MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
|
|
|
From the Readers
- barefooted 8 months ago
- PeraclesPlease 9 months ago
- PeraclesPlease 10 months ago
- PeraclesPlease 11 months ago
- PeraclesPlease 11 months ago
- PeraclesPlease 1 year ago
- artappraiser 1 year ago
- PeraclesPlease 1 year ago
- PeraclesPlease 1 year ago
- artappraiser 1 year ago
Creative corner
- PeraclesPlease 10 months ago
- PeraclesPlease 11 months ago
- PeraclesPlease 1 year ago
- artappraiser 1 year ago
- artappraiser 1 year ago
From the Dagbloggers
- Michael Wolraich 10 months 3 weeks ago
- Danny Cardwell 3 years 1 month ago
- Doctor Cleveland 3 years 10 months ago
- PeraclesPlease 4 years 2 weeks ago
- PeraclesPlease 4 years 2 weeks ago
- William K. Wolfrum 4 years 2 weeks ago
- William K. Wolfrum 4 years 2 weeks ago
- Doctor Cleveland 4 years 1 month ago
- Doctor Cleveland 4 years 1 month ago
- William K. Wolfrum 4 years 2 months ago
Hits of the Day
A New (and Old) Antisemitism in France
By Bruce Levine on Fri, 06/20/2014 - 9:17am |France has Europe's largest remaining Jewish population, with more than one-half million Jews. We have family in Paris, and both of my daughters came to know their grandmother's first cousin quite well when they studied there. She and her husband survived the war and they are fiercely French.
So what is the future for European Jewry? With the far-right garnering 25 percent of the French vote in the recent EU elections,and with a growing and increasingly hostile segment of the muslim population, Jews -- or at least visibly Jewish Jews -- are genuinely concerned.
Is this circumstantial, i.e. is it all about Israel, or is it OK to view what is going on in light of a voluminous and centuries-old historical record? That question is rhetorical, really. The concern about European Jewry is anything but rhetoric.
URL:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-new-anti-semitism-rising-in-france/2014/06/19/1da8ae34-1a71-4f50-893a-9842af51e3ce_story.html?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost
- Add new comment
- 4109 reads
Comments
When you're cracking jokes about gas chambers and belittling the holocaust, I think it's safe to say it's not all about Israel, but is your standard stone-age anti-Semitism. I'm not only appalled but amazed that Dieudonné is paid to say these things on stage as a "comedian". We have our anti-Semitism moments in the US, but at least when Mel Gibson (for example) says something one-tenth as offensive as Dieudonné's comments, he is rightfully shamed. I'm definitely ignorant as to how bad anti-Semitism has gotten in Europe, which leads me to wonder if maybe I'm deluded about it not being as bad here.
by Verified Atheist on Fri, 06/20/2014 - 9:36am
I wish that this was only about Monsieur Dieiudonne.
by Bruce Levine on Fri, 06/20/2014 - 10:18am
Oh, yes, I read the rest of the article, I just went for the lowest hanging fruit. 37% of the French are openly anti-Semitic. Wow.
by Verified Atheist on Fri, 06/20/2014 - 11:06am
The hysterical right is claiming France will be 40% Muslim by 2030, when it will be roughly 10.3% from 7.5% today. Most of this growth is in Marseilles, the immigrant port city facing across to Algiers.
France included Algeria as an integral part of the nation - not a colony - for 150 years, and in the 1961 war for independence, 1 million Muslims died - thanks France. So now 50 years later a few incidents cause us to freak out about Muslims?
What this article seems to miss is that the right & Le Pen hate Muslims - certainly much more than any hatred of Jews. The French are passing laws against girls wearing headdress (not full face covering) - how should Muslims feel?
Sure, a comedian telling anti-Semitic jokes is disgusting - could we find 1 racist American comedian to focus on and use as a symbol for how 310 million Americans have gone gung-ho anti-black & Hispanic, and pick every racist incident of the last 10 years (including those in other countries)?
Really, the freakout over Muslims in Europe is the major racist event of the last 10 years - the effect on Jews is just a side-show.
by AnonymousPP (not verified) on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 3:33am
You're right that the anti-Muslim sentiment might be even stronger. I'd say it definitely is, but 37% is a reasonably high bar. That said, I 'm pretty sure that it's a bar that the anti-Muslim sentiment does exceed. That said, if you're Jewish, then it is understandable that you would focus on the 37% of the French population that is anti-Semitic, just as I'm constantly amazed and disgusted by the more than half of the American population that is anti-atheist.
by Verified Atheist on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 10:10am
[Google ate my thoughtful reply - here's a re-do]
Here's the survey by which the ADL proclaims people "anti-semitic"
It's rather curious & ironic to have "Jews are more loyal to Israel over their own country" combined with "emigration to Israel jumped by 60% last year" (and is expecting another jump of 60% - roughly 1.5% of French Jewish population off to Israel in 2 years?)
I'm relieved to see most don't blame Jews for the world wars or think that Jews favor their own group over others, and 75% think anti-Semitism isn't caused by Jews behavior.
So what is that heightened anti-semitism about? “Israelis behave like Nazis towards the Palestinians,” was reported as the most common anti-Semitic statement by 48 per cent of people polled."
uh, wow - it's anti-Semitic to be troubled by Palestinian human rights? (ok, to be sure, Israelis "behave like Nazis" is a pretty outrageous hyperbole, but a French general who'd been part of killing 1 million Algerians declared Fallujah the worst war crime in recent history - a bit challenged, these folks).
As for whether Jews control this or that, for a group with 2% of the US population, their influence in politics/Washington, Hollywood, media, business & Wall Street, as well as lobbying is way about their population ratio - higher than women, blacks, Hispanics, gays, Asians, etc.
As Manny Friedman sums up, why so modest? This Jewish mag has a list of heavy Jewish media hitters - is it anti-Semitic? Perhaps we should say Jews don't *completely* control world politics and the economy to be clear ;-)
Denying the holocaust - yeah, that's quite bad. Of course the ADL didn't find that. Some pseudo-Nazi salute from the same comedian/clown.
Meanwhile, anti-Arab racism in France is really bad, unemployment is entrenched, as is anti-Arab discrimination, poverty, etc. Instead of seeing this bad state of affairs, we get our 2nd major article (after Newsweek) on an asshole comedian. How'd you feel if multiple French presidents declared your religion "extreme" and curtailed legal due process on deporting immigrants and outlawed particular headdress? How's it look like France supporting the overthrow of Libya, and the situation backing insurgents in Syria to overthrow the government? Must suck to be a French Arab. Wonder what Camus would think.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 1:54pm
Even your curious assessment of what is happening in France won't ruin my vacation.
If you think it is not antisemitism for a French person to compare Israel to Nazis so be it.
As to. Jewish emigration from France is highest level in 45 years. And you conclude that's what? Nothing to do with anxiety their status on France? So be it.
by Bruce Levine on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 2:34pm
Jewish emigration to... Israel, no? so I said "ironic" - loyal but leaving?
Did I not say "ok, to be sure, Israelis "behave like Nazis" is a pretty outrageous hyperbole..."?
For a lawyer, your attention to detail is pretty poor.
In any case, I'd like someone to pay attention the poor and marginalized in France occasionally.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 2:50pm
Meanwhile, anti-Arab racism in France is really bad, unemployment is entrenched, as is anti-Arab discrimination
Wow, what a powerful argument. Bruce how can you be discussing anti-semitism in France when, in PP's opinion "anti-Arab racism in France is really bad."
Although it seems to me that anti-gay discrimination is even worse in France.
A physical anti-gay attack was reported every two days, a rise of 54 percent from the previous year, and attacks on the whole rose by 78 percent.
I would say that we shouldn't discuss anti-Arab racism and focus on anti-gay discrimination in France..... except that its even worse for gays in Uganda.
I have to say it, PP your discussion of anti-Arab racism in France really trivializes the suffering of the gays in Uganda which is so much worse. So unless someone can find something worse than anti-gay oppression in Uganda all posts about bad stuff must now be about Uganda.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 3:45pm
Thanks OK. I think PP enjoys a good argument and strength for such I have not. Cheers.
by Bruce Levine on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 4:07pm
I slightly disagree, I think PP enjoys a
goodargument. He thinks people reject his unusual arguments because they aren't PC. imo people reject his unusual arguments because they aren't good i.e. not very convincing or relevant.by ocean-kat on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 4:24pm
OK, when are you going to write a story about some of your cool experiences you allude to -- like just cruising around the country and meeting people and traveling with them and stuff? Makes me pine for the open road and all.
by Bruce Levine on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 5:31pm
Calling people "racist" because they object to Israeli treatment of Palestinians is bullshit - is that "not PC"? no, it's common sense.
What a bunch of crap victimhood definition of "anti-semitism". Perhaps objecting to Netanyahu should be labeled anti-semitism too? No, the Israelis aren't acting like "Nazis" - they're acting like Afrikaaners during the time of Apartheid. Feel better? Think those 37% French "anti-semites" would agree to this framing?
The ADL has certainly jumped the shark - these latest polls are just bait-and-switch.
Vague things like thinking American Jews have too much say in world politics, media, etc. - well, yeah, if they can keep war with Iran and Syria and Iraq as our #1 priorities, then it's too much say. From the average earthling's perspective, America has too much say in the world's affairs, and as the 2% of US Jews have inordinate influence on US affairs vs. US Hispanics, blacks, Asians, Arabs, the implication wouldn't be hard to draw. Is it the whole story? certainly not - but the polls aren't looking for the whole story - they're looking to paint countries and peoples as bad, for a variety of political purposes.
As I tried to note with the Friedman link - AIPAC publicly pronounces and brags how much effect they have - but to agree AIPAC is very effective makes one anti-semitic - if you're not thrilled with the effect. If you are thrilled with the effect? You're just a good non-racist fella. Lovely. So lovely that Mitt Romney goes to raise money in Israel during the last presidential elections - am I allowed to use that as an example of too much influence?
Got any more "do you still beat your wife?" litmus tests?
And no, I don't hear fuck all about concern for poor North African immigrants in France, instead it's articles about only the feelings and worries of French Jews. The last time around, Bruce was bitching about mean mean Hugo Chavez, and how all the Jews there were worried and were thinking of leaving (or leaving) for Miami - no realistic effort to gauge how well Chavez had used oil money to take care of the Venezuelan poor, how he compared to the typical dictator siphoning off billions for Swiss bank accounts.
This WaPo reference to the stupid Muslim comedian is like pulling out snippets from Rev Wright or some rapper as an excuse how scary blacks are, ignoring high black employment, stop-and-search, entrenched anti-black racism, ghetto living... the situation for North African Muslims in France is very similar to that of blacks in the US. - including 150 years of occupation. The chorus about the Muslim takeover of Europe is continuous - and hate speech in itself.
[caveat - when a video gets "millions of hits" on YouTube, not all of those hits have to be supporters - they might be gawking to see how awful this guy is. Note that the French authorities have shut the guy down so they're just playing videos from 2009 - i.e. France disapproves - just like Galliano having his career killed over his comments - even though France has to maintain some aspects of free speech. In the US, there would be no grounds for shutting the guy down - he could have a seat on Fox TV]
And yes, the acceptance of the Le Pens in the last election is a scary turn of events - for Jews, for Muslims, for sane people, etc.
Yeah, it's "un-PC" to try to put world events in perspective - instead, this bunch likes gathering around the latest micro-detail and getting in an uproar, ignoring all context and surrounding circumstances. Lather, rinse, repeat.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 9:59pm
PP logic. French can't hate Jews becaus they hate Arabs. But they call Israelis nazis because they mistreat Arabs.
Then PP doesn't like name calling so he engages in just that.
Perhaps PP should be a bit more concerned about the resurgence of hate in his little expat paradise, where the Golden Dawn maggot fascists are rearing their ugly head. How's it going over there? Comfy? Speaking out over there or living the good life while hate springs eternal.
I am so sorry I upset you by writing about Jews. Man do you hate when that happens. Here's the thing, I don't work for you.
And thanks for your concern about my lawyering. I'll worry about what my paying clients think.
Take the last word.
by Anonymous (not verified) on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 10:42pm
Not sure why my name didn't show up there, sorry. I was trying to link to this article about the Golden Dawn, Nazi salutes and all.
by Bruce Levine on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 10:50pm
typical stupid rejoinder, twisting what I say to pretend you're responding. The French fucks like Le Pen can certainly hate lots of people - that's their job description. The French majority can dislike Israeli action - and misuse the "Nazi" analogy for a more apt "Apartheid" analogy - so they're not as intellectual as their reputation says - sue them. In the meantime, perhaps the Israelis can take meaningful steps towards solving the Palestinian problem so my grandkids won't still be discussing, and it won't then matter if we mistake "Jew" with "Israel" - both will be positive.
hit jobs against North African Muslims don't help Jews or any other minority. Le Pen and his cro-magnon revanchist political movement is the problem - not an African face in France. yes, physical attacks on Jews and property is a problem - some comments, not so much - I'm sure I can get lots of racist comments in East St. Louis, Algiers Louisiana, etc - sticks and stones and all that.
Re: Greece, it's a country full of primitives that shouldn't have been let in the EU, much less its side-kick Cyprus. Maybe the economic/tax-avoidance meltdown will take it out, but I doubt it. Good enough for you? Is the existence of a neo-Nazi group supposed to be significant takedown for me or the EU? Yeah, they let in Croatia as well, who probably have more fascists - damn Balkans - nice for vacation, shit for moral society.
I don't mind you writing about Jews - write more, like the complete story, rather than some sob story about nobody loves me, everybody hates me, gonna go eat worms - I think I read that one already once or twice. Yes, it pisses me off to see North Africans trashed unmercifully as the poster child of French/EU problems - here's a historical reference, including the rise of LePen and the anti-immigrant cause in France. It's been going on a long time - since the 1700's. Yes, poor downtrodden people do often act badly, but that's certainly not all there is to it.
Last word: get some compassion for Palestinians and maybe that ADL number for "anti-semitism" will come down without any other actions required - yes, "Jewish" doesn't equal "Israel", but as Mom says, we are known by the company we keep, or even the bands we listen to.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:12pm
Actually PP, I already told you -- I work not for you. I write about what I write about, and candidly you are the only person on this website who has ever challenged this Jew for writing about his People. It's absurd dude.
Stupid rejoinder? You are a pip dude. I wrote about antisemitism in France, and you bait and switch over to anti-muslim discrimination in France.
by Bruce Levine on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:13pm
write what you want - if you adopt France's xenophobia, I'll call you out, that's all. You wrote about antisemitism linking a fucking article about an African Muslim comedian in France tied to Le Pen, that's more attacking Muslims than the far right. And your article refers to the shitty ADL survey that claims 37% of France is anti-semitic just because they think Israel acts like assholes to Palestinians - maybe your clients get their money's worth, but for free we see the worst of your logic.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:20pm
Sticks and stones PP -- they don't get very far in this milieu. I posted an article that I found interesting in the Washington Post, because it's about my People. And you go batshit crazy. I think that says more about you than it does about me.
I think you're strange.
by Bruce Levine on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:22pm
Yes, it's about your People - and you lose context as to the other people.
Just like Chavez became evil because some wealthy Jews in Venezuela felt threatened - suddenly compassion for the starving exploited majority of Venezuela is of no concern, his successful re-distribution of resources is anathema. The horrors - they had to fly to Miami, almost like the saga of the Exodus boat all over!
Perspective & context, Bruce - that's all I'm asking.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:29pm
Venezuela is another example when you went absolutely batshit crazy when I wrote about the Jews under Chavez. You hated that.
So your entire thesis against yours truly -- one whose life on the internet is plain as day for all to see because I don't hide my identity -- boils down to this. By writing about my People, by calling them my People, I demonstrate a lack of compassion for others. Balderdash man, fucking ridiculous.
by Bruce Levine on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:35pm
Context & perspective, Bruce - all I'm asking. Those Jews in Salonika were welcomed by the Muslim Ottomans even as the Spanish Christians were converting or deporting them. Who'da thunk it? How much does French antisemitism *actually* exist (not by ADL standards), and how much is caused by Le Pen & allies, vs. North African Muslims?
*YOU* think you're writing about Jews. I see you also writing about Jews, rightists, North Africans, spanish & indigenous Venezuelans, Turks, Palestinians, etc. I'm not invested in 1 group, so I see the others in the story.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:41pm
But you don't have standing to tell others what to write about. Again., PP you are just a bully. Seriously it's sad because you could contribute if you tried. But you hijacked my thread because you think I wrote about Jews. It is all here Peracles.
When you come down to it, you once again just show what a petulant, rude person you really are.
At least I write about something. All you do is tear -- or try in an annoying way -- others down.
Again, I posted something on Friday. No biggie. And PP must have had no plans this weekend so he takes it out on moi whom he decides has no context. You really are a peculiar egg. In the process he attacks my vocation, my compassion for others and it is just part of a pattern.
What is the matter with you man?
by Bruce Levine on Mon, 06/23/2014 - 6:10am
I never told you what to write about - I just said I'd comment.
"But you hijacked my thread because you think I wrote about Jews." - uh, you mean I'm obsessed with all Jewish debates? No, I used to hang out with a lot of North Africans, and demeaning them and dismissing them pisses me off. Same thing with Turks in Germany, and Pakistanis from UK - there's no Jewish element to that saga. The "Muslims taking over Europe" freakout is a real pisser.
Just like the thing that pissed me off re: you & Chavez was that he'd made a pretty good go at distributing wealth and opportunity to the poor, and yet the US still fomented a coup, sanctions, etc. That a few of the wealthy decided to abandon this land of inequality for sunny Miami struck me as spoiled or maybe a so-what moment.
"At least I write about something." - I've written my share of diaries, thanks, and I've taken enough time with long comments. Sorry if it wasn't a learning experience for you.
"In the process he attacks my vocation" - sorry, just couldn't get my head around how a lawyer could miss that I'd written the Nazi comment was hyperbole. Don't you have to skim 100 page briefs in the morning to be ready for trial on any detail?
Anyway, it gets tiring trying to write carefully and then people just scramble what I said & write what they will.
"All you do is tear others down." - did I mention I'm concerned about opportunity for North Africans in France/Europe and the indigenous peoples of Venezuela? thought that'd bring a tear to your eye, kinda that "Up With People" vibe. Oh well, I tried.
Alright, honest - I'm done.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/23/2014 - 8:01am
If you're really wanting context about exactly how strong the fringe Le Pen party is (AKA the National Front), check out the Wikipedia article:
Now, as you say, the National Front is also anti-Muslim (and anti-immigrant in general), so that does make one think that their problem with Jews/Israel probably has little to do with how they treat Muslim inhabitants of Israel. So, maybe, maybe 12% of the 37% is concerned with how Israel treats their Muslim inhabitants. Maybe. But that still leaves a whopping 25% to be concerned about, n'est-ce pas?
by Verified Atheist on Mon, 06/23/2014 - 8:35am
And your article refers to the shitty ADL survey that claims 37% of France is anti-semitic just because they think Israel acts like assholes to Palestinians
Like so much of your comments that is a complete fabrication. Again one must answer “probably true” to a majority of the anti-Semitic stereotypes, there are 11. One is not included in the 37% if one answers "probably true" to 5 or 4 or 3 or 2 and its simply not true that if just 1, "just because they think Israel acts like assholes to Palestinians" ADL would deem you anti-semitic.
I actually think the ADL survey is quite generous. While convoluted reasoning might cause someone who is not anti-semitic to answer "probably true" to 2 or 3 statements. I'd consider anyone who agreed with 4 or 5 anti-semitic. But the ADL survey would not.
If you had any intellectual integrity at all you'd retract that statement and issue an apology. Either you're a bald faced liar or your reading comprehension and education is so deficient you should be laughed off the pages of dagblog.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/23/2014 - 4:28pm
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/24/2014 - 5:44am
Have you ever admitted to being wrong? Prior to ocean-kat making this point (repeatedly now, though I can hardly blame her since it seems that it still hasn't sunken in yet for you), I thought you had a valid point that perhaps the 37% was overstating things, as it wouldn't be the first time that invalid conclusions were drawn from a clumsy survey. OK's point has far more substance than yours did, however, and yet the best intellectual argument you can come up with is akin to a pouty face.
by Verified Atheist on Tue, 06/24/2014 - 8:46am
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/24/2014 - 9:41am
Just to be clear:
1) many French think Jews have too much influence - politics, media, etc. This was what the poll said. Surprise surprise, at 2% the US population & less elsewhere, Jews have inordinate amount of influence - that's fact. "too much" is a judgment term - but not surprising. anti-semitic? YMMV
2) you ignore the gist of what I wrote - one of the litmus tests for new anti-semitism is disapproving of Israel. You can read it if you Google Israeli commentaries about the ADL poll - some don't think the ADL goes far enough. Assume you know how to Google. I just clarified the poll for those thinking it was profound. If you'd read as well as you claim, you'd understand that most of the questions were 1.
3) The Nazi was a red herring - you obsessed on it (even though I pointed it out as hyperbole). Treating Palestinians like shit - that's the complaint - ain't that tough, brainiac. For your sometimes ability to reason, you're petty and unable to contemplate little details - funny, I noted when Michael W wrote much the same thing as I in other posts, this quirk didn't appear. Much of it's just personal - PP writes, your brain clouds, and you must find some way to diagree.
[Comment edited TOS]
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 06/25/2014 - 1:16am
You just proved the anti-Semitism of the beliefs of those folks who answered that survey, you just wrote that the French believe that Jewish people have too much influence over everything for just being 2% of the population. That is a stereotype, did you know that? I know you don't read, so let me just paste in what you will not read, according to the Dept of State the definition of Anti-Semitism includes
I mean you are absolutely incredible and seem to have a very poor understanding of the definition of anti-Semitism. Just an FYI, the European Forum on Anti-Semitism supports the State Department definition of anti-Semitism. But hey don't let actual facts get in the way of your utter BS.
[COMMENT EDITED, TOS WARNING --MW]
by tmccarthy0 on Wed, 06/25/2014 - 8:14am
[Comment edited TOS]
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 06/25/2014 - 12:33pm
TM, in this vitriolic comment you lecture on the definition of antisemitism while ignoring, or else simply not understanding, the very different definitions of two key words and the very important significance those two words have regarding the subject. "Influence" is not "control" Influence exists in an infinite number of situations where the same influential factors do not exert control. Your substitution of one word, by way of the quote you supply, for the other shows your criticism to be based either on dumb ignorance at best or else to be deliberately mendacious.
I realize that mentioning "influence" complicates the discussion and rules out bumper sticker conclusions.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 06/25/2014 - 1:51pm
What PP is so eloquently trying to say, I think, is that he understands what anti-Semitism is better than the US Department of State or the European Forum on Anti-Semitism. This is no doubt due to
minutesdecades of extensive research on the topic.by Verified Atheist on Wed, 06/25/2014 - 2:00pm
Thank you TM. I know you care about what is right and your back up to what should be a truism is appreciated and dispositive. But please take the advice you have given me. You're too valuable here to be sucked into this. But you warm my heart and you are a true progressive. My hat is tipped.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 06/25/2014 - 5:19pm
And as for compassion for Palestinians, I think I've come to know you over the years -- I have no doubt that I have more compassion for the Palestinian People on a bad day than you -- in fact -- have in a lifetime. You just use words like "apartheid" and google articles to buttress your point. In fact, you rarely demonstrate any real knowledge of what's going on in the Middle East. Buzzword driveby argumentation. Wow, how convincing.
by Bruce Levine on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:17pm
When the Turks had the flotilla for Palestinians, you certainly had no compassion. Maybe you grew some since, who knows - stranger things have happened.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:21pm
Baloney,That is just another example of your ignorance. In your world, they were peaceful protesters a la Ghandi, practicing non-violent resistance. But they resisted and the Israelis responded, and ultimately they over-responded, but not because they wanted to kill anyone at the threshold. To say otherwise is just poppycock, and you know it.
But you just made shit up, and pretended that even though Israel had boarded myriad vessels as part of its blockade without incident, this time they came down and shot to kill. And the results were tragic, and it hurts deep. I just don't have to tell you that in order to get a pass from you to write about Jews. Once again PP, I do not work for you.
by Bruce Levine on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:27pm
That Gandhi fella - he resisted as well. They should have run him out of the country, no? I bet someone in his group had a piece of metal or string that would have threatened the British soldiers.
The results weren't tragic and they didn't hurt - the Israelis and sympathizers just said it was all the protesters fault, no blame, no overreaction, just doing their duty & cleared by official investigation.
And no, I didn't say they came down trying to kill - nice sleight of hand. But they did kill. ButI'm just as pissed when cops beat up harmless OWS protesters, etc. - nothing personal.
PS - nor do I work for you.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:35pm
And now PP knows what supporters of Israel thought about the flotilla. They all thought the same thing, all defended Israel without question. Never doubted that everything was done right.
You really need to get out more dude. My People are a helluva lot more diversified in their opinions of the Jewish State than you read about on Google. And I'm not talking about MJ Rosenberg -- I'm talking about lovers of the Jewish State. We come in all shapes and sizes. Imagine that.
by Bruce Levine on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:39pm
Supporters successfully lobbied Congress & the White House for support of Israel's actions. Newspapers weren't so supportive (except for WSJ, predictably). No doubt Jewish support varied. But I'm sure anyone running for Congress knew which way to turn, so it's all moot.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/22/2014 - 11:51pm
You see, without Google, you're just a polemicist with no clothes.
In short, you're spreading falsehoods about Jewish strangulation of Congress -- again.
In fact, when President Obama visited Israel last year, he had Netanyahu call Erdogan, had him apologize and agree to pay compensation to those who were killed.
So maybe you don't think that's enough, but don't make shit up so close to a third rail kind of concept.
by Bruce Levine on Mon, 06/23/2014 - 9:04am
The survey seems fine to me. Its purpose is designed "for measuring general acceptance of various negative Jewish stereotypes." "The Index Score represents the percentage of adults in this country who answered “probably true” to a majority of the anti-Semitic stereotypes tested." There are 11 statements, one has to answer probably true to 6, for example 37% of the respondents in France agreed with 6 or more.
I think all 11 statements are false though I can see how one might make an argument that AIPAC has inordinate power. Its somewhat of a stretch to then conclude that "Jews have too much control over the United States government" as if AIPAC and Jew are synonymous.
I don't see how anyone intelligent, reasonable, and not anti-semitic could possible agree with 6 statements. Therefore I think its a fair measure of anti-semitic tendencies.
While I do think Palestinians are treated unfairly by Israel if a friend of mine said "Israelis behave like Nazis toward the Palestinians" I'd confront him pretty quick. If he didn't back down and say it was hyperbole driven by sympathy for the oppressed Palestinians I'd consider him harboring at least some unconscious anti-semiticism. Anyone can engage in hyperbole now and then but if 48% of the people in a country were engaging in that type of hyperbole I'd think that country has a problem with anti-semiticism.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/23/2014 - 2:47am
At 1 point it seemed there were 2 well-known Canucks in TV, maybe more if we count Aykroyd, so a Canadian conspiracy theory started to evolve.
Nevertheless, there are plenty Jews high up in media and government (here's a repeat of one media list - a bit old; here's JPost's list of top 50 influential Jews, which is certainly far from complete. In any case, it seems funny to me to pretend that Murdoch was all anyone referred to, even though I'd guess the man/woman in the street hasn't much fact-checked the rolls of Jewish upper access.
The Guardian or Telegraph noted the "Israelis acting like Nazis towards Palestinians", but I don't know if that's how the majority of respondents phrased it, or if it was 1 example of several ways (i.e. some possibly more proportionate to the actual situation, less inflammatory hyperbole).
What's missed in much of this is say the view from the Mideast's eyes, where if Israel snaps its fingers, the Americans certainly pay attention if not come running. All statements are carefully vetted to not hurt Israeli feelings or raise its ire. Threats against Iran are standard. Much of our foreign policy ignores non-Mideast countries, including important ones like China and Russia until something like Crimea happens. So you might say Israel controls the world that matters, not necessarily all of the world. Yes, still hyperbole, but certainly influential.
out of time, gotta work
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/23/2014 - 3:05am
Thank you for reminding me why I cannot post about Jewish issues at Dagblog.
I wrote about what is going on in France in the Jewish community. It is a concern for Jews all over. It is a concern for me too. Sue me. No context is required to discuss antisemitism in France. I think it is an abomination that 48 percent of French folks, who lived through the Nazi terror, compare Israel to that. They saw the Jewish babies stuffed on trains to Aushwiecz. Many were complicit, and only recently have they come to terms with what they did.
When surviving Jews returned to Paris, they were attacked, they were told to get out, and they were treated like non-French. And guess what; Israel didn't exist.
Have you read Herzl about Dreyfuss. Of course not; you only Google. That was before Israel existed too. Herzl was haunted by the throngs who shouted: JEWS OUT. Jews Out? This was 100 years after the French liberation.
Your context argument is bullshit. It's not a context argument. It is an argument that Jews do not have a right to point out antisemitism, period. One need not discuss discrimination against muslims to discuss antisemitism. It is a rule in your mind.
Imagine this. An African American writes a lot about issues in his or her community. What would you call someone who attacked that person for not writing about discrimination in other communities?
Jews still can't be Jews.
My last post on Jews for quite awhile. PP stifled me. Mazal Tov. Sorry, congratulations.
Bruce S. Levine
New York, New York
by Bruce Levine on Mon, 06/23/2014 - 9:16am
Yes, I read Herzl. Over.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/23/2014 - 10:19am
PP's purpose is to keep an argument going to wear you down. I wouldn't let him phase you. Must people know when he is full of it. I'd just keep posting what you feel. I do think that the Israeli press is a better source for information on the debate in Israel than our MSM.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:28am
Thanks for your concern RM, but it's hardly anything I'm losing sleep over. This is not the stuff that interests many people anyway, and fortunately I do have a life. :)
The Israeli press? Probably more free than you'll find anywhere in the world. You should see how many times Haaretz, to which I now subscribe, makes me cringe! :)
Cheers.
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 06/24/2014 - 7:24pm
Cool off, folks, or this thread gets shut down.
Thanks.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 06/25/2014 - 2:44pm
Everyone has a different standard of what is acceptable and unacceptable, there will always be disagreement. But like the Supreme Court, you and the others on the masthead have the final, in fact the only, decision. I think that's fine, someone has to moderate.
I try to understand where you're coming from as best I can but its not always easy. Perhaps you found my comment so egregious that PP's response was justified. I disagree but you have the final say. Or perhaps since you didn't edit it you didn't find it unacceptable. But by weighing in and editing tmc's comment and doing nothing with PP's the message you're sending is that "Apology? suck my rebel/EU dick - how's that? Retract? lick my hemorrhoids. (just kidding - my asshole's in good shape)" is considered acceptable dialog here on dagblog.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 06/26/2014 - 4:38pm
by barefooted on Thu, 06/26/2014 - 7:39pm
Hey OK, I kinda have the feeling, could be wrong, but I would guess that per the masthead, our buddy Peracles might have earned himself an unanticipated vacation from these here parts. You and Tmac seem to have put him over the edge. That's my gut. TM took one for the team.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 06/26/2014 - 9:07pm
You could be right. Personally I hate talking about moderation issues for two reasons. All my experiences with unmoderated sites, including TPM, has convinced me that there must be a moderator. And moderating is really hard because people will never agree where the line between acceptable and unacceptable is. Therefore I have always accepted moderator decisions even though I might disagree with them and I've never posted my opinions on any of the moderation discussion threads here. But this one left me so confused I had to mention it.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 06/26/2014 - 9:26pm
This one is odd on its face. But leaving PPs attack on you for all to see could be kind of like a teachable moment. I can't play well in this forum coz I'm a jerk. But you and TM slew the bully with facts. Gotta try that some time.
Usually not one to gloat but this time I am content so long as TM hangs around after this. That said, I'll be the first one to say give PP another shot if he can learn to play well with others.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 06/26/2014 - 9:33pm
Here's how it went down. I popped in and happened to see TMac's comment ending with an explicit ad hominem, which she knows is verboten. Usually, I delete the whole comment. In this case, I just removed the offending part.
I also chose not to publish a comment of Lulu's that happened to get caught in the spam filter, and I explained to him why I preferred to leave it there.
Then I skimmed the thread and saw plenty more vitriol, including the hemorrhoids thing, which struck me as moronic and juvenile rather than personally insulting. Lacking time or interest in parsing ambiguous offenses and tracing the fine details of who said what to whom, I went to the bottom of the thread and told everyone to cool off.
Now that I have been pressed to revisit this lovely little thread, yes, I would have to agree that suck my-dick-lick-my-hemorrhoids does cross the ToS line. I have duly edited the comment and issued a warning to PP. Yay for Bruce's team.
It's been a pleasure, folks. Have a good night.
by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 06/26/2014 - 11:18pm
I did not recieve that explanation, i assume it was by email. I have now double checked. I was assuming that the site problems you mentioned earlier were the culprit in it never showing up. Not asking to extend the bs but am curious as it seemed a pretty innocuous comment to me which included some information so if you get the time I would appreciate you sending that explanation again. Thanks.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 06/27/2014 - 12:09am
I'm not on vacation, but have been trying to bow out, gracefully or not. As they said in Brokeback, "I wish I knew how to quit you" - take that for what it's worth.
Thanks for your civility, Michael - know you have better things to do what with the blog move and your real life.
I'm rather tired of this "team" aspect to blogging - I thought discussions were useful if we gained a different perspective or learned new info (or once upon a time, even had humorous threads as entertainment).
But lately it seems even Googling new info is a pejorative for some. Playing devil's advocate to see new angles just makes me a devil. Thanks to Ramona for some attempt to understand these disparate ideas, and Lulu for persistence & some gems of info.
Now I'll let y'all have your blog back (& no, I'm not a real southerner - I just play one on
TVthe blogosphere).Namaste.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 06/27/2014 - 1:41am
Taking one for the team is an expression. Teams we have none. Here is another. I and others were trying to understand why you threw TM under the bus. Your response was condescending and disrespectful and misdirected. Even moderators fuck up. Way to twist this into something it wasn't. Yay Bruce's team? Poppycock.
by Bruce Levine on Fri, 06/27/2014 - 3:21am
I apologize for the condescension. It was late, and I was tired and annoyed. But please understand, when I have to adjudicate a dispute in which one adult tells another to lick his hemorrhoids and a third adult calls that one some sophomoric name, which leads a fourth adult to praise the third for taking one for the team, well, it's very difficult not to feel condescending.
by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 06/27/2014 - 9:47am
I was not asking for an apology but in any event I don't believe you meant to be alienating. I understand your position and I also understand why my news piece created a thread that is less pristine than debating whether Republicans are bad. That is the fault of one person and one person only.
Nobody takes more responsibility for the errors in his ways on here than I do. I am not afraid to admit when I'm wrong and the record speaks for itself. I am sorry I expressed pleasure with some colleagues on here the way I did. That apology is a genuine one without explanatory qualifications.
by Bruce Levine on Fri, 06/27/2014 - 11:17am
I'm not interested in who started it. There was plenty of vitriol to go around, and it seemed likely to escalate without intervention.
I appreciate your apology, and I welcome the news link itself. I urge you not to stop posting about topics that are important to you but to avoid taking the bait when someone tries to provoke you.
I've got 8 million things to do today, so this will be my last comment here. I hope that we can soon migrate to the new server on a more positive note, and I'm grateful for all the help and support that you and others have contributed to the upgrade project.
by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 06/27/2014 - 2:44pm
I hate these accusations that people throw around that there's some team here or as Resistance used to say a clique. I don't know and I don't care if there's some team. I don't see it and I'm not part of it.
I read a lot of news. Occasionally I feel like discussing or debating it with people who also read a lot of news. No one here is my friend. No one here is even an acquaintance. That's not meant to be insulting it just seems like common sense. I suuppose some people feel differently but I just can't understand how people who have never met can be friends. I've never met anyone here nor have I emailed anyone. So why in the world would I join some team when all I'm interested in is discussing some of the issues I read about.
Calling someone part of a team or clique seems like an insult to me. As if one is not speaking their truth but spinning, a partisan hack. I choose the issues I'm most passionate about. I speak the truth as clearly as I can see it and I try to make the best argument I can. I don't care if I'm the only one advancing the argument and I don't care if others advance similar arguments with me. If someone agrees with me its a coincidence. If I agree with them its a coincidence. I've always thought that that was what most other people were doing here as well. But if some here want to conflate coincidence into team and clique (shrug) what ever.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 06/27/2014 - 3:08am
There are no teams. I've agreed with you and have avoided you at times when you pissed me off. I used "taking one for the team" as expression. Sorry I did now.
by Bruce Levine on Fri, 06/27/2014 - 3:25am
People agree on some issues and disagree on others, that is the flow of blogs. There are no teams. When well crafted arguments are made to present a different angle on a subject, they are taken in stride. When a crap argument is made, it is rejected. It may seem to someone that there is a pile on carefully crafted by a team. In reality all that is happening is that many people are voicing independent comments rejecting a crap argument.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 06/27/2014 - 8:26am
It was just a snarky reference to Bruce's comment
by Michael Wolraich on Fri, 06/27/2014 - 9:47am
My comment wasn't directed at you. That's why I posted it separately. Bruce made a team comment that kinda annoyed me. Then you made another. Then PP jumped on it as well. This "team" thing seemed to be going around so much I got annoyed enough to address it.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 06/27/2014 - 3:24pm