MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
By Amy Goldstein, Washington Post, Feb. 7, 2014
The Obama administration has quietly reworked rules and computer code for HealthCare.gov to try to stem an outpouring of discontent by some Americans who have discovered that the health plans they bought do not include their old doctors or allow them to add new babies or spouses.
Under changes that have not been disclosed to the public, the government will temporarily allow consumers who have gotten coverage through the new online insurance marketplace to switch health plans to a limited degree.
In a memo distributed Thursday night to insurers, federal health officials said that people may pick a different health plan before the end of March if they are dissatisfied with the one they chose, but only if they stay with the same insurer and generally the same level of coverage. The 14-page memo, obtained by The Washington Post, also says people will be given more freedom and a longer opportunity to get a new health plan if they can prove that HealthCare.gov, the Web site for the new marketplace, displayed inaccurate information about the benefits that a health plan offers.
In addition, HealthCare.gov now has a “Report a Life Change” button, the memo says, enabling people to tinker with their plans if they have added members to their family, moved, gotten out of prison, or undergone other changes that affect the insurance they want. Even as the improvement was being announced to insurers, this aspect of the computer system still is not working reliably, [....]
Comments
by artappraiser on Mon, 02/10/2014 - 4:40pm
by artappraiser on Tue, 02/25/2014 - 7:02pm
Good article...
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/25/2014 - 9:17pm
by artappraiser on Mon, 02/10/2014 - 4:46pm
by artappraiser on Mon, 02/10/2014 - 5:05pm
I know all about the heart warming stories of people finding happiness on the exchanges and the subsidies thereupon, but the irony in retrospect is that the only true legacy of that limp-dicked poor excuse for a progressive president will be the medicaid expansion or, wait for it, the single payer public option component that survived the bait and switch that was run when the broader coverage plans were being vetted.
Edit to add: admitedly self-defeating, but I love watching that no good back stabber stammer his way through the unwinding of the Rube Goldberg Heritage Foundation scam that he tried to run on the Repugnants, foolishly thinkig they had any kind of intellectual honesty that could survive their horror at his brown face.
by jollyroger on Mon, 02/10/2014 - 5:56pm
Wouldn't that lying scumbag rather he had kept his campaign promise.? How much less painful would his current tap dance have been, if he were defending a public option instead of serially backpedalling on Heritage Foundation mandated atrocities.
by jollyroger on Mon, 02/10/2014 - 6:07pm
Jolly is it a possibility that Obama first wanted to get every last dime of taxes they could get, from the working class. Rather than Medicare for all first?
The government needed the enhanced financing mechanism in place.
What is the penalty, if when signing up for the ACA you don't report ALL income?
Citizens will no longer pay each other in cash for services or products, Uncle Sam wants his Tax.
I wouldn't be surprised, if every time the new $100.00 bills (with all the hidden features) are circulated, they are being tracked.
Serial # 123456789 has reportedly been deposited by XYZ; where did that bill originate. Did XYZ report it? Did XYZ get a subsidy?
Hey baby sitter, brother, etc......you better report I paid you cash under the table because, Uncle Sam now knows, who's naughty or nice.
Maybe it's the right way to go, to let the government into peoples private affairs?
If you want healthcare, then give up your privacy rights first?
by Resistance on Mon, 02/10/2014 - 7:36pm
Well, I am smooth guilty of believing in the eleventy dimensional chess player, and, in fact, I truly believed (because I listen to Rush Limbaugh for comfort...) that the plan was to bring on medicare for all once the camel had it's nose under the tent. Hah!.
As for the motivation on Obama's part to even make a run at this problem, fuck if I can unravel it now...there are a lot simpler ways to juice up the efficiency of the tax system if that is the ultimate goal. I think he really wanted to at least find a way to leverage government impact on the costs of health care overall, if only because on a simple practical basis the current burden on our business is bad for business, and he is, let's not be self deluded, a business guy first.
If it were only about health care, though, I still think the simplest and least politically risky move would be a simple extension of VA access, leaving everything else in place as is. That alone would have saved a fortune on Medicare, and Medicaid, and little by little the weight of a competing system delivering at half the price of anything else would have crushed the private carriers and turned the whole ship around.
Simple free market competition. No mandates, no enforcement. I guess his complete refusal even to contemplate what has been called (No, I'm not the only one....)VA for all, (in contrast to Medicare for all) is the "tell".
BTW, what makes you think theres no RFID chip in the hundreds already? As for barter, et al, there are the same tax fraud penalties already as obtain for under reporting after the ACA, and assuming that said underreporting gets you an undeserved subsidy.
I can't actually speak to the issue (because those fools have my 19 year old ass on Medicare and I'm not about to disabuse them...) of the subsidies, but I have heard from the better informed (AA, white courtesy phone please....) that they really are a pittance.
by jollyroger on Mon, 02/10/2014 - 8:34pm
Courtesy phone response. I ain't no expert. So cavaet emptor. From what I have read and seen, the subsidies for premiums for those up to like 200% of poverty level are quite generous. That's money that goes straight to insurance companies, BTW. After that, they start to get penurious. But that's not where the cost problem is. The devil is not in the premiums, the devil is in the very high deductibles of the plans (especially the bronze plans, targeted to the lower income, who can least afford high deductibles, ) and co-pays and other hidden tricks, and when and how those deductibles and the co-pays apply. And also how limited provider networks in a majority of the plans, will mean people who do not make sure to follow the insurance company's rules like a hawk, will be billed for uncovered services that they had no idea weren't covered.
Especially for those of lower income levels and for those who are new to using health insurance.
There is also the issue of those with irregular income. Subsidy or not becomes a nightmare there.
There are also issues about coverage geographically. Problems with like, college students on their parents' plans that require seeing providers in their parents faraway geographic area.
There is also the issue of underground economy people who have not filed tax forms. They can't buy. For that reason, I suspect that they we will end up with many more uninsured still in the population than they had planned. (In that case, Resistance may be right to suspect a tax collection scheme. Either that or planners just plain believe there is no underground economy and that everyone has a regular salaried job. All I know is that many people will be afraid to apply, even people that could and would pay premiums and costs. Silly me, I thought the idea was to get lots of people with iffy financial situations insured, so that we all wouldn't be paying for their emergency room bills.)
It's beyond me why went with this system of direct subsidy to the insurance cos, which requires applicants to be fully documented tax filers to even buy, and to have regular pay for the subsidies to work without extreme complications. Instead of letting people claim the credit or deduction on their taxes if they chose, or not, like we have with earned income credit or almost any other subsidy.
by artappraiser on Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:54pm
The truly funny part of "the most transparant administration in history (!) is how offended Obama and the Bots (there's a K-Pop group for you) pretend to be every time they're caught, and this from a guy who BRAGGED about how he deliberately encouraged varied constituencies with clearly incompatible aspirations to "project" on him what they wanted.
Studied ambiguity, the post-modern presidential campaign. Actually, Bill Clinton put his finger on it--I forget the exact wording but it was something about a mirage, or a fairy tale. I'll try and retrieve the exact words.
by jollyroger on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 12:36am
Clinton, Jan. 8, 2008: It is wrong that Senator Obama got to go through 15 debates trumpeting his superior judgment and how he had been against the war in every year, enumerating the years, and never got asked one time, not once, well, how could you say that when you said in 2004 you didn’t know how you would have voted on the resolution, you said in 2004 there was no difference between you and George Bush on the war. And you took that speech you’re now running on off your website in 2004. And there’s no difference in your voting record and Hillary’s ever since. Give me a break. This whole thing is the biggest fairy tale I’ve ever seen.
by jollyroger on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 12:38am
Doesn't it just make you sick, people fell for this man with no experience. Puppet.
Two bad Presidents in a row, takes it's toll.
by Resistance on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 1:14am
People? People???PEOPLE??? Fuck People, I fell for him!
by jollyroger on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 1:32am
Maybe it's just me...
But if you're a crusader AGAINST "studied ambiguity" and a well-oiled ability to duck and dive, pump and fake, and parse the meaning of "is," etc., etc.,
And not get any health care reform except something for kids...
I'm not sure you want WJC in your foxhole. You might find yourself the victim of "friendly fire" with an excuse for a benediction: "Jolly? That's a name? I thought he said 'friendly.' What's the difference anyways?"
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 2:07pm
....deliberately encouraged varied constituencies with clearly incompatible aspirations to "project" on him what they wanted. Studied ambiguity, the post-modern presidential campaign....
Good stuff.
How about this:
by artappraiser on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 1:32am
The reason is obvious.
Do you want to wait until the end of year to get your tax refund or tax credit?
Or do you want to get the economic benefit immediately in the form of a lower premium that you pay now?
It's the difference between a store rebate that you have to send in or enter online and then wait for the card to come to you in the mail...
And one that gives you a reduction in the price at the register that you don't have to do anything to get.
Retailers often prefer the former because they get the power of the rebate to lure fence-sitting customers into buying their product...
But then, many customers lose their receipt or just don't bother to apply for the rebate and the retailer gets to keep that money.
Going back to insurance...
Either way, however, folks have to be "fully documented tax filers" to get the benefit. You're right, of course, someone could choose not to claim the credit or refund and pay the higher premium...just as many Best Buy buyers don't apply for their rebate... but why, oh, why would anyone want to do that?
I grant you, there's bureaucratic simplicity in the suggestion, but the economic benefit for the person goes the other way...
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 2:34pm
The worst non-smokers are ex-smokers.
Are you saying here that those stories aren't true? Or what?
Seems to me all those stories are true. A friend of mine is saving $800 a month on private insurance because of ole limp dick. But maybe she's the only one.
When I went shopping here in VA, it was easy to find a plan that was much better than the one I had the last time I was in the private market.
Same premium, but a reduction of deductible from $5,000 to $0...all thanks to ole limp dick. Had I chosen instead a much lower premium, perhaps a third of what I had paid back in 2002, I would've had a deductible that was just about $5,000.
Can't keep your doctor? Boo, fucking, hoo. How many times do Americans move to a new city? Do you think they "keep their same doctor" when they do? Is it that much of a hardship to find a new doctor? From all the hand-wringing, one would think this was just one hardship too much to bear.
I've NEVER had a doctor in-network. Finally, in 2013, I gave up paying my doctor out of pocket and looked for one in-network. Is there a difference between the two? Sure. The new one is cuter.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 1:29pm
Returning to the ORIGINAL subject . . .
Is this a BIG BIG BIG problem? Or is this just something that sells hits for the commercial nature of the media interests covering it?
Until further notice, this unfortunately is the system we have. It's not the system I wished for.
Here's the system that I support. But, being an old bird I won't see it my lifetime.
And here's a little truth in advertising. We have been Kaiser HMO members for 40+ years with the same primary care doctor for 20 of those years. Oh horrors, I know, socialized medicine but we're alive and fortunately very healthy. My primary coverage is Medicare with the secondary coverage being Kaiser Senior Advantage. I am also covered with Veterans Administration although I do not need that except for the no-copays on meds and dental coverage.
Planning for old age has done us good!
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:58pm
Despite what some may think, I'm not into looking for "problems," I'm looking for news about whas really happenin' with Obamacare, good, bad or indifferent.
I do have one strong opinion after doing that for some time now: that I and others can't readily grasp it without continually reading many news articles over months is not a good thing.
The whole thing (not just the website) was rolled out not ready for primetime. With the people who have a need to sign up now being the guinea pigs. I am very disappointed by that. Silly me, I thought it was more important to the people behind it that whatever they rolled out worked extremely well from the start, that they had prepared for almost all eventualities. So that it would be hard not to laud it, and easy to defend any attacks. They could have made it smaller and slower. That's not what went on. That appears to be what's going on now, though. They appear to be making adjustments now that they should have done before: make it smaller and slower than what they planned, because they see the possible glitches that are there because it was rushed. For political reasons: what will help vulnerable Dems in the fall elections.
by artappraiser on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 12:01am
Good grief. What sort of Brigadoon do you live in?
There are ALMOST NO large programs in the private or public sector that meet this criteria. And when you take into consideration the hybrid--public/private--nature of this new system in which, being private entities, insurance companies are still allowed to act as they will, albeit within different parameters, it is doubly complex.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 1:35pm
Wake me up when THAT happens.
Until then, I'll be thinking based on what I'm reading.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 2:10pm
Oh, and to return very specifically to the original subject, there is a reason I used bold for this phrase in the first article: changes that have not been disclosed to the public.
The lack of transparency about some of the changes they are making, apparently for political reasons, sickens me. Especially for an administration that promised transparency uber alles. It's like they have this attitude: "if you bitch enough, maybe we'll do something, but if you're stupid, we'd rather you stay a sucker and just be grateful you're seeing any doctor at all."
by artappraiser on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 12:16am
Please... Don't puke on yourself . . .
So we're working off a preliminary internal memo here?
Found near the end of the article:
I expect CMS to fully make the public aware once they have the nuts and bolts worked out on this specific mess...
Believe it if you need it...
Leave it if you don't.
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 2:54am
The 14-page memo, obtained by The Washington Post, also says people will be given more freedom and a longer opportunity to get a new health plan if they can prove that HealthCare.gov, the Web site for the new marketplace, displayed inaccurate information about the benefits that a health plan offers.
What a bunch of tone deaf morons....when you have fucked up and are scrambling to make amends, you don't put conditions on someone seeking redress!
by jollyroger on Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:30pm
I can't think of a "fix" they have implemented so far that when I have checked it out in further detail, it has tons of ifs, buts and maybes, and sounds like you will be arguing with government representatives for a very long time...and scanning email attachments or faxing lots of stuff...which will then get lost....
Edit to add: the big "if and or but" in this case appears to be a doozy: that if they decide to you can switch plans, you have to chose one with the same insurance co. and at the same level!? (According to the news article; admit I haven't read all 17 pages.) Chances are close to nil that doing that will get you a much different set of providers! I don't even get why they are bothering, it's going to mollify so few.
by artappraiser on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 1:11am
They're making it up as they go. Instead of improving what they had already in Medicare.
Waste of time, money and political capital, while they failed to focus on the more important things. They took our eyes off the prize, after the winning the election.
Healthcare the Trojan Horse?
It makes me wonder, if the plan is for the republicans to get control, trampling what's left of the progressive movement.
Edited to add, those who are really in control don't care if the Republicans take the blame for obstruction, and Obama playing his role, can blame them too " Oh you bad republicans" The plan by the real powerful, is that their plans to crush the opposition of corporate power once and for all, are realized.
Blame anybody you want, but the spoils go to the victor.
by Resistance on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 1:36am
I'm surprised you've missed AA's posts on how Medicare For All would be a disaster. The system would simply give out from the press of all the new patients scrambling for limited resources, e.g., doctors, hospital beds, drugs, money. Prices would go through the roof, and even though you were a well-heeled Carpenter instead of a mere carpenter, your health care needs would go begging.
Good recruiting tool for Christian Science.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 1:56pm
Hey Jolly... How would each party know the facts?
Some type of conditions must exist to simply find out IF the individual seeking redress is simply mistaken of what they thought their policy did or did not cover.
That has to be established first.
IF they have mistakenly read their policy as NOT including their old doctors, yet upon further communication it is found that in fact the policy DOES include their old doctors. Why should they change policies?
The same holds true IF they mistakenly think their policy does NOT include adding new babies or spouses, and in fact the policy DOES include allowing them to add new babies or spouses. Why should they change policies?
Why change policies if it's a simple misunderstanding on behalf of the policy holder?
On the other hand, if it is deemed a true problem exists then it can be rectified by allowing the policy holder to change policies.
Down in the original article... Did you even bother to read the article?
Your mileage may vary... And I'm sure it does.
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 2:46am
I'm afraid that my fundamentally rebellious anti-bureaucratic nature has gotten the better of any sort of granular dcconstruction similar to your trenchant analysis. In other words, if I were in charge, I would simply give everyone a blanket pass--ie, if you signed up for anything, you can change to anything else for another, I don't know, three months. Fuck, six months, whatever's right.
Of course, the careful parsing undertaken by CMS shows who the real clients of this whole program have been all along--the carriers, who must under no circumstances be inconvenienced or otherwise impeded in their pursut of profit. Here endeth the lesson.
by jollyroger on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 12:16pm
by Resistance on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 7:24pm
Here . . . Try this one.
This better suits your type of deep input in discussion such as this one.
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 10:32pm
How cute, did you get the idea from one of your coloring books?
by Resistance on Wed, 02/12/2014 - 12:06am
Rah! Rah! Sis-Boom-Bah!
Aw... come on now... If you're going to be a cheerleader you might as well have a better graphic than a cheap thumbs up.
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Wed, 02/12/2014 - 3:18am
Well, I, for one, am vastly relieved to learn that what I initially took to be severed heads (of raggedy Andys ) were, in fact, pom-poms....carry on.
by jollyroger on Wed, 02/12/2014 - 3:47am
Jolly, you were right on the money.
Government of the Profiteers or the Government of the victims of the profiteers?
We're here to give you a hand
Carriers
by Resistance on Wed, 02/12/2014 - 6:33am
The other day you mentioned circling sharks. You like that Graphic I replied to Jolly with?
by Resistance on Wed, 02/12/2014 - 6:40am
As I said . . .
Your mileage may vary... But now I see, undoubtedly it does.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah... Just go tell that cerebral line of rebellious twaddle to some mom and dad living on a two person income who just qualified for MediCal with four children, one of whom is seriously ill with pneumonia and is bedded down at LA County. I'm sure they give a big whoop!
Here endeth MY lesson.
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 10:27pm
Now, WAAIIT, jus' a minute, ducky. I am firmly on record as valuing the expansion of medicaid, and I only wish it had gone further
by jollyroger on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 10:41pm
Here's the thing, JR.
The very instant you have a program or an organization serving a lot of people you have "bureaucracy." Private or public, it doesn't matter.
With bureaucracy come rules. And, in fact, you WANT rules; otherwise, bureaucrats really get to do whatever they feel like doing that day to a guy with the temerity to call himself "jolly."
"Let's see how long this Jolly stays jolly..."
Of course, this happens anyway. Which is one reason you get work. But giving people blanket passes is one sure way to generate new news stories that will sink your ship for good as the deserving get trampled by the scalawags on the way to the trough or as it turns out there were very few deserving in the first place.
Yes, it is a hybrid system. Insurers remain private. Doctors and hospitals remain private. When did you learn this? Just now? Did you need an AA post to find this out? Obamacare is a bit like the government forcing car companies to put in catalytic converters and oil producers to stop selling leaded gasoline. It doesn't tell Ford that it has to start making all-electric cars (though it comes close in some ways).
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 1:46pm
I fear that, (not for the first time), I have been unclear.
My criticisms of the conditionality imposed upon the prospective relaxation of choice deadlines was framed not vis-a-vis policy, to which your remarks would seem directed, but to the political abyss from which the administration is attempting to climb, viz, the unfortunate consequences of the imprudently issued diktat "If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor", which in retrospect would certainly seem to embrace far too many unpredictable and unforeseen consequences of the ACA to have been made for any but political reasons.
O/T--you misconstrue ( perhaps for purposes of irony...) the name which I have used for my online presence.
My given name, as I have elsewhere mentioned, is Roger. The unitary *Jollyroger is not meant to be separated, into a formulation emphasizing my amiable nature, but as a nod to my former profession as a trial attorney, with particular reference to the guild pennant:
*Shortened, oddly, to "Jolly" as opposed to "Roger" by many here present, although not all.
by jollyroger on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 6:00pm
NO offense meant in my use of your name. If any was received, I apologize. Just having a little fun whilst trying to make my point.
Over the years, much merriment has been made of my name, Peter, so perhaps I've become inured to the potential discomfort this kind of joking around can cause.
FWIW, I always assumed your name was Roger, but Jolly always seemed more fun, and you always seemed to have a good sense of humor.
Back in the day, when I was working as a waiter, there was one shift they called "liver rounds." Every other Friday, the hospital across the street descended upon us for happy hour, and the name came from the fact that cirrhosis turns the liver round-ish.
And indeed, round after round was ordered by oncology nurses, thoracic surgeons, administrators as they tried to wash away the stress of the weak. All the levels blended; job distinctions faded away and things got quite jolly.
Except...sometimes not. Sometimes things didn't go well, and the alcohol only helped speed the hand basket toward hell that much faster. As the waiter and the source of this elixir, I was a popular guy, and they paid me to be popular. But when things were going badly for someone, I was an easy target.
Such was the case one Friday when I gave an administrator--a man named Richard-- his bill. He wasn't happy. He wasn't happy about whatever it was that was making him unhappy, and having to pay a fat bill for the table where he was playing big shot made him even unhappier.
He looked up at me and fixed me with a twisted grimace and said, "You know, you look like a peter." I looked down at him and, for some reason only known to Him, God lighted upon my shoulder, and said through me to him, "That's funny. You look like a dick." He paid the bill.
It was probably a mistake to say you could keep your plan and your doctor if you liked them. But you have to admit that having to explain how and why and when you might not be able to keep those things would have been a communications nightmare. It could not have been done without introducing devastating uncertainty because, for one thing, NO ONE at that time could have told you whether you would be able to keep your doctor/policy or not.
As Dean Baker has pointed out, this is NOT a government takeover of insurance or health care. The government could dictate some things, but not every thing. The Feds can tell Ford they must equip all their vehicles with catalytic converters, but they can't force them to make SUVs or trucks or compacts.
But--and here is where conservatives who believe in self-responsibility should actually TAKE self-responsibility--once it became clear that there were certain policies that wouldn't measure up--and the well-known existence of these deficient policies was one of the key reasons for passing the ACA in the first place, d'oh--then any thinking person should have known that some policies were going to go bye-bye, even if some of their policyholders "liked" them. Leaded gasoline also went bye-bye, and I'm sure many people liked it, too.
Same goes for doctors. The ACA never proposed to force any doctor or hospital to take any particular insurance policy. This has always been a decision between the parties, AFAIK. Nor could anyone tell IN ADVANCE what any of these players would do or whether any such actions could be reversed by introducing new incentives.
The insurance companies are free, as they've always been, to discontinue insurance programs. They are free to narrow their formularies and participation lists. Doctors are free not to take insurance.
My broader point would be this: There is no clear distinction between politics and policy, and they often aren't congruent. If you don't master the politics, you won't get the policy, and sometimes, the two are pulling in different directions. This is reality in our system, IMO. Given how heavily and irrationally the plan was under attack from the GOP, it would've been stupid to have suggested that some people (who???) were not going to able to keep certain policies (which ones???) and certain doctors (not mine I hope!!!). Imagine the viral typhoon of rumors that would've set off. Think Orson Welles radio broadcast.
AA decries how awful it is the WH is making these political moves. But it wasn't long ago she was singing Clinton's praises for telling Obama to honor his promise to let people keep the policies they liked. But this wasn't a piece of policy advice he was giving Obama; it was political advice. In fact, my link on that point tried to show that many very knowledgeable health policy people thought it was a BAD move as policy. Obama was reluctant to do it because he, too, knew it was bad policy. However, it may have been the right political move to get the policy.
So maybe there was a better political move he could've made that wouldn't have forced him to do the walk-back so heavily later. I can buy that. What could it have been?
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 7:53pm
Who could object to being Jolly? I just take every opportunity to let my freak flag fly...
But to the merits of the issue at hand
I always thought (cause I take my comfort from Limbaugh and Hannity...) that the whole ACA dance with Max Baucus and friends was just a charade to cover medicare for all...which has significant problems as you say, but still seemed an easier political sell and with sufficient changes allowing more aggressive government cost cutting negotiations might take us, say, 25% (number pulled from my research department-my ass-not meant to have actual numerative significance...) of the way towards true health care reform (as opposed to phony health insurance reform..)
What I continue to think would have gone way further to solve both problems (lousy expensive insurance and lousy expensive care) would have been to expand the VA system through direct sale of access, with subsidies for those whose incomes were low. Basically rolling medicaid and the exchanges into VA for all.
The cost savings would be enormous, the care vastly better than almost all private delivery models (based on actual outcome analysis).
Also,m perhaps not as heavy a political lift as the ACA, which so exhausted all Obama political capital that the issues of ecnomic recovery really received short shrift.
I don't know if it really could have been done through executive order (tho who would have standing to sue to block the same?) but it would , I thihk, have been passable via reconciliation just as the ACA eventually was.
by jollyroger on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 8:27pm
We can know that at least this much is possible.
http://coreyrobin.com/2014/02/13/death-and-taxes/
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 02/14/2014 - 12:09pm
Well, sure, but who wants to be like You-Rupp? me, me, hey, over here, I do....
by jollyroger on Fri, 02/14/2014 - 12:35pm
I'd die alone, bankrupt, and in pain to avoid socialized medical care. Think not what a system can do for you but what you can do for the system. I heard it in a love song.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 02/14/2014 - 3:03pm
Render my fat to grease the wheels of industry, part me out to provide kidneys for the rich, I just want to know that I was a maker, not a taker, when I go....
by jollyroger on Fri, 02/14/2014 - 3:19pm
I have thought since much of what you say now.
Particularly the political sell.
Though it isn't really that hard, no one claims to know what ACA is all about. It didn't help that the GOP threw as much mud in the water as they possibly could, but still...
But EVERYONE knows and loves Medicare. They've been on it. Their parents and grandparents have all loved it. They get what it is...instantly.
So all Obama had to do was say: My plan for health care reform is...AmeriCare. Medicare for everyone in America. America Cares. If it's good enough for our beloved seniors, it's good enough for the rest of us, too.
Everyone would have gotten it in an instant. Everyone's taxes would've gone up some, but maybe the cost per patient would've gone down.
(VA for All could also have worked with the advantage of adding extra hospitals to the mix. Though we wouldn't have wanted to gum up the works for wounded military...maybe.)
Of course, this would have been much closer to the dreaded "government takeover" of health care, but the charge would've been blunted by its opponents not having an ally in an unknown system onto which theyt could project all of America's worse fears and nightmares. We didn't know what the PPACA was, but we all knew what Medicare was, and the bad guys couldn't have pulled the wool over our eyes so easily.
Of course, there ARE challenges with Medicare for all...just ask AA to repost some of what she's found. Personally, I don't care, because there are ALWAYS problems with any big change, and most of those problems aren't all that easy to see or avoid ahead of time. And the GOP has proven itself to be creative and without a scintilla of shame in lying about whatever it opposes which is whatever Obama proposes.
"We don't know what he has to say,
It makes no difference anyway,
Whatever it is, we're against it.
And even when he's changed it
Or condensed it, we're against it."
http://youtu.be/DtMV44yoXZ0
ACA was a Republican idea, so it was easy to imagine its garnering broad support, making it easier to pass. It had already been implemented--by a Republican--and was working well. You can even watch Jim DeMint on YouTube singing Romney's praises back in 2007 or 08 for the way the plan was working in MA. So even though everyone claims not to get it, it's a bit of a weird claim because there's a live, living breathing example of it working pretty well in one of our states. Medicare or VA For All, by contrast, had NOT been tried anywhere in these here United States.
Also, arguably, replacing the private health insurance industry with a public one would have put a lot of people out of work in Hartford and elsewhere. One could easily see it decimating a very large industry. I know you shed not a tear for this rogue's gallery of greedsters, but a lot of ordinary folk make their living pushing paper inside their walls. If you're president in the middle of a deep recession, do you want to be known as the guy who killed off one of our biggest and most successful industries? Easy for a pirate to say--and maybe worth doing--but not for a president of all the people.
by Peter Schwartz on Fri, 02/14/2014 - 4:40pm
A lot to work through, but for a preliminary pass:
Recall that the proposed "VA friends and family" program enrollment would have been voluntary, so that any (hoped for )dwindling of the job base in Hartford would have been gradual, as customers migrated over time to the newly opened system.
That said, the enlarged VA system would also have needed clerks, if perhaps not actuaries and adjusters--the adjusters, after all, create value by denying care, which may not be the most socially redeeming way to make ones living and perhaps we are better off if they start driving cabs instead.
Obviously a great number of additional medical personnel would have to be trained and hired. One point--I made the acquaintance while recovering from my broken neck, of a nurse who had been a head nurse in some midwest VA hospital, I forget which. She was pulling $100,000/yr. The chief Gastro Intenstinal resident MD, was making $250,000 (no one's idea of penury). However, in a non government hospital the same slot gets $750,000 which may go a long way towards explaining why we pay roughly double the percentage of GDP for health care of other advanced countries. Bear in mind that the hospital paying the $750,000 is more likely to kill you during your stay there than the one paying $250,000. (Demonstrating the efficiency of the private sector vs. the public sector.)
Cuba, by comparison, where the infant mortality stats put us to shame, pays their doctors about 1.5 times the average salary of a bus driver, and yet has 6.7 MDs /1000 people, roughly three times more than our 2.4 MDs per 1000 people
This tells us that we need to train more doctors, and that we can attract highly qualified candidates to that profession without promising them entry into the "one percent".
by jollyroger on Fri, 02/14/2014 - 5:26pm
JR: Recall that the proposed "VA friends and family" program enrollment would have been voluntary, so that any (hoped for )dwindling of the job base in Hartford would have been gradual, as customers migrated over time to the newly opened system.
PS: Yes, but you're talking about the difference between having to shell out 500 a month for your policy, or for your share of your employer's plan, versus...free. Not free, really, but invisible because you'd pay a tiny amount or a bit more in taxes. In short, the spirit of 1848 or pretty close thereto wouldn't be impossible.
JR: That said, the enlarged VA system would also have needed clerks, if perhaps not actuaries and adjusters--the adjusters, after all, create value by denying care, which may not be the most socially redeeming way to make ones living and perhaps we are better off if they start driving cabs instead.
PS: No such luck, Jolly. Here's a list of the kinds of professionals who work at CMS. http://www.cms.gov/About-CMS/Career-Information/CareersatCMS/Positions.html
In any event, this isn't the point. People would be losing their jobs. During a recession. The right has already gone to town over non-existent ACA- caused job losses. This would be the real thing. It might be nice to kill all the lawyers while we were at it, but lawyers are people, too.
JR: Obviously a great number of additional medical personnel would have to be trained and hired.
PS: This needs to happen now anyway with all the new people coming into the system and boomers getting old and sick. How one effectuates this is a challenge which would not necessarily be addressed by going the VA way. And people trained to be insurance paper pushes don't just jump over to becoming nurses. If you don't like Obama's recovery taking 5. whole. years. then wait for how long it takes to retrain clerks to become tech assistants (assuming, of course, they want to become tech assistants).
JK: One point--I made the acquaintance while recovering from my broken neck, of a nurse who had been a head nurse in some midwest VA hospital, I forget which. She was pulling $100,000/yr. The chief Gastro Intenstinal resident MD, was making $250,000 (no one's idea of penury). However, in a non government hospital the same slot gets $750,000 which may go a long way towards explaining why we pay roughly double the percentage of GDP for health care of other advanced countries. Bear in mind that the hospital paying the $750,000 is more likely to kill you during your stay there than the one paying $250,000. (Demonstrating the efficiency of the private sector vs. the public sector.)
PS: Klein made the point that in all those countries where costs are lower, they are lower because the government makes them lower. Actually, some of that is in the ACA already.
JK: Cuba, by comparison, where the infant mortality stats put us to shame, pays their doctors about 1.5 times the average salary of a bus driver, and yet has 6.7 MDs /1000 people, roughly three times more than our 2.4 MDs per 1000 people.
PS: Then why did Desi Arnaz come to America?
JK: This tells us that we need to train more doctors, and that we can attract highly qualified candidates to that profession without promising them entry into the "one percent".
PS: I can support this. 100%.
Just one cautionary note about the VA. I'm no expert, but I've heard different things, not all of them flattering. You know the phrase: Good Enough For Government Work? One conservative I know suggested that the uninsured could be served by the VA. The implication was that this was not the kind of care he wanted or would buy if he had the money to buy the best--but good enough for the indigent.
I know some people LOVE the VA, so I'm not slagging them--just raising a flag.
I would also be cautious about proposing to place a lot of extra burden that is already stretched thin trying to serve the military. If you're a politician, you don't want people saying that you're dumping a bunch of slackers into a system that can't even handle the people who've risked their lives for our liberties. You don't want that perception, and you don't want that reality.
Not sure why you like VA over Medicare. The latter seems less fraught with potential minefields.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/15/2014 - 6:19pm
Last question first. Cost.
Also, do a little more research, (skimp on the anecdotes and go to the outcome studies.)
VA does way better than any availale competition.
As a subsection of "cost" what makes you think that the permiums currently paid by employers would not simply migrate to the now open VA, where there are no deductibles and very modest co-pays?. I never specified that the friends and families would pay out of their own pocket.
Edit to add: Con respetto, the other objections you make about jobs and such, are really red herrings which don't deserve serous attention when the future of health policy and the impact of a grossly outsized drain on gdp is the result of the present system. YMMV, as they say. The one aspect which you don't address is really the weakest--I was entranced with the possiblity of bypassing congress, but as a current examination of the Georgia judiciary shows us, the guy in charge is a corporatist asshole, so,what the fuck.
by jollyroger on Sat, 02/15/2014 - 7:27pm
Sometimes the thread gets thin with these discussions, and I find it hard to follow.
Did EYE raise a cost issue? Point it out to me, seriously.
As to outcomes, I admit to a lack of anything more than anecdote, and don't necessarily trust it. I brought it up as a caveat only.
"As a subsection of cost..." I honestly don't see your point here or how it responds to anything I said. Not being argumentative here; perhaps I wasn't so clear in what I was saying. Just can't make this out.
The question about jobs addresses the issue of whether a president, any president, would purposely kill off jobs in a recession. I do think you're being a bit cavalier with other people's livelihoods, and far from wealthy people at that, but this is Fantasy Government we're playing here anyway.
On the big picture, the GDP, you're absolutely right. And so, if the VA solution were workable, we'd need a gradual migration there. Given how much cheaper--maybe this is the cost angle you mention?--the VA would be for individuals and companies, I don't see it happening gradually (as you predicted) naturally. I see lots of people rushing toward it. Though who knows?
(Remember this moment for later when AA decries the fact that all the kinks weren't anticipated and worked out in advance.)
I didn't address the issue of whether Obama could do this by executive order because it seemed remote. Redo the entire country's health care system by edict? It is indeed good to be king, but this might be on EO too far.
If you push too hard for the president's powers by edict, then you are actually pushing new powers into the hands of presidents of whom you REALLY disapprove. It's very much a two-edged sword, IMO.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/15/2014 - 9:01pm
http://www.hsrd.research.va.gov/publications/esp/quality.pdf
Here's a relevant meta study that supports your thesis...
"CONCLUSIONS
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/15/2014 - 9:12pm
Also this...
http://www.rand.org/blog/2012/08/socialized-or-not-we-can-learn-from-the...
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/15/2014 - 9:14pm
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/08/va_hospitals_vs.html
Perhaps this is the root of the confusion. According to this article, the VA performed VERY poorly prior to the early 1990s. Clinton, it seems, made a point of reforming it, and I guess it worked.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/15/2014 - 9:17pm
Let us review the bidding: You asked why VA (for all) over Medicare (for all). To that question, I replied "cost".
The VA runs, by my most recen recollection, to about $6,400/per capita per year. Medicare, a hell of a lot more (I want to say twice as much, but, as befoe, I am reaching back to my esteemed research department, so take with salt as desired.)
Turning, with ellipses, to the implementation question, assuming insurmountable legislative opposition to "simply" opening the VA enrollment window, may we not envision a world in which the VA, on instruction from the President, and in a manner not requiring budgetary approval (because it is revenue positve) just hires the doctors and does the deed--with economies of scale that enable them to keep open the clinics and hospitals currently under threat of closure as actual veterans, previously the product of the draft and mass mobilization dwindle.
Drones produce far fewer veterans than D-day type operations, n'est ce-pas?
by jollyroger on Sat, 02/15/2014 - 9:53pm
I see your point, now, on cost.
Okay, have no opinion one way or another.
As to implementation, not so sure. You'd be going from a dwindling number of vets using the system to, potentially, 300 million people being eligible to use it, if not using it all, in fact. That's a lot of hiring that has to go on, and we're already facing a doctor shortage. In any event, doesn't the president need money to do this much hiring? And doesn't that mean he needs the House?
Not sure how this becomes revenue positive or for whom.
Do people simply use their current insurance policies to pay for care at VA facilities? Or do we all pay much reduced premiums to the VA for our right to walk into any VA facility anywhere in the world, really? Or does our current doctor (that one everyone is so worried about having to give up) bill the VA? Or does our access to the VA just get added to our taxes and we pay for it much as we do for Medicare?
I know I'm asking about a lot of details, but it's because I'm trying to work it out in my head. Not trying to be a buzz kill, but it feels a bit complicated to me.
Medicare For All is just a payment system. The government becomes the big insurance company in the sky. VA For All would entail the government owning not just the means of payment and controlling how much is paid, but the owning and running of all health care providers. It would be the equivalent, as I understand it, of Britain's NHS.
I think the president would probably need congressional approval for that--don't you think?
But maybe this is a lot simpler than I'm making it. From this moment forward, any citizen can walk into any VA facility and get care. For this right, he pays an annual premium, perhaps through the income tax system, and gets a card that says he's up to date on his payments. And that's it. This annual premium will be much lower than what he or his employer is paying now because the VA's costs are much lower than those of the private sector.
I guess he'd be assigned to a primary at the principal facility he uses, and his records would be shared electronically across the entire VA system. This would allow him to use any facility if need be, and the doctors there could see what was up with him.
This feels relatively straightforward. But still, much hiring would be required and appropriations would have to come through the House. Moreover, changing the VA's mission this dramatically would almost certainly require congressional approval.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/15/2014 - 10:39pm
I do worry about taking a system that now serves some millions of individuals...and opening the doors to $300 million, potentially. Straining the system that way might well have an impact on outcomes, as well. Who knows?
Anyway, I understand this idea much better after this discussion, and for that, I thank you, my liege.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 02/15/2014 - 10:46pm
Somewhere we lost sight of the original proposal,which was to charge the VA cost plus 10%, thus the more people the more money is available to hire, as we need no profit and are always 10% ahead of costs.
As for too many people stretching the system, the British NHS does quite well, I am given to understand. I have elsewhere proposed to combine auto body repair trade schools with Medical Schools, turning out the necessary personnel,also as the private market dwindles, many of our currently overpaid MDs might find it acceptable to take "the king's shilling"
by jollyroger on Sat, 02/15/2014 - 11:08pm
Long response up in smoke.
Lucky you!
Just one thought: If you're going to change the country's health care system this dramatically, you need a lot of buy-in. No executive order.
You also need a lot of money appropriated up front to build it out with a need for serious appropriations. Even if the money is going to come back to you, which is not guaranteed. Again, no executive order.
I know it's satisfying at some level to think that if only Obama hadn't been a ball-less sell-out, we'd be halfway to paradise by now--but I doubt it.
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/16/2014 - 10:22pm
Jolly, a reminder that you and I had a good discussion of single payer systems vs. national health on your expanded Medicaid thread, which included us digging up lots of good data and links.
My personal favorite is the chart I found that shows UK constituents are the happiest of all with their system.
What lots of people don't get is that even single payer systems are still just insurance, still have not stripped out disastrous effects of the profit motive. Far from it in many cases--witness our own Medicare fee-for-service being the main feeder of the medical industrial complex and going bankrupt in the process. Or how Medicaid is often handed over to penny pinching for-profit HMO's so that doesn't happen to states. Or how Canada's system is pretty far down on that happiness list.
As an aside about how Medicare is not the holy grail, I would like to add a reminder that Medicare pays only 80% of member's bills outside of the hospitali inpatient bill (and for the latter there is also a $1,000 per annum deductible.) So that most seniors find the need to have additional insurance to cover that, or they basically sell out their fee-for-service coverage for a limited provider managed care plan so they don't have to come up with those co-pays or secondary insurance.
It may take another century but people will eventually realize that "socialized medicine" is the only way. The profit motive does not sync with the practice of medicine, period; it's an art and a profession. (The science of medical development is different, there an argument about profit motive makes sense.) That basic medical practice without profit motive should be provided like firefighting is provided. And that, like always, as with any system those with more money can pay for other services not included or for insurance if they wish. There are "death panels" now and there will always be "death panels" as long as there are rich people who can afford experimental treatments. But the ironic thing with that is, it's also often the case that those rich might be also be better off with those who practice medicine as a profession than those who do it for profit.
In my own case, researching health troubles of self, friends and family, it is often the British medical system that has provided the real answers. Because they don't go for what the latest thing the medical industrial complex is selling, but because they go for what works. No surprise to me that the BMJ is the one that published the latest mammography news. Do you know how big a business mammography has become, and how many jobs it provides? How many surgeons doing those biopsies? How many insurer employees processing the claims? How many non-profit cancer association employees promoting it? Does it really do what it purports to? Few asked until now, it's too big, too many jobs, too much money at stake. It's no longer practicing medicine on individuals, it's become something else, a machine, a complex.
by artappraiser on Sun, 02/16/2014 - 5:19pm
"socialized medicine
Oddly, we find socialized law enforcement, firefighting , and national defense (perhaps this last lately in question...) to make perfect sense, but not medecine, another life or death issue.
Edit to add: There is currently a job listing for a chief of anesthesiology at the VA in Phoenix, with a salary range from 99k to a (paltry) 300k, which tiny compensation causes me to cry out, "Oh, the humanity!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F54rqDh2mWA
by jollyroger on Sun, 02/16/2014 - 8:20pm
Since I'm in favor of socialized medicine, perhaps I shouldn't play Devil's Advocate here--but it's worth noting.
• Police are socialized because they are entrusted with enforcing the law "the people" have established. You don't want this responsibility in the hands of a private, and therefore highly partial, entity.
• Firefighting is socialized because fire is socialized. It jumps from house to house or tree to tree in an instant. If you're an antiquer, you've probably seen those iron medallions people would put on their homes to show they had subscribed to a particular fire department. If Jolly's Firefighters saw the Jolly medallion on a house, they'd know to put out the fire, but not the fire in Peter's house because he hadn't paid up and subscribed. Problem was, if Peter's fire was about to spread to Jolly's customer, it made sense to put out Peter's fire, even if he wasn't a customer.
• National defense is listed in the Constitution as public function. It was clear to the founders that it made no sense for Delaware, CT, NY to each mount armies and navies let alone to leave that function to individuals or towns or blocks. If the British conquer Delaware, then NJ is next and that much more vulnerable.
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/16/2014 - 10:39pm
Cuidado! Private soldiers (blackwater, or whatever it's called these days) is the coming thing.
Also, if you favor socialized medicine, why sign up for the Devil's brigade? Time on your hands?..
by jollyroger on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 12:11am
To separate good arguments from weak ones?
To anticipate attacks?
To get a better bead on the challenges an idea presents?
To avoid being accused later of being a "Jollybot"?
To maintain one's cred as an "independent, no-nonsense thinker"?
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 10:51am
I got "bots"?? (If so, and any of them are cute girls, please come forward)
by jollyroger on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 12:56pm
Not to mention, (caution:cross thread alert!" socialized sewers, (we having been duly warned against the hellhole of open sewage...)
by jollyroger on Sun, 02/16/2014 - 8:22pm
The biggest reason to go for a Medicare For All before going for an NHS system is that it is a LOT simpler to implement. No build out. No need to hire new doctors. No need to open new facilities. No need to sort out the civilian v military issues.
All of the payment problems you cite with Medicare can be resolved with the stroke of a pen. Don't like the 1K deductible? There, it's gone. Don't like the 80%? There, it's gone. That's the beauty of an insurance policy.
Doctors who accept Medicare and Medicaid patients already take a low, reasonable fee for their services. The pinch on fees is what drives many of them away. I'm not sure why you think those folks are going to go work for a VA+10% where they have no choice but to work for very low fees? Jolly seems to think that these folks will be champing at the bit to work for a more modest wage. I. don't. know.
And Medicare could negotiate for lower drug and device prices. Why not? As the main feeder of the medical industrial complex, it could easily squeeze down prices.
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/16/2014 - 10:57pm
Dean Baker has long railed against the protectionism in place vis-a-vis the immigration of foreign trained MDs.
Add to that the guild chokehold on domestic training of MDs and the continuing strictures on the use of nurse practitioners for many routine interventions, and we arrive at the current medical services shortfall.
I continue to point to Cuba where they turn out so many skilled doctors that the export of their services is a significant bump to the flow of foreign exchange into the island.
Also, as noted elsewhere in the thread, $300,000 for the chief of anesthesiology
isshould be no ones idea of penury.by jollyroger on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 1:01pm
Jolly's proposal for a VA style program would have been an easy sell.
"We as a Nation want to give our servicemen the best care possible and we know it is, that is why, you should have it too."
by Resistance on Fri, 02/14/2014 - 6:05pm
I disagree.
It could have been derailed easily with the following:
"Why should a Welfare Queen be sopping up inevitably limited health care resources that were established to heal the wounds of warriors who volunteered to risk their lives so that we could all enjoy freedom."
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/16/2014 - 10:42pm
Because we won't let her into the regular ER, she'll have to go to the VA (or be diverted there when her ambulance is en route) and we'll save big bucks...Now if you would like to subscribe to the "let'em die" caucus, the next Republican primary beckons. You keep ignoring the provision that stipulates for each covered person the "real veterans" will benefit by the 10% vigorish.
Are you having trouble with that idea?
Since the "welfare queen" is currently on medicaid, which by defniniton costs more than our prospective single provider, stfu.
by jollyroger on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 12:15am
Stay polite, Jolly, and recall that I am on your side...
Or I will have to remind you of all the things I've said that you haven't responded to.
Did you really mean for me to "stfu"?
Read this from the CMS actuarial report on Medicaid:
"Estimated per capita spending for children ($2,851) and adults ($4,362) was much lower than that for aged ($15,931) and disabled ($17,958) beneficiaries..."
The $4,362 would appear to be lower than the $6,300 you say the VA spends...by about 33%. Now, in fairness, this could be because the VA deals with people wounded in war--tough cases that necessarily cost more. I don't know. Maybe VA costs would go down.
Or maybe the cost is higher for the VA because they serve fewer people (do they?) and have fewer economies of scale. Or maybe the VA doesn't spend $6,300 per person, but something lower.
In any event, it seems hard to claim at this point that Medicaid "by definition" costs more than the VA.
Note also that I'm responding to Resistance's claim that the idea would be "an easy sell." I'm suggesting why it might not be especially if a Black Man of dubious origins proposes it. I'm not here talking about the merits. I'm not talking logic; I'm talking about the logic of demagoguery.
All the demagogues have to do is note the horrendous backlog the VA is experiencing in processing claims to add another log to the fire, however irrelevant this point might be.
Your first paragraph doesn't seem responsive (note that I give you the benefit of the doubt whilst allowing myself the opportunity to question) to what I'm suggesting. The expected objection is that the VA doctors, working with limited resources, will have to triage between the WQ and a wounded soldier. They are BOTH going to the VA; the ER is irrelevant. Unless I'm missing something.
I don't ignore the vig, but tried to ask this above: Where is all this extra money going to come from? My answer would be: the Treasury. This won't make our opponents happy; they don't want to spend money on veterans as is, after they get home, that is, or even when it comes to armoring humvees.
Now, as to the cost issue, I have some possibly bad news. AA can give you the details, but I'll give you the headlines. The 6,300 per cap or so that the VA spends now is just about the deductible amount that one pays for a Bronze plan under the ACA. However, AA has gone to great lengths to show us that people can't afford this amount. It's too high for lower income people. It's not a walk in the park even for higher income people. This is one of the "fatal flaws" in the ACA AA has ferreted out. How will they suddenly be able to afford $6,300 plus vig?
And it gets worse: You only pay a deductible when you get sick and go to the doctor. With VA for All, we will all be paying this amount come rain or shine.
My recommendation is that the Treasury simply pick up the tab. Or, we could make it an invisible tax somewhere or a payroll tax deduction. That would work, too. If you pay taxes, you get a VA for All card and can go to any of their 1,700 facilities. Even if you're an "illegal immigrant" which, of course, is another reason the right will try their best to sink this idea.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 10:45am
Thanks for bringing actual data from Medicare-I have to say that I'm amazed at how I underestimated the numbers.
Let's do a little deconstruction:
The VA is giving an overal figure rolling all covered individuals, from the basket cases being rebuilt after ten tours in Af-Pak to the sergeants retired after 20 years, who are paying their own premiums (recall that full coverage goes only to those carrying the burden of some service related disability).
Bearing in mind, of course, the medicare addresses an older cadre, so that medicare for all would certainly bring down the per capita cost., are you quarreling with the fundamental savings availabe to single provider over single payer?
It's hard to project the likely costs if single provider were extended to all, diluting the impact of the walking wounded, vs. single payer similarly diluting the aged (we all know that 25% of one's medical costs come in the last year of life--if only we could know it was the last year while we were in it).
In simpler terms, I'm relying on the experience of, for instance, the British NHS as well as the already manifest savings the VA experiences through such simple (and quality neutral) expedients as negotiating prescription drug prices where Part D is explicitely forbidden so to do) to project , let's pick a number, a 5% savings the day we complete the transition to single provider.
The implementation obstacles you cite are not trivial, and that's why in my fantasy the only change that I immediately put in place is opening access at the cited costs. I'm pretty sure that within ten years private coverage would be a thing of the past, concierge practices perhapse slightly expanded, and the overall econmy relieved of the current burdens exemplified by the $1000/vehicle imputed cost to GM .
Edit to add:: A better formula for projecting premiums might well spin in subsidies for veterans bearing the costs of "our execellent adventures" which would bring down the premiums to the public at large--likewise, as with Obamacare, lower income payers could get subsidized and one might well imagine a lower premium for younger vs. older. Eventually, I'd roll the whole thing into the tax structure, like they do in all single payer countries--opening access through premium payments is just a transitional mechanism to demonstrate the popularity and competitive advantage of single payer as a competitor in the "free" insurance market..
by jollyroger on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 12:37pm
Why should we let them control the narrative? We should shame them, (if that’s even possible)
“Heal the wounds” how do you heal the wounds; of those families, who gave their loved ones as a sacrifice; to a one sided ideal
For whom; some politicians who feather their own beds; hiding behind the flag of patriotic duty?
Looking to the future; when our moms, dads or siblings needing the help, that could have been provided, by their now maimed or killed in action father, mother, son, brother or sister.
We all sacrificed, some more than others, but what I despise the most is how Uncle Sam; thinks it’s all about his liberty, his freedom to screw the victims multiple times over.
Handing someone a flag from a covered coffin, does not warm, feed or care for another for very long.
We appreciate their kind thoughts and prayers in our time of grief; but where is the help, when we really need it. Only to be called Welfare queens, if we should ask Uncle Sam, where’s his sacrifice, where is his caring for those who sacrificed for him?
What does it profit the serfs to die and never to question why or who will we entrust our families care to, if we never return home. Why should we trust Uncle Sam or the Republicans to do the right thing?
Before we sacrifice, shouldn’t we at least know, Uncle Sam is going to care for those we leave behind?
The best healthcare for all is worth fighting for, not profit for carriers.
by Resistance on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 12:12pm
My question is this:
How is it possible for an old, carved piece of painted wood such as yourself to think so clearly when all the humans are talking like they were the ones born with duck brains?
You must be carved from some fine timber.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 2:14pm
Rhetorical question: whose fault is the following?
Kaiser Health Tracking Poll Jan., 2014: Many of the Uninsured Are Unaware of Key Coverage Provisions, Jan. 30, 2014
by artappraiser on Tue, 02/11/2014 - 11:45pm
WOW ... A rhetorical question...
I give up. Can you make it a multiple choice test?
Sixty-two (62%) percent of the American public think the Easter Bunny brings them colored eggs and candy.
So what more can I say? Give 'em time... They'll get hip to the trip.
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Wed, 02/12/2014 - 3:40am
Guinea pigs all:
Over 1 Million Added to Rolls of Health Plan
By Michael D. Shear and Reed Abelson, New York Times, Feb. 12/13, 2014
basically gives a summary of the administration's spin, and then the GOP's spin, and then this:
by artappraiser on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 12:10pm
I see nothing wrong with this ESPECIALLY as your vision of all the problems being anticipated and everything having been worked out is utter fantasy.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 1:51pm
Peter... ya' know what ?
After seeing AA's post above about the rhetorical question of whose fault it is that some folks remain in the dark... I'm still trying to figure out how so many millions of other people across this great nation found enough info to even initially sign-up. I guess they're "Guinea pigs all..."
See: State Marketplace Statistics at Kaiser Foundation.
Even in the Red States. See Larry Levitt's tweet (from Kaiser Foundation).
And.. I recall reading Reed Abelson, one of the authors of the above NYT article AA liked where she had added some totally unrelated bunk about "death panels" in a NYTimes piece back in September 2013. Gotta keep the red meat folks fed... I guess.
I swear, AA must get a penny for every NYTimes piece linked around here.
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 5:44pm
The other point to note...
(And because I can get harsh, I do want to say that I get a lot out of many of AA's links and comments...)
If people are in the dark NOW, what were they five minutes ago before the ACA?
For one thing, they were uninsured. That was fun, wasn't it? And if they were uninsured, they were probably uninsurable even if they got the cash to buy a plan. Walking around on a wing and a prayer counting on the kindness of strangers.
But for another, they must have been deaf, dumb, blind, and demented--not just in the dark--as they stumbled around in outer space trying to find insurance they could afford and understand. And whose fault was that? Which nefarious members of the Trilateral Commission were responsible for that state of affairs?
For the first time in my life, I'm not in the individual market, but on my wife's employer's plan. Good insurance.
But prior to this, I had:
• Two choices for insurers and they were the same. Good luck trying to make comparisons between the plans these two insurers offered printed out in fine print on indecipherable charts. Were I still in the individual market, the number of my choices would have jumped three times and I'd be hitting the "compare" button to put them side by side feature for feature. Would I find everything I needed to know to calculate my true costs? No. Would I still have to figure out how health insurance works? Yes. And? Back in the day, I had to figure out what a "copay" was without the benefit of a cute little video on a Web site explaining it in plain English; others will just have to figure it out with the benefit of that cute little video. Things have gotten better; woe is them.
• Very basic catastrophic protection which might or might not have covered me had I ever had a catastrophe. And even if I was covered, my coverage might have quit at a certain point had a long-term catastrophe struck.
Could I have known any of this when I plunked down my money? No. Talk about being a guinea pig. But now I DO know that my insurance can't quit paying for my treatment even if it goes on and on. This is an ill-appreciated point that goes to the heart of what insurance is. You don't know whether you "like" your insurance until you've put it through extreme testing. Not many have; that's why there's still an insurance industry. Most people don't use their plans very much or for very much.
• Very high deductibles to get anything like reasonable premiums. Plus two sets of deductibles, one for in and another for out of network visits. That was a shocker the day I ran into it. Now, $0 deductible for the SAME premiums I was paying four or five years ago. So a deductible that's been zeroed out and a zero increase in my premiums over the last four years. Not too shabby.
• No participation by any of the doctors I chose to go to. Well, my doctor of 10 years, a fine fellow, is not on my wife's plan either. Bye-bye fine fellow; hello new fine feline. Hello! Your doctor is not the only good doctor out of there. If you move across country, you're just going to have to trust that you'll find a good doctor out in LA, too. And I bet you will. Even if you're very ill. But if you don't, are you going to blame that on that stupid new job you decided to take? I guess you could always turn down the job. That would teach those mean insurance companies a thing or two.
• The threat of becoming uninsurable, except perhaps at astronomical prices, if I let my coverage slip because, say, I couldn't pay the premiums for three months. Uninsurable forever. Out there on my own with my pajama bottom flapping in the breeze, all because this variable incomer, moi, had a bad quarter and couldn't scrape together the premium. No more.
The difference between then and now is like night and day. And there are plenty of "back room" things in this program--for example cost-cutting measures like ACO and incentives for not charging by the treatment--that few people remark on, but that may end up having a major impact on costs and treatment.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/13/2014 - 7:59pm
From On Health Act, Democrats Run in Fix-It Mode, by Ashley Parker, New York Times, Feb. 16/17, 2014.
by artappraiser on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 10:13pm
All in all...not too bad a showing.
Especially as, as the second article, a huge sabotage effort has been underway.
And the problem with "fix it" is not that it is unfixable, it is that one party doesn't want to fix it...and has said so...repeatedly.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 10:23pm
I am simply glad to have permission of Democratic leaders to talk about things about ACA that need to be fixed, Now if only all left-of-center blog commenters would follow that lead and realize that happy spin is no longer required and one no longer needs to assume that those that do want to discuss problems and possible fixes are helping the vast right conspiracy against reform.
by artappraiser on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 4:25pm
Poor AA.
This is more of your nonsense.
The fact is, you've persisted in painting an almost entirely negative account of how the law is working. And you refuse to acknowledge or even discuss the ways the law has been a success against unrelenting attacks, both verbal and substantive.
Your conclusions, sprinkled through out, to paraphrase: "the law is a failure...the government is incapable of creating a working exchange...this shopping sucks" show your extreme negative bias.
In fact, if I were to stoop to your level, I'd call you a GOP shill.
After all, that is what Gillespie et al are doing. Every time there's a problem, they conclude that the law can't work. That's their constant message and, to be fair, yours.
Moreover, your constant refrain that the "law is law" and doesn't need defending wholly ignores the past five years of Republican attack which continues to this day. And not just verbal attacks, but actual actions they have taken at the national level and at the state level to help it on its way to failure.
Maybe you don't read the papers; hard to know.
Somehow, you think that every time I bring up substantive points countering your view that you are being shut down, shut up, or sensored. Hardly. But it is worth noting that your portrayal of the law is inaccurate in being highly biased.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 03/03/2014 - 10:19am
Maybe you don't read the papers; hard to know.
That's really funny because your whole complaint here to me sounds to me like the classic comment: "I don't read newspapers because they only have bad news."
This is a news thread, all "news" really is mostly bad, and I am the most prolific poster of news on this site.
And I'm not even posting these stories at the top of the news section, I'm collating them on an old thread mostly for my own information, and where only people who might want to follow what I am following would find them. I freely admit I'm doing that because it disturbs some of you more political types and I really don't want to do that.
I hardly think my thread is going to bring down the Senate for Democrats. I don't like happy spin, and I certainly don't want to write it.
refuse to acknowledge or even discuss the ways the law has been a success
I believe those are: expansion of Medicaid, getting rid of the pre-existing condition problem and getting insurance to a number of those who couldn't purchase it before. I know about those already, and informed people know about those already. I really am having a hard time seeing much else promising for the future of health care in this country (I am thinking beyond 2014, ya know.)
I just posted something downthread about how it's driving primary care doctors into networks where they would be salaried, that I think is probably a good thing, we'll see. Depends on what happens after most of them are in networks and what those networks make them do. If the networks were all non-profit, I'd be looking at that as a real positive sure thing, but they are not.
There is also an article below how some of the new co-ops are doing poorly and how some are doing well. That's the kind of article I like best: not happy spin, not bad spin but real analysis. That helps me interpret what's going on with this change. As do reports of what administration fixes, I really really want to know about those, both for personal use, and for
Peter, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I am doing something different here than what you want to do. Yes, I fully admit, I am collating reports of problems with the ACA here, that's what I want to do, that's how I analyze things.
I also am not personally happy with a lot of what I see going on so far. You can tell me over and over the same old happy spin points that I already know but I don't think that will change my mind. You are free to post them here nonetheless. New happy spin points might, as in: news, not olds.
I really do bypass the GOP spin stories when it's clear that's what they are. So I don't really feel it necessary to post all the "debunkin GOP" spin stories. That's not where I want to go, reading spin and the debunking of it, that's the politics/activism thing.
So when you challenge something, I may have something to say about it, I may not.
by artappraiser on Mon, 03/03/2014 - 12:25pm
It's odd that you would call stories about how the law is working to help people get coverage "happy spin." It's good news, but not spin. It might even be called part of an accurate picture of how the law is ACTUALLY working.
(When all the spin about X has been negative, it actually IS news when the reality is much more positive.)
It's not "news" to conclude that the law is a "failure" and "the government isn't equipped to create exchanges"...based on what, exactly? That's the heart of my criticism of some of your comments and your litany.
Younge wasn't "news," and it's the same sort of generalized condemnation. What kind of "analysis" did that article provide--other than a rehash of all the old complaints and a nice big bow saying "Obama doesn't stand for anything"? That's food for thought?
Anyway, if you're happy to live and let live, I'd only ask you to refrain from calling me a "shill" and other demeaning things.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 03/03/2014 - 12:42pm
I did not mean to call you a shill directly, but I did feell like you were arguing for people to shill more to help the Democrats win, that even if they were unhappy with ACA, they should at least keep their mouths shut if they don't want the GOP to win, and journalists should be going out of their way to do more positive articles on it to help the Dems win.
On
Younge wasn't "news," and it's the same sort of generalized condemnation.
I sometimes post op-eds in news if I think they are "news makers," along the lines of: news makers regarding politics. Some of you disagreed, thought it was the same old same old attack, not newsworthy. And I disagree with that, I think someone of Younge's standing bringing up that dissatisfaction at this point in time and getting a big response is newsworthy; I also don't think of him as being disingenuous, he wrote something he felt he needed to write at this point in time in Obama's presidency. It's not just another Firedoglake blogger who has been ranting about Obama since 2007. I note that not everyone who commented on Dagblog felt the same as you and Ramona.
I only rarely post op-eds as initial news items and I never post them just because they sync with my personal opinion, unlike other posters here (like Lulu, for instance.) I always do so if I think they are "newsmakers." This was the case with Younge, I don't agree with everything he said, but my opinion really isn't news, I think his is. Usually I mostly put them only in comments when I think they are interesting on topic.
further, on:
the same sort of generalized condemnation.
I really take exception to this thread being called "the same sort of generalized condemnation," as the stories on it are not "generalized condemnation," many of them are geeky analysis of the changes the Obama administration is making to ACA implementation. The generalized condemnation comes only from my personal opinions which are often only expressed by me when people like you push for me to give them.
To me, it's almost like you are saying that the Obama administrations' changes to the ACA should be kept behind closed doors and not pointed to and written about by the press because they are politically damaging.
by artappraiser on Mon, 03/03/2014 - 1:06pm
FWIW, I just re-read what you wrote, and I don't see where you did call him a shill, either directly or indirectly.
by Verified Atheist on Mon, 03/03/2014 - 1:16pm
VA, I'm truly not very interested in the "interpersonal" and mostly don't try to parse people's words--this thread being something of an exception.
The meaning of what I say is only interesting to the degree it illuminates issues beyond me. And I see it the same way for everyone else.
AA and I got into a little tiff on this point. But just to put a button on it, here's the exchange between Ramona and AA in which the latter is pretty clearly calling me a shill.
Ramona: A loyal shill? Who suggested that here?
AA: I read Peter's comment here that way, I was of course, hyperboling it for effect:
I will add more hyperbolic effects, this is the way I take that sort of comment: anyone progressive needs to get on board and start praising the lord.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 1:09pm
If you thought the Second Amendment was contentious, I don't know if they're ready to praise the Lord?
by Resistance on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 1:36pm
A political problem that may be a reason for the delays in employer mandate:
by artappraiser on Thu, 02/20/2014 - 5:36pm
by artappraiser on Sun, 03/02/2014 - 11:35pm
by artappraiser on Sun, 03/02/2014 - 11:59pm
by artappraiser on Sun, 03/02/2014 - 11:39pm
More on the co-ops that are being considered successes:
by artappraiser on Mon, 03/03/2014 - 12:35pm
by artappraiser on Sun, 03/02/2014 - 11:51pm
by artappraiser on Mon, 03/03/2014 - 12:17pm
May be one reason for the following news?
New Health Fix Offers Subsidies for Insurance Policies Bought Outside Exchanges
By Robert Pear, New York Times, March 1/2, 2014
Excerpt of that article posted above.
by artappraiser on Mon, 03/03/2014 - 12:27pm
Interesting news Art but can these off-exchange people actually be considered part of Obamacare's success or have any relationship to this program at all. People of all age groups were buying health insurance before Obamacare existed and will continue to buy it regardless of the new program.
by Peter (not verified) on Mon, 03/03/2014 - 2:00pm
Many ACA protections like not being charged more if you have a pre-existing condition and getting equalization of policy rules apply across the board, not just for exchange policies (that is part of the reason so many individual policies were cancelled/ended, because they no longer followed ACA rules., and insurers could no longer form the same kind of risk groups.)
This actually brings up something I haven't figured out yet which is of personal interest to me: what protections and ratings and ability to buy disappears March 31 for the outside the exchange policies and how much doesn't. I.E., which policies does "open enrollment" periods apply to now? Only Exchange policies? I suspect not. Anyone really understand this issue?
One thing I do know about the difference: the Exchange policies are subject to the rule of having their profits be a regulated percentage, outside policies are not. Part of that was because the fed government was subsidizing exchange policies, not just premiums but also possible risk. This is precisely why some pols (and probably some insurers as well) are outraged about this change in subsidy policy! And it's not at all clear about how that would work, though one might presume it would be going as a tax credit on the policy holders tax filing, rather than premium subsidy directly to the insurer like the Exchanges, but I don't know.
Edit to add: with the Medicare supplementals, open enrollment periods are quite strict. If you miss it, you are stuck with the plan you picked until the next open enrollment period.
And as to your point about people of all age groups have always been buying: the point of the article is that while the exchanges have been there, more people under 35 are buying outside of Exchanges than in, more than the other groups. The headline use of "success" is CNN's headline writer addition, not mine, nor the author's for that matter. Actually, the article content implies the under 35 crowd shows preference for using ecommerce sites over government exchanges. Certainly not a bonafide data point for saying young people think government is good at this kind of stuff, though the real reasons are not clear yet.
by artappraiser on Mon, 03/03/2014 - 2:37pm
The word "success" is implied in the author's words...
IOW, outside enrollment counts towards one big piece of "success" because, whether inside or outside, they defray the costs of older adults. (See the bottom quote.) Again, this is a private health care system. It isn't Medicare or Medicaid where the government is footing the main bill.
Moreover...
Which is one reason why the young'uns aren't necessarily going to the exchanges, but also a lack of patience with bad sites, etc., and a smaller perceived need for insurance at all.
IOW: Even so, the off-exchange market is expected to be smaller and thus not a 'threat' to the exchanges...and, in any event, both markets can be accounted as one for the purposes of calculating risk and premiums.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 03/03/2014 - 6:47pm
My point was that the author was trying to paint the ACA a "success" when it is failing to enroll the needed number of applicants. The off-exchange market is more than 19 million people so it is and may remain much larger than the exchanges. I wonder if it is even legal for the industry to use the off-ex enrollment to calculate premiums for the ACA. Many people want nothing to do with the ACA and now the government is trying to coopt them into the program with subsidies (bribes} to make this program appear successful. The ACA was sold as a program to help the uninsured to buy insurance, not most people who already buy their own insurance, and we were told it wouldn't affect the off-exchange market, which was a lie, now the off-ex market is being portrayed as part of the ACA and used as a crutch to prop up its failures.
by Peter (not verified) on Mon, 03/03/2014 - 10:13pm
So much of this was not only foreseeable, but foreseen, and many of the anticipated ameliorative institutions (eg the co-ops that never got funded, the truncated medicaid, what have you) were more than merely icing on an otherwise utilitarian cake--they were crucial.
How much clairvoyance was required to see that the party who declared on day one of his presidency an implacable roadblocking policy would find ways to fuck him up?
O-bambi indeed...That's the one place where I really deplore the choice of Obama over Hillary--it's not so much that she's more progressive, it's that she's meaner.
by jollyroger on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 12:25am
And it's not clear she's more progressive...is it?
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 12:18pm
Unencumbered by any systematic review of their stated positions (as if they could be assumed to actually perform in conformance to their rhetoric), I sort of intuit that she is, and actually articulated that during the primaries, although still favoring Obama cuz I thought he would be more electable.
by jollyroger on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 1:14pm
Being electable ain't Swiss cheese--though it's hard to predict.
Who knows? Had she been the candidate, I would've gladly voted for her.
I do think you have a point in thinking she's a tougher fighter. Bipartisanship was never a hang-up for her. She's always known who her enemies were.
Safe to say, Obama was more naive, or idealistic, however you want to put it. Though, at the time, as I recall, a lot of people were focused on partisan gridlock, and having someone who could bridge the divide did have appeal.
But remember...
The GOP was on its back in 2007-8. I'm not sure anyone actually predicted the rise of the TP, which was really the engine for the 2010 loss.
Of coure, had there not been a TP, Obama might have compromised even more with the GOP. It was their obduracy which has put some spine into him, no?
I think it goes like this...
When you make a decision to do something (e.g., support Obama) it's like you're walking through the woods and taking in a panorama of sights. Everything hits you and affects you and moves you in a certain way.
But when you look back on that time, it's like you're looking at the same scene through a range finder. Much of what you saw or felt at the time is cropped out. You can no longer smell the smells or hear the sounds, so you focus on just the few details you can see and leave out everything else that went into your decision at the time. So everything looks much simpler and clearer than it did back then.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 3:31pm
No time now to get into it, but your comments reflect a lack of understanding of what the ACA is.
Think about this: The ACA is NOT government-provided health insurance. It is NOT akin to Medicare and Medicaid.
If off-exchange policies conform to ACA requirements, they are, in that sense, part of the ACA. Why? Because without the ACA they would not be conforming to these requirements. People would still be getting turned down for pre-existing conditions, having their benefits capped.
One piece of the puzzle required to make the thing work--as private insurance--is a sufficient number of younger, healthier people signing up. They defray the financial risk of an older, and therefore sicker pool (see Jolly as an example of this-:).
As the article makes clear, young people signing up within the exchanges and outside the exchanges serve the same purpose. They funnel into the same risk pools of the same insurers.
The reason is simple: The exchanges aren't themselves insurance providers. They are simply a market place for insurers. How many young people who sign up through a market place isn't important from a risk standpoint, only how many young sign up for health insurance.
Edit to add: That all said, it is true that it's not good news that a lot more young aren't signing up through the exchanges. But I would hardly call this a definitive death knell, as AA might to portray, inasmuch as this is a starved and embattled program still in its infancy. The forces arrayed against it want to kill it in the crib.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 8:54am
You can think of it as a highway with certain rules of the road and where cars are required to have certain kinds of equipment, e.g., safety belts, catalytic converters.
The ACA is a bit like these rules of the highway with the exchanges being kind of like the highway, i.e., a place for the cars to run.
The ACA does not provide the cars, nor does it determine which cars will and won't be manufactured or sold with certain exceptions. One being, you can no longer make a car that requires leaded gasoline.
The ACA doesn't prevent a car from going off-road. However, those off-road vehicles must still pass crash tests, emissions tests, and so on.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 9:00am
One last point. It isn't surprising that an intelligent person such as yourself has a misconception about the ACA. The amount of damaging propaganda that has been unleashed on this program from the beginning as been breathtaking.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 9:03am
It's difficult to answer your patronizing comment since I have so many misconceptions about what makes the world turn, PS but I'll try without using lame car analogies, propaganda or dismissive rhetoric, well maybe not the last. You seem to comprehend the technical aspects of the ACA and health insurance in general, while being clueless about the political and PR manipulation being tested to make it appear successful.. You then try to divert the discussion with red herrings about Medicare and other nonsense that has little to do with the failures of the ACA. This is not just a PR battle for the hearts and minds of an ignorant class of consumers the ACA is a blueprint for dismantling Medicare and forever banishing the concept of Single Payer. Either you support these retrograde agendas or you're so dense as to not comprehend the forces in play here.
by Peter (not verified) on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 11:19am
It's difficult to answer your patronizing comment since I have so many misconceptions about what makes the world turn, PS but I'll try without using lame car analogies, propaganda or dismissive rhetoric, well maybe not the last. You seem to comprehend the technical aspects of the ACA and health insurance in general, while being clueless about the political and PR manipulation being tested to make it appear successful.. You then try to divert the discussion with red herrings about Medicare and other nonsense that has little to do with the failures of the ACA. This is not just a PR battle for the hearts and minds of an ignorant class of consumers the ACA is a blueprint for dismantling Medicare and forever banishing the concept of Single Payer. Either you support these retrograde agendas or you're so dense as to not comprehend the forces in play here.
by Peter (not verified) on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 11:19am
Well, let's look at your original comment...
P: My point was that the author was trying to paint the ACA a "success" when it is failing to enroll the needed number of applicants.
PS: Where is your evidence for this bias in her account?
P: The off-exchange market is more than 19 million people so it is and may remain much larger than the exchanges.
PS: Based on...what exactly? A few months of experience?
P: I wonder if it is even legal for the industry to use the off-ex enrollment to calculate premiums for the ACA.
PS: Why not? Once again, both sets of policies need to conform to the same standards.
P: Many people want nothing to do with the ACA and now the government is trying to coopt them into the program with subsidies (bribes} to make this program appear successful.
PS: Once again, there is no "program" per se. There are a set of rules which individual policies must conform to. In single payer, there are all kinds of "subsidies" though not necessarily called that. Perhaps you want to call them "bribes" as well.
P: The ACA was sold as a program to help the uninsured to buy insurance, not most people who already buy their own insurance...
PS: Most people get their insurance through their employers. The ACA was specifically aimed at the entire individual market, including people who already own individual policies. You clearly weren't paying attention.
P: and we were told it wouldn't affect the off-exchange market
PS: No, we were not. We were told the ACA would address the entire individual market. No insurer could refuse anyone for pre-existing conditions. No insurer could cap any policy benefits. These were all advertised as across the board reforms.
Now to the little bit of nastiness you're so well known for, at least here...
P: while being clueless about the political and PR manipulation being tested to make it appear successful..
PS: Aside from your usual nastiness, you provide zero proof of this, nor do you define "success." If "success" to you is that the program makes all its targets in the first few months, even in the face of a onslaught of opposition and sabotage, then the kindest thing I can say is that your expectations are sadly out of whack.
P: You then try to divert the discussion with red herrings about Medicare and other nonsense that has little to do with the failures of the ACA.
PS: Only because it was clear you were sadly misinformed on what the ACA is.
P: This is not just a PR battle for the hearts and minds of an ignorant class of consumers the ACA is a blueprint for dismantling Medicare and forever banishing the concept of Single Payer.
PS: If you believe this to be true, then why don't you make your case. You never do. Your MO here is to come in, drop a few pronunciamentos, insult a few people, and then go away. Why not skip the first two bits and just go away.
P: Either you support these retrograde agendas or you're so dense as to not comprehend the forces in play here.
PS: Or make your case...
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 12:14pm
Hey, pal, I will have you to know that on my chest is tatooed "Part me out" and folks are lining up, lining up, I say, for the goods, (especially some of the parts that are truly exceptional, if you catch my drift--for instance, the size 15 feet, which make me stable in strong winds, and the other similarly sized parts that....um...never mind.)
Moreover, I don't know about whom you speak, since I have already made it clear that I am 19--there is some confusion about my paperwork...
by jollyroger on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 12:26pm
a definitive death knell, as AA might to portray,as AA might to portray,
You have this wrong. I am trying to figure out what ACA is--which keeps changing all the time--how it grow, and how that all will affect our entire health care system. Whether what happens was intended or not. Like I said over and over, it is our new law and I don't think it is going away. And I am not trying to portray it as anything other than it is for my own understanding. Not for agitprop.
It really doesn't do me any good to keep repeating the few things I have seen so far that I think are good about it. That would be agitprop. What I am trying to figure out is the complications and changes and developments, good and bad. There ain't many new good ones lately.
The part of this misunderstanding of yours, suspecting me of having an agenda of killing the law or whatever, that really bugs me is when I personally express doubts about something happening with it, that where that might take us is a where I might not like. And you then basically implying I am trying to kill it by not liking this or that.
You are free to see good news in all the news items I post and I am free to see bad news in them. You may have a political agenda, but I don't.
by artappraiser on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 12:49pm
My point here was that your assessment of the author's points--that she wasn't saying anything that could be construed as some success for the ACA--was wrong.
In short, you're misreading your own article, just as you misread Younge.
Do that enough, and it does start to feel like you're skewing the news in your own preferred direction.
However, my original response to your response to Peter was simply to show objectively, with quotes, that younger people signing up outside the exchanges was good news simply because it's good news when younger people sign up and enter the risk pool. According to your article writer. The headline reflects that.
(Peter "solves" this little problem by calling her a propagandist.)
Whether they sign up inside or outside the exchanges is immaterial for the risk calculation needed to make the law work. That's the writer's point and what I was pointing out.
It is, of course, not a success that more people aren't going through the exchanges, but that wasn't her principal point and, at this point in the life of the program, I don't find it very worrying.
I can totally get with your delving into the complications and developments...that's a very useful thing you do, and I enjoy reading the articles and get a lot out of them.
Your summary editorializing on the upshot of these changes, however, tends to ignore the counterbalancing effects of the "good" things. That hurts the accuracy of the picture being portrayed. It really doesn't matter whether these "good" things are new or not. If you sum it up, as Peter does, by saying no one wants to have anything to do with the ACA...then that's just inaccurate.
In fact, way back when I posted a piece with the hyperbolic headline The Beginning of the End for Obamacare, you objected to the summary picture I was painting. You said it was way overblown and catastrophizing, and we got off on a tangent about Bill Clinton. Though you didn't seem willing to look at the substance of the article, you were most definitely right about my headline.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 1:34pm
Just keep in mind, that AA had already pointed out, to Peter, that whether or not they go through the exchange, people benefit from the provisions of the ACA:
You think AA is reading the original article wrong, but I think you're reading AA wrong.
by Verified Atheist on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 1:53pm
VA, I'm going to have to bow out of this soon because I actually don't like the interpersonal parsing of words much, though I do fall into it from time to time.
Most recently, AA and I got off on the wrong foot when she objected to my saying what I had to say, not to her, not about Younge per se, but to Ramona on her thread.
Her characterization of me as shilling for the Democratic Party was offensive to me. A shill is a plant, a liar, someone who is there simply to manipulate others and who has no care for the objective truth as best it can be determined.
I have a POV, but I also change my mind when the facts change.
If anyone was trying to "shut up" anyone else, it was she me. I wasn't objecting to her posting the Younge article--she was objecting to my saying what I had to say.
And most of what I had to say in that original post was ignored, and she latched on to the bit that fit her hobby horse, i.e., partisanship. So it was doubly irritating.
Anyway...
Peter's post went to the question of the ACA's "success" as revealed in the numbers and facts in the article. He was disputing the appropriateness of that word.
AA's response was long, but here she addresses that...
The meaning being that the word wasn't supported by what the writer had written. This is a common complaint about headlines; they don't reflect the article.
In this case, she was wrong about what the article was saying.
However, you do capture some of what she was saying. Perhaps I was mostly arguing with Peter through her, which is a bit unfair.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 2:48pm
I saw what you posted elsewhere in response to my "shill" question, and I respect that you don't want to get into interpersonal discussions. I understand your frustration, and I agree that the it was not the best thing for AA to have said. I believe he (and I think AA is a "he", IIRC) has apologized which seems like the best thing to have done. I respect what you've written here (and elsewhere), and I hope you two patch it up. You've both written a lot of insightful material. If I'm biased, it's because I've "known" (i.e., in the sense that I've been reading him) AA for a long time. Believe me when I say that calling you a shill was out of character for him.
by Verified Atheist on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 3:19pm
I am a she. Otherwise I am bowing out of this part of the discussion cause I'm tired of it and I've learned that sometimes when disagreeing with Peter Schwartz (even from TPM Cafe days,watching his interactions with others,) it's best to just let one own's record stand for itself and stop belaboring it. I don't feel the need to continue to clarify to excess of like, Talmudic studies. Some people like doing that, and that's fine, but I much prefer to move on to new stuff. Collating new stuff in my own head works better for me than infinite degrees of debate on past points. I'm unlikely to change my thoughts from such debate, but incorporating new data has done that for me time and again.
I would like to say, though, that I do very much appreciate some of the things you said, that others jumped in really helped a lot.
by artappraiser on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 3:34pm
That's okay, none of it really matters.
You're very even-keeled, while I am not.
Were you Verified Atheist back in the days on TPM Cafe?
For the most part, I used a different name: Tintin.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 6:12pm
No, but I was there. I've forgotten my old screen name. At one time I was Nebton, but I'm not sure if that was there or just here.
by Verified Atheist on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 6:18pm
For a while, I thought that Peracles might have been San Fernando Curt. They seemed to have similar concerns (in part), but the tones of voice are completely different.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 7:01pm
Everyone but you, apparently, knows Peracles Please is Desidero from TPMCafe, I don't think I am letting you in on some big secret here, he doesn't really try hard to hide it that much, there are references to those days from time to time in passing. He used Desidero here for a while, but then returned from a time away (after a brouhaha, when friends Quinn, Obey, we-are-stardust [wendy davis @ TPMCafe and now wendy davis @ fdl] and others left) with the new name. Sometimes people need a new name for a new start but aren't really trying to hide anything, and I don't see anything wrong with that. Content is king.
I think I've seen when Quinn still makes comments on occasion, using an unregistered name like "Qnonymous" or some such, he forgets and still calls PP "Des".
by artappraiser on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 7:28pm
I remember reading that name quite a bit, but can't recall his comments now.
Maybe...it's vaguely coming through.
I didn't spend much time on the "right side" of the page, as Bruce would say, mostly because I was sucked into the black hole that I call the MJ Wars.
One reason I still don't have the energy to debate or even discuss the IP conflict. Mythbuster, for one, wore me out.
The "right side" was a bit overwhelming...too much to read.
I do remember Miguelito's name, but nothing about him which, it now seems, was a shame. But there you have it.
Wendy Davis, as I recall, seemed a bit more moderate than I remember Stardust. Maybe it was the name...or me...or the time...or...
Yes, the name doesn't matter but I've wondered from time to time about various names. I can see how it could mean a new start. I dropped Tintin around the time Bruce decided to use his full name. There was a lot of racism in the Tintin series, but I loved it as a boy. The drawings were exquisite and long predated graphic novels.
Content is king, mind-to-mind, heart-to-heart communication, which is its biggest plus, IMO.
I remember you and Bruce exactly as you are here.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 8:03pm
by artappraiser on Wed, 03/05/2014 - 9:05pm
There were other changes announced, including on risk corridors and cost-sharing: from Kaiser Health News Changes To Health Law Rules Include Extra Month To Enroll In 2015, March 6, 2014
by artappraiser on Fri, 03/07/2014 - 1:00am
Summary of each @ the link.
by artappraiser on Sun, 03/09/2014 - 3:18pm
Has some interesting proposals for how to pre-empt potential "narrow network" rebellion while still introducing more management of care:
I especially like point two. The size of a plan’s network should be as transparent as its premium really gets at my disappointment with the exchanges from the getgo, the whole "buying a pig in a poke" thing. I was hoping it was going to be an online marketplace where you could easily compare complex information about the products offered. If they couldn't provide that, they should have waited until it was possible. (Some didn't even have their networks fully set up but were still creating them as they were selling, waiting to strike deals with providers until they had a better prediction of sign-ups.) I saw that as key to making it popular and to greasing more reform towards more managed care being found not just acceptable, but more popular, in both private insurance and in Medicare and Medicaid, too.
by artappraiser on Thu, 03/06/2014 - 1:54pm
So what’s the “net” for all of us?
Caveat emptor. We’re not suggesting it’s necessary or even wise to shy away from all the narrow nets.
Rather, make darn sure you do your homework before building or selecting a plan that’s associated with one.
- See more at: http://www.joepaduda.com/2014/03/are-narrow-networks-bad-are-there-bad-n...by artappraiser on Fri, 03/07/2014 - 3:17am
Some perspective...
For years now, all the best doctors have moved away from accepting insurance. They would, at most, mail your claim, and you'd get back your pittance for out-of-network providers. Taking insurance, including M and M, requires a whole infrastructure that cuts into their income and requires them to take lower fees. So they opt out.
I've almost never had a doctor who didn't charge way above the "normal and customary" fee for a procedure.
But...but...Medicare For All and VA For All doesn't really solve this problem. Instead of insurance companies forcing providers to take less, it is the government. The government is doing it a bit with ACA...and is roundly criticized for it...but this is nothing when compared to real government-run health care.
Ultimately, all the problems with all the programs drain into one pool called: The underlying cost of medical care and medications.
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 03/09/2014 - 6:51pm
by artappraiser on Fri, 03/07/2014 - 12:55am
an extensive round up of news links on topic.
by artappraiser on Fri, 03/07/2014 - 1:04am
by artappraiser on Tue, 03/11/2014 - 3:41pm
MHO: Just wasn't ready for primetime. People signing up in the next enrollment period will benefit greatly from this year's guinea pigs. If it survives the political hay being made of all of the not-ready-for-primetime problems, that is.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 12:34am
That's a tough judgment to make. For one, virtually all major programs, public or private, are to a lesser or greater degree not ready for primetime. The only way to figure out where all the problems are is to encounter them and fix them, which they appear to be doing. This program had a better chance than most because there was a living model of it working in MA.
Waiting would not have helped and would likely have sunk the project altogether. Why? Unlike in the private sector where there's a hierarchy of command, and a private company like MS can decide to release a new OS whenever it wants, launching something like this requires 535 "cats" to be in sufficient alignment to pass a bill which has to have launch dates, etc. Not to mention the federal and state bureaucracies. Not to mention the insurance companies. Not to mention 300 million Americans. Any other program of this scale would also have had unforeseen problems.
If you allow the moment of alignment to pass, it most likely never comes back again.
To be sure, lots of hay will be, and has been made, of the ACA's problems. I'm surprised to hear you wonder about its survivability, though, since your big thesis has been all along that this thing was law and wasn't going anywhere. In any event, political hay has been made of the ACA for years now and has contributed to the ACA's rocky start. And much of it was pure, hyped-up nonsense and demagoguery.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 8:51am
I probably should have used a better word than "survives." I don't think a government program like this is ever "killed."Rather, it can just slowly disappear into near oblivion with a few still getting their guaranteed-by-government benefit forever. (In this case, the few would be a few insurers and a few insured.) Via bad word-of-mouth. Until someone decides to reform the reform and get some rebranding going. The latter can happen, look at the V.A., for example: it used to be looked at as a tragedy to have to be such a poor veteran that you'd end up at a V.A. hospital. Some people in government tried to fix it and the word got around: not such a bad place anymore, not bad at all. But that took a very long time to repair the damage of the bad reputation.
Jury remains out on Obamacare. I will only say that so far my opinion on the politics is that it wouldn't have been that hard to have a much better rollout (and I don't just mean website problems) which would have resulted in much better word-of-mouth which would have taken a lot of wind out of the sails of the anti-Obamacare GOP contingent. They put themselves in a catch-22 by not managing it all better with more foresight so that now they've got to hide improvements that would have helped sell the thing if they had been included from the getgo.
If I could see early on, with my first looks at what was being offered on the exchanges, that a big problem was many didn't even refer to networks or providers, that they were basically asking people to buy a pig in a poke without much info., why couldn't HHS and a lot of state exchanges see that?
CT is one state that's doing well with sign-ups. I visited the site yesterday to help a friend. And I could see why: every policy has a link to "check if my doctor is in plan". That's rare.
If they wanted the rollout to do really well, they would have done far more than that, they would have demanded that insurers have all their providers signed before they could even be on the exchange, and that a list of providers be easily available to each and every shopper. If that entailed risk for them, so be it. I think it outrageous that insurers were allowed to still be negotiating with providers as people were signing up. Especially as they were already given assurances of government backup about risk! That should have been their risk: put together a solid product and try to sell it. Not gather a group of unwitting insured and try to use that group of unwitting to beat down providers on price with the number they had gathered!
People would be a lot happier, much better word-of-mouth, if they knew what they were buying. I am a bit negative about the first year reaction getting any better, because I think a lot of people have no idea what they bought. If they purposely chose to have a low-cost very narrow network, they wouldn't complain, they'd be happy. If you want to expand business by word of mouth, you want to make sure that those that buy first aren't buying a pig in a poke. Or you purposely advertise: this is a beta offering, we're looking for input on how to better our business, you are transparent that it's a risk to be a customer until problems are cleared up.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 2:59pm
All I can say is, you must not have lived through the politics before, during, and now after the roll out. You don't like politics, so perhaps all the hoopla has passed you by.
Interesting in that the word I heard was that CT was expensive, so folks were complaining the plans weren't "affordable," which I guess depends on your pocketbook. I went through VA, which didn't have an exchange, and it was EASY to see which providers were attached to a plan. It was right there. The formulary wasn't, but the providers most definitely were.
As far as buying a pig in a poke, this experience was no worse, and in many respects much better than what it replaced, and I've been shopping for individual insurance, really since the 1970s all by my lonesome in all manner of ways.
For one thing, I knew up front that 10 clearly defined essential services had to be covered. Never had that before; always had to pore over dense benefits brochures and figure out what terms like "hospital" covered and didn't cover and how much $1 million of benefits would buy.
I had three times the number of plans to choose from as I had in the three previous decades. There were helpful explanations of "technical" terms like deductible and copay, none of which existed when I first started out. The big problems, like exclusions and caps, had been cleared out. Mental health was finally included at a reasonable level.
And I could choose either to zero out my deductible or reduce my premium by about 75% over what I had been paying. And I could put the plans side by side.
Unless, of course, that meant there many too few companies in the exchanges. Then folks would have been saying: "They want me to shop in an exchange, but there are no companies in the exchange."
Yes, the jury remains out on Obamacare. It's what? Six months old. LOL.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 5:30pm
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 12:05am
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 12:12am
Let's say Obamacare dies. What happens then?
by Ramona on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 8:43am
To some degree, it depends on who takes the blame for the fall-out, e.g., old rules coming back into effect, a new wave of policyholders having their plans axed.
If there's serious chaos, then the people will beseech the government to step in even more heavily to protect people.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 8:49am
I don't really believe it's going to fail completely, but the pushback from the insurance companies tells me their glee would be unending if Obamacare was repealed. And of course their subscribers would be worse off than they are now.
Can it be fixed? I'm pretty sure it can be, but the road ahead is always going to be littered with naysayers and obstructionists. The question is, how do we fix it when the few who want to try are outnumbered by the many who want to see it destroyed?
by Ramona on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 3:34pm
These adjustments to the ACA are creating so much "ambiguity" that the whole program is rapidly becoming a farce. I especially like the ludicrous news that the Gov will exempt the homeless from the mandate, as if the Gov could or would chase down the local Bag Lady and extract their pound of flesh from her scrawny person. The death in the family exemption may have unintended results as some people may decide that Grandpa is worth more dead than alive. Even with these exemptions about 40 million people will still be liable for these fines.
by Peter (not verified) on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 12:55pm
"as if the Gov could or would chase down the local Bag Lady and extract their pound of flesh from her scrawny person. "
Probably not the gov but I would not be at all surprised to soon read that private purveyors of medical services and insurance soon figure out how to milk the new system by doing something like capturing her.
by EmmaZahn on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 1:48pm
I do believe the law is actually designed so that the private insurers providing Medicaid (in expansion states, of course) will want to track down scrawny homeless ladies. As long as they're relatively healthy scrawny homeless ladies, of course. As an insurer, you'd want to leave the overweight ones with diabetes and the drug addicts for the social workers to sign up, hoping they might not have the time to find too many of them.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 2:10pm
a reminder: Candidate Obama Opposed Health Care Mandate
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 5:14pm
Yes he did!
But you should add that, being an independent thinker and willing to change his views when good arguments were made, he changed his mind on this--and actually never hid that fact. And the ACA's stance on this issue has been clear since the beginning-- demagogued, but clear.
This link appears to have been furnished by the GOP. It has very little news value. The GOP trying to make hay with a bit of news that's over 8 years old? Couldn't. happen.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 5:34pm
The link is a year old, and one I just grabbed for its title from a very quick google search. I was I that was thinking that thought, not some political cabal's current spin.
Why do you always suspect political motives behind every comment? Do you realize that when you do that, suspect that every little point someone makes or article someone posts is spinning for political motives, that makes me suspect that most of your comments are intended to be spin? And that you suspect others because you do it yourself?
I am not a political operative. I do not want to be a political operative. I do not want to play one on the internet. Period. When I complain about or praise something or point something out, or analyze something, it is honest, I have no further goals behind what I am doing/saying.
Yes, by posting this, I intended to suggest that maybe Obama himself is not so bothered by these changes regarding the mandate. But just suggesting because the thought came to me, nobody planted it.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 5:54pm
The only thing I'll say here for the record is that you accused me of being a political operative, not the other way around.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 9:15pm
willing to change his views when good arguments were made, he changed his mind on this
It was a shitty idea when Heritage came p with it to beat Hilarycare, it was a shitty idea when it became Romneycare, and it's still a shitty idea. It's just a " protect the carriers" workaround to avoid providing a quality product that can compete on its own against the profit driven alternative...
by jollyroger on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 6:02pm
In what sense? It's generally viewed as a success in MA where uninsured numbers plummeted to under 5%. I've also seen figures showing that insurance premiums in the individual market dropped year over year by about 40%.
Yes, it's not Medicare For All...nor is it VA For All (which, as we've seen, is quite a bit more expensive than good ole Medicaid, which this law expands). When do you figure those were going to happen? How many people were going to have to go how many years without coverage before those things happened?
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 7:22pm
Sometimes shitty policies are the only politically viable ideas--we've been all around that bush multiple times, have we not?
What the fuck, let's go back in time to WWII and remove the wage freeze, so we never get employer based insurance, and we could be NHS...(better yet. back to 1781, lose at *Yorktown, and we could be Canada!)
*Edit to add, "Damn you, Rochambeau!"
Edit to further add, you're crazy as to medicaid being cheaper than VA for all, were it to serve the same population...
by jollyroger on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 7:35pm
Yes, we have. But having lost many birds by trying to put my hand in their bush at the same time, I've learned to appreciate the is-ness of what I have now.
Meaning, if I can keep my premium stable, get better coverage, and drop my deductible to $0 with what I have now, I still might support VA For All or Medicare For All, but I'm not going to throw what I have out of bed for eating crackers.
Or because there are "problems," even serious problems.
Had we stayed with England, we might have gotten rid of slavery earlier, yes?
I gave you figures from the government on the relative costs of Medicaid and VA. You have not given me figures supporting your hypothesis...or else I missed them.
All kidding and all polemics aside...
Unless we take an MMT approach which sort of allows the government to spend whatever it wants, then the ultimate problem is the cost of health care. This doesn't go away with Medicare For All nor with VA For All.
Almost all the problems AA has been cataloguing are less a function of ACA than of the government and country grappling with how to pay for health care. (This is some of the dishonesty in her threads.) Narrowing of provider lists, Medicare cut backs, doctors dropping out etc., etc., was all going on prior to the ACA, which is simply an attempt to address the challenge and soften the impact for individuals within the private system we have. But as AA has noted, the problem doesn't go away when the insurer is the government. And it won't go away with VA For All.
In fact, VA For All, the government, is the ultimate cost controller when everyone in the health care industry becomes a government employee. If you're worried about "choice," which AA seems to be for some reason, but which I consider to be a largely bogus issue, then the VA offers NO choice. Choice is something the private market provides. Once bureaucrats set the rules choice goes innuendo.
Ever been on a chow line? You get to see any doctor you want as long as she works for the government. Personally, I don't mind as long as she good. And there's no reason to say I couldn't choose from among a long list of government doctors.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 8:04pm
Outcomes, son, outcomes.
Was it not YOU who came with the article from the ecnomist.
BTW, when it comes to cost control, you are not (I hope) going to seriously argue that there is anything better than single provider, are you? (wait, maybe you conceded that already in the post to which I am responding--TLDR....)
Edit to add: I have already, elsewhere, posited an expanded and federalized Medicaid coupled with expanded vocational school access to provide the needed personnel...sadly, it never made it out of committee...
by jollyroger on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 8:12pm
Yes I did. It showed that Medicaid was more cost-effective per patient than the VA. As we sit here. Why would be the thing to delve into.
Yes, theoretically, single provider should be able to control costs just by sitting on them and not allowing them to go up.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 9:12pm
Here's the thing: We have basically three choices.
• All private.
• Hybrid private/public
• All public.
I'm not sure any countries have all private systems. This is basically the libertarian desideratum, and they claim, without evidence, that it would work best.
The hybrid system is what we have and most countries have. We're weighted more heavily toward the private than most Western countries. Even Medicare and Medicaid are hybrids: The government pays but the private sector (more or less) provides.
Then there's the all-public system, like the NHS and VA For All. Of course, even there, you do have private enterprise. Most of the wealthy people in the UK buy their private insurance or self-insure and go to see their Harley Street doctors.
In a hybrid system you have a tension between public and private that is a feature, not a bug. So Obama, in fact, was NOT lying when he said that if you like your insurance policy you can keep it. The only party that can decide which insurance policy you get to keep is your insurance company. It can't uninsure you, and it has to provide you with 10 essential benefits, but it can change your policy. It's a private company that simply has to obey new rules. The ACA is the new book of rules, but it doesn't provide the insurance.
Saying Obama lied is like saying: He told us we could our cars with any kind of gas we wanted and then wouldn't let us fill our cars with leaded gasoline. Well no, you can't do that, even if you've been doing so up to the minute that leaded gas was banded. You can, of course, fill your car with any sort of gas that ExxonMobil et al are willing to sell you (that also meets federal regulations).
You might have caught this little bit of (humorous) nonsense that went something like this: Horrors! When convicts get released from prison they can't get Medicaid. The ACA isn't fixing this! Then, the next day, when this was fixed at warp speed and prisoners got Medicaid inside prison as well as after their release, it was: Horrors! The private sector is pigging out at the public trough! All concern for the prisoners and their health seemingly had vanished as the new complaint blotted it out.
Now the complaint is that scrawny ladies are going to get Medicaid. Why? Because someone is profiting from it. Why? Because we have a hybrid public/private system. The details can be tricky to work out and the solution isn't elegant--hybrid solutions aren't--but, at the moment, it has a BIG advantage over fantasy plans, IMO.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 9:06pm
Here's a non fantasy system with fantastic results.
In Cuba, they have roughly three times as many doctors per capita as we, and they pay them roughly 150% of the pay for bus drivrs (possibly recognizing the crucial role of bus driving in keeping you alive, who knows...?)
Of course, the private part of the hybrid is really, really, teeny--(that's why its called Communism).
by jollyroger on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 9:22pm
Well, being Jewish, I'm genetically inclined to be a communist. As I've gotten older, I've gradually moved a bit away from Karl Marxism toward Groucho Marxism, but I can still give you 19 year-olds a run for your money.
Here's the thing: I bought a hybrid, but I'll be happy to buy an all-electric when it's ready for prime time.
In the meantime, perhaps we should chip in and send AA and Emma down to Havana on a medical fact-finding mission and have them report back. Just to make sure Michael wasn't just selling us a bunch of political swill.
by Peter Schwartz on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 9:49pm
one word: Tesla...(0-60 in 3.5 seconds....to quote the Honorable Speaker, "Are ya kiddin' me?"
Edit to add: Just before I met her, Baby and her then-fiance made the Cuban trip via some casino island off the coast of Mexico (name escapes me, but the trip was without misadventure...)...send me the collection, I'll go.
Plus, I'm connected--my late first cousin once removed was married to Fidel's girlfriend's sister (does that make him some kind of n-brother-in-law?)
by jollyroger on Sat, 03/15/2014 - 11:12pm
Yes, I covet one, but my resources force me to wait for the Volksla.
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 03/16/2014 - 7:07pm
While I am there I will check out their microgrid electrical system, too.
I really would like to visit Cuba before the crowds rush in. Love Art Deco architecture. I would like to see how well it survived before it is modernized.
by EmmaZahn on Sun, 03/16/2014 - 12:19am
Yes!
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 03/16/2014 - 7:10pm