MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Comments
This is the type of “Bernie-Splaining” that Charles Blow wrote about in a powerful opinion piece in the NYT.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/11/opinion/campaign-stops/stop-bernie-splaining-to-black-voters.html
Bernie cannot take responsibility for anything. Like Trump, he believes the Russians did not work to his benefit. Bernie’s response is as pathetic as the explanation Jill Stein offered in an interview by MSNBCs Alex Witt.
https://thedailybanter.com/2018/02/jill-stein-disastrous-msnbc-appearance/
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 8:22am
If these Russian bots were so powerful and influential, how come you were too smart to fall for them?
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 8:50am
???
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 9:09am
That was my reaction.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 9:13am
Oh come on. You and RMRD are latching on to this story because a well-read writer implies Hillary's not to blame for losing to Trump. Instead Bernie's responsible for failing to alert his supporters to be wary of Russian bots. Politico doesn't bother to mention that Obama and Clinton sat on whatever they knew them and didn't (as far as we know) ask Bernie to speak out.
Ultimately, the story only makes any sense at all if you believe that these Russian bots were so powerful and influential that they moved the electoral needle. So my question to RMRD (and now you by extension) is perfectly legitimate, why were you able to resist the dishonest malicious blandishments of nearly omnipotent Russian hackers - presumably hairy men with beer (er Wodka) bellies sitting in basements in their underwear?
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 11:07am
Hal, the 13 indictments came with a statement that Russians worked to aid the Sanders campaign. While I guess you are complementing us for note supporting Bernie, you ignore the possibility that the Russians may have had some impact. Did more people support Sanders? Did more people stay home? We don’t know if there was an impact. We do know Russians attacked Hillary.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 10:31am
I'm sure the Russian bots had some minimal influence, although as Nate Silver points out their influence has yet to be documented. But to the extent that they did it's because, like the Comey letter, they reinforced in the minds of progressive and independent voters problems for which Clinton herself was responsible - e.g., her private email server, her close ties to Wall Street, etc.
On the other hand, railing about Benghazi and Vince Foster for example, probably didn't harm Hillary because those predisposed to believe that nonsense weren't going to vote for her in the first place.
It's the same as the "pussy grabber" story which Clinton thought/hoped would end Trump's Presidential ambitions. Unlike the false Benghazi and Vince Foster stories, Trump really did use ugly misogynistic language and is a sexual harasser but those who think of him in that way weren't liable to vote for him in the first place.
It's interesting that Charles Blow, whom RMRD cites with approval, seems to think that black millennials were especially susceptible to the bots even though African-Americans were Hillary's most loyal constituency by far. The problem with Blow's argument is that the examples he provides of suppressive evidence don't support his contention.
Blow acknowledges the accuracy of Michelle Alexander's critique of Hillary Clinton, although he surely doesn't believe that like Alexander that she didn't "deserve the black vote." He also blames Killer Mike and Colin Kaepernick for turning black millennials against Hillary. Say what you want about Alexander, Killer Mike, and Kaepernick, none is a Russian bot.
From Blow's February 18 column:
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 11:30am
The Michelle Alexander, Killer Mike argument veers us in a different direction. Russian bots acted in aid Bernie Sanders. We don’t know whether there was a significant impact.
The position of Michelle Alexander is that voters should write up a list of their demands and then tell politicians what positions they have to take to receive votes.
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/41175-trying-to-build-in-the-rubble-of-neoliberalism-michelle-alexander-and-naomi-klein-on-bringing-movements-together-in-the-trump-era
It seems to me that you wind up with agendas being set by a group of people with enough time on their hands to sit and discuss issues in a series of meetings. I don’t see this as viable for most citizens. To my knowledge Michelle Alexander feels no responsibility for electing Trump.
Killer Mike felt that Hillary and Trump were the same. After the election, he said that he thought Hillary was going to win. He didn’t realize how many angry, poor white people were voting.
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/watch-killer-mike-analyze-how-race-factored-into-trump-win-w449491
At any rate, I think Trump has scared enough black voters that they will show up in November. Sanders is not on the November ballot. Michelle Alexander thinks that neither party is a viable option. I don’t think that position is accepted by most black voters. BTW, if Sanders was the candidate in 2016, blacks would have held their noses as they voted for him.
Killer Mike choose Sanders after smoking a joint
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/266236-rapper-killer-mike-i-supported-sanders-after-smoking-a
Killer Mike worked on the transition team of Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/266236-rapper-killer-mike-i-supported-sanders-after-smoking-a
Russian bots worked to aid Sanders. We still don’t know the impact.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 12:11pm
The Alexander, Killer Mike, Colin Kaepernick discussion doesn't take us in a different direction at all. Blow suggested that Russian bots tamped down the black vote. But the only reasons that he provides for a depressed black turnout is that very real African Americans who have influence over younger voters expressed very serious concerns that Hillary Clinton would not represent African Americans well and did not deserve their vote. Doesn't that undermine Blow's thesis that it's the fault of bots?
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 2:14pm
Earlier in the article
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 3:44pm
Fair enough. As I mentioned, the bots may have had some success when they cited to Hillary's missteps and poor decisions. I'm sure you'd agree that using the dog whistle "super predators" meets that definition.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 4:15pm
The bots used the same techniques as the Trump campaign at the same time as the Trump campaign. Since the Russians have a reliable puppet in Trump, they may view Sanders as a target rich environment if he runs in 2020.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 4:25pm
Cute - it's basically "they weren't using us, and if they were, they were attacking Hillary more so she should have done something about it."
Hal's response is basically "oh, these are pretend Russian ogres, and if they actually were as fearsome as this says, Hillary should have done something about it".
I can only imagine the lack of responsibility if Bernie had miraculously been elected - "the bankers did this, the internationalists did that, the 2 parties were responsible for the other...."
Kind of like when his team was caught exploiting an open database - all HIllary's fault, maybe even a false flag operation. Most Honest guy ever™.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 10:28am
Vote that Hal try the Wodka and underwear in the basement meme, in his ideological crusade "benefiting" the policies of Trump and the Republicans? Would it be good or bad...?
BTW Hal, you said you would only write criticism of Trump if paid to do so, what's your price?
by NCD on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 10:46am
NCD - one of your more charming tactics is to attribute to me words that I never said or wrote. I did not write that I would only criticize Trump if paid to do so, I wrote that I would only write what you want me to write if you paid me to do so. That's a little bit different isn't it? Of course, it's much harder for you to dispute what I actually wrote than what you pretend that I wrote.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 11:10am
Hal, you have never devoted one blog to criticize Trump or the policies of his Republican administration. I pointed this out on numerous occasions.
At long last you responded that you only write about what you want to write, unless paid. Since you have never yet set sights on Trump, it follows you would have to be paid to do so. Two dots to connect.
If I am wrong on parsing your position, it may be you would never join Bernie and the Democratic Party in opposing the Republicans at any price.
by NCD on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 11:38am
Sorry that doesn't connect at all except in your mind. Indeed my criticisms of the Democratic Party are in the service of defeating Republicans and other corporatists and militarists. Moreover, I have indeed posted here and elsewhere criticisms of Republicans as you well know if you have been paying any attention at all.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 2:17pm
Russia spent more to influence the election than all Hillary speaking fees but that money had absolutely no effect while the speaking fees totally corrupted Hillary. Considering pay scales in Russia more was spent than the NRA spent but that Russian money was ineffectual while the NRA money bought and paid for the whole republican party.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 11:42am
The Clintons got paid over $150 million for giving speeches to corporations and rich people between January 2001 and May 2015. The Russians, pursuant to the Mueller indictment spent, at the absolute most just under $45 million. Ultimately, Clinton lost by about 80,000 votes. But of course the $45 million was dispersed throughout our 350 million people nation and indeed the world. Moreover, that money did not go to individual voters but rather to Facebook and twitter ads. The money that each of the Clintons received for speechifying went to both of them. Which do you think is more likely to have had an impact?
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 2:37pm
Hillary was paid less than 22 million for speeches in the years after she resigned as secretary of state. I don't think you can aggregate every speech Bill made over two decades to that amount. Not only did the Russians spend more than Hillary's paid speeches but they also spent as much as the NRA. Do you also claim the NRA had no impact on the race? Not only could the Russians pay less for workers in Russia but they could pay for criminal activity by expert hackers in Russia without those hackers fearing criminal liability.
I think the Russian money, especially that spent for illegal hacking of DNC and Podesta emails, had a greater effect than Hillary's paid speeches. While I'm sure we disagree about that I think if you were honest you'd have to admit the Russian money had an effect at least equal to the NRA money.
eta: I've always felt it was unfair to Hillary to blame her for everything Bill did. They are two different people as was discussed quite often in the news during Bill's term as president. At that time most reporters called Hillary Bill's liberal conscience. Do you also consider every thing Jane Sanders did or said as attributable to Bernie? I don't. You can note that while some here have attempted to critique Bernie by pointing at Jane's tenure as president of Burlington College I never have. I'm consistent mostly without partisan bias. I don't blame Bernie for everything Jane did nor do I blame Hillary for everything Bill did.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 3:19pm
To be clear, I don't blame Bernie for Jane, but when she acted a bit catty towards Hillary, i'm not too worried. Anyway, Hillary got a helluva lot more attacks than Jane, not even worth comparing.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 4:19pm
As a married a couple, Hillary and Bill shared in his take from the speeches. One of the reasons that he got all that money for giving speeches was because the hosts wanted to maintain a very strong relationship with a family that possessed great power with the very possible promise of even more if it returned to the White House.
Okay, you "think" the Russian money had a greater effect on voters than Hillary's paid speeches had on her. Why? On what evidence do you rely in support of that thought? Regarding the hacked emails, we still don't know that the Russians are responsible for providing them to Wikileaks. In any event, they were in fact her emails. All Wikileaks did was confirm what many of us already believed about her and her campaign.
Regarding Jane Sanders, what has she done that you think could create a conflict of interest in Bernie? I am certainly willing to listen. The Burlington (I thought it was Champlain Valley) College situation looks a little funky to me I agree. But I don't see how it could have compromised Bernie when it comes to legislation affecting the American public. Obviously, the money paid to Bill by big banks and other major malefactors in our economy and which benefited Hillary as well created, at a minimum, the appearance of a conflict of interest.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 4:25pm
When I was married both of us worked and all the income went into a joint account. Just because I was getting money from her job doesn't mean I supported every decision she made. It doesn't mean we shared a brain. Though we were both democrats all our political views weren't the same. If she had done something stupid in a moment of anger, like hit a kid in the day care center she worked, I'm not responsible. I was young and stupid and did some things back in the early 80's I'm embarrassed by today. It doesn't reflect on her.
We disagree what making money on the lecture circuit means. We've discussed it several times, I even wrote one of my rare blogs on the topic. Some people here agreed with my analysis. I'm not going to get into it again but we're all smart knowledgeable people here. Accept the reality that your subjective opinions are not objective facts and some intelligent reasonable people disagree with your opinions. There is no objective proof either way.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 5:53pm
I don't spend a lot of time comparing the IQs of those with whom I agree and disagree. I look at the power of their arguments and their track records. When I was a trial lawyer, I found that the two most effective ways, by far, of impeaching a witness were to show either 1) they had a financial interest in the outcome of the trial or 2) they were getting paid to provide the testimony they provided.
In personal injury cases, jurors simply didn't believe doctors who were paid as expert witnesses by one side or the other nearly as much as they trusted physicians who treated the plaintiff at the hospital where she was transported after suffering injury. That's the lens I use to judge the $150+ million paid to the Clintons. They got paid millions of dollars by people who had a direct stake in the laws and actions that they took when they were in the White House, while she was in the Senate and serving as Secretary of State, and hopefully, from her donors' perspective, when she returned to the White House as President.
So, Hillary's billionaire backers definitely had a financial interest in her winning and she was getting paid by them, presumably, in part to do favors for them. Maybe that wasn't the reason but I'd have had a heckuva time persuading a jury. I'm wondering why it was so easy to persuade you.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 7:42pm
I don't spend any time at all thinking about how people become convinced of anything. Mostly because many people are totally uninformed on the issues and I can't imagine or care how people who don't read to get informed make decisions. I'm also not interested in spending the precious hours of my life trying to convince anyone of something or changing anyone's mind. I'm just interested in discussing the news I read with people who are reading the news too.
Don't you ever get bored discussing the same topic using the same arguments a dozen times? Don't you ever get bored reading me making the same replies I've made a dozen times already? I do. If you're actually wondering why I'm persuaded reread any one of the dozen times we've discussed this topic before.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 9:11pm
If you think politics are about solving serious problems and I'm sure you do, then what other reason is there to engage in political dialogue besides trying to solve those problems If you are confident that your position is correct, then why don't you think it's important to change the minds of those who disagree since they're stymieing solutions to those serious problems? If you aren't confident that your position is correct, then why wouldn't you be willing to change it?
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 10:34pm
I'm too much of an introvert with a too small circle of influence for my changing minds to have any measurable effect on the politics of the world. Even this site is too small for changing minds to have any effect. I suppose if I was writing articles for The New York Times I night feel differently, but you know, probably not even then. Why I come here isn't important but since you asked I'll try to explain.
When I was younger I used to talk politics with my circle of friends and acquaintances. But I wasn't really talking politics.I was educating them. I was giving them information from my reading that they weren't getting from any other source. I was bringing them up to speed, performing a service that I was ok doing, but which gave me nothing. As I got older I did that less and less. I come here because everyone here is already at or above my level. They read as much as I. Even if someone here is telling me something I already know they have different priorities. There's a different emphasis. An idea I may not have considered for a couple of decades or just held in the back of my mind is brought to the surface for consideration.
When people prioritize trying to change another's mind the quality of the discussion usually deteriorates. People try to "win" They start to play it safe. They avoid dealing with the most difficult parts of another's argument. They spin their own arguments. They twist and leave out relevant information so the arguments support the point they want to make. The discussion becomes less informative and less interesting. I get bored or frustrated or angry when people spin and lie in their effort to win and change other's minds. It bores me to spin and lie to attempt to change other people's mind.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 5:53am
What you write is fair. But I don't think that a good advocate plays it safe. Again, going back to my trial lawyer days, I always thought it was most effective to take on opposing arguments rather than to ignore them or make dishonest arguments. In politics, if the other side has the better argument, I hope that I acknowledge their point. I'm in this to come up with solutions to our problems. Hillary has been better on guns in my opinion than Bernie. If I want to reduce gun violence - which I do - I think I should admit this up front.
by HSG on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 9:01am
Unless we break dagblog rules, I think we are free to express opinions.I find it remarkable that some can read the articles in an “unbiased” fashion. To me the articles have context. I for example, can’t read about the positive responses to the teen survivors and not reflect on the negative responses to BlackLivesMatter. When I see a WaPo column by a white Conservative writing about Chicago homicides praised, I wonder how all the articles on the same topic by black activists and pundits were missed. I disagree with much of what you post, but I do agree that it is hard to be “unbiased”. People who post are giving opinions and spelling out what they believe what they believe. Out in the real world, I’m sure most are acting on theirs beliefs by being active in their communities.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 9:15am
That article on Chicago was *after* the latest shooting, so the left's hiphopcrisy was in high relief - i.e. context was suddenly a bit different. I've supported #BLM from the beginning in terms of actual goals, not necessarily all their tactics, and I still find it amazing that people are able to rationalize all this killing away. That said, the police killings in context of the large number of non-police killings that get less publicity is also another bit of sad irony.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 10:45am
All true. Homicides have decreased in multiple cities. One does wonder if cities with high degrees of police abuse leads to higher crime rates. Baltimore has a high homicide rate. There was celebration when the city went 11 days without a murder. During the homicide free streak Baltimore police officers were on trail for planting guns, stealing drugs and money.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43050024
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 11:01am
That you feel your blogging should be advocacy like in our legal system totally explains the animosity you get from news junkie types around here.
We don't look at the world as a courtroom where there are only two sides to a story.
And on a site like this, where most members care about figuring out the truth, are interested in more of a juror role, what that kind of blogging does is basically ask for a reader to instead volunteer to step up and present the other other side's case.
When they might not at all enjoy doing that, but they feel baited by the situation that the whole story is not being told. Then their blood pressure goes up because they feel they have been baited into an advocate role that they don't really support. And they feel crummy afterwards that they were once again baited into spending precious spare time on an activity that is not enervating but aggravating. Especially if the debate has happened before!
Some people do enjoy adversarial debate as a game, with points. It is traditional in politics. It's why so many like to rate presidential debates as to winner and loser, as if it is a sports contest between gladiators and what they actually said about policy doesn't matter. Most dagblog members seem to enjoy doing that for the big ones, with an "all in good fun" attitude. (There should be this reminder here, though: many feel with mass media that this has gotten to the stage that is very destructive: not just one political oration vs. another, but Fox vs. MSNBC 24/7.)
The news junkie vs. advocacy blogging, It's the difference between the role of the scholar and the role of a trial lawyer.
When someone with a large audience continually argues in an advocate's role, like an op-ed writer for a big paper, or a spinmeister for a candidate, news junkies accept what they are trying to do because it's very nature of their job. And our only role as readers is to decode what they are attempting to accomplish or point out something interesting they said or ignore them as is our wont.
When someone tries to do it with a small audience that is relatively well informed, though, the reaction is more like this: why are you trying to spin us? Thought we were friends? Do you think we are stupid?
The mystery to me is that in admitting this, why you think it is worthwhile to spend so much time spinning here were the reach is small and most people already know your argument. Is it to just hone and practice your argument for a bigger audience? If so, you should welcome constructive criticism! But you don't often seem to do so.
(Also, don't you realize that this is what makes so many people hate lawyers, that they argue one side of the story and purposely try to avoid or even hide any facts that are detrimental to their case? Same for politicians and their spinmeisters who practice the same game well. Advocacy technique is why people don't trust what lawyers and politicians say.)
by artappraiser on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 1:44pm
AA - you claim that I spin. Previously, you accused me of exaggerating the degree to which Clinton is reviled. I provided very credible evidence that I was not. You haven't mentioned that incident. Nevertheless you now accuse me of spinning, fine set forth examples. If your examples are proven false, then admit it and stop with the accusations.
Lawyers take money from their clients and are duty-bound to argue on their behalf zealously. For my writings here, I get no money :-( Accordingly I argue zealously for what I believe to be the best solutions for our myriad problems. If the evidence demonstrates that I am wrong about how to solve these problems, then I'm happy to change my proposals because all I care about is solving the problems.
I believe Bernie's progressive populism was and is the best answer to the problems besetting our nation for a whole host of reasons. I also believe that Clinton's cautious corporate centrism has caused a great deal of harm to vulnerable citizens and empowered the right. If you disagree and set forth persuasive arguments, I'll reconsider. If you can't set forth a persuasive rebuttal, then why would you disagree?
by HSG on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 4:50pm
What is credible evidence? Rarely is there absolutely irrefutable overwhelming evidence. There is credible evidence with varying degrees of strength on both sides. You offer credible evidence to support your opinions much of the time. Others offer credible evidence to support their opinions. You find their credible evidence when weighed against your credible evidence insufficient to change your mind. They find your credible evidence when weighed against their credible evidence insufficient to change their mind.
We can discuss, debate, argue and hash out which pieces of the credible evidence are strongest and weakest. Some might turn out to be incorrect, not credible evidence, and need to be discarded. Some to weak to be used as credible evidence. If we do that honestly, rationally, and reasonably we can have interesting and productive conversations. I'll leave it at that and not offer my opinions about how you and to a much greater degree rmrd treat your own and other people's credible evidence when we hash it out.
It seems clear to me that most of us edit our posts before we hit send. The quality is too high to be stream of consciousness. Unless I'm pissed at how the conversation is going I tend to edit by adding qualifiers, caveats, extended explanations, softening phrases like It seems, It appears, it might. The more I edit the less absolute my post gets and the more nuanced. Because truth is complex, nothing is as simple as it seems at first look, and I'm trying to get as close to the truth as I see it as possible. As you edit what types of changes do you generally make to your original post?
by ocean-kat on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 5:52pm
Hal, Hillary Clinton lost the election and she's not running for anything. If you want to advocate for Bernie Sanders as our best hope for a win in 2020, then do that - just look forward and tell us why instead of backwards trying to explain why it didn't happen. Why is he likely to be the best two years from now if you think he'll run? Who will be his likely primary competitors and why is he the best choice? How can he beat the Republican candidate whether it be Trump or someone else - and what kind of difference would that make for his possible campaign?
If he's what you believe he is, and his ideas are as solid as you believe they are, then tell us why we should support a run in 2020. He lost the primary in 2016, so tell us why that shouldn't happen again.
by barefooted on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 6:08pm
Well, how in the world could Bernie even enter a Democratic Primary for 2020? He lied about being a Democrat in 2016. How could they let him do it again? Of course he would be all aggrieved and screaming about rigging, etc. But him running as a Democrat will never happen
Let’s see how well he fares as a Socialist. Especially since he has absolutely zero policies. Only BS without a single plan to accomplish anything.
by CVille Dem on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 9:02pm
How could they? Same as before. He won't consider running as an Independent - why should the Democrats fuss? It will depend on whether they think he can win, and if they can afford to lose his votes since he caucuses with them and numbers matter. If the Dems pull off a miracle and take the Senate in 2018? All bets for Sanders are off.
by barefooted on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 10:55pm
So the ex-president who supercharges Davos every year was just getting money because of his wife? Delusional. He was the party's rock star for 2 decades.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 5:19pm
He wasn't "just getting money because of his wife" and I never wrote that. But the fact that she might well return to the most powerful office in the world sure didn't hurt his earnings now did it?
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 7:31pm
The story doesn't imply that Clinton does not bear responsibility for the loss of the election.
The problem of foreign nations attempting to influence our elections does not go away by saying they did not make a difference in this case. The debate is still out on the latter point but the need to address the first is not avoidable.
by moat on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 1:28pm
Foreign nations attempt to influence elections. I agree that we should try to safeguard our elections from foreign interference. How do you propose doing so?
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 2:38pm
The first step toward fixing the problem is to separate the discussion of the legitimacy of our last election from measuring how much foreign influence had to do with the results.
To say that the motivation to address foreign influence is principally driven by a desire to misdirect attention from Clinton's alleged failures is an ad hominem argument. Since it deals with the intentions of other people, it cannot also be an argument about what happened. The results issue is complicated and highly subject to the butterfly effect. The legitimacy issue is grounded in processes deeply mortised into our Republic. To conflate the two matters can only lead to logical fallacies and ships passing in the night.
by moat on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 6:59pm
Yawn. Nothingburger story. The VPR interviewer repeatedly asks Bernie whether he should have told his supporters to disregard Wikileaks and critical social media memes about Hillary. The interviewer's point is that because Russia may have sourced the Wikileaks from its hacks and some of the online criticism was driven by Russia, all of it should have been disregarded - regardless of its veracity.
Bernie's very reasonable response is that the Clintons knew much more than he did - certainly true - and that he was taking his cues from them. Presumably, if Clinton (and Obama - who sat on all that he knew) had asked Bernie to speak to his supporters about this problem, he would have.
All of this is simply yet another attempt by neoliberal Democrats and the media establishment in order for them to evade responsibility for the disastrous Clinton campaign. Political and media elites would greatly prefer to shift blame onto the most popular politician in America because Bernie's policies would upset an apple cart that has funneled enormous profits to them.
The complete interview is here. http://digital.vpr.net/post/sen-bernie-sanders-gun-control-russian-meddl...
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 8:28am
He was taking cues from Hillary? was that his leadership ability? Hillary's "disastrous" campaign where she trounced Bernie and beat Trump by 3 million votes? How do you define "disastrous"? I won $1 million in Vegas - total disaster.
"yet another attempt by neoliberal Democrats and the media establishment" - you are a fucking shill, aren't you?
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 9:12am
She was the candidate. He was the good soldier that the Clintonistas insisted that he needed to be. He couldn't have known what was going on with any degree of confidence since we are only now learning the full extent of a foreign invasion that rivaled Pearl Harbor. Yet, he was supposed to be warning his supporters about something that his Democratic Commander-in-Chief kept close this vest.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 9:19am
"Good soldier"? He tried to hijack the convention, couldn't or didn't bring many of his followers along, and his campaigning was minimal while trying to keep his "Revolution" as the inheritor of the party.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 12:59pm
It wasn't Bernie who tried to "hijack" the convention. It was the DNC that tried, mostly successfully, to shut down his supporters. We see the same dynamic here. There is never any willing by her obviously enraged backers to acknowledge 1) any of her many missteps, 2) checkered history, 3) Bernie's numerous good qualities.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 2:44pm
Oh bullshit. She won the nomination. He refused to concede unless he got a bunch of bennies and freebies, and still they whined about not having enough sway. And they left behind the party immediately after the convention, 3-4 of his 5 allowed to help write the platform. So what crap.
Bernie plays good basketball and delivers a good speech. Happy?
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 5:24pm
The platform is meaningless. Clinton moved to the right as soon as she wrapped up the nomination. She lost the general election. Time to try something different.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 7:44pm
Your only choice, Bernie Sanders would also shift to the right to govern.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 7:55pm
Maybe. Politicians need to be pragmatic. I don't fault Obama for abandoning the public option to get the ACA through. I do fault him, as do many millions of Americans, for taking conservative positions when there was no practical benefit to us, e.g., continuing the big bank bailout rather than helping underwater homeowners, expanding the drone wars, and the surveillance state.
But in any case, that's not really my point. Clinton's enunciated policy positions, her checkered history, and her campaign style were unsuccessful against an even more unpopular candidate than she was. Therefore, it's time for Democrats to move in the direction that has proven consistently successful over the past century.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 8:42pm
You mean the election and re-elect of two neoliberals Clinton and Obama? McGovern crashed and burned. Which Sanders-like Democratic President are you discussing?
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 9:32pm
Both Clinton and Obama lost Congress two years after they were elected and the White House after they left office in part because they moved to the right. Both Clinton and Obama won re-election but there are some pretty serious caveats to those wins. Clinton defeated a weak establishment candidate and was aided by third party spoiler Ross Perot. Clinton never got close to winning a majority of the popular vote. Obama beat the guy who spoke fondly of a China where workers were fighting to work for $1/hour and looked like the guy who fired you.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 10:39pm
Moved to the right how, where? And haven't you heard of this as normal for the general election? It's about as normal as a plane taxiing on the runway and gunning it for takeoff. Where do you see the populace at large with all those Republicans waiting for a Demicrat to spout even mire leftist cant than usual? You think the decline of unions in the last 30 years is due to what? You think the increase if people invested in the stock market thru 491s/IRAs/personal accounts has no effect on their view of the economy and Wall Street? You think Joe and Joetta Sixpack are waiting for more jolly speech about opening the borders and bringing in furriners even if you close down trade? They're even losing the "I want my child to be more educated than me" meme, which was one of the mainstays of Amerucan mythology and one of Bernie's main anchor points. Fucking Bernie fans feeling betrayed? Fuck them, grow up. We've got a shit disastrous government partly because of that completely unrealistic tantrum, and instead you/some of them are just clinging to the same bullshit prognoses. #MeToo is catching on now because most were too slow and deceived to think it mattered 2 years ago. Most chose the flag and football over blacks murdered in the streets 2 years ago. Half chose a guy who'd bankrupted a dozen times with a history of lawsuits and misogyny and racism and scandals as their businessman president over some whiffs of petty trumped up scandal. That's the electorate, and you want to shine them with love-your-neighbor long-smeared socialist rhetoric about redistributing income? Get real.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 12:31am
Intriguingly takes this whole thing a step further than I have, explains the "throw out these bums, put in some new bums" phenom, such as in mid-terms after a new president's first term:
by artappraiser on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 1:43am
Another thing that makes 0 sense to me is that I live in Europe where we have open trade between 28 countries, high standard of living and social programs Americans on the left would cream themselves over. Yet you insist trade deals are the road to hell. Conveniently, Putin agrees, at least insifar as helping cinvince Brits to Brexit. What's *your* motive in ignoring the successes of he world's biggest socialist experiment ever?
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 02/23/2018 - 2:02am
To his credit he realized that what he said in the interview didn't come across well and he issued a statement afer it:
But this is not to his credit, from the end of the Politico article:
Nor is it to yours to defend what he said, don't you see?
Not if you want to win over more Dems, it is not nothing burger, it should be "yes, Bernie misspoke, he got carried away on air, here's his statement."
Maybe you don't care about winning over loyal Dems. You would rather see a new party built of a coalition of people sympathetic to certain MAGA themes.
To an Independent like me, it says this: your zealotry and cynicism about it is showing when you won't admit mistakes. Zealotry scares me, I don't trust it. Zealots either want to hide that you are real people and want to appear as if you will do anything for the cause. So I think: first you come for the big corporations, next you come for the mid-size businesses, then the little businesses, then the eyeglasses wearers like me. Because I can't trust you to have doubt about anything, you are 100% sure you are right.
NCD is right to point out that if you only post about one thing and one side of the story over and over and and over and cherry pick for affirmation of that message, that there is mistrust. Politically, that's the way things work. So when you say "I only write about things that interest me", don't be surprised that when you do that to exclusion of any other facts or p.o.v.'s, that it can be very counter productive in politics.
Let me be clear: this is the only reason I am writing this: You have expressed surprise in the past that you can't win over anyone here with your views and you have asked what can I do about that? What you can do is show that you have doubts, and have looked at things from another perspective, and can be mistaken some times, that you know there would be downsides here or there, or that you have been mistaken about one thing or another.. Not that you have figured what is the one true answer to the suffering out there. People don't trust that, agitprop doesn't work with educated people and zealotry doesn't sell things or ideas.
by artappraiser on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 2:38pm
Another example: It doesn't work. That someone is a saint and savior, makes no mistakes, does nothing wrong, is not an easy sell.
by artappraiser on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 2:46pm
I admit Bernie has made mistakes and is not a savior and have done so here. Indeed, during the primaries, I noted that Hillary was better on guns. I'll reiterate here that I remain concerned about Bernie's ties to the NRA. There can be little doubt that it corrupted him.
The nuclear waste deal that he supported in the 1990s is also hard to square with Bernie's otherwise strongly pro-environmental record. My support for Bernie in 2016 was always predicated on the conclusion that he was far and away the best candidate in the race, not that he was perfect or above reproach or criticism.
That said, you must admit there's a whiff of hypocrisy in your complaint. First of all, you haven't acknowledged that some of your criticisms of me have been wildly off the mark. Second, when have you or Clinton's other supporters here been willing to attribute any serious missteps or errors by Hillary?
Edit to add: Bernie was also slow to take seriously very legitimate complaints against the VA back in 2014 (I think it was). I'm sure he's done lots of other things wrong.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 2:58pm
I listened to the entire interview and with an open-mind too. Did you? Regardless, I stand my characterization.
In any event, AA, I must admit to a fair degree of surprise that you are at this moment trying to take me to task. During our last kerfluffle you stated with absolute certainty that I was exaggerating and engaging in hyperbole when I wrote that most Americans recognized Hillary as corrupt. You also contended that there was now widespread regret among Americans who didn't vote for her.
I provided links to extremely credible sources that what I wrote was true and what you wrote wasn't. You failed to reply to my response with any counter-evidence or any other support for your position. Don't you think you'd be better served acknowledging how badly off-base you were in that colloquy before telling me to acknowledge that Bernie misspoke in the VPR interview.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 2:49pm
I am not trying to take you to task.I'm actually trying to give you constructive criticism, but you don't see it that way.
I was trying to give you feedback as a reader of your writing on what you are apparently trying to do and how I think you do it counterproductively. You blog politically pro-active posts, I don't. You want to win people over to your p.o.v., that's not what I'm into, I'm into skeptically reading what pros doing that are trying to do. So I offer what I have learned from doing that when I see someone call out "how can I do this better?" But I only do that with people that I think are worth answering their call. If it's clearly just idiotic stuff or troll stuff that they are writing, if I bother to comment, I use snark.
P.S. I did not listen to the interview but I read the whole VPR piece. I was impressed that Bernie quickly put out that statement, he took the criticism immediately to heart and did not attack the critics. I think more of him for that.
by artappraiser on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 3:21pm
Thank you.
by HSG on Thu, 02/22/2018 - 4:27pm