawsox and their  minor league opponent. Great lineups. Wade Boggs for Pawtucket, Cal Ripken, Jr  for the other guys.Wonder if they both played 33 innings..I'll bet Ripken did. 


    Prashad  said : Maybe yes,maybe no.Perhaps the occupiers  would have behaved.

    It's interesting, I get the sense from reading the more "breaking" news that we may be about to see some proof of that one way or another.

    Here's rebels in Misrata telling AFP that they fear the coalition won't hit tanks already in Misrata, because of the possibility of civilian casualties, and that the Gaddafi tanks are indiscriminately shelling inside the city. Here's a CNN "witness" report of "carnage" in Misrata  from this morning and that the coalition is holding back from striking tanks within the city:

    Libyan government tanks were shelling civilian areas in Misrata Tuesday and government forces were using heavy artillery as well, bringing "absolute and utter carnage" to the city, a witness told CNN. Government forces were also evicting thousands of residents and looting their homes, according to the source with the Libyan opposition. Rebels were using schools and mosques to accommodate the evicted, he said. Things are getting so much worse" in the city, he said.

    Coalition planes circled overhead but did not strike the tanks, he said. In an interview with CNN, he pleaded for coalition forces to take action and stop the government troops.

    On CNN TV just a while ago, they showed a video purported to be of tanks moving in Misrata.

    Here's what the coalition is proud to admit they are doing as regards Misrata: hitting an ammo dump outside Misrata and firing on Gaddafi ships on the water near Misrata.

    Now the Misrata rebel reports to media might be an organized propaganda campaign to try to press the coalition to do more, but I don't see any agenda possible other than that, as It would be better for them for morale purposes to say things are going swimmingly rather than expressing fears.

    Seems like Gaddafi plans to continue to fight back in civilian areas, civilians included, precisely because he sess the coalition won't go there and that whatever heavy armor he already has within populated areas is safe? Some Tripoli reports seem to suggest the same problem is going to rear its head there.


    Gaddafi will watch CNN and exploit whatever limits there are to the allied/UN resolution, etc.

    The wishful thinking that bombing will bring regime change is just wishful.

    Even to stop civilian atrocities is questionable.

    That's why I found all the formulations for intervention rather weak. We've seen this many times before, such as when Milosevic responded to bombings by sending Albanian civilians packing for the borders. "Oh no, we didn't expect him to do that".  Well do some expecting before you bomb then.


    In Officer Candidate School they'd shout at you/me:

    "Do something even if it's wrong".

    But another view is Gilbert& Sullivan's

    The House of Lords,Throughout the War . Did nothing in part i cu lar,   And did it very well.

    The only rule is, there is no rule.


    I assume the "do something" included "with a plan, even if it's a poor plan". Even if the plan's "Hail Mary Full of Grace", at least you'll have an idea why you succeeded or failed.


    I don't actually know what was intended,. Just guessing the army was concerned about officers torn between alternatives who as a result do nothing.  


    Thanks, I read the transcript they have available now there.


    Latest Comments