MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Taibbi: Nobody saw his campaign as an honest effort to restore power to voters, because nobody in the capital even knows what that is. In the rules of palace intrigue, Sanders only made sense as a kind of self-centered huckster who made a failed play for power. And the narrative will be that with him out of the picture, the crisis is over. No person, no problem.
This inability to grasp that the problem is bigger than Bernie Sanders is a huge red flag. As Thacker puts it, the theme of this election year was widespread anger toward both parties, and both the Trump craziness and the near-miss with Sanders should have served as a warning. "The Democrats should be worried they're next," he says.
But they're not worried. Behind the palace walls, nobody ever is.
Comments
Matt's much better at exposés than political analysis.
First, there's just a chance that people felt safe doing a protest vote for Bernie because they knew Hillary was in - i.e. "we're satisfied, but we still got our gripes". It was never as close as the press made it out to be, except in rural typically underserved communities - with a mix of rightwing crazy Bundys and anarcho-syndicalist leftists and undecideds and some people who might have some relation to the Democratic party. I.e. the grab-bag of "Independents". And yeah, early on "success" was defined as how many people showed up at an event, rather than who got the most votes, and Hillary ain't Bono nor Obama. Democracy wept...
Second, folks keep acting like Hillary's leftward leaning policies are simply pandering rather than part of who she is, both in government and her foundation, healthcare, poverty, racial & gender & LGBT issues.... She's pragmatically leftward leaning, at least domestically, and from reading (The Atlantic's?) blow-by-blow on Libya, I was reassured that it was a more considered, less gung-ho fuckup than might have been presumed.
Third, she handed 1/3 of the platform committee to Bernie - and Matt thinks she/they're ignoring the discontent and focusing just on monied interests? Raising minimum wage is high on the agenda, whatever $ value. Wage equality is also there. Fairer trade deals (or none whatsoever). Education debt relief. Environmental concerns/combating global warming. Further controls will be put on Wall Street & related, even as Glass-Steagal won't be re-enacted. All of these are firmly accepted. Likely better, more consistent corporate taxation will also follow - if they don't game the system. [As a tradeoff, Black Lives Matter got dropped of the stage, though I don't think Hillary's forgot - body cameras for cops, etc.. she keeps lists. Fracking I think it's irrelevant what they say, except for tightening pollution controls - no one's going to ban it.]
Fourth, Elizabeth Warren - there appears to be a genuine rapprochement happening between Hillary & LIz, and since Liz was the candidate progressives wanted all along - ignoring that she's a finance person and not always that liberal - many will be happy, while some others will see Warren as selling out (ignoring that Warren's not changing a whole lot, for better or worse).
Fifth, for all the talk of something new, Bernie's revolution was fueled by the same group that fired up Obama. The same kind of disgruntlements, can't be satisfied, need a revolution, etc. Obama being a good Rorschach Test for all people sucked up all their love along with those who were mainstream and won. And then the left was disappointed because they hadn't quite paid attention, and he pulled the plug on their grassroots organization. It's the same revolution that backed Bradley as the agent of change in 2000 and petulantly bashed down Gore as the establishment candidate, "the same as Bush", ignoring his embrace of new technology and unique effort in supporting the environment, along with the fact that the economy was doing well and we were on the cusp of having money for more social programs. It's the permanently peeved wing of the party/near-party with the same bashing of capitalism, anything military, etc.
Sixth, they dropped the ball on militarism, because nobody's even mentioned Obama's progress with ISIS in months, and despite the gut feeling we all have that there's too much reliance on firepower, there was no actual debate on alternatives, simply "don't do that", which leaves a huge gap in terms of how to actually deal with rather than abandon the situation in Syria, Iran, Gaza, Ukraine, China... and terrorism and government surveillance got amazingly short shrift in the discussion. I'm hoping Hillary got the message that "less is more" and a bit more modest goals is apropos, but that's just a hope, nothing the debates really nailed down.
Seventh, the GOP and Dem disgruntlement are quite different. The GOP has run its hold-no-prisoners-nor-sanity approach into a wall, so that in a field of 20 uninspiring aspirants, they settled on the least experienced and most unhinged, but by far the most entertaining. You might say part of Bernie's success was the entertainment value, along with the Youth NOW!!! branding, but the contest was about sizing and tweaking the direction, not redefining it, however many times "revolution" was mentioned.
I guess it's important for some to keep struggling for disappointment, but overall with the Trump meltdown we're in fantastic shape to even gain Congressional seats - provided the GOP doesn't manage to replace Trump with someone non-toxic in the meantime.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 4:55am
You're missing the point entirely. Taibbi is saying that the problem is bigger than any one politician--including Bernie, Hillary, and Obama. You can belittle the disgruntlement as "Youth NOW!!! branding" and pretend that there was nothing exceptional about the election of 2016, but that just suggests you don't understand or appreciate why people are disgruntled--which is precisely Taibbi's point.
by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 4:30pm
Thing is Michael, I don't think Taibbi made a good argument for that point. I read Capehart's article and thought it was nonsense. Taibbi's contention that it is indicative of the democratic leaders response is not supported. I found his arguments as foolish as Capehart's
If we agree that this wasn't an election between two establishment figures like it was in 08 but exceptional than we must also say that the voters care much more about an argument between the establishment than a revolution. Depending on how one counts the 08 primary vote Hillary won by 60 thousand or lost by about 300 thousand. Out of 36 million votes case. The revolution lost by 4 million votes out of 27.5 million cast.
Taibbi points out that Hillary got 30% less votes in California than in 08. He fails to point out that Sanders also got less than Obama in 08 when he lost California. He also fails to point out that in 08 the California primary was early and meaningful while in 16 the contest was already over. Voter participation always drops when the contest will not affect the outcome. So what point was he making with these numbers?
Was the Sanders campaign fueled by " massive grassroots movement fueled by loathing of the party establishment" as Taibbi contends? I think this article is more fueled by Taibbi's loathing of the party establishment.. Early on most polling of Sanders supporters showed 80% liked Hillary and were content to vote for her if she won. Only when Sanders increased his attacks on Hillary's character did that number begin to drop. Yet it still remains at about 65 to 70% now. Where is the loathing?
I didn't see the DLC as a revolution but the party's acknowledgement that the electorate has shifted in a conservative direction. I also don't see a Sanders revolution. The base is now shifting liberal and I think the party is well aware of that shift. The party has become much more accommodating to Elizabeth Warren and the Warren wing of the party. They were not nearly so accommodating when she was a consultant working on the CFPB. Her election and her fund raising prowess changed that. Sanders vote and fundraising power will continue and accelerate that shift to the left.
Taibbi's idea that the establishment is learning the worng leason and is about to blow off the liberal wing of the democratic party is not supported by the evidence as I see it.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 5:31pm
Revolution = change. Obama mobilized voters because he campaigned on change, then lost many of them when nothing changed. Sanders is also campaigning on change. Whether you see him as revolutionary is besides the point. He is a vessel for this desire for change.
"Shifting liberal" is a misreading of the electorate. Some are shifting liberal, others are shifting to the right and embracing people like Donald Trump. Taibbi is arguing that Democrats should be owning that desire for radical change instead of hiding from it. And whether they own it or hide from it, it is coming.
by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 5:31pm
Obama never called his push for change a revolution. This is clearly not Taibbi's argument as he claims this election different that 08 because 08 was just an argument between factions of the party establishment.
There seems to be compelling evidence that the young electorate is shifting liberal. I expected we would reach a tipping point but didn't expect it to come so soon. I still wonder how successful democrats will be in senate, house, and local elections but the trend lines seem clear. We'll see in this election how far that shift has gone.
Seems to me Taibbi is saying much more than the democrats should be owning radical change. He;s not saying they're hiding from it, he's claiming they are planning to safely return to their " traditional We won, screw you posture" I don't think that's at all the case. While I would like to see more rapid change I see the democratic establishment moving decidedly to the left with the change in the democratic electorate.
edit to add: Warren was considered too liberal for Obama and the establishment to be appointed to head the CFPB she created. She is now being pushed by Reid and others in the party establishment to be the vp. One may not consider that embracing radical change but imo it's a considerable shift to the left.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 6:11pm
Fair enough. It's my spin on Taibbi's piece, and I agree with you that he misrepresented the California data.
I suggest that "change" appeals to the same desires as "revolution." I see '08 and '16 as different in degree rather than different in kind the way Taibbi does, but I agree with him that '16 is a harbinger of more to come.
PS I think the Democratic establishment is moving slightly left but not in a meaningful way that will satisfy the public's hunger for change.
by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 6:11pm
"PS I think the Democratic establishment is moving slightly left but not in a meaningful way that will satisfy the public's hunger for change." - wow, that's a mouthful. "The public's hunger"? or "the Bernie base's hunger"? And what about raising minimum wage and education debt relief and putting cameras on cops and fighting back against abortion clampdowns and potentially putting Warren as the top Wall Street cop is not "meaningful" or "satisfying"? For fuck sakes, this is the public that supported the Iraq War and kept Gitmo open and shits itself at every thought of a terror attack and wants to build an economic wall to keep out poor 3rd country products without even admitting it. I'm glad maybe we're pulling out of our post-9/11 panic 15 years later, but no, I don't think the public has any huge leftist hunger for change beyond the usual, which means "it's the economy stupid" or "it's my empty pocketbook". Even "don't tase me, bro" fell off the dais as a critical issue, and instead we're more worried about Keystone pipeline and an email server than black folks getting brutalized and bankrupt minority sections getting shafted with poisonous water.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 6:34pm
I hope you're right. I think everyone here would like to see more rapid and radicle change. I hope the public will keep pushing for more. Perhaps I'm delusionally optimistic. It's an unusual state for me as I'm usually cynical and pessimistic about politics. I thought the electorate. especially the young, was shifting to the left but I never expected an avowed socialist to do so well. I thought that despite their wins the republicans were spirling down but I never thought the descent would be so rapid or as extreme as Trump. I thought the tipping point was coming but I thought it was years away. It might be this year. My hopes will be dashed if Hillary loses or even if she wins but it's close. Or if democrats don't retake the senate. Or if we don't get at least a few more state election wins. Then I'll quickly be my normal disgruntled cynical pessimistic self. We'll see.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 8:37pm
Let's try re-reading that sentence again: "You might say part of Bernie's success was the entertainment value, along with the Youth NOW!!! branding, but the contest was about sizing and tweaking the direction, not redefining it, however many times "revolution" was mentioned."
Note the words "part", "sizing and tweaking". While I still contend nothing was redefined, perhaps a "larger focus/priority on liberal issues" would have , which is that I suggest in 3).
People are disgruntled because there's no American dream anymore - kids are struggling to do better than their parents, college is a debt-ridden scam as much as an obligatory ticket-punching opportunity, corporations have gamed the tax system and the international shuffling of profits to avoid paying enough to sustain public services, and we're continually playing kamikaze government into the bathtub with Republicans.
But Taibbi wants some movement politics with his post toasties, not a simple understanding of what's going wrong and ways to fix it, which is why those on the Hillary side have been arguing scale, balance and proper resonse for a year. Anyway, I get it, Hillary didn't fix anything, she's corrupt & indepted, politicians don't ever listen, both parties are the same. I think it's a dumb article, which hurts me, as often I really really like Taibbi.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 6:13pm
I can agree with that. Taibbi probably would too. Whether Sanders could actually solve these problems or whether his ideas are truly revolutionary is beside the point. The point is that this disgruntlement--which found Sanders' channeled--represents a fundamental threat to the political establishment. People are hungry for a revolution.
by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 6:17pm
I don't see revolution - I see fundamental return to sanity. I don't think I'm that unique. My kids need to go to school, the environment needs to be clean, the streets need to be safe (both sides), dial back wars without serious need, "why can't we all get along", figure out how to embrace technical/societal advancement.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 6:40pm
Of your 7 points, 9 were wrong.
You need to go back in time to get smarter.
by quinn esq on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 7:06pm
Not enough time - I'm moving to Guelph to enroll in night school, because, well, Guelph - can you say that?
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 06/11/2016 - 1:01am
Democrats rescued the nation from the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression.
Which occurred under the reign of a clueless war profiteering Republican administration which didn't even know the economy was in free fall until it knocked them upside the head.
And Democrat voters didn't show up in 2010 so Republicans were back in power.
Throwing some Wall Street bankers into jail or blah blah 'supporting unions' wouldn't have changed that.
The End.
by NCD on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 10:32am
Michael Moore, Ed Schultz, etc told people to sit out the midterms.
We were told there was no difference between Democrats and Republicans, Gore was not pure, sot they voted for Nader. Kerry was not pure, so he had to lose to return the Democratic Party to sanity.Hillary is no different than Trump.This is the rubbish we were/are fed.
Now we are supposed to placate the same subset of people who preached nonsensical political purity.
There is a subset of Progressives that will never vote for Hillary. We can do nothing to change that fact.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 11:00am
I needed a good laugh this morning and you obliged quite nicely, the Repuplicrats bailed out their masters at the TBTF banks, most of it in secret, and the rest of the nation was left to flounder and crash, which is still happening in my area with once thriving businesses closing and foreclosures sales rising again. The payday/title loan vampires are thriving so the bankers make obscene profit from the bailout and the nations suffering.
Obama just ramped up the Afghan War so the war profiteers returns are locked in and HRC and Pocahontas won't even have to raise a royal finger to continue the carnage and everyone that matters will celebrate.
This election extravaganza is just underway so i will say 'The Beginning'
by Peter (not verified) on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 1:23pm
Only it's not "The End". Among other things, and with the aggressive support of Secretary Clinton, President Obama continued to pursue the policy - free trade - that, along with tax cuts for the rich, is probably most responsible for the decline and fall of the middle-class in America. Among other things, and with the aggressive support of Secretary Clinton, President Obama, in some cases reluctantly, continued to interfere disastrously in foreign countries.
by HSG on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 2:10pm
And if Qaddafi were to slaughter civiliians in Benghazi, would you stand by and let him much like we let Hutus kill 600,000 Tutsis and largely did nothing about the massacre at Srebrenice?
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 3:03pm
PP - the choice was not either 1) save 1 million from being slaughtered in East Libya or 2) kill Gaddafi. Ensuring the former did not require the latter. We've been through this on several occasions. You know about the Foreign Policy article that sets this out in great detail. Here's another good (because it supports my view) source. http://www.globalresearch.ca/hillary-clintons-six-foreign-policy-catastr...
Addendum - here's the Foreign AFFAIRS not Policy article to which I was referring. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/libya/obamas-libya-debacle
by HSG on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 8:04pm
One person's failure is another persons success but a consensus seems to be building among at least one ideological group so if you like the neocons and all their "successes" you should like Hillary.
Another neocon endorses Clinton
Hillary's new campaign motto could be "Progressives for the Status Quo" .
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 9:28pm
I'm sorry, did you actually say what you'd do on foreign policy for once, or did you yet again fall back on things you wouldn't do, or worse, "analysis"?. Leading is more often about doing, even unpalatable chouces. How would you handle?
PS - I'm not running off to read another dissertation - what was your conclusion of a proper action response given the circumstances? AFAIK you didn't quite give a "view".
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 06/11/2016 - 2:47am
I have noted several times Gaddafi's advance on Benghazi was ended by late March 2011 and his forces withdrew from the region. Months of NATO-led bombings, in which we participated, followed. Gaddafi was killed in October. It's not hard to understand once the over-hyped threat of massacre was removed we did not need to continue to assail Gaddafi in order to prevent the massacre.
by HSG on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 10:02am
If I look at NATO attacks, most involved Misrata and Brega tied to Qaddafi's troop presence and threat to the civilian populace long after March. Again, I'm not a big fan of the action, and think Qaddaifi's removal was counterproductive, but it was certainly carried out as a wide alliance, not just US hegemony, with French and Italians largely leading and a dozen real countries (vs Bush Jr's perverse coalition), including both NATO and UN involvement. By mass international consensus, not just Hillary's who couldnt even choose her own deputy, it was decided these were the goals and means based on the civilian situation and Qaddafi's past. At some point it turned to more than Benghazi, but longer than 1 month.
If your point is we should have intervened but wound it down after a month, I would largely agree.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2011_military_interventi...
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 11:00pm
So...if Dems are so darned awesome, why are so many people so unhappy with Dem leaders?
PS Writing "The End" doesn't actually end anything in real life
by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 4:33pm
Democrats are awesome six times as many Sanders voters would switch to Clinton rather than vote for Trump.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/10/sanders-supporters-prefer...
Im with her.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 4:49pm
Looks like Matt was picking and choosing in order to strengthen his argument. In fact, every leader who spoke in support of Hillary yesterday gave huge high-fives to Bernie, noting emphatically how his campaign changed the course of the party. He must have been writing his piece instead of listening. I was proud of that gracious inclusion from everybody. It's they way it should be, and the way it WILL be.
by Ramona on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 11:25am
The final piece of the inclusion puzzle has yet to be placed; Bernie is still clinging to it. All the appreciation, gratitude and high-fives in the world won't make a difference if he's not willing to be part of the Democratic party - instead continuing to believe that it's just too rigged to ever be trusted. I truly hope that won't be the case because the voices that he and others have added must grow stronger, and my sense is that they will ... with or without Bernie. As he has often said, it's not about him.
by barefooted on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 1:31pm
The next move is up to Bernie, but the Democrats did the right thing by letting him know he will be included. If he doesn't accept it, they can't fault the Dems.
by Ramona on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 4:06pm
High-fiving Bernie is not what Taibbi thinks Dems need to be doing right now.
by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 4:23pm
I'm certainly relieved Bernie didn't get it, that Hillary's finding her mojo (again), that a lot of liberal priorities came out of the campaign, that Democrats seem in much more organized and methodical shape as the GOP melts down, and that perhaps we can really get our shit in a row and pull together a Democratic progressive-leaning Congress to enact some of the stuff we're jabbering about. Another round of navel-gazing, god-it's-tough, we're-so-compromised self-flagellation? Whatever it takes, Matt - just come around. Hell, Bernie's still dreaming of that indictment so he can traipse to the podium as told-you-so saviour.. Talk about vision.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 6:19pm
PP, I'm concerned that the water you drink in that foreign country may be contaminated and causing your delusions of Clinton ever having mojo and other nonsense.
Trump's speech on 'The Clintons' next Monday should be very interesting if it is reported accurately and i expect the excrement to hit the fan soon after with much foaming at the mouth, apologia and deflection from the Party loyalists and royal enablers.
by Peter (not verified) on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 11:11pm
All those attacks will be very old news and conspiracy theories that didn't work when they were tried back then. Will they work this time around? We'll see.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 11:42pm
Trump is documented as not paying his workers, continual bankruptcies, scamming people for millions on a trickster university and making overt racist and sexist attacks on any judges or journalists who challenge him. Yet this motherfucker is going to be the Pied Piper who finally after 3 decades brings the moral light to bear on Hillary? I'm concerned you may live in Flint - get out now, or at least drink bottled.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 06/11/2016 - 12:51am
I can't wait to hear Trump's speech, either. And I can't wait to see what the fact-checkers have to say the next day. I seriously doubt there will be bombshells. Bombast, yes, but no bombshells.
by Ramona on Sat, 06/11/2016 - 6:45am
If Thacker ´s right.
But suppose those 435 Congressional aides are right?
The current NY Review provides statistics demonstrating that the vast majority of Trump´s voters ,in fact of all Republican voters, enthusiastically support his mean spirited proposals. So we can assume they wouldn´t be tempted to switch parties to vote for a Sanders ´ type candidate.
In fact , could it just be the case , that some portion of Trump´s projected vote total is comprised of democrats,maybe even current Bernie supporters, who also quite like the idea banning muslims, expelling illegal immigrants, and building the ¨Wall¨. Or at least like the idea right now.
Not the students. As always they think and talk altruistically. While they´re students. As I suppose was once the case with many of the 80% of Trump supporters who support building his imaginary War.
As for Joe or Jane Lunchpail when the LP standard of living is rising ,or at least being maintained, they can be as open hearted as the students. But not when they are falling back. They´re willing to stand still or just grow incrementally but nobody is willing to fall back.
Suppose we somehow could give the LP´s a choice. They could have a guaranteed 1% annual improvement in their standard of living. Or they could stand pat but we´d break up the big banks, reform the primary voting process ,halt the pipeline and ban fracking.
Next question.
by Flavius on Fri, 06/10/2016 - 11:22pm
I don't make that assumption. Trump is certainly channeling discontent into mean-spirited xenophobic proposals, but that doesn't mean the discontent has to go that way. During the progressive era, there was also a high degree of xenophobia, particularly against "Asiatic immigrants who can not be amalgamated with our population," as the Democratic platform of 1908 put it. But the progressives held the day by persuading people that corporate power and political corruption, not immigration, was the source of the country's problems.
by Michael Wolraich on Sat, 06/11/2016 - 9:49pm
Trump represents the xenophobes and most importantly white racists. These people are not going to vote for a left wing socialist/Democrat which they see as the party of blacks.
The progressive era was a whites only affair. Blacks were widely denied the right to vote and denied union membership. In the north they were resented as taking jobs from whites.
Wilson segregated federal services as payback to the southern racists.
75 blacks a year were being lynched throughout the progressive era. Even in Minnesota.
The social/political/media/economic conditions today are far different than 1908.
by NCD on Sat, 06/11/2016 - 10:40pm
Even now I think part of the education uproar is a sense that minorities are getting ahead of whites, and there's a racist component to anti-trade that's largely invisible.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 1:17am
One garners several advantages when one insists people with differing views are racists. 1) One gets to feel morally superior. 2) One gets to ignore opposing arguments. 3) One forces those who disagree to risk being called a racist if they speak up. Well-played NCD and PP.
by HSG on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 9:30am
Well played Hal.
by NCD on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 10:45am
1)-I hear whites complaining about affirmative action in education and blacks getting more support - don't you?
2) do you think there's no racism in complaining about Chinese and Mexicans stealing our jobs and how we need to keep out Brazilian steel and ethanol...? No more Indian H-1B's?
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 3:06pm
I've urged you before PP to read carefully what I write and respond to my specific points not straw (wo)men. I never wrote or suggested that trade protectionists are never motivated at least in part by racism. Likewise, many of those opposed to affirmative action are undoubtedly racist. But, the converse is also true - at least respecting trade. There are "free traders" who support free trade, in part, because it has impoverished black and brown people and has meant many millions of Asians are now working in sweatshops. Consider that the region of America most in favor of "free" trade during the ante-bellum period was the South because with virtually free labor, southern planters had the lowest cost structure in the world.
Regarding affirmative action, there are legitimate non-racist reasons to oppose it. It appears to limit the number of qualified Asians who are admitted to top schools. Many of those who benefit from it come from economically privileged backgrounds. It divides poor and working-class whites and Asians from African-Americans and Latinos.
When you accuse people of racism when they disagree with you on complex issues, you make it easy to dismiss them and their legitimate arguments. That's the essence of anti-intellectualism.
by HSG on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:05pm
Thin-skinned, eh? Yes, there are racist components to positions that aren't completely racist. We can ignore those awful little details if we want. Nice to accommodate both blacks and Asians, but what happens if we can't?
As for antebellum south, they were selling raw cotton to the north and their free slave trade was cut off in the early 1800s, so I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:25pm
"Thin-skinned" is an odd criticism coming from somebody whose default mode of communicating is profanity liberally dosed with obscenities.
Do you think your support for free trade has a racist component PP? Perhaps you like the idea of all those Asians fighting to work in factories for $1/day? Then there are the garment workers in Haiti paid .31/hour because of our insistence on "free trade". You're good with that aren't you?
by HSG on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 7:31pm
You complaints about profanity are getting old. I've seen several videos of Sanders saying bullshit and crap. I've also seen several articles, some from Sanders supporters, that claim he uses fuck a lot in conversations.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 8:10pm
I've accepted complexity in the challenge to raise all boats, including our own but also others'. Perhaps you haven't looked at wage growth in China and elsewhere and seen the effect of 30 years of offshoring - significantly more than $1 a day. And what are the alternatives - $0 a day with our market closed by high tariffs or reliance on charity? I'm happy to have trade deals be more fair, whatever that means. But I'm pro-trade, definitely. I've lived in 3rd world countries helping them build infrastructure and capability so they can compete in some capacity or other. I've certainly sacrificed high US wages most of my life to live places I prefer.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 10:16pm
The best way to help poorer countries is by protecting our poor, working, and middle-classes and raising taxes on the wealthy. Then, we'll be in a much better position to work with other nations to improve their economies without gutting our middle-class. The embrace of "complexity" is part of what has led to the rise of Trump.
Moreover, while some impoverished people in poor countries have benefited from "free" trade, many have not. It is far from clear that the net result has been salutary for anybody but international elites.
Just a small taste of what NAFTA has done:
http://www.globalexchange.org/resources/FTAA/oppose
Yes in China there may be less desperate poverty. But the increased net average income has allowed the Chinese Communists to stymie reforms and to build a military that is threatening nations throughout east Asia. The pollution is also deadly.
by HSG on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 12:33am
I don't get it - jobs disappear from north of the border, jobs disappear from south of the border, in China it's stymied reforms, military action and pollution. Seems that nothing is ever right - only lose-lose. It's magic.
If we're losing manufacturing jobs to Mexico, how are Mexican manufacturing wages falling? Maybe because Mexico's competing with China, where wages are even lower? So if NAFTA didn't exist, 80% of that work would go to China anyway. would be nice if someone acknowledged that backdrop.
But here's a different report from the Wilson Institute using Coneval data that shows pretty decent decline in Mexican poverty from 1996 to 2006 (see page 4), and the jump from 1994 to 1996 likely has more to do with the 1994 devaluation of the peso and resulting crisis.
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/Poverty_Statistics_Mexi...
The US recreates jobs all the time, so jobs "disappeared" reappear as something else. NAFTA passed in 1994. Our economy was booming until sometime 2000, and that was overall a small downturn if not for the neglect of Bush coming in. Again, our famous cathode ray TV business went south of the border, but the Japanese couldn't even profitably sustain LCD TV production - can we say "obsolescence/dinosaur niche"?
At the same time car companies were relocating to Alabama, Tennessee and elsewhere - what effect did that have on prior northern union jobs, and how much is blamed on NAFTA?
Pollution is a concern, and our push of manufacturing to China has resulted in cleaner LA and much more polluted cities in China. Presumably more defined trade deals can *better* ensure some environmental compliance by codifying, but it does depend on how serious the players are in actually doing this.
One big area Mexicans (not Americans) were hurt is in farming/agriculture, as can likely be seen by the northern sections of Mexico doing much better than southern more farming areas. This again might be codified better in agreement, though it's an issue of who has the power during negotiations - big agro can often push through the terms it wants, just like big petrol, etc. Spain managed to get huge fishing exceptions in its EU charter, France huge agricultural exceptions, UK its EU tax rebates. Trade agreements do have a touch of the bizarre, and are certainly not perfect, but I'm happier with the EU than without.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 1:35am
College students are criticized for objecting to political speech that makes them feel "unsafe". Yet, some people who would criticize college students for being "politically correct" raise objections when the word "racist" is used. Racists are given an escape route because they know their racism will not be confronted. Conservators use the word "Liberal" as a profanity. Bigots like Trump survive because he has no problem using "Liberal" as a curse word while never personally being labeled a racist.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 4:34pm
Nonsense. Obscenities were shouted at students at Dartmouth who were studying quietly in the library for not joining in a Black Lives Matter protest. Their alleged racism was confronted. http://thedartmouth.com/2015/11/17/college-sees-no-official-reports-of-v...
by HSG on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 4:50pm
I read the article. Students were studying, which is a perfectly acceptable thing to do in college. They were surrounded by protesters who chanted about their "fucking white privileges," and other things. That is not the same is being in a lecture and hearing words that make you cringe.
I hope you are not saying that studying instead of protesting is proof of racism.
by CVille Dem on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 7:13pm
Exactly right CVille. I was responding to RMRD who claimed racists never get called out on campuses. Yet here's an example of folks who probably aren't even racist getting verbally assaulted because they weren't supportive enough of BLM.
by HSG on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 7:33pm
My point is that they weren't actually racists.
Which is not the same thing as getting called out for being racist.
by CVille Dem on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 7:44pm
Hal, free speech includes the right to call someone a racist.The response is to refute or accept the allegation. Trump is a racist and language restrictions prevent the media from directly calling him by his proper name.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 8:32pm
free speech includes the right to call someone a racist.
If one can make a convincing case that the allegation is true. Otherwise it's simply an ad hominem attack.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 10:08pm
Totally agree. The charge has to be backed up factual statements or actions. We cannot criticize college students for limiting speech and then turn around and limit speech. Trump is using xenophobia to increase hatred of all Muslims.Trump is a racist. The debate is how we would classify Paul Ryan and others who are willing to vote for a racist.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 12:10am
Many progressives were racists, but they were not all white, and progressivism was not a racist ideology.
If you dismiss people or communities who do not currently share your ideology--declaring that they cannot change their views because it is contrary to their nature--then you will never grow your ideology, never build or rebuild your movement.
by Michael Wolraich on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 8:57am
Mike - you may grow your ideology. And, if you "win", you may turn your country into Cambodia.
by HSG on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 9:27am
It is contrary to 30 + years of indoctrination by the 'southern strategy' of the GOP, hate radio, Fox News etc.
You and Hal may indulge the fantasy the right is not replete with racism, but even conservatives in major conservative publications are saying it, The American Conservative:
by NCD on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 11:17am
"You and Hal may indulge the fantasy the right is not replete with racism," nothing I have written and nothing I can recall Mike writing implies anything of the sort.
by HSG on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:02pm
NCD, if you recall, I wrote a book about right-wing racism and bigotry.
Where we differ is that you seem to believe that racism is a permanent fixture in many parts of the country, while I believe that people--yes, even racist conservatives--can change. Not everyone, of course. But we don't need everyone to rebuild a progressive majority.
by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 10:19am
Moreover, we may even be able to work on some issues with those racist conservatives and by working with them hopefully change their thinking on race. (Eugene Robinson writes about the late Senator Robert Byrd's journey from being a member in the KKK to a supporter of civil rights.}
Some may favor universal single-payer healthcare if they can be convinced it will benefit them and their families. They may oppose job-destroying trade deals. They may support unions. Sanders had it right when he told the folks at Liberty University they may never see eye to eye on abortion but perhaps they can agree that no American should lack basic healthcare and education.
by HSG on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 2:59pm
Michael, you may agree with Taibbi’s thesis but the Democratic Party has a much bigger blind spot – one that has been making itself blatantly obvious throughout the nomination process. As this Politico piece describes, our party of inclusion and diversity may be in name only.
by barefooted on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:18pm
This article discusses a potential problem that exists with how the democrats answer this statement from your link.
If they insist on maintaining their purist divide from Clinton, they will create a rift in the party that’s not just ideological, but racial.
Will Sanders supporters be like the PUMA's of 08 that eventually came around and overwhelmingly voted for Obama or will they maintain their purist divide? Will Sanders be like Hillary in 08 who expended all her energy to bring her supporters to Obama or will he maintain his purism and offer only tepid support?
by ocean-kat on Sun, 06/12/2016 - 7:20pm
It's a good point, barefooted, and BLM helped expose some of those divisions. That said, while I expect that racial friction in the Democratic Party to continue, I don't expect it to be as combustible as class friction in the near future. I could be wrong though. We all have blindspots.
by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 10:28am
Hillary overcame the "racial divide". The racial problem lies with Sanders and his supporters. The Sanders supporters were the ones who labeled John Lewis and others sellouts. Blacks are realists when it comes to voting. Susan Sarandon, etc can talk about revoution because they have the means to leave if things get bad.
When BLM's Deray McKessick ran for Mayor in Baltimore, he came in 6th.
Blacks realize that Martin Luther King Jr. was the better political path compared to Malcolm X. Blacks are much more in line with Hillary than Sanders. It is the Sanders supporters creating the racial divide.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 11:11am
It is unfortunate that we can't logically put the creation of racial divides on one specific group - it would be so much easier to defeat if we could.
by barefooted on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 11:37am
I think that in this election cycle we can specifically and easily note that Republican voters selected a racist. On the issue of racial divide in the Democratic Party, it came more from the Sanders camp. Republicans are gearing up to elect a racist. The divide in the Democratic Party does not compare with the gap created by the Republicans. Sanders was tone deaf on race, but still would be the overwhelming choice of black voters in the General Election if he had won.
Trump's rise is associated with racism. Sanders' problem is not being able to connect with the black community as well as Hillary. We are talking about two different racial divides. Trump is toxic. Sanders divide is based on his lack of knowledge of black voters. Trump has the backing of white supremacists. Sanders has far-Left African-Americans in his corner.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 12:01pm
Trump is suggesting that Obama is a Muslim.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/islamic-state-orlando-shooter-omar...
I think that we can hone in one the racists.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 12:24pm
RMRD - forgive me for saying you're engaging in black and white thinking. While I certainly think and have explained precisely why I believe Sanders would have been better for the great majority of Americans, I would never declaim that her supporters are wholly responsible for a racial divide.
Doesn't your statement to this effect create/exacerbate any divide? Wouldn't it behoove us to look for ways to work together? Even though you disagree, is it possible that many Sanders supporters, including millions of color, believe in good faith he would have been better for African-Americans?
by HSG on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 2:51pm
Hal, I was commenting on the article detailing a divide in the Democratic Party along racial lines. The article noted that Hillary did better with non-white voters. Blacks were ready to vote for Sanders if he had won. Sanders supporters have been vocal about what they must receive in order to vote for Hillary. I state the facts as I see them. I am not creating any divide, I am commenting on a divide that already exists. Blacks were ready to support either Democratic candidate. Sanders supporters want concessions. The divide is not coming from the black community. Why is Sanders failing to pick up on this point?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 3:08pm
Thanks for the clarification RMRD. I misunderstood and that's on me. Now that you have explained so even I get it, I think what you wrote is fair. I don't have any answers. As I have noted, I support Hillary but not enthusiastically.
by HSG on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 7:54pm
Hal can you not understand that Sanders and his supporters pissed off the black community because Sanders came with a rigid position. Anyone who disagrees , like Civil Rights icon John Lewis was said to have sold out to the Clintons. Are there no Sanders supporters who understand the anger that causes? When are Sanders supporters going to form coalitions with minority groups?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/13/2016 - 9:55pm