MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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Hits of the Day
Bernie Backers Attack
By barefooted on Fri, 09/08/2017 - 12:21pm |Prominent Democrats are increasingly riled by attacks from Bernie Sanders' supporters, whose demands for ideological purity are hurting the party ahead of the 2018 midterms and 2020 presidential election, they say.
But it’s not just the outside agitators that Democratic lawmakers, operatives, and activists are annoyed with: They’re tired of what they see as the senator’s hesitance to confront his own backers, either in public or through back channels.
URL:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/08/bernie-backers-attacks-infuriate-democrats-242386
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Comments
Just another day in Demo-land . . .
Bernie and His Bots Go BOOM!
They only bash those who are a threat to their purity test.
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Fri, 09/08/2017 - 2:29pm
Vaal calls for Democrat purity, Bernie cannot be asked to starve Vaal!
by NCD on Fri, 09/08/2017 - 3:32pm
NCD... Yup...
It's been two years of this crap...
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Fri, 09/08/2017 - 3:51pm
Roughly 12% of Bernie Supporters voted for Trump.others voted for third party candidates or abstained. The majority of Bernie supporters voted for Hillary. Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat. Sanders is an old white guy who will not change. Hidden in the data of Sanders-Trump voters is that almost 50% do not believe that whites have advantages over blacks.The majority of Bernie supporters voted for the Democratic candidate, Hillary Clinton. Democrats need to focus on Sanders-Clinton voters. There will always be disrupters. The disrupters are like the Freedom Caucus in the Republican Party. They would rather see the country suffer than make any compromise.
Link to Sanders-Trump article
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-e...
Of Voters who voted for Obama then switched to Trump over Hillary, only 17% say they will vote for a Democrat in 2018. 41 % are unsure. 36% of Obama voters who voted for a third party candidate plan to vote for a Democrat in the midterms.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-obama-supporters-poll_us_59afe...
Racial resentment was a major major predictor of Obama-Trump voter
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/upshot/the-obama-trump-voters-are-rea...
Paper cited in the NYT article.
http://people.umass.edu/schaffne/schaffner_et_al_trump.pdf
Race was a factor in Sanders-Trump voting and Obama-Trump voting. Democrats have their core of white voters. Democrats have the majority of Sanders voters. Democrats have the vote of most minority groups. It is time for Democrats to solidify their base. Sanders will not reign in his hardcore supporters. Democrats need to give their base a reason to come out and vote. They cannot waste time on hard to retrieve voters. People who voted for Trump made a conscious decision to put a racist in the White House.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 09/08/2017 - 3:09pm
I want them to come back. And some of them will if we don't make them feel unwelcome.
Come home , guys! Been waiting for you.
by Flavius on Fri, 09/08/2017 - 10:31pm
We have to feed and nurture the base Democrats have. It is arrogant to believe that Sanders-Trump and Obama-Trump voters will magically return to the Democratic Party if they become dissatisfied with Trump. Many will opt for third parties or stay home.
People vote their values over economics. Poor and middle class whites vote against their economic interest when they vote Republican. These voters agree with the Republican view of law and order, sexuality, and Christianity. They ignore connections to Russia, white supremacy/Nazis and voter suppression. They vote their values.
Wealthy Democrats vote against their own economic interests (tax cuts) to support social justice. They vote their values over economics. If Democrats fall for the cries to abandon identity politics (meaning support for minorities, gay people, etc.), they will lose groups important in forming the Democratic base. They will abandon identity politics for white identity politics. They will lose themselves.
It was folly to think that Ivanka Trump would be a counterbalance to her father. It is not reasonable to think that Sanders-Trump and Obama-Trump voters will not cost the Democratic Party its soul.
The programs that Trump wants to destroy Obamacare, DACA, Title IX protections, voting rights, etc. were all enacted by Democrats. Sanders-Trump and Obama-Trump voters knowingly put these programs at risk. Screw 'em. They are as worthless as Ivanka.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 09/08/2017 - 11:17pm
They vote.
by Flavius on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 12:54am
Well said.
by artappraiser on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 7:16am
Most will not be voting for Democrats.
Many have racial bias. What message will you use to change their minds that will not alienate minority voters? Joy Ann Reid notes that Democrats are the Party of aligned people, Insteadof working to register their base, they want to go after people who aveabandoned the party.
https://thedailybanter.com/2017/09/joy-ann-reid-nails-the-problem-with-t...
Te racist tendencies of Trump voters has been shown repeatedly
http://www.theroot.com/study-a-picture-of-a-black-person-can-anger-trump...
The quest for these voters will result in the same disappointment as hoping Ivanka was a savior. The only way to regain these voters is to appeal to their racist tendencies.
Mark Lilla's The Once and Future Liberal: After Identity Politics lays out the proposal being debated among Democratic Party leadership. Minorities will be thrown under the bus.
https://www.amazon.com/Once-Future-Liberal-Identity-Politics-ebook/dp/B0...
Edit to add:
Trump won the white vote in multiple age groups, both genders, and at multiple economic levels. Ta-Nehishi Coates take on the election is must reading.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-pre...
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 9:04am
The point is one shouldn't have to be courted to vote. If one doesn't like the candidates available one should field some more to their liking. I'm lazy about getting involved in the choices available, so I do the hold the nose thing but I vote. I really find a threat of staying home not just stupid but offensive. Those who stay home because they don't like the quality of the pandering they are getting, they really deserve Trump type results.
For chrissakes, in theory, we shouldn't like that our elected officials are pandering to one group over another, they should be doing what they think is right. It's unfortunate that it works that way. That it does makes it all the more important that people don't have to be begged to vote.
by artappraiser on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 9:21am
I find your lack of understanding that if people feel their interests are being neglected by party leadership so that a less loyal voting group can be rewarded offensive. Democrats need to be working to counter voter suppression and actively working to GOTV in minority communities.we are not post racial. Post racial means that we are working under a form of white identity politics. Note the failure of Bernie Sanders to attract minority voters. Economics will not solve the issues. Wealthy blacks are Democrats because they are voting based on social justice not economics. If they voted economics, they would hold their noses and vote for tax cuts.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 9:48am
Those who chose to stay home will always be marginalized, you have to prove you're willing to vote to even be pandered to. Here's an extreme example: Hasidic communities in NY state get all kinds of pandering because they deliver their vote as a block. Politicians pander to people who vote, it's just that simple.
You just have it so backwards, you talk as if people who form the political parties are the boss man, and everyone else just has to sit and back and wait on the couch until the boss man panders to you. If you don't like what the party available offers, get active in it and change it. The Bernie supporters didn't get appointed by some boss man, they are volunteers trying to change the party. Those who don't like their views can do the same thing. The boss men of the political party are the activists and the registered members. They are not the elected government, they are members of a political party trying to effect what the elected government becomes. You confuse the two. First step is voting! And getting active in a party if you want to change it, not sitting on the couch and waiting for them to come to you.
by artappraiser on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 10:17am
Laughable.Black Democrats voted. Their interests are being ignored to go on a snipe hunt for white voters. If blacks feel disrespected, they will stay home. Boycotts are effective. Trump voters will come to the Democratic Party in large enough numbers to offset the black voters who stay home. When department stores would not let black customers sit at lunch counters, boycotts changed that practice. South Carolina found the backbone to remove the Confederate flag from state grounds when boycotts were threatened. Not patronizing an organization that does not respond to your demands after you have been loyal to that organization sends a powerful message.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 10:31am
Boycotts work with private businesses when they affect their bottom line. Threats to boycott the voting booth don't work and had nothing to do with the removal of the confederate flag in SC. Do you actually think the republican governor of SC cares if blacks don't vote? What % of the black vote did Nikki Haley get? If she actually thought that blacks would boycott the voting booth over the confederate flag she'd have passed a law requiring it at all state and county government buildings.
It takes a ridiculous level of intellectual discontinuity to constantly advocate fighting the republican voter suppression laws while also advocating that blacks willingly do exactly what the republican voter suppression laws are intended to do, stop blacks from voting.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 2:37pm
I figured you would chime in. Blacks are willing to vote as long as they feel they are taken seriously by the Democratic Party. If the Democratic Party goes the identity politics route, blacks can voice there displeasure by staying home. Their interests were not going to be addressed anyway. In addition, the Democratic Party would be openly stating they view whites as more important than blacks. This would be the same message sent by the Republican Party. Sanders has made it clear that he does not respect black votes and has not budged from his view on identity politics.
Blacks were kicked out of the GOP by Barry Goldwater. Putting Bernie Sanders economics only program in practice would alienate many blacks. BernieBros can feel free to attack Kampala Harris. Blacks can feel free to stay home. The rationale for staying home is that neither party is going to address your issues. Tweedle-dee vs. Tweedle-dum. Democrats reached out to whites in the failed Unity tour. Democrats have reached out to the black community with the same dismissive attitude as Donald Trump. Trump asks, "What do you have to lose?". Democrats say, "What other option do you have?". Neither is attractive.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 3:10pm
Don't vote, I don't care. I'm so angry and cynical that Trump became president that I don't give a shit. I'm 60 years old now and the younger generations will have to solve these problems, or not. The good news for you is that your signature issue, voter suppression, will be solved if blacks stop voting. Republicans won't bother passing laws to stop you from voting if you willingly cooperate by choosing to not vote without the laws.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 3:31pm
Democrats are worried more about combating identity politics than attacking voter suppression. Local groups are fighting battles in the courts. The national Democratic Party is focused on appealing to white voters than addressing social justice. Whites, we are told, are tired of hearing about race, therefore voter suppression is not a major issue for the Democratic Party. I am not the source of the problem. If Democrats are not going to fight this battle, they have only themselves to blame when blacks stay home. Fighting voter suppression focuses us on race, and race issues are not popular, hence the term identity politics
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 3:45pm
Well there you have it. Then don't vote or vote for a third party. Work to form The Black Lives Matter Party that promises everything you want. One of the two major parties will celebrate and donate large amounts of cash to help you get your third party formed.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 6:31pm
The white voters the Democrats want to chase are just as willing as the Republicans to ignore issues important to blacks. I don't understand why people are surprised that black voters feel abandoned by the Democrats yet are very willing to address "white" issues. I'm simply pointing out the obvious. Blacks don't think either party takes them seriously. As I noted, Democratic leadership was eager to do outreach to whites (Perez-Sanders) while at the same time debate if black issues are a burden (identity politics).
Edit to add:
Instead of addressing the fact that police abuse persists, people attack Black Lives Matter and Colin Kaepernick. Now we have NFL player Michael Bennett, who also protests police abuse, with Las Vegas police placing a gun to his head. Of course, body cameras were not active. Obviously, BLM is the problem and should be the butt of jokes.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/09/08/missing-michael-ben...
The fact that black voters are disenchanted with Democrats is no secret.
https://www.thenation.com/article/are-black-voters-invisible-to-democrats/
https://thinkprogress.org/democrats-need-better-deal-for-people-of-color...
http://www.theroot.com/stop-playing-impeachment-is-not-a-black-political...
Blacks are tired of being ignored. The response to dissatisfied white voters is outreach. The response to dissatisfied black voters is to call them fools. Black will vote if Democrats decide to talk to them. Blacks vote overwhelmingly for Democrats. It is idiotic to tell them that they are not worth the effort to encourage going to the voting booth.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 8:06pm
What is your point? I've already said if you don't want to vote then don't vote. You're getting no argument from me. You can't seriously think democrats are going to kiss your ass if you threaten to boycott the voter booth. Don't vote and don't let the door hit you in the ass when you leave the democratic party. See how that works out for you.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 8:43pm
The point is that white voters will not return to the Democratic Party based on an economic message. If blacks stay home, the party will do actual outreach to retrieve black voters. If Democrats don't address issues important to blacks while welcoming white voters, why would blacks not object?
Edit to add:
As noted in the Nation article, Democrats get 80% of the votes of people of color. If turnout among people of color, Democrats need only 37% of the vote to win the Presidency. Democrats need to pay attention to their base. Let us see what happens to the Democratic Party if people of color are not encouraged to GOTV.
https://www.thenation.com/article/are-black-voters-invisible-to-democrats/
2nd Edit to add:
The level of anger directed at black protest is amazing. Kaepernick, Bennett, and Black Lives Matter are criticized for not having the "right" approach to police abuse. This is a diversion from the fact that police departments are resistant to confronting the issue. BLM cannot magically correct police abuse. Blacks feel neglected by Democrats and are criticized for nothing having the "right" approach to the problem. They support the party with their voters and then are told they should not expect to have their "asses kissed". Really? You support a party and are called irrational for saying that we won't support you in the future because you refuse to fight for our issues.
The level of anger proves a point about some so-called Progressives.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 9:51pm
Object all you want. Complain, bitch, moan. But tell me you're going to boycott the voting booth my answer is go ahead. Good luck with that. Since you've decided you're not part of the democratic party and you're not planning on voting I don't see how you have a say in what the party decides. Take those issues to the republicans or a third party.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 10:56pm
Democratic leadership has not responded to actual votes being cast. Black voters have no say in what the party decides now. Blacks would be losing nothing.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 11:08pm
Ok then. Makes no difference if the AG is Sessions or Holder. In 2020 there will be another election. Vote for Trump and give him a more solid republican majority in the congress. Blacks will be losing nothing.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 12:19am
"Putting Bernie Sanders economics only program in practice would alienate many blacks." How would it do this? Which aspects of Bernie's economics program do you believe would alienate blacks? Or, is it your contention that Bernie is only focused on economics? If so, why do you believe that?
As I have noted here on numerous occasions, Black Lives Matter opined that, of the agendas of all the candidates running, Bernie's matched theirs best. Shaun King was a staunch Bernie supporter. Ta-Nehisi Coates preferred him in the primaries. These are two men - especially Coates - who focus primarily on police violence and discrimination and less so on class.
by HSG on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 10:33am
Shaun King is rather a weirdo - I wouldn't expect he holds a lot of sway in the black community.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 10:35am
Hal, this discussion occurred in 2016. Sanders will be too old to run in 2020. The image black voters have of Bernie supporters today is their attack on Kamala Harris. Black voters think Sanders supporters are irrational. Sanders is tone deaf on issues of race. Not many in the black community are listening anymore. Eyes glaze when he says "Millionaires and Billionaires".
Elizabeth Warren seems to have more empathy
2015 speech on police abuse
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/09/27/elizabet...
Warren was bulocked from presenting Coretta Scott King's letter to Congress when Speaking to block Beauregard Sessions as AG. She persisted.
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/elizabeth-warren-sessions-silence-...
Noting that racism stymies economic growth in the black community
https://www.boston.com/news/politics/2017/08/28/elizabeth-warren-racism-...
Sanders cannot make inroads in the black community. Warren seems more in tune.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 10:59am
I'll try one more time RMRD then I'll move on. You wrote: "Putting Bernie Sanders economics only program in practice would alienate many blacks." Could you please explain which aspects of Bernie's economics program would alienate blacks and why? Are you thinking it's his bill for single-payer health care which Kamala Harris is co-sponsoring? How about tuition-free public colleges and universities? Is that something that is likely to alienate blacks? Is it his constant refrain that "free trade" has harmed our poor, working, and middle-class while enriching the affluent and empowering the powerful?
by HSG on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 11:19am
Hal, Sanders comes across as tone deaf on issues of race. His persistent focus on the economic side is a flaw. I noted that Elizabeth Warren has insight into the impact of race. It is Sanders himself that is alienating. See 2016 posts.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 11:47am
Except that Bernie doesn't only focus on race as I pointed out in my penultimate post before this one. He got BLM's highest rating of any 2016 candidate, was supported by folks like Shaun King and former NAACP Chair Ben Jealous, and got Ta-Nehisi Coates' vote. Also, if he is so alienating why does he have a 73% approval rating among African-Americans overall and how did he narrowly win African American voters under-30, and easily beat Hillary among young Hispanics? If a multi-ethnic, multi-generational Democratic Party is going to have a future, it would seem it will have to embrace the policies articulated by a 76-year old Jewish guy from a nearly lily-white state.
by HSG on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 12:06pm
If that keeps you happy, then be happy.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 12:11pm
Rmrd's plaint is simple: "we blacks vote en bloc maybe 93% and make up maybe 25% of the Democratic vote, but we get little attention when it comes to policy and appointments - what do we do?"
Bernie supporters rage and threaten walkouts, and get prime seats at the convention, and then have middling turnout, but it's Blacks who get called babies for suggesting they could use this tactic, which I'm sure reinforces their disgruntlement.
More Hispanics don't vote than vote, and only 2/3 went D/Hillary, yet they're still largely the Future of the Party(TM) with a ton of outrage over DACA repeal, while cops killing black suspects and non-suspects? Not so much (and get away from the TV set, you're messing up my football game).
So blacks shouldn't stay home - but what should they do? They're marginalized across the South and in states like Wisconsin. They can't fight all these disenfranchisement issues largely condoned or ineffectively shindered by GOp-packed benches. Protest just brings scorn. So then what? Just smile and step and fetch it, vote purty anyway?
Here's a nice PEW piece on voting. Trump/Russians/Facebook inspired the white loony vote revival. How do we depress white loony votes and revive white non-deplorable//black/hispanic/asian vote.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 12:20am
Of what a convention has to offer blacks got just as much as any other faction. Nobody got much out of eight years of the Obama presidency. He wasted the first 4 years sucking up to the republicans begging for just one vote please so he could pretend he was the bipartisan president. So I'm not surprised to see rmrd emulating his weak kneed no backbone hero by threatening to stop voting. It's all the same? Fuck him. I hope he's happy with Trump and Sessions. I said exactly the same thing to the Nader voters. Fuck em. They weren't happy with the team hope they like the war in Iraq.
I supported BLM protests even though I think they're a bunch of clueless fools with no agenda and no tactics. Once you tell me they're all the same and threaten to boycott the voter booth my answer is fuck em. Don't vote. See what that gets you.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 12:59am
The administrators give you free reign to be vulgar. I have said on multiple occasions I will be voting. I will vote despite the realization that people like you and your BFF are in the party. I offer a warning. The rational Democratic Party response to complaints would be to do outreach in the black community. Instead, they are discussing identity politics. The situation for blacks is different than for these-called white working class. Whites are being courted. Blacks are not only being ignored, they are being told that focus on their issues is costing them more important white votes.
When "only" 80% of black voters in Ohio supported the Democratic Presidential candidate, blacks were blamed for the loss. The white vote for the Democratic candidate was no where near a majority vote, yet blacks were singled out as the problem. Blacks are now being blamed for chasing away white voters. No matter what happens, blacks will be blamed for a loss.
The anger expressed by some so-called Progressives confirms the impressions of many blacks. Ta-Nehishi Coates article should be required reading.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/the-first-white-pre...
Edit to add:
If I respond in kind to your post, I get hit with a TOS warning.
2nd Edit to add:
Current Democratic leadership is openly debating identity politics. They are disrespecting black voters in public. This not not an "Obama did it too" situation. Obama saw the negative responses to comments on Professor Gate's arrest and Trayvon Martin's homicide. This is Apple's and oranges..
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 10:10am
I don't see anything needing TOS, whether it comes from him or you. In the past things have gotten personal - so far this time they haven't. Keep it up, & now come out fighting!!!
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 10:12am
I have been pulled over when I respond with "Fuck you too". But if rules have change, I'll address the nitwit directly.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 10:17am
The rules didn't change - "fuck you" & "fuck you too" are both out of bounds. Don't make it too personal and all's cool.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 10:21am
So "mindless twit" is out of bounds?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 10:24am
Oh God, please...? If I'd wanted to be a Jr. High gym coach, I probably could have been.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 10:37am
Just having fun.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 10:41am
You claimed several times during the election you'd be voting. You threatened several times in this thread that you and other black people would boycott the voting booth. Which is it? Frankly I don't know since you pick what ever position suits you in the moment.
When a candidate loses everyone gets the blame especially when the loss is close. I've seen articles blaming black non voters, Sanders non voters, Sanders attacks on Hillary, white working class, facebook, misogynists, racists, Comey etc. Considering that 78 thousand votes out of 120 million cast would have shifted the electoral college a good case can be made to blame any faction and some author on some web site has made that case. Blacks aren't some special case signaled out for blame. Assignment of blame and outrage about the assignment of blame affects every faction. You're upset that some writers blame black non voters, the Sanders supporters are upset that some authors blame them for Trump, Comey claimed he is "aghast" at the thought that he might have affected the election, Zuckerberg said it was "a pretty crazy idea" that fake news on facebook influenced the election.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 1:59pm
I have written several times about identity politics and that blacks voters were not happy with Democrats. I will be voting.
Black voters did not see outreach in 2016. They saw Perez and Sanders begging for white votes post-election. There has not been outreach to black communities. Along with the lack of outreach, blacks see Democrats questioning whether social justice should be a major focus. Democrats can either spend money doing outreach in the black community, or they can take the angry, screw you approach you suggest. Hopefully, the Democrats won't be as dumb as you want them to be.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 4:10pm
I thunk you're taking a bit of a white perspective on this. Blacks overwhelmingly put Obama in office and got massive mortgage foreclosures and more redlining and stop-and-frisk as their reward, with a black-focused jobs program a bridge too far while trillions for Wall Street wasn't. Last year Hillary's romp through the South was "irrelevant" - just the usual blacks voting, wouldn't mean nuttin' in the primaries. Hispanics? Yeah, brown is the new black, except millennials are the new black. In fact everyone seems to be the new black except the blacks we count on to vote Dem rain or shine. Flyover whites and the Bundies even?
There are huge cases of gerrymandering around black voters, like in Florida, like the "black belt" in southern Alabama, like the North Carolina bit that got overturned by the Supreme Court but without any remedies imposed after 5 or 6 years (or 8? Lost track) of fighting. Hell, where were Obama and Holder on that, on massive police abuse that spawned BLM? And I get where no-drama Obama comes from - no one's going to back him, so why waste political capital? a guy not saluting the flag is more problematic than a black guy tossed in the back of a police van and having his back broken, or a dozen smart phone videos showing police excess. And hey, if blacks don't vote 95% for the Dem candidate, they get blamed for the result, rather than the large number of white men and women who gave Trump a majority. If we can't close Gitmo under Obama, what other basics will be too damn tuff?
Yes I thought the 20 year old "superpredator" crap was stupid, but I don't blame blacks for being pissed and calculating that being serious abd voting doesn't help when the majority of white asshats can't get it together, and 20,000 obsolete West Virginia coal miners are more important than 40 million or so black folk. Yeah, not voting may be stupid, but there's so much of teh stupid going around, it's hard to figure out where's the head and where's the taail.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 11:36am
When Samuel Gompers was asked "What does Labor want ?" ,he answered "More".
Seems about right to me.
by Flavius on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 11:57am
Blacks overwhelmingly put Obama in office
That is my only point. If they all vote, they can do that. Whether it was a good result or not was not what I was getting into. Nobody had to beg them to vote.
Rmrd is always threatening they are going to stay home because of this or that and it's all the Dem party's fault. As if all blacks are children. They have the power to affect the Dem party, the primary results and the country's election results if they so chose. If they stay home, they don't.
I'm really tired of this GOTV problem that's happened my whole life! People shouldn't have to be bribed to vote. Ready to see it required in the country. The results would be incredibly different, even with gerrymandering as it is.
by artappraiser on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 12:24pm
You are dismissive. If Democratic leadership is dismissive, Democrats will lose. That you see blacks as children if they don't vote is telling. Here are the issues at play.
1. After the election loss, identity politics was identified as the problem by some Democrats. Taking on black issues was seen as a proble. Why wouldn't blacks have a negative response to that argument?
2. Some argue that things would be better if we didn't talk about race all the time. Blacks would point out that they focus on race because they are under active assault.Voter suppression is just one example.
https://thinkprogress.org/2016-a-case-study-in-voter-suppression-258b5f9...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/06/30/why-we-shou...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/voter-suppression-is-the-civil-r...
Why wouldn't blacks not be vocal about this political attack?
Blacks and Hispanics are directed to high risk home loans. Why wouldn't they complain about disparities?
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/blacks-hispanics-mo...
Why would blacks be unenthusiastic about a political party whose members suggest that talking about race chases white voters away and offer downplaying race as the solution?
Why would blacks find credibility in a political party whose members suggested NYC was post racial. Why wouldn't blacks find a person who ignored the fact that police turned their backs on Mayor DeBlasio when he suggested that he feared for his son during an encounter with police?
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/scores-nypd-cops-turn-backs-de-blasi...
Blacks would also find NYC post racial given the choking death of Earl Garner and the need for court intervention to halt Stop and Frisk. Only a delusion person would see NYC as post racial. Why would blacks want to be in a party filled with people with those opinions.
Blacks are not children. They would make the adult observation that both parties criticize identity politics when it comes to blacks, but have no problem promoting the white identity politics of Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders.
We are definitely not post racial and we are definitely not spending enough time on issues of race.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 2:52pm
I don't see anywhere that she treats Blacks as children.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 4:41pm
We have different interpretations of her comments.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 6:38pm
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 4:47pm
It's over. The lecturing to Sanders and his supporters should stop now. Given the election result, I'm more than willing to give any Sanders supporter who voted for Clinton the right to say, "Guys, we tried it your way..."
by Michael Maiello on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 4:13pm
"Tried it your way"? There's so much obliviousness to that statement. How much of Bernie's popularity was due to Facebook and other propaganda? How much of Hillary's loss was due to voter disenfranchisement and influenced by gerrymandering? How much "hold my nose" was expressed in showing just how unpalatable that vote was, and how much did same people participate in spreading fake news like the Seth Rich myth? I recall not conceding, making a flareup at the convention (including removing Debbie Wasserman-Schultz as if Hillary appointed her or even liked her), and then spending most energy in the fall protesting some goddam pipeline in North Dakota rather than beating down Trump. Next time they can "try it your way" FUCKING HARDER. The way grownups do when their candidate loses and there's a dangerous opponent running.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 4:33pm
Now that jackoff Zuckerberg is feeling all enabled, thinking Trump's popularity had nothing to do with his scam machine.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 4:40pm
Except... I'm coming around to the view that Bernie would have won. Hillary really screwed up.
by Michael Maiello on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 6:04pm
Well, congrats for you. I disagree on both points. Even with that damned email server, I can imagine what the previous 6 years would have been like if the conservative freaks had gotten even more FOIA action off it. And more, the Bernie fans have never explained how he would have fought the fake news and overcome his weaknesses, and the fact that Trump had easily blown out a field of Republican pols. So a few polls 6 months in advance said Bernie could win? Hell, the polls 2 days ahead said Hillary would win. Tell me something convincing for a change. Bernie got what, 1, 2 Congressional endorsements over his campaign? Great, that bodes well for getting things done. So he did better than expected in California, but still lost by a million votes or so. And that's in liberal la-la land. In flyover country, Bernie would have been like a piñata once Republican money stopped supporting him and turned against him. This wasn't Obama being whoever people wanted him to be. This was a socialist trying to pitch free college to people who now hate college, pitching single payer to people who've trained themselves to hate any healthcare solutions, As for Hillary, she was screwed much much more than screwed up. What makes Democrats and liberl Independents accept that is beyond me, but shall we also blame Obama for letting Republicans steal his Supreme Court pick, and tell me how he should have fought back. These are the quandaries any serious Dem candidate has to deal with. Bernie was just never that serious, so they could use him in other ways.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 6:41pm
Sanders would have been labeled a Socialist turning off many white voters. He would not have pulled as many minority votes as Hillary did. All his supporters are doing now is attacking Kampala Harris. The optics are bad.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 6:43pm
Alternative historical timelines are all bullshit. What causes you to think Bernie would have won the primary if Hillary didn't run? Bernie wasn't my second choice. I'd have voted for O'Malley or some other candidate if Hillary hadn't run. Sanders was as polarizing a candidate as Hillary in his own way. I recently saw a poll that claimed 43% of democrats claimed to be liberal and 41% claimed to be moderate. What causes you to think the moderates that voted for Hillary would have switched their votes to Sanders? It's just as likely there would have been as many moderate non voters as there was Sanders non voters.
As for wanting us to stop lecturing Sanders supporters, when they stop with their bullshit purity tests I'll consider it. I don't support single payer health care and I think democrats should continue taking corporate and other large campaign contributions. While they're not the top issues on my list all else being equal I'll vote against candidates that support those issues.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 6:57pm
Maiello... Uhhhhh...
Did you happen to get your free door knob hanger?
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 7:47pm
Welcome to the club (Bernie) bro.
by HSG on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 2:23pm
Hi everyone, the 2016 election is over, just in case maybe you all forgot or something.
smdh.
by tmccarthy0 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 10:09pm
The Bernie Bros are alive and kicking in 2017. There is also a question of whether Democrats will reach out to black voters as we head to 2018 and 2020. There is debate about whether identity politics means a change in focus on issues related to race. This discussion is about now.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 10:32pm
"The past is not dead. It's not even the past." We're actually re-fighting the *exact same* fault lines & results from the 2000 election as well as *nearly the same* Fake News from 1992/1996. Unless we're careful, we'll be refighting it in 2032 as well.
We're still dissecting the 2016 general election, finding new amazing and disturbing info, but expect the 2016 primaries to be all packaged up and put away on the shelf. If we think of all the Russian and other news and pause to reflect on the relation with the primaries and how *little* we understand about the rise of Bernie and how little we understand about which factions of the Democratic pasrty are represented and which are the policies and insights that will drive forward a winning campaign and solid set of needed approaches and policies that will support a winning coalition.
I'm reading Kahneman again, and he notes again the term "base rate" that time and again gets left out of our assessments of probability. An example - 95% (pure wild guess) of W. Va coal miners voted for Trump, which indicates Hillary's problem. Except W Va has only 6000 coal miners, and millions of people doing other things. There may be some relation, but our anateurish analysis is wildly off from the start, much as we guess about white people in flyover states, people happy/unhappy with Obamacare or wanting/not wanting their kids (if they have them) to go to college, etc. It's an age of analytics, flooded by false and misleading data and overruled by minds (including my own) that don't understand how to instead use data to override misleading intuition and flawed logic.
And here's Palmer to describe some of the postgame analysis/takeaways that we still seem weak on completing. Yeah, we all wanted to pack up and leave quickly, and each took his/her biases along unresolved, but what really did happen, in November, in April, in June of the year before. This isn't just nostalgia and bitterness - it's critical in framing the next directions. We're all rallying around the simple term of DACA, but it's likely we haven't given any thought to nuance, causes and results of any of its variants. Instead it's just representative of the larger pro-Trump (or GOP-despite-Trump) vs anti-Trump struggle, details be damned. And in light of months of Russian bots and Facebook assistance and Congressional leaders-getting-Russian-money and Cambridge Analytica etc, how come our knee-jerk reactions from Nov 9 are so intact? "Just look forward", Bernie conveniently notess.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 1:26am
Fox skewed GOP vote over 6% in 2008. How much in 2016? They're *still* hitting Hillary's emails - red meat for their gullible audience.
Update that with the Facebook effect in 2016, with or without Russia, and we have a much bigger problem than whether Hillary said "deplorables" or got uneducated white interests a pillow or came up with a better campaign slogan.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 6:44am
"Hey Vern" "Wassup, Eb" "D'ya know when that primary thingie is?" "Idunno. Next year?" "Naw, it has to be closer than that" "well let's turn on the TV and see". "Whoa, Gilligan's Island reruns - we got any potato chips?"
How times have changed.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 9:05am
Peracles! Surely you realize how mean and unfair it was for Democratic "operatives" (meaning people who have worked to elect Democrats for years/decades) to support an actual DEMOCRAT. Bernie's nasty comments about the Democratic Party over the years and his inability to accomplish anything should have won them over because EMAILS!!!
by CVille Dem on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 11:44am
Or maybe the answer is/was "none of the above".While we deep thinkers brilliantly,passionately,exhaustively debated every nuance of Hillanders' positions , Trump "On election day......bought all the ad space on YouTube."
(Sue Halpern-New York Review June 8)
It's great we developed compelling positions on the challenges confronting the next Administration.But given that the idea was to get 271 electoral votes it would have been better to have been the one with the smartest digital director.
The good news is that while we here will no doubt fight the next election while carrying on a bad tempered , exhaustive analysis of exactly why our leaders' policy positions are (chose 1) stupid/brilliant maybe in parallel someone might select a campaign manager who knows how to win.
by Flavius on Sat, 09/09/2017 - 10:30pm
"it would have been better to have been the one with the smartest digital director" - Putin/Guccifer 2.0 were already taken
"stupid/brilliant maybe in parallel someone might select a campaign manager who knows how to win" - wow, a campaign manager who "knows how to win". hey, maybe we can put an ad in the paper, 'needed: campaign manager who knows how to win". Pick me up off the floor when I finish snorting and wheezing and spitting up my lunch. Dagblog needs a comedy section fershure.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 09/10/2017 - 9:15am