MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Too many choice nuggets to choose one quote; it's a really good read.
Comments
I'll quote something. Because it's a major topic of argument on this website: the part where she discusses, "with six months of perspective", the votes she shouldn't have lost. Especially the part about votes lost to searches about the Wikileaks files, my underlining (hint: she doesn't think some of the swings she lost are stupid racist nazis):
by artappraiser on Sat, 05/27/2017 - 7:58pm
Then since we're at it, I like this from the author's perspective (Rebecca Traister); also touching on a few well argued points:
by barefooted on Sat, 05/27/2017 - 8:09pm
I am late to this party, and just blowing by as it were, but Precious Blood of the Sweet Baby Jesus, this is sure an inopportune time to discover Google Analytics!
Edit to Add: Stab me and sink me, she will probably need another six months of whining about the "drip-drip" of daily wikileak disclosures before the light bulb goes off--"I should have released everything the day I found out we'd been hacked!"==then everything can be answered "it's old news" after two 24hr. cycles.
by jollyroger on Sat, 05/27/2017 - 11:46pm
You're still clueless. Nothing Hillary did or didn't do would be "old news" after a decade. "Advocacy press" + lately "Russian backed Wikileaks and Facebook trolls".
If she released all her emails and transcripts and hadn't had her home server, they would have pummelled her on Clinton Foundation. If she gave up Clinton Foundation, they would have pummelled her on something else.
Good God, she was being attacked as a "Goldwater girl" from her childhood - and rather effectively, I'd say. How much newsprint (and how much damage in the black community) did the endless obsessing on "superpredator" get?
Look at the Swift Boating of Kerry.
And read the rabid comments after the article - will any of them like you be content until Hillary's well-buried, decomposed and dug up again to be sure? And I'm pretty sure most of these commenters will find any Democrat/liberal as a target to continue their ire.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 12:18am
Yeah, those fights between the polling novice at Huffpost and Nate Silver... "why's Nate so gloomy"
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 1:17am
“Sixty-six million people voted for me, plus, you know, the deplorable third-party people."
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 1:42am
Thanks for a good read, Barefooted!
I liked the part about there being so much coverage about Trump or Sanders voters but very little about enthusiastic Clinton voters. That said, it is a bit unfair - there is a man-bites-dog element to outlier figures like Trump and Sanders rising up out of nowhere and leading huge movements. The question, "why are people voting for these eccentrics?" is a much more interesting question than the question why main-stream democrats are voting for a main-stream democrat.
Nonetheless, personally I would have liked to understand the core entusiastic Clinton voters better. And I don't mean just old boomer economic centrists and single-issue feminists. I also don't mean people enthusiastically against Trump. I mean the people in these anecdotes, who have been going up to Clinton in the woods or in restaurants to hug her, like old friends reunited or commiserating. I find it bizarre. I imagine it is people who identify with her story in some way.
What I'm trying to get at is that it would have been good in that piece to get Hillary's perspective on her strengths as a candidate, not just on her weaknesses or her enemies and systemic disadvantages. Who were the people who were most drawn to her and why. The charge she - or the journalist - throws at media bias applies just as much to herself (and to the journalist who fails to dig deeper). The press doesn't talk about it partly because Clinton doesn't care to talk about it. Her story, even in her own terms, is about the obstacles on the way, the enemies trying to bring her down. All we really learn is her indomitable will and ability to overcome. But that still rings hollow to me. Her rapid dismissal of therapy or anything vaguely associated with introspection struck me as well. I could go on, but all that may just be my own bias I guess. Maybe her core appeal is too obvious to mention. And then, if it is too obvious, it's understandable for the press to pass over it in silence.
I must say I liked her commencement address at Wellesley:
It would have been nice if Democrats lead with this philosophy during the next campaign and avoid the basket of deplorables line.
by Obey on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 10:51am
So she's going to lead women out of the 2nd class parking lot, but ignore Trump spouting "bleeding from wherever" at a news reporter and very stupid sexually demeaning antics taped for TV from only 10 years before and a variety of occasions where Trump called women "pigs" and "dogs" and other demeaning lines about Ted Cruz's wife, Carly Fiorina, etc, or just went on and on about their tits - including his daughters - like some twisted version of a teenager in Porky's.
Is your problem with saying "basket of deplorables" that you think it's not her job to stand up to any of that, or that the depth of stupid and deplorable in the country is too deep to make it a winning strategy to point out the truth?
10 years from now, last year's 8-year-olds will be getting the vote and looking at their parents going, "Mom, Dad, how could you have voted for that?" "Deplorables" is about the worst thing Hillary's ever said in public or even record leaks, while everyone else has been nasty as fuck. There will be a reckoning, and I'll live to see it.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 10:11am
I just personally think Hillary's new take is smarter. Insult the opposing candidate, not the voters. Cf. The call out culture piece I linked to yesterday on TMac's thread
by Obey on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 10:37am
While Democrats grovel for white votes, they are pissing off their most loyal base. The term "Deplorables" is an insult, but "Identity politics" is an acceptable term. This outreach is going to be a train wreck.
http://thegrio.com/2017/02/28/most-african-americans-feel-taken-for-gran...
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 11:07am
Poll says 63% of Afro-Americans feel taken advantage of by the Dem. party, but then says
I don't know about you, but seems to me that it is the Democratic party that is the best fit for people with those priorities no matter what color you are. Sounds like the Dem party to me!
Let's grant the party that the Sessions and Obama reputation topics are only a couple months old! As is the Electoral College topic, it wasn't a priority for a decade+ after the Gore/Bush fiasco died down, now it's been brought to the fore again. If it's those things, then they've become aggrieved about being taken for granted only in the last few months? Certainly can't be unhappy about the way Hillary handled their concerns, or 72% wouldn't be so upset now about the majority vote for president issue.
If those 63% want something else so they won't feel taken for granted, then they didn't mention it as a priority! Or they don't agree in enough quantity on what that is (which makes for a fail in a party of any kind!) What else is it the poll respondents want that they feel the Dem party isn't furnishing? Thank yous? Mentions in speeches? Doesn't make sense. For people of any color who have those priorities, the Dem party is clearly your best choice.No party in this system is ideal for special interest groups precisely because: we don't have a parliamentary system. they are big tent parties. If we had a parliamentary system, those 63% could have a party called the Black Caucus or whatever and push everything they wanted 24/7, including non-priorities. But that's not the system we have, we have to have negotiated coalitions within the parties and go after the priorities that the most agree upon.
Edit to add an example: I see immigration is not listed as a priority. Should Latino-Americans start complaining that they are taken for granted in the Dem party, that all the Afro-American voters' concerns are being addressed instead?
by artappraiser on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 3:12pm
P..S. My takeaway: by commissioning this poll, the Congressional Black Caucus learned that they can safely continue to continue prioritizing most things that white Democratic voters also want.
by artappraiser on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 3:42pm
I'm not surprised that you are dismissive. Black turnout dipped in urban areas in 2016. The Latino vote also declined. Democrats need to pay attention to their most loyal voting bases. That loyal base has not been the majority of white people. Keep yammering about "identity politics " and watch the loyal base stay home.
http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/332970-voter-turnout-dipped-in-2016...
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 3:53pm
So you think that whenever the term identity politics is used, it depresses the turnout? What Dem candidate uses it which makes them stay home? That would be conjecture on your part because it's not in the poll, but I am open to input. I am dismissive because: it is not clear from that poll that they have very different concerns than Dem white voters. By staying home they only hurt both themselves and the Dem white voters who agree with them on priorities.
To tell you the truth, I'd be thrilled if everything was re-gerrymandered so that race didn't matter, as much as possible. Aside from active suppression efforts, I am skeptical because I think it's mainly poor depressed people and people working three jobs to make ends meet "stay home" on voting day. OF ALL RACES. I live with some of them in the Bronx, very mixed race,and white and all kinds of immigrant backgrounds, low income or very small struggling businesses like bodegas and newstands. They don't have time to be informed when they do manage to vote, then they usually vote party line like their parents did. And then they bitch that the damn bastards I voted for didn't do nothing for me nor my parents, so maybe I won't bother to take off work to vote next time. It's not just poor Afro Americans that feel this way. And I know enough middle class and upper class Afro-American who don't feel this way. But then I also know that some of the latter don't exactly feel welcome in what you label "the Afro-American community." They must be part of the 37% that don't feel dissed by the Dem party, plenty of them probably donated to it for its candidates, too (and then there's some of latter happen to be Afro-American as well!)
by artappraiser on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 5:00pm
I really appreciate hearing about your experience with African-American voters. I also have an extensive experience with that group of voters. Instead of relying on personal experience, I go looking for data. Black women in particular have organized in support of the Democratic Party. Black women receive little financial support from the Party. I read the letter sent by the DNC chair by black women activists.
http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/332970-voter-turnout-dipped-in-2016...
The DNC did a grand tour outreach to white voters. There has been zero outreach to minority communities. Quiet and Sanders ran a populist campaign in Montana. Quist lost. Montana is filled with white voters. Those voters rejected the populist message. We will see how things play out in GA-6.
if Democrats continue the pattern of only showing up in minority communities. While your personal experience may differ, polling data suggests that a majority of African-Americans feel that the Democratic Party takes them for granted. 538 looked at a snippet of data that supports the idea that black community support for legislation results in a lower likelihood that a bill will pass.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/black-voters-are-so-loyal-that-thei...
I look forward to hearing more of your personal experience.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 6:08pm
P.S. The current first family of NYC. Democrats tried and true, I feel safe saying they always vote, always vote Democratic and don't feel dissed by the party. Bill met Chirlaine working in Mayor Dinkins' administration. They are part of this group ready to leave because the party is trying to curry the favor of poor whites too much?
by artappraiser on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 5:37pm
The linked poll obviously looked at more than one family. This post makes no sense.
Edit to. Add:
"Identity politics" is a slur. Here is how one dagblogger glorified chasing white voters, " ´arguing like you care about the other." If the response to posting that black voters feel that they are neglected by the Democratic Party is to point out that Latinos could attack black concerns because immigration wasn't listed, that doesn't seem like a caring message. Detailing pathology among black voters while suggesting we treat white voters with kid gloves does not seem like a caring message, "Identity politics" means that "white" issues are all that are important. Justice for minorities, immigrants, Muslims, LGBTQs, etc. are side issues because white voters say so. To support that ideology, some present personal experience of downtrodden blacks.
The Democrats have my vote because I see Republicans as racists and traitors. My concern is that by not reaching out to the black community or being openly dismissive with a clear double standard about sending a caring message, Democrats will not inspire. black voters to come to the polls in 2018. "Identity politics" sends the same message as the Republicans saying they don't "pander" to black voters. Neither is a welcoming message.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 8:35am
Pope Francis: I encourage everyone to engage in constructive forms of communication that reject prejudice towards others and foster hope and trust today.
Rmrd: No!
edit (in response to your disapproval of "arguing with people like you care about them").
by Obey on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 10:55am
Obey, I point out that black voters feel disregarded. The response is that black voters should be happy with what the Democrats offer. That is not indicative of a caring attitude, yet I'm the bad guy. Sanders and Perez reached out to white voters. Where is the outreach to minority communities? Black voters are getting pissed.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kaplan-trump-win-anger-201611...
Democrats need to be concerned about 2018 turnout.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 12:12pm
In standard business terms,
1) it's easier to keep a customer than make a customer,
2) companies often make the mistake of putting too much emphasis on new customers than retention & embedding of existing customers,
3) it's also easy to not grow the offering to retained customers - i.e. just because they came in buying X 10 years ago doesn't mean they're still content or even interested in X - tastes evolve.
4) companies often make mistakes such as "if I can sell just 1 item to every Chinese person, I'll be rich. But that doesn't mean all of China is your market. Similarly, disaffected white people may be a huge number, but it's not necessarily *your* market, or even a reachable market by itself.
5) companies evolve and drift over time, even changing the business they're in. but keep in mind #1 and #4 if taking the plunge.
6) and at the end of the day, customers need results, be they existing or new conversions.
7) loyalty programs are standard practice in every grocery chain across America, among other types of businesses. Where's the Democratic Party's? At some point the main flame's gonna get vexed seeing you eye every pretty thing that comes in the door. [which is also why the "whites are dying out, especially males - soon it'll be a multiethnic plurality as the future" isn't a great rallying cry to attract that largest US demographic, even if it might no longer be the Democrats' #1 constituent, nor is "we can count on blacks - we have to attract new blood" or the lethal "Hispanics don't vote"]
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 12:26pm
Thx PP. I get rumblings that Democrats had better focus on their core voters. If they just show up in 2018 expect votes, they may be sorely disappointed. Black voters are used to adversity. If Democrats are dismissive, many black voters may simply stay home. Being openly hostile to concerns of black voters by saying they should be happy while openly courting white voters is not going to play well.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 12:32pm
I think Perez is alienating everyone, frankly. Not just Blacks. Abortion rights activists are pissed about the flip-flop-flipping back. Economic leftists are pissed about Quist and Mello getting shafted by the DNC. Donors are (amazingly and bizarrely) scarce. And blacks I imagine should be angry too, if they're not getting heard.
i just found it annoying to see you reducing my general appeal to civility and dialogue to some nefarious sounding "glorifying chasing white voters". That wasn't what it was about. First and foremost it should apply to dialogue amongst progressives. We aren't exactly getting along too well either.
The DNC is a mess. Other institutions are out there. Hillary's new Onward Together for instance will surely marshall a lot of donor networks. Hopefully she will be more responsive to the concerns of black democrats.
by Obey on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 12:39pm
I would guess that the DNC should get much much better at marshalling money to put every even remote contest in play, and steer clear of too much "picking winners and losers" - the latter is a thankless and largely counterproductive task. The people will largely define who they want - our job is to make them look purty and keep them in gold lamé.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 12:52pm
Sure, as soon as they get some cash. But apparently the DNC is getting shunned by donors, or is that fake news?
by Obey on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 1:15pm
Heh heh heh. No, I never expected attacking the DNC to yield good results for Democrats, nor sending out its main attacker on a "unity tour".
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 1:27pm
Re: Good piece AA!
Your thanks should go to Barefooted who posted it. I actually saw cited in other media that there was a new Hillary interview out and I basically went: snore...That Barefooted recommended it made me read it.
I'm curious about fans of Hillary the Persona too. Precisely because I am not one. I always thought she would be fine for whatever role she was applying for, but I can't imagine being a fan of her as a politician or leader. I'd like to better understand the appeal to some.
I am a feminist but I just don't feel that a woman becoming Prez is a meaningful milestone. A woman being Sec. of State is plenty enough along those lines for me. To me belief that it would be is investing false meaning into the Presidency. I think making the office of President a role model is a more important problem and that people shouldn't look at it that way.
But the story of that group of women waiting outside the door just to see her and shrieking with delight when she opened the door herself, that's not about wanting to see a woman as Prez, that's pure Stage Door
JohnnieJennie fandom.I think it might help everyone, including me, that rues what's going on in our country right now because Trump got installed as Prez and is up to this or that and it's taking all the air out of the room should remind themselves this: she's right about all the haters she has. If she had gotten a few more states and was Prez, we'd still have a hell of a lot of shit going on, especially with Bill at her side. (Even if he stayed in another city, hah. The less he did publicly, the more the haters would probably conspiracize. Damned either way.) Not as bad, but still a lot not to mention there'd still be nearly the same GOP Congress. The suspicions we have from Trump having his family work with him, the Hillary haters have in spades and for much longer than we've been at it. That she handled Sec. of State with only a few accusations like Benghazi would not compare. Especially after Trump started the whole "lock her up" meme in Hillary haters heads and increased the number of haters. Everything would not be hunky dory running smoothly if she had gotten in is what I am trying to say.
Makes me realize that Bill was so skilled at doing business with enemies of the Gingrich type. That is one skill that she doesn't really have. She just seems to infuriate more, no matter what she does. From the days of being the wife of the governor of Arkansas, she infuriated. When she defended herself especially so.
There'd be less damage if she was Prez, but probably not much less sturm and drang.
by artappraiser on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 10:43am
Thanks for the correction!
by Obey on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 10:52am
Old Southern joke - this nouveau rich belle is going on an on at a dinner party about her new beau, how he buys her diamonds, got a 2nd mansion for her, is taking her to France for vacation... At each turn, one of the listeners, local society girl, says sweetly, "well that's nice". Finally the belle stops bragging for a moment and asks the girl what she does. "Mostly I do cotillion." "Cotillion? what do they teach you there?" "Well lots of things, like instead of saying 'Fuck you', you gotta say 'That's nice!'".
Hillary got the Wellesley version and went to finishing school in Arkansas. There was a punkish model, McMenamy, who said her way of getting down the catwalk was looking at people and thinking, "Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you..."
Watch Hillary's Congressional hearings from any decade for some of the best internalized "Fuck you's".
Yeah, I'm a fan.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 11:15am
You're spot on with this, I think. She's definitely got the feisty "fuck you" skill. So when she tries to cover it up, some people find that inauthentic. People who are more empathetic rather than intellectual types--my mom was very much like that, didn't read much policy, only high school education--they judge who they vote for on the authenticity. (My mom would always vote Dem if unsure because she was a bleeding heart liberal, but others who do the empath thing might not trust.)
Hillary mentions the authenticity factor in the interview, suggesting she struggles with that when "doing" anything political, when to really be herself and when to reign it in.
Well now she can really be herself.
by artappraiser on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 11:25am
Except she disagrees - women aren't allowed to be angry the way men are, candidate or not. Which is funny, I read that as my wife was showing me "The Way of the Artist" training, where "anger isn't an enemy - it's a rough friend" whereas giving up, despair, sloth, etc. are all enemies.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 12:00pm
Except some of us struggle with anger this way: We don't like it in others, not at all, especially when they act in its throes. I think it is big part of what ails the world. I think this is partly hormonal. I think this is the main reason people say the world would be better off if woman were in charge. Despite his personal pecadilloes, always suspect Bill has some hormone in excess that is normally more present in females. The personal problem might be due to a quite different hormone normally present in a higher quality in males. I realize Hillary's "fuck you's" are probably quite measured and previously thought out.That still doesn't chill my instinctive dislike. I'll always be a sucker for the "kinder gentler" and even manipulative techniques over "fuck you." Part of the reason: anger causes anxiety. Anxiety = bad. No feeling of security because of anxiety = bad. To use old gender roles that should be discarded but still currently exist: we need more moms, not more dads.
(Aside: one might wonder why a self-professed feminist would write this. Well, I believe we are all at different varying points on the sexual identity chart, and "male" and "female" are a better way to label things like hormones than they are people.)
by artappraiser on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 12:34pm
When it comes to your "aside", Hillary might quite likely agree with you. It's dancing with that paradox when you're a candidate for high office labeled by many as a female in a man's world that makes it tough to be entirely yourself. Especially if who you are doesn't conform with the stereotypical "mom".
by barefooted on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 1:16pm
Interesting on the Anger issue. Yes women have to be so much more careful about every detail of their dress and their behavior and their every word. That said, there is more to it than just a generic gender handicap she faces
Ok, much of the following is subjective, but firstly, I really liked Hillary's attitude during the Benghazi hearings. The whole relaxed fuck you attitude. I didn't like her debate attitude.
Secondly, there is an interesting contrast between her (non) reaction to Trump's invasion of her space and Bush's reaction to Gore's invasion of his space. Trump of course looked like a bully boy vulgarian, but she ended up looking like a victim of his boorishness, however resilient. That was a circumstance for her to seize. Just a little relaxed, unfazed fuck you look like Bush would have sufficed. Yet even in hindsight she doesn't consider that option.
Another point of comparison I found interesting, I remember liking Segolène Royal in her early debates with Sarkozy, where she took him down with ease. (it comes across even with the sound off I find, for the non-Gallically inclined - she starts after the 2 minute mark). And I felt she failed miserably in the 2007 debate, looking put off by Sarkozy's apparent indifference (a side-note: Sarkozy was known for his temper, and although he looked uncharacteristically calm and self-possessed, he apparently terrified the female moderator by mashing up his pens one by one just out of view of the camera during the debate).
It isn't the level of anger that matters, or amount of gesticulation or the words. It's that in the later debate she is clearly uncomfortable and unsure.
I think Merkel handled the non-handshake beautifully, although it could have been humiliating and mortifying (and probably intended as such by Trump). Again a question of looking like she is assured and in control of the situation, which made Trump look like a petulant child and/or senile deaf old fuddy-duddy.
Or what about Senator Warren? Her default setting on the ire-o-meter is pretty much 11. But popular much like angry-uncle Sanders, and popular among both men and women. To me, it's because she isn't angry so much as morally indignant.
There is the old line from Robert Redford about realizing that good acting was mostly just being able to relax and say your lines right. Hillary just isn't a great actor.
by Obey on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 3:41pm
Putin brought a big dog in to frighten Merkel knowing she had a phobia. She held up pretty well.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 1:06am
To be fair to Clinton, she did get visibly angry during the campaign on at least two occasions that I can recall off the top of my head. She was angry at the African-American woman who held a sign at a fund-raiser in Charleston, SC, quoting her saying predators need to be "brought to heel". She was angry when asked at SUNY - Purchase (I think) about her support from the fossil fuel industry.
by HSG on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 3:55pm
She can be angry. In fact, she should be angry. She should be angry at homelessness. She should be angry at being lied to about WMDs in Iraq. She should be angry about private prisons and global warming and sweat shops and off-shoring. Why isn't she?
by HSG on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 3:24pm
Amazing that even with the ascendance of the orange buffoon and his administration's plans to defund Medicaid in effect - euthanize the working poor, strip every shred of the nation's wealth to enrich sociopathic billionaire GOP backers, destroy public education, the free press and voting rights, weaken or suspend civil rights guaranteed under the Constitution, explode the deficit with tax cuts for the 1%, create an axis of tyranny from DC to Moscow while disrupting alliances with liberal progressive nations and allies, kill international climate accords and green job creation....................you offer nothing but more rants on Hillary. Remarkable.
by NCD on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 5:22pm
Is there any dispute that Trump is a disaster? Does anybody here doubt it? I don't write a lot of comments about how the earth is a spheroid that revolves around the sun. That stuff's real obvious.
We have Trump in part because of Clinton. I was hoping for some explanation from the loser how she could have done better. I was hoping for a roadmap that future candidates might follow so they wouldn't make the same mistakes she did. Weren't you?
by HSG on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 9:52pm
We have Trump in part because of Sanders. I was hoping for some explanation from the loser of the democratic primary how he could have done better to support the winner. I was hoping for a roadmap that future defeated candidates in democratic primaries might follow so they wouldn't make the same mistakes he did. Weren't you?
by ocean-kat on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 10:29pm
Clinton said she took full responsibility for the result. How exactly did she do that? In what ways was she responsible? Bernie never said he was responsible for Clinton's loss. If he did, I would love to hear how.
by HSG on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 8:33am
You're surprised that Sanders didn't take any responsibility for the damage he did to Hillary? Sanders never takes responsibility for anything he does. Not does he take any responsibility for not accomplishing anything during his years in the senate. The purity candidate is above petty real world outcomes so distains taking responsibility for them.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 3:54pm
Get over it Hal. The future of the Democratic Party is not Hillary or Bernie. It's over for Hillary, and Bernie should either join the Party or shut up.
Trumps base thinks the media and the liberals are making him fail. Assuming there are more than the usual 3 or 4 people who post here that read Dag, we need to educate them on the very bad stuff Trump wants to do to them and the country, not continue to autopsy 11/2016.
by NCD on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 11:43pm
Why is it important to you that Bernie join the party? The party is supposed to serve the people. To the extent it is not doing so, we should no longer support it. Bernie has no obligation to the party. The people are very well-informed as to the bad stuff that Trump is doing. What we need to do is provide an alternative that is clearly better for them than Trump. Bernie is doing that. Hillary started a PAC that can take dark money. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/15/us/politics/hillary-clinton-onward-to...
by HSG on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 8:38am
Nonsense - the party is supposed to serve the people IN THE PARTY. You think it's the job of the Green Party to serve industrialists and polluters? The Libertarian Party's supposed to serve devout socialists? I don't know where you get these strange ideas.
Now if the members of the party decide they want to cater more to non-members, well, that's their decision, but it's certainly not expected.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 9:59am
"[T]he party is supposed to serve the people IN THE PARTY."
Hence the Democratic Party's loss of over 1,000 seats over the past 8+ years. The party leaders, and obviously some of its registered voters, no longer perceive it as a vehicle to make positive change for the American people - regardless of party affiliation - but rather as a means for them to attain power and wealth.
by HSG on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 2:28pm
Explain how passing the ACA wasn't an attempt to make positive change for the American people regardless of party affiliation but instead increased the power and wealth of the party leaders. Explain how bailing out the auto industry wasn't an attempt to make positive change for the American people regardless of party affiliation but instead increased the power and wealth of the party leaders.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 3:48pm
Forget it, OK - he posits losing elections is the way to increase power & wealth, and as you note, ignores so much detail for the sake of his usual spin.. It's just spouting off, again and again.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 3:52pm
At least when he was defending Sanders he made mostly reasonable arguments. I disagreed and had counter arguments but his were reasonable. Now he's just spouting nonsense.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 4:28pm
Hal, as I am sure you are aware, there are huge swathes of low information American voters. Bernie loudly proclaiming he has healed, through the progressive Dem platform, and he now trusts, the Democratic Party enough to put a D after his name, would get through to even the most ill informed voter as being significant.
Bernie would be the talk of TV, the slayer of the corporate medias "both sides" do it bs.
The Dems would be certified as having evolved, newly focused, guided in whole or part by member Bern, bound for victory over the one remaining corrupt Party of money, the GOP.
by NCD on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 4:52pm
Plenty of nonsense to go around here.
1) PP, in a healthy democracy, politicians and their parties obviously serve the public. People may disagree about what the public interest is, and the politicians' public-mindedness may be disingenuous, but I can't imagine that any serious Democratic (or Republican) official would say that the party is supposed to serve the party members rather than the people.
2) Hal, you're stereotyping a large number of people and speculating uncharitably about their interests. Many people reasonably believe that courting wealthy donors is necessary to win elections, and winning elections is necessary to serve the public interest. They may be wrong. Some may be liars or hypocrites. But courting wealthy donors does not mean that you only care about wealthy people.
3) O-K, regardless of whether the Democratic Party actually serves the public interest, there is widespread perception that it does not. Asked whether "the Democratic Party is in touch with the concerns of most people in the United States today," a whopping 67 percent said no. Only 28 percent said yes. We can speculate about the reasons for this dismal perception--Fox propaganda, MSM failings, etc.--but the party surely bears substantial responsibility for its crummy brand.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 9:59pm
I know how much you like to defend Hal in these situations but this is quite a large reinterpretation of his post. Hal didn't claim the public perceives the party as being out of touch he very specifically claimed the " party leaders... no longer perceive it as a vehicle to make positive change for the American people - regardless of party affiliation - but rather as a means for them to attain power and wealth." I don't think my questions about the ACA and the auto bailout in any way qualifies as comparable nonsense to hal's claim. I think they were right on point I think they deserve a good response. I've never found a discussion by non sequitur as having much value.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 10:53pm
OK, your comment was unfairly lumped in under the snarky "nonsense" header, which I only tossed in because it's such empty rejoinder. I agree with you that most Democratic leaders have the public's interest at heart (hence my criticism of Hal in #2) and that ACA and the auto-bailout actually served the public interest. I wasn't reinterpreting Hal but rather making my own point that Democrats are failing to make the case. Let's address your examples in particular. ACA and the bailouts were flawed in that they provided the appearance kowtowing to big business--finance, insurance, auto--while average Americans suffered bankruptcy, foreclosure, high premiums, and exorbitant drug prices. The bailouts were necessary, but they should been delivered through gritted teeth and coupled with prosecuting banks and providing mortgage relief to home owners. In pursuing ACA, the administration was far too cozy with the insurers. Their support helped pass the bill but the compromises undermined its effectiveness and contributed to the perception that Democrats cared more about the insurers than the people.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 10:35am
No, Michael - the party serves its constituents first, and govern accordingly,the "healthy" or otherwise, and if you look at the Tories and Labor, Canada or Mexico's parties, Germany's, Israel's hodgepodge, etc, they all serve their party members first, though elected officials (not party members or party officials) of whatever party do have an obligation to provide services to non party members, and if they want to stay elected *MAY* cater to the public at large. Certainly not necessary nor unusual.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 11:26pm
"A party is like a business", he said, "and party members are like the shareholders, you see..." his voice trailed off as my teeth clamped down harder on the blanket, stifling the screams.
hashtag Covfefe
by Obey on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 3:03am
He misspelled #covdefe, the coven surrounding Auto de Fe in condemning the #crookedpress to the penance and suffering required by the #trumpquisition
(though #covfefe is semi-coincidentally Ivanka's new Chinese brand of poodle shoes (trademarked) meaning "covers feet feet" in pidgin English). Spokesmen weren't able to confirm whether the shoes *look like* poodles or are *made from* poodles, just that they're hoping to give Ivanka brands and exploitation of Chinese workers a "softer fuzzier feel".
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 4:30am
All those parties you mention in healthy(-ish) democracies strive to elect people who will serve the public's interest...at least their perception of the public's interest. The exceptions are corrupt political machines like United Russia that seek wealth/power for their benefactors and narrow interest/identity parties like Shas. In a healthy democracy, major parties have to win independents and swing voters to get elected. If they professed to represent only the interests of party members, they'd be dead in the water.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 10:56am
Show me where Tories professed to take care of everyone. They pick their Brexit and tax cuts and "tough on defense" simply drive it through. They gave a big fuck you to Scotland - no catering to alternate views, alternate constituencies, ondependence and what not - even the *disussion* isn't on the table. That's reality, at least as of my lifetime, probably before. Sure, the PRI in Mexico will bribe voters in various ways, but it's mostly payoffs to get them to the voting booth, nothing after.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 3:12pm
Theresa May: “The Conservative party is going to deliver for everyone across the whole country; a country that works for everyone, not just the privileged few.”
Took about 15 seconds to google.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 5:07pm
Sorry, shouldn't have said "professed" - meant "displayed". From May's "dementia tax" to Thatcher's hated poll tax, it's a bitter wretched party continually pushing to lay Britain's problems at the feet of the poor, of the old, the sick, of immigrants, of a variety of scapegoats. Sure, our own Republicans will lie and say they represent the common man, "real Americans", instead of the richest and best-connected and whitest and malest. And of course you can find some quote of Donald Trump saying any damned thing contradicting himself 20 seconds after. Anyway, I still contend parties serve the folks who fit in their definition of their values and goals, and while payong lip-service to the rest, that's what we largely see.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 5:31pm
Obviously, political parties often serve special interests, but the question was whose interests they are supposed to serve. They are supposed to serve the public, is why Theresa May et al profess to doing so.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 6:08pm
May as PM is supposed to serve the public, insincere as it is. May as party member can do as the party likes. Here's typical "serve" from Prager.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/01/2017 - 12:36am
May did not say "I" or "the government" or "my administration." She said, "The Conservative party is going to deliver for everyone across the whole country." Because she and every other sane person in the world recognize that the public expects political parties to serve the public.
Oy, this is such a stupid argument. Why can't you just admit the point, and we can all move on with our lives?
by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 06/01/2017 - 11:27am
Because it's bullshit. All around the world. "We'll do this, we'll do that." Parties run an agenda, not open brunch. My way or highway.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/01/2017 - 1:53pm
MW: in a healthy democracy no politician "would say that the party is supposed to serve the party members rather than the people."
In a healthy democracy, politicians would be held accountable by voters for what they do or do not do, not for what they say.
by NCD on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 12:22am
Yep, our democracy is ailing, and at least one of the parties does not serve the public's interest. But we were talking about who's interests political parties are supposed to serve.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 10:39am
AA, thanks for reminding us about this...
Trump is such a disaster that we forget that he is also a symptom of a deeper problem that would be with us regardless of the election outcome. If there is any silver lining to Trump's victory, it is that we have been forced to recognize and grapple with the profound societal malaise that is undermining the country and the western world. In Europe, many take solace in the defeats of Wilder and Le Pen. They pride themselves on Europe's resilience as if the wolves were not still howling at the door. In the U.S., the wolf is in the house. We can no longer ignore it.
by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 9:09am
I sure never forgot - the Hunting of the President, the destruction of Al Gore as Ritz Hotel-Love Canal-Invented the Internet robot, the 2000 bizarre Supreme Court case, the Swift Boating of John Kerry, Trump-led Birtherism and the ravings of the Tea Party to recue the beached GOP, and the fully contrived Benghazi and Email-gate "scandals", tied yo Gingrich, Tom "the Hammer" DeLay sending out state troopers for Dem legislators, and an endless supply of bizarre cohorts. We kill ourselves over say Buddhist fund raising - they revel in it.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 1:13pm
Yeah, I was bracing for the onslaught of congressional investigations and Fox/Limbaugh fautrage, and in the end I do believe that is exactly what brought her candidacy gone, it wasn't the "deplorables" remark, it's that at times it appears the Clintons surround themselves with unethical and even deplorable people. People keep reaching for the deeper meaning of this past election, but there isn't one, people know the Clinton's and many were wary of supporting them. Because while Pres. Clinton's presidency was marked by a booming economy and fewer people in poverty, particularly minorities, it was also marked by chaos and corruption.
I really liked Hillary the second time around, I'd grown to respect her work ethic, her intelligence, and her drive. I thought then and believe now, she would have been a great first woman president, I was really ready for that too. Ultimately, I am still glad she did run it was exhilarating for so many women to watch her, and because of her the resistance was born, and maybe that is exactly what we needed.
by tmccarthy0 on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 4:29pm
Since I was a 20-something, I've thought we needed 3 parties (Conservative, Liberal, Moderate) to truthfully represent the actual electorate, but sometimes it appears we may need 4 now:
From Analysis: In President Trump's wake, divisions mark both Democratic and Republican parties by Cathleen Decker @ The L.A. Times, May 31
by artappraiser on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 11:26am
Really? When I was 20 something I was a Republican. (OK it was because my parents were Republicans)
What i realize now is that the Democrats are a very loose coalition of idealistic people. There are many common themes, but there is a serious purity test that often ruins the Big Picture of our goals for the country.
The GOP is a group that will stick together regardless of how unpleasant. They have no goals for the country except to do whatever it takes to gain power.
Tom Perez just might be tough enough. I sure hope so
by CVille Dem on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 8:27pm
I think conservatives have real focused goals for the country, and #1 is to shrink the Federal government for everything but defense. You don't think the Freedom Caucus is focused? I think they are pretty damn focused, and willing to screw their Republican brethren (as to pleasing constituencies) to get what they want. They want state governments to be "free" to do as much as the governing as possible, and it follows that you are then "free" to move if you don't like how a state governs. Most of them ran because they passionately believe in that, not because they wanted a career as politicians. A strong second goal in such conservatives would be to make it as sure as possible that judicial appts.agree with conservative ideology. They'd be isolationist on trade. Anti-abortion of course. Such ideologues about the Federal government that they won't go for pork barrel spending sometimes even for their own district.
It's the less conservative Republicans that sway to and fro and bounce around varying policy preferences with a cafeteria manner and in a moral relativist fashion. Same for the more conservative and middling Dems. Hence, the least focused party would be a Moderate "middle" party. They'd be quite reasonable and rational as to things like confirming judicial appts., wouldn't go so ideological, as long as the jurist seems not to be swayed by any strong ideology. They'd be budget hawks, anti-waste, pro-business and trade, reasonably strong on defense but with a tough eye on spending by same. Pro education, especially as regards those in need, the "a rising tide floats all boats" thing., reasonable concern for civil liberties, strongly anti-nanny state and that includes the right of a woman to chose, but they would also be against many behaviorial laws that liberals would like to legislate or incentivize. Strong on crime but not illogically to the point of causing recidivism. Etc.
I think the GOP is just as divided as the Dems. Maybe a little less scattered. There's more ideological purity in their factions than in Dem factions. There's strongly pro-business and pro-trade vs isolationism and anti-trade. There's strongly pro-immigrant (either as basically slave workers, i.e. "Americans won't do my work" or "immigrants are our greatest asset" Guiiani style, vs. xenophobic anti-immigrant....This Congress is a mess because they are strongly divided on so many things...and then the got iconoclast Trump at the top, what he believes literally changes minute to minute.
Liberal party: see Bernie Sanders!
by artappraiser on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 10:56pm
Another "reminder" just came to me:
“However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.”
― George Washington
More here:
George Washington’s Farewell Warning
Partisanship would lead to the “ruins of public liberty,” our first president said. He was more right than he knew.
By JOHN AVLON, January 10, 2017
by artappraiser on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 4:03pm
Your point about the Wellesley address well taken by me. As it reinforces what's in my quote. Intellectually she totally understands the swings who were torn between her and him. Unlike many of her supporters. She just can't connect with them, can't sell them, and she knows it. She knows they were googling to decide. She would do the same, because she's got the same kind of approach to things. That she's got the same kind of approach to things is why she can't connect with certain folks. It's kind of ironic, get what I am saying?
by artappraiser on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 10:53am
As an enthusiastic Hillary voter I can tell you that I truly admire her for the work she has done on behalf of women, children, blacks (and civil rights in general). I admire her for trying to get health care for all's foot in the door. Yes, she used the word, "deplorable," and that was an unending concern trolling meme for the media. When trump described grabbing pussy, used "hell," and "damn" in his everyday language, (including when he was introducing a minister ->>>>>"What the hell?" I am no prude, but she was treated so unfairly it only made me admire her more when I saw her grace under pressure.
But if you are truly incredulous about my admiration for her, I would encourage you to simply rewatch the debates. If you don't have time for that, just look at the last one. You will see a knowledgeable, prepared professional with ideas, proposals, and plans, Actual plans for how she would move forward on all the issues I care about. And you would also see an idiot, spouting pretty much nothing but babble.
Now I know that you weren't asking why she was better than Trump, but why anyone could be enthusiastic about a President Hillary Clinton. Well, I was, and I really resent that presumably progressive thinking people swallowed all the BS that was thrown her way.
by CVille Dem on Mon, 05/29/2017 - 4:53pm
CVille, I'm just seeing your response now. Thanks for this. It wasn't meant as a personal dig at Clinton. On the contrary, I couldn't imagine people going up looking for a hug from Kerry or Gore after their election losses. Nobody was personally invested in them as people rather than simply as the candidate most likely to win the election for the Dems. And this despite the fact that she shares Kerry's and Gore's weaknesses in not being a"natural politician" to use her own phrase.
And I'm not "incredulous" about anyone's admiration for her. I see it in the continuing resentment, as you put it, about her election loss. And it's a resentment that is different than the resentment directed at Nader voters after Gore's loss. It's a very personal one, not one of mere political calculation.
by Obey on Thu, 06/01/2017 - 3:03am
“I take absolute personal responsibility,” Clinton replied. “I was the candidate, I was the person who was on the ballot. I am very aware of the challenges, the problems, the shortfalls that we had.”
Powerful statement. As a follow-up, any good, heck competent, journalist, would have asked: "Can you identify a few areas where a different response to those challenges, problems, and shortfalls would have led to a different result on election night?"
I read this article and didn't find one example.
This isn't about kicking the loser when she's down, it's about winning future elections like the one Clinton just lost to the least popular Presidential candidate in recent times.
by HSG on Sun, 05/28/2017 - 11:20am
This piece just seems to complement the original link, so here it is.
by barefooted on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 12:07pm
Great link!
by Obey on Tue, 05/30/2017 - 12:48pm
More Hillary today @ NYMag, including "slagging the DNC", as the lede puts in, from Weds. interview at Recode’s CodeCon by its co-founder
Hillary Clinton on Why She Gave Those Goldman Sachs Speeches: ‘They Paid Me’
By Adam K. Raymond, May 31
Besides Goldman Sachs and the DNC, also quotes on Russian hacking, private email server, right wing media control & her political future.
by artappraiser on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 7:15pm
It's as though the dam has finally burst, isn't it? Now that she's started opening up, suddenly everything she's been holding back for so long is tumbling out ... maybe that f-you attitude needs some air. ;-)
by barefooted on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 8:16pm
Yes! There are more quotes from the same interview @ The Hill, the reporter says straight out Clinton struck a far more defiant tone in the appearance at Recode's Code Conference than she had during her previous post-election accounts
by artappraiser on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 8:41pm
P.S. I noted with interest in the video, but not in the text, the reporter says she spoke of Trump's data as better than what she could afford, well funded, so she apparently is not dismissive at all about that angle of the data he used being helpful, as some on the left side of the aisle have been. I presume, but am not sure that's the whole Cambridge Analytics thing.
by artappraiser on Wed, 05/31/2017 - 8:55pm
It's more than the Cambridge Analytica thing (plus look who owns Cambridge Analytica but a successful group devoted to rigging and theowing elections worldwide, but yes, the benefits to party of a billionaire's multiyear pet project?
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/01/2017 - 12:11am
I haven't really followed this thread of the story. What do you mean 'more than Cambridge Analytica'? Did Trump have other big data advantages?
by Obey on Thu, 06/01/2017 - 1:57am
More: know who SCL is
Long & interesting backgrounder from Medium including Flynn's involvement representing SCL Group for defense contracts!!!! (yes, of course they landed one in March)
The Russian Connection, of course
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/01/2017 - 4:07am
Thanks. This below connects a few dots for me that may have been obvious to others on the Russia-Trump collusion. I hadn't seen the obvious need for ongoing communication and collaboration before. But the point below about guiding the deployment of content seems important.
by Obey on Thu, 06/01/2017 - 4:21am
DNC data types hitting back now against her account of the situation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/06/01/ex-dnc-aide-hits-back-hard-at-clinton-says-her-campaign-ignored-its-data-on-michigan-pennsylvania-wisconsin/?utm_term=.a35a29fc63a2
by Obey on Thu, 06/01/2017 - 11:39am
Worse, Debbie Wasserman-Schultz was an anchor around Hillary's neck for 1 1/2 years, and people seemed to think *Hillary* appointed her, so every screwup not only hurt the DNC's limited effectiveness, it became grist for the anti-Hillary Hate cottage industry. (I seldom saw Obama and DWS in the same sentence - things dont stick to him the way they stick to her...)
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/01/2017 - 12:24am