Russia and the Menace of Unreality: How Vladimir Putin is revolutionizing information warfare

By artappraiser on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 10:18am |

By Peter Pomerantsev, The Atlantic.com, Sept.9, 2014

[....] “If previous authoritarian regimes were three parts violence and one part propaganda,” argues Igor Yakovenko, a professor of journalism at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations, “this one is virtually all propaganda and relatively little violence. Putin only needs to make a few arrests—and then amplify the message through his total control of television.” [....]

Now Russia is exporting its reality-reinventing model through the hundreds of millions of dollars that it spends on international broadcasters like the rolling, multilingual news channel RT (Russia Today) [....]

Organizations like the Ukraine-based StopFake.org have been working hard to expose disinformation in Russian and foreign media. But for every ‘fake’ they catch, Kremlin-allied news outlets produce a thousand more. These news organizations don’t care if they’re caught in a lie. They care only about clicks and being compelling.

Like its domestic equivalents, RT also focuses on conspiracy theories—from 9/11 truthers to the hidden Zionist hand in Syria’s civil war. Western critics often snigger at these claims, but the coverage has a receptive audience [....]

URL:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-putin-revolutionizing-information-warfare/379880/

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Peter Pomerantsev

Peter Pomerantsev is a TV producer based in London. He is the author of a forthcoming study on Russia's weaponization of information, culture, and money, and a forthcoming book, Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible, about working inside Vladimir Putin’s postmodern dictatorship.

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 10:20am

The Kremlin's Troll Army

Moscow is financing legions of pro-Russia Internet commenters. But how much do they matter?

By Daisy Sindelar TheAtlantic.com, Aug 12 2014,

[....] A June article by Max Seddon of BuzzFeed reported the Kremlin was spending millions of dollars to pay English-speaking Russians to promote President Vladimir Putin and his policies in U.S. media like Fox News broadcasting and The Huffington Post and Politico news sites. Trolls are reportedly expected to manage multiple fake accounts and post on news articles 50 times a day, often with sentiments as simplistic as "Putin makes Obama look stupid and weak!"

In order to promote its narrative, the Kremlin has adopted a two-fisted strategy, unleashing its troll armies even as it tightens Internet restrictions at home. On August 1, Russia enacted controversial new legislation aimed at muzzling social media, the last bastion of the country's embattled opposition and a free flow of information about the war in Ukraine.

Anton Nosik, a popular Russian blogger and programmer who is sometimes referred to as the "father of the Russian Internet," says the Kremlin is falling back on a time-honored strategy in its propaganda war on Ukraine [....]

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 10:26am

As if the US government didn't do the exact same thing during the run up to the invasion of Iraq with WMD's and so forth ??? They just used access to the government as the key to get US reporters onboard with hyping their war ambitions writing pro-US and anti-Saddam/Iraq/WND articles for the US public to read so as to form the opinion the government needed to wage war with public approval.

All governments are propogandist.

by Beetlejuice on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 7:55pm

Our government goes a lot further than rewarding access for good publicity and at least a few others besides Russia also pay people, often affiliated college students, to use various strategies to influence opinions with their online activities. One tactic is flooding comment sections with talking points. Another is to disrupt discussions with vile claims that nobody wants to be associated with. Google has many links on the subject, some of them probably paid troll postings themselves.
Greenwald has an article at The Intercept, "How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations" bolstered by evidence released by Snowden on the subject.
A thing I find interesting about the Atlantic article linked by Arta is that an author that goes to the effort of researching an issue like that and paints it as a bad thing, which of course it is, does not mention any other country doing the same thing. Especially relevant would be his own country's similar actions if his intent was good journalism not tinged by propaganda of his own.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/

by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 9:09pm

If you look at the link on the author of the article (in the second comment above,) you'll find that the article is really p.r. for his book on topic and that his experience before writing it was extensive

...When British producer Peter Pomerantsev plunges into the booming Russian TV industry, he gains access to every nook and corrupt cranny of the country. He is brought to smoky rooms for meetings with propaganda gurus running the nerve-center of the Russian media machine, and visits Siberian mafia-towns and the salons of the international super-rich in London and the US. As the Putin regime becomes more aggressive, Pomerantsev finds himself drawn further into the system.

Dazzling yet piercingly insightful, Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible is an unforgettable voyage into a country spinning from decadence into madness....

I for one love cross cultural interpretations, along the lines of "stranger in a strange land," the Frenchman Alexis de Tocqueville looking at America being a famous example. I much prefer that to people writing about their own country, I really do. I think humanity gains much more from people doing that then a gazillion blog commenters criticizing the politics of their own country. Maybe if they traveled more, either in reality or in their mind, got out of the box of their own culture and compared it with another, whether criticism or praise, maybe things would get better in general. It's kind of the principle of the U.N., and I am still a believer in that ideal. The last thing I'd like to see is if everyone "minded their own business," to me, that's xenophobic.

After you criticize another culture or country, seeing similarities in your own? That's one of the good things that comes out of immersing yourself in another culture. There are plenty of others, though.

Note that he's not an American, he's a Brit. Their TV and films are still quite different from U.S. TV, and their mass media culture is also still different enough from ours no matter how globalized we get, it seems. Your criticism seems to presume he is part of American culture. I would disagree.

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 9:32pm

I agree strongly with your belief that people should get out of their own culture and try to experience and understand that of others. The only foreign culture I have been immersed in is that of the Caribbean. I lived there and worked among the locals on several Islands for seven years. Other than that, I just looked at my pins in the map and counted that I have visited 20 other countries, the most recent being a month in Spain and Morocco this past May. Most trips have been as a traveler on an extremely short budget which put me a bit closer to the locals than is usual for a tourist. Last May was an exception since I was able to afford a bit more and went as a tourist with a companion. She would not consider traveling as I did in the past.
I did assume the author was an American. And, I do like foreign films including from the Brits and have done so since even before my hearing degraded to the point that I often need the sub-titles to understand even a rather mild accent.
Completely off point but your comment made me think of it, I recently saw a good film called "In Tranzit" Available on YouTube.
"In Transit (also known as In Tranzit) is a film based on the true story of German prisoners of war in a Russian work camp after World War II. The camp had previously been for women and was still run by women. The film was directed by Tom Roberts, and stars Thomas Kretschmann, John Malkovich, Daniel Brühl, Ingeborga Dapkunaite, and Vera Farmiga." Worth a look.

by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 10:15pm

Thanks for these very interesting links.

I cannot seem to help myself. Putin continues to fascinate. Part of me roots for him for his desire to revive and restore a dying Russia but most of me is grateful that he was too young or too disconnected to rise to power in Soviet Russia.

by EmmaZahn on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 6:07pm

Welcome. He fascinates me because Russian culture has always fascinated me, and he clearly has enough of a handle on his culture to manipulate it well.

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 9:14pm

Having enough of a handle on his culture to manipulate it does not bother me as much as whether or not he has enough of a handle on our culture to manipulate us.

See image below of Novorossiya's rebel flag. That's a Saint Andrew's Cross which is also Scotland's Saltire that is included in Britain's Union Jack. Coincidence? Seeing made me realize I did not know what Russia's current flag was but thought it was probably a variation on the old CCCP flag. I was wrong. It is white, blue and red bars.

Later I was reminded again of the power of imagery from a Kevin Drum post:

One of the most famous anecdotes from the Reagan years comes from Lesley Stahl, then a reporter for theCBS Evening News. After airing a long, critical piece during the 1984 campaign, she got a cheerful call from Dick Darman at the White House. "We really loved it," he said. "Five minutes of free media." Dan Schill tells the rest of the story:

Stahl asked, "Why are you so happy? Didn't you hear what I said?" Giving the punch line of the parable, Darman said to Stahl, "You guys in Televisionland haven't figured it out, have you? When the pictures are powerful and emotional, they override if not completely drown out the sound. I mean it, Lesley. Nobody heard you."

Stahl said she examined her piece again, this time with the sound off, and found that the Reagan official was right—her story had accepted the Reagan frame and was practically an unpaid political commercial—a brilliant montage of Reagan surrounded with flags, children, balloons, and cheering supporters.Asked if this experience changed the way she produces her stories, Stahl said, "Not really. I'm still trapped, because my pieces are written to the pictures we have."

by EmmaZahn on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 10:05pm

That's a great quote. And my opinion counts extra, cause I'm in the business of pictures, you know.

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 10:09pm

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

... Joseph Goebbels

Keep in mind ... the US lame-stream-media is just as guilty as the Russian media.

I'm reading Lippmann's book ... Public Opinion ... written back in the 1920's. He stated the public creates a personal shell of how they think the world runs and as news filters in, it gets pigeon holed in a spot in the shell that reinforces both beliefs and disbeliefs the person holds to be true. So the trick is for the media to create news that is acceptable for those whose attention they need to sway in a specific direction.

by Beetlejuice on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 7:48pm

Public Opinion is a great book. I especially like how Lippmann described social and news filters as they were before mass media since radio was still in its infancy. Same system but much slower than now.

Another good book is one mentioned in the linked article, Daniel Boorstin's The Image. It is still used as a textbook even though it was written half a century ago.

by EmmaZahn on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 9:07pm

Boorstin ????? You would have to mention him ... DAMN GOOD AUTHOR !!!!!!

I read his books on the untold real history of the US and was astounded how the simplest of things we assume as just the way things are done actually was inspired thinking, actions and works that were handed down from generation to generation.

For example, the way a house is constructed today originated around 1830's when nails were being mass produced and the first " store bought houses " that came with a wagon to carry it was introduced for the aspiring pioneer family. All you had to do was place the pieces together according to the plan then hammer the nails in. And if you decided to leave for greener pastures a few years later, just pull out the nails, load the boards into the wagon and move on to your next location. When I read that, I actually went to a housing construction project and talked with the tradesmen. They knew their trade was old, but they had no idea of its origins.

As for Lippmann, I'm slow reading it so as to absorb the material, but I'm seeing where news is used as propaganda to sway readers to believe things are happening in ways the mirrors their self imposed information cocoon. What's interesting is to " see " how governments uses propaganda to influence the public to support their position when the facts are obscure and questionable. The Malaysian flight over the Ukraine that was shot down is a perfect example ... no one knows anything, but guilt was immediately assigned and sanctions imposed. So what happens if it turns out the guilty party is actually innocent? How do you convince the public to believe otherwise once they were convinced beyond the shadow of doubt of who was guilty?

There's a slow trickle of facts emerging that is beginning to look as if someone is guilty of committing a false positive with what they called "facts ". So I'll be observing to see how Lippmann addresses what will happen with the public and the propagandist.

And it's 3;30 am and it looks as if I'm running my sentences together and mangling my paragraphs, but I think you'll get my drift.

by Beetlejuice on Thu, 09/11/2014 - 9:41pm

Yes, Boorstin is a good writer, an excellent historian and a great thinker. We would be far better off if his American histories were taught than Zinn's for the simple reason that they are real histories not social advocacy wrapped in historical narrative. The first Boorstin book I read was a gift from a guy I worked with who knew the family. Honestly think it was a re-gift because when I told him how much I enjoyed it, he looked surprised.p Interesting aside about Boorstin's father: he was Leo Frank's attorney.

Lippmann's Public Opinion is a slow read. It helps me to first think about its historical context, when and where and by whom, it was written. The writing style is definitely of an earlier era and that slows me down too. And all that is before trying to wrap my head around the actual subject matter. Definitely not a beach book.

by EmmaZahn on Fri, 09/12/2014 - 5:20am

He addresses this in the article, page 2 (and keep in mind, he's written a whole book on topic), basically throws it open for one to compare Putin and George Bush as similar in certain ways:

Just as the Kremlin’s international propaganda campaign intensifies, the West is having its own crisis of faith in the idea of ‘truth.’ It’s been a long time coming. Back in 1962, Daniel Boorstin, who would later serve as librarian of the U.S. Congress, wrote in The Image about how advances in advertising and television meant, “The question, ‘Is it real?’ is less important than, ‘Is it newsworthy?’ ... We are threatened by a new and a peculiarly American menace … the menace of unreality.” By the 2000s, this idea had moved from the realm of commerce to the realm of high politics, captured in the now-legendary quote from an unnamed George W. Bush aide in The New York Times: “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors … and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”

The pressure on reality from capitalism and Capitol Hill coincides with an anti-establishment drive in the U.S. that likewise claims that all truth is relative.....

Matter of fact, I suspect some commenting here didn't read the whole article because after the above quoted graphs, he goes on to use as an example: Glen Greenwald. I thought surely someone would catch that and start screaming about Saint Greenwald. In actuality, what he is addressing about Greenwald is just a classic point of Postmodern theory, that it's not possible to be objective, that that kind of truth isn't possible for humans, so why not use advocacy instead. (Not my favorite theory, as some who know me might imagine.)

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 9:41pm

Below is a picture of Novorossiya's flag from the link. Remind anyone of anything? Hint: add thirteen stars.

by EmmaZahn on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 9:37pm

Also the lettering across the top is spooky, a little bit of the shock and awe thing going on with it, mho. Also mho: through recent associations of the last century or so, like the Red Cross, the Nordic cross has become associated with peaceful messages or help, or stability, while a saltire cross like this has grown ever more negative associations over time, including a strong association from signage with "no" or "stop" or "not allowed", not to mention things like S&M toys.

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 10:21pm

Here is another flag that has been prominent in Ukraine since the demonstrations ending in a coup began. Anyone need any hints about the imagery?

The Wolfsangel symbol on a banner in Ukraine.

by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 10:48pm

A couple of years ago I took a cruise(only one I've been on) from Moscow to St.Petersburg.One night the staff had a political evening during which they gave their own views on Russia.Only one of them supported Putin.

Afterwards I stood and chatted with him for a long time. He was smart and knowledgeable .He had been appalled by Yeltsin:his personal behavior and the policies he implemented, or rather permitted. So for him Putin was a breath of fresh air someone who had returned Russia to its proper status as a country to be reckoned with.

How would he feel about Ukraine caper? I expect he'd be ill at ease but still pleased that Russia is not a pitiful remnant of something that was once powerful.

by Flavius on Wed, 09/10/2014 - 11:21pm

If that flag is from the current ruling government, then it's influenced by the neo-nazis they used to wrestle control from the elected government they overthrew. And they gave them some serious political clout and positions in the new government too.

And if you're not aware, the neo-nazi's in the Ukraine are descendant from those Ukrainians who fought with the Nazi's against the Russians back in WWII.

by Beetlejuice on Thu, 09/11/2014 - 9:46pm

Is a flag used by the far right wing Social-National Party. since their inception in the early 90's and their successor Svoboda. The second Wikipedia link gets the gist across pretty well. Let's do some cross-cultural comparison: red neck racist Tea Partier with some neo-nazi sympathies bringing a Confederate flag to a political rally. Such a thing is allowed in our country, even though it stirs up considerable emotion, why not theirs?

The Wikipedia entry explains they get about 10% of the vote there. Again, not so different here.

What I think is the more interesting question raised by this: there are these far-right-wing parties gaining traction allover Europe the last decade or so (and in Russia, for that matter.) Including in countries where they have laws against hate speech and hate images and the like.,and where those parties' behavior gets harassed sometimes by the powers-that-be. And those laws don't seem to tamp down the popularity of those parties.

I think this has something to say about freedom of hate speech and other similar political correctness type regulation: that it might be better to let people like this express as clearly as possible in public what they really think, rather than drive their communications underground and in private where they can't be challenged or ridiculed. Even if they are growing and gaining traction, how can you know that is happening if they are not loud and proud publicly about it?

By the way next to it is the national Ukrainian flag which which most people would find incredibly calm and beautiful flapping in the breeze, even happy, maybe--sky blue and yellow bars (sun, sky, water) and the farthest from threatening or even nationalistic than a national flag could be.

by artappraiser on Fri, 09/12/2014 - 2:47am

Yes, I am aware of the flag's affiliation and I think symbolism as speech should be allowed, but in some cases the meaning of that speech is very significant and should not be ignored.

Let's do some cross-cultural comparison: red neck racist Tea Partier with some neo-nazi sympathies bringing a Confederate flag to a political rally. Such a thing is allowed in our country, even though it stirs up considerable emotion, why not theirs?

Here is a difference in the flags as I see it. Seeing someone in America displaying a Confederate flag doesn't tell us much about that person by itself. You cannot conclude that he/she is a red neck racist. You cannot immediately identify their political affiliation. You would be wrong to assume they had Nazi sympathies. Lots of teenagers who are no more racist than you or I put that flag on their pickups rear window because it was just a way to decorate their ride, not as a affirmation of a strong ideology of racist hatred.
The flag of Svoboda does identify a party which has all those characteristics among its followers, characteristics which they promote, defend, and use for recruitment of like-minded followers. It shows support of characteristics which have been on bloody display for a while now. It is symbolic of the swastika that it evolved from. It is the flag of an important and powerful force within one side of a civil war. And by the way, that side is the one our government is supporting.
I would not want to see that flag banned either. I too would always want to know who those guys were when I saw them coming.

by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 09/12/2014 - 12:01pm

Ukraine’s ‘Romantic’ Nazi Storm TroopersThe U.S. mainstream media’s deeply biased coverage of the Ukraine crisis – endlessly portraying the U.S.-backed coup regime in Kiev as “the good guys” – reached a new level of absurdity over the weekend as the Washington Post excused the appearance of Swastikas and other Nazi symbols among a Ukrainian government militia as “romantic.”

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/09/15/ukraines-romantic-nazi-storm-troopers/

by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 09/15/2014 - 5:04pm

deleted duplicate.

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/15/2014 - 5:54pm

The WaPo article presumes a more intellectual usage of the word "romantic" than the way that word is used in pop culture. Basic fascist ideology was most definitely romantic, growing out of the 19th century romantic movement. The symbolism is all romantic. Hence the strong association of Nazism with the composer Wagner's work (the epitome of "romantic.") Or the very romantic films of Leni Riefenstahl. Another strong example comes to mind is the infatuation of Miss Jean Brodie with Mussolini's movement in "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie," she was dreaming of Romance with a capital R, the rise and fall of great civilizations ruled over by supposedly great men and their superhero citizens, from Roman emporers on.

There's nothing wrong if you're speaking to an educated audience in labelling Nazi ideology "romantic." It's correct, it was.

And "Romanticizing" things is neither all good nor all bad, but can almost always be dangerous in the hands of skilled ideologues with intent to manipulate to gain power. Were the Crusaders in reality the glorious chivalrous medieval knights of your boyhood picture books? Should we take away the idea of glorious chivalrous knights from the dreams of boys because of that? That's the problem of Romance.

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/15/2014 - 6:03pm

I follow what you say about the use of the word ‘romantic’. I am now convinced that there is a significant percentage of the current Ukraine’s fighting forces and political leadership that have ‘romantic’ visions of restoring a new version of Nazi-ism to what they believe is a country that only those like them will be, should be, allowed to be a part of.
There is much more to the article which is either right or wrong than the disparaging of the term as used in an objectively correct, but in IMO a subjectively wrong, way.

by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 09/16/2014 - 10:52am

Listen to these terms: "apologists for Ukraine’s coup regime know no limits" - uh, if you're trying to imply parity between WWII Nazis and the "coup regime" (actually Yanukavych abdicated), then show how the "regime" (government) has done blitzkrieg, Kristallnacht, Katyn forest massacre, human medical experiments, teeth extraction and gas ovens - that's "knowing no limits". They haven't even completely devastated a town, a staple of say the war in Chechnya as well as WWII's Nazi & Soviet actions in say Warsaw.

"Azov battalion which has become best known for waging brutal warfare under Nazi and neo-Nazi insignia" - oh my, this must mean skinning people alive and torture and .... oh wait, 'sabotage, targeted assassinations and other insurgent tactics" - wow, targeted assassinations rather than wholesale slaughter? these are the new über-friendly Nazis, aren't they. "insurgent tactics" - well, I grew up with visuals of bamboo trip spikes with poisoned tips as well as hand-grenades in baby diapers - these new kids on the block are using .... symbols?

"the group’s far right views had attracted about two dozen foreign fighters from around Europe" - wow, 2 dozen mercenaries. That's almost worth writing about - feel the surge.

"The putsch that ousted elected President Viktor Yanukovych was spearheaded by neo-Nazi militias trained in western Ukraine, organized in 100-man brigades and dispatched to Kiev where they became the muscle behind the increasingly violent Maidan protests" - ah yes, those " these well-organized militants, consisting of paramilitary brigades of 100 fighters each, launched the fateful attack against the police on Feb. 20, the battle where Marchuk was wounded and where the death toll suddenly spiked into scores of protesters and about a dozen police."

Fathom that - the well-organized thugs kill a total of 12 police while "scores" of protestors (i.e. the side they're protecting) are killed - sounds like a pretty poorly organized pathetic version of "Nazi" to me.

“Officials in Kiev say the militias and the army coordinate their actions, but the militias, which count about 7,000 fighters, are angry and, at times, uncontrollable. One known as Azov, which took over the village of Marinka, flies a neo-Nazi symbol resembling a Swastika as its flag.” -

ha ha ha - 7000 uncontrollable fighters that killed 12 police in a riot and then take over a village. Imagine filming this and see how it wouldn't be ludicrous. Let's build molehill into a mountain - perhaps publish Mein Kampf 2. And you objected when I talked about this over-the-top propaganda. I don't understand why you're buying all this in such absurd terms.

by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Tue, 09/16/2014 - 11:27am

Listen to these terms: "apologists for Ukraine’s coup regime know no limits" - uh, if you're trying to imply parity between WWII Nazis and the "coup regime" (actually Yanukavych abdicated), then show how the "regime" (government) has done blitzkrieg, Kristallnacht, Katyn forest massacre, human medical experiments, teeth extraction and gas ovens - that's "knowing no limits". They haven't even completely devastated a town, a staple of say the war in Chechnya as well as WWII's Nazi & Soviet actions in say Warsaw.

The comparison, or parity as you put it, is not to the totality of actions so far with what hideousness the Nazi Party under Hitler accomplished but to the thoughts, beliefs, ideals of the Svoboda acolytes as well as their brethren the Social-National Party Of Ukraine. [Does that name constitute a meaningful flip of syntax?] It is my opinion which has been expressed here several times that making excuses for anyone who believes as the Nazis did and acts the way the did, to whatever extent they are able, is not something to make any excuses for. Hitler and his followers were not a dominant force when they began their rise to power. Their first move was not to establish the gas chambers. And, to say that Yanukavych abdicated is to leave out some very important details. He was corrupt and probably a coward but he ran because of very legitimate fears for his life at the hands of the coup. It was a coup regardless the subsequent election which left out the part of the country which was Yanukavych' power base, Yanukavych had been elected and once again we have supported those that overthrew an elected leader.

Your second paragraph is more of the first, simplistically comparing the actions of a powerful Nazi Party to the actions so far, some of which are pretty repulsive, of neophytes who are never-the-less ideologs of that previous Nazi regime. Your comparison suggests that their ideology is not significant. I disagree.

... well, I grew up with visuals of bamboo trip spikes with poisoned tips as well as hand-grenades in baby diapers - these new kids on the block are using .... symbols?

Yeah, I got some visuals too but are you really saying that the symbols of a movement are meaningless?

"the group’s far right views had attracted about two dozen foreign fighters from around Europe" - wow, 2 dozen mercenaries. That's almost worth writing about - feel the surge.

The Svoboda Party pulled down more than ten percent of the votes in 2012. Are you suggesting that 2 dozen mercenaries are the totality of their Nazi inspired ideology?

“Officials in Kiev say the militias and the army coordinate their actions, but the militias, which count about 7,000 fighters, are angry and, at times, uncontrollable. One known as Azov, which took over the village of Marinka, flies a neo-Nazi symbol resembling a Swastika as its flag.” -

ha ha ha - 7000 uncontrollable fighters that killed 12 police in a riot and then take over a village. Imagine filming this and see how it wouldn't be ludicrous. Let's build molehill into a mountain - perhaps publish Mein Kampf 2. ...

You are moving your examples to anywhere along the time-line that fits your thesis. Not bueno.

And you objected when I talked about this over-the-top propaganda. I don't understand why you're buying all this in such absurd terms.

When listening to the published reports from any side it is necessary, if interested in the truth, to try to pick it from amidst the propaganda from all sides. Whether either side is over-the top or not, do you suggest that our country's MSM is not complicit in pushing propaganda intended to gain support for a particular side? I believe it is. Can you imagine how viciously the neo-Nazis of Ukraine would be branded by our government as .. da dum .., Nazis, and widely covered as such in our media if they were not on our leaderships' chosen side?

by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 09/16/2014 - 1:10pm

"are you really saying that the symbols of a movement are meaningless?" - uh, yeah, 90% so in this case. If you can show me something/anything that seems really inspired by Nazis, show your cards - all I see is fairly limited violence compared to Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Gaza, etc.

"Are you suggesting that 2 dozen mercenaries..." - please, your article mentioned how they'd recruited 2 dozen foreigners - pathetic - that's all the reference is.

"You are moving your examples to anywhere along the time-line that fits your thesis." - your article talked about how these Nazi thugs were resonsible for the "coup" or "putsch" as you like to call it - I was referring to that. What thesis? My thesis is that all this exaggerating the Naziness of the Ukrainian government is bullshit - pick a point and I'll still show it's bullshit - runs the gamut.

by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Tue, 09/16/2014 - 1:44pm

oops, over at RFERL it says Kiev struck a deal with East Ukraine granting greater autonomy for a test period of 3 years including elections & restoration of language rights plus help rebuilding, while signing the accession agreement with the EU though with a 1-year waiting period to take effect.

Awfully reasonable for a supposed fanatic Nazi government intent on annihilation of its minority opponents.

hy·per·bo·le

by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Tue, 09/16/2014 - 4:15pm

I will probably return to this later when I have more time. It would be more fun than chores but right now the concrete mixer beckons

by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 09/16/2014 - 5:51pm

It would have been better if Yanukovych had been overthrown by an election, but he was the one who slaughtered protestors, which brought about his downfall. It can at least be said that he was overthrown by a popular uprising.

by Aaron Carine on Tue, 09/16/2014 - 5:09pm

That is exactly like saying that a foreign supported coup of our government carried out by forces with an attitude predominant in the beltway area was legitimate even if a strong majority in every state west of the Mississippi was against it. That is spreading the idea of democracy pretty damned thin.

Saying that Yanukovych was the one who slaughtered protesters and leaving it there as if that covered it all and there were no instigations or killing done by the other side demonstrates one of the problems highlighted in my original link and that is the grossly one-sided news put out by the MSM.

by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 09/16/2014 - 5:59pm

The other side killed AFTER Yanukovych started slaughtering them. Did "a strong majority" of Ukrainians oppose Yanukovych's ouster?

An election would have been better, but you can't slaughter your citizens and think nothing will come of it.

by Aaron Carine on Tue, 09/16/2014 - 7:22pm

One myth on the left is we plopped down $5 billion for a coup. That money was since 1991 even helping Yanukovich's government and included lots of normal post-communism aid for infrastructure and building democratic and economic institutions and upgrade military capability like we did all over east Europe. Included was several hundred million to decommission Chernobyl. We did help fund the democratic protests in the Orange revolution similar to Georgia and Serbia,but note that those were peaceful and fit the will of the majority - note that entrenched communists didn't just go away after the wall as my current home can attest -still high votes for the communists and heavy behind-the scenes ownership and control and corruption by the old guard who fix everything and take billions out of the system. The amount spent on Ukraine in the last 5 years was roughly $400 million, and there's been nothing to show there was a military component to removing Yanukovych - the majority wanted to move closer to the EU and Yanukovych killed an agreement 5 years in the making and the people reacted. There was no putsch - Yanukovych slipped out in the middle of the night leaving a ton of evidence of his corruption. (His jailing of his main opponent over the last years on corruption charges is this highly ironic). In any case there is no military government or dictatorship, elections were held in the west and in December will be held in the east and Ukraine is back to mostly normal with a small bit of fighting in a tiny area in the east that will hopefully settle down now. Overall a good score for American involvement - we supported the right principles on the right way without military coup or attempt like in Libya,Syria, Haiti, etc. I'm pleased, but you seem not.

by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Wed, 09/17/2014 - 1:01am

This reply will jump around a bit. Excuse the formatting mistakes, I'm having computer problems. Here are some more exaggeration of the Naziness of the Ukrainian government. 　

FAIR Fairness and accuracy in reporting

Some commentators on the Ukraine crisis seem so convinced that it must be a struggle between good guys and bad guys that they're willing to ignore evidence that there's anything problematic about their chosen side.

http://www.fair.org/blog/2014/03/07/denying-the-far-right-role-in-the-uk...

Yes, There Are Bad Guys in the Ukrainian Government

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/18/yes_there_are_bad_guys_...

The Dark Side of the Ukraine Revolt

The April 6 rally in Cherkasy, a city 100 miles southeast of Kiev, turned violent after six men took off their jackets to reveal T-shirts emblazoned with the words “Beat the Kikes” and “Svoboda,” the name of the Ukrainian ultranationalist movement and the Ukrainian word for “freedom."
– Jewish Telegraphic Agency, April 12, 2013

http://www.thenation.com/blog/178716/dark-side-ukraine-revolt#　

Can Ukraine Control Its Far Right Ultranationalists?　

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/01/can-ukraine-control-its...

　But our leaders can be expected to set the record straight. Consider these remarks alongside some of what Secretary of State John Kerry has been saying recently. On Meet the Press (3/2/14), he explained, "You just don't invade another country on phony pretext in order to assert your interests."

In Kiev, he said, "It is not appropriate to invade a country and at the end of a barrel of a gun dictate what you are trying to achieve."

To call these comments at odds with reality would be far too kind. As Robert Parry noted (ConsortiumNews, /4/14):

Since World War II–and extending well into the 21st century–the United States has invaded or otherwise intervened in so many countries that it would be challenging to compile a complete list. Just last decade, there were full-scale US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, plus American bombing operations from Pakistan to Yemen to Libya.

Can Ukraine Control Its Far Right Ultranationalists?　

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/01/can-ukraine-control-its-far-right-ultranationalists.html　

But our leaders can be expected to set the record straight.

Consider these remarks alongside some of what Secretary of State John Kerry has been saying recently. On Meet the Press (3/2/14), he explained, "You just don't invade another country on phony pretext in order to assert your interests."

And then yesterday (/4/14) in Kiev, he said, "It is not appropriate to invade a country and at the end of a barrel of a gun dictate what you are trying to achieve."

To call these comments at odds with reality would be far too kind. As Robert Parry noted (ConsortiumNews, /4/14):

Since World War II–and extending well into the 21st century–the United States has invaded or otherwise intervened in so many countries that it would be challenging to compile a complete list. Just last decade, there were full-scale US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, plus American bombing operations from Pakistan to Yemen to Libya.

Reading about symbols I go to Wikipeis as my google stop this time.

Symbols are the basis of all human understanding and serve as vehicles of conception for all human knowledge.[7] Symbols facilitate understanding of the world in which we live, thus serving as the grounds upon which we make judgments.[8] In this way, people use symbols not only to make sense of the world around them, but also to identify and cooperate in society through constitutive rhetoric.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol

In none of the quotes or examples or explanations do I see any hint that symbols are ever meaningless. A slight exception is that Tillich says that symbols are either alive or dead, and that if dead they become meaningless to current times. I don’t see any way that the stylized wolfsangel made to look much like a swastika which was apparently a stylized wolfsangel itself and which still has great and powerful symbolism can be considered 'dead’. I do believe that its symbolic meaning is abundantly clear and clearly relevant.

If you can show me something/anything that seems really inspired by Nazis, show your cards -

all I see is fairly limited violence compared to Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Gaza, etc.

The violence has only been limited by what the two sides have been capable of inflicting. Each looks to other powers to aid them in inflicting more. Each would crush the other side if able. It is not the volume or scope of dirty deeds that identifies the ones I and others are, correctly I believe, calling Nazi or neo-Nazi but rather the ideology they profess and use as justification for their actions. There is no reason to believe Hitler was the only or the most maniacal person ever just because he was so successful, for a while, in applying his maniacal ideology. The ideas at the root of Nazi ideology are not forever gone from any and all of human psyche. It is also fairly well known that Hitler had many in Americans in powerful positions willing, even anxious, to work with him in his early days of ascendance.

"You are moving your examples to anywhere along the time-line that fits your thesis." - your article talked about how these Nazi thugs were resonsible for the "coup" or "putsch" as you like to call it - I was referring to that. What thesis? My thesis is that all this exaggerating the Naziness of the Ukrainian government is bullshit - pick a point and I'll still show it's bullshit - runs the gamut.

　

Yes, I do believe it was the thugs, many of whom I am calling Nazi, who were the ones who were responsible for the demonstrations becoming a successful coup. [I don’t recall ever using the word ‘putsch’] They are responsible because they are the ones who provided the muscle and ignited the torch, both metaphorically and actually, that turned strong demonstrations against the government into a successful coup. They are the ones who turned the crowd into a pack. It is usually possible to hold off a pack of lap dogs but add one pit bull which will jump aggressively with blind inbred blood-lust for the victim’s throat and the lap dogs will all follow and tear something to pieces. It was the pit bulls of the Ukraine uprising who were given several important leadership positions in the coup government that resulted including over the military.

Regarding your last comment, it is quite likely that the Kiev government offered a deal because they had started getting their ass kicked and are trying to cut their losses and regroup.

by LULU (not verified) on Wed, 09/17/2014 - 10:39am

1) Funny, I see links that complain about these anti-Semitic (neo) Nazis in Kiev, and then the comments go on to complain about Jews like Nuland who are ruining Ukraine - is there a socially acceptable PC anti-semitism I'm missing?

2) I made it clear there are tons of old guard who are retro-knuckle draggers and certainly there are enough in Kiev - not all are separatists. So what? the movement seems mostly democratic, and there's little to show for any of these fairly small neo-whatever gangs committing any atrocities. Ever been at a Flipper concert? Lots of skinheads. Didn't bring down the US, not even San Francisco.

3) Reality check - there are a lot of primitive people in Europe - probably the situation gets worse as you go further east and the conditions are worse - except of course the Balkans where they set examples of bad behavior. So having been in Sarajevo and Mostar, I'm a bit unimpressed at what the vewwy vewwy awful neo-Nazis are doing in Ukraine - it's hard to see that anyone's going to be taken to the Hague at this point, whereas Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia all had their all-star teams of violators of human rights. Yeah, I was in Cambodia too. I guess I'm drawn to blood zones, and somehow eastern Ukraine just seems like a wannabee fake roadside attraction.

4) 6 unarmed guys at a rally wearing t-shirts in a little village far from Kiev or anywhere? Are you shitting me? We're discussing worries about some huge dangerous Nazi movement and you're going to smother me with little trivia from the Roving Eye Cub Reporter? Look at #3 - you've got people who live without electricity in commandeered boxcars. It ain't Manhattan, and even there you can get the shit beaten out of you if you mouth off to the wrong person. Really, case closed - when you're digging this hard, there ain't no paydirt.

Anyway, the government seems to be calming things down, compromising, getting back to business. Ukraine's going to be okay, despite the fearsome cheerleading and hoping for some irreversible event by the FUD crowd. As for Russia, it'll muddle along in its usual xenophobia - too bad for the sane people I know there.

by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Wed, 09/17/2014 - 4:48pm

Okay, a humor break - la la la la la la la...

by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 09/17/2014 - 5:41pm

Thank you for sharing that. I'd argue that if you were trying to understand the situation and could only read one article, that's the one. (Plus mho, the Vatniki meme is nearly a work of genius, the image conjured is so strong. Better than a lot of characters in Theatre of the Absurd but reminiscent of them.)

by artappraiser on Thu, 09/18/2014 - 2:08am

I hope the best for Ukraine and Russia too and its easy. Doesn't cost a thing and doesn't really hurt too bad if they continue to suffer. What I bother to bitch about is when I think we, America I mean, shares responsibility for things being worse than they need be.

Believe it or not I already knew that there are knuckle draggers most everywhere but if they are of insignificant numbers in the Uktairne civil ar then question becomes: How many Nazi/fascists forcefully taking and holding significant positions in a government and with big gangs of knuckle draggers behind them, even if a small percentage of the population, does it take before they become a significant indicator of the type of government they will become? And does that even matter?

But never mind. We've both said our bit on this subject for now, anyway. You believe things are on a good path there and that everything will turn out OK and I hope you are right. And, I never expect anything else here than that you will speak your mind and I am glad that you do.

by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 09/17/2014 - 11:13pm

But Yanukovych was a huge knuckle dragger, and the folks at say FDL act like it was some big crime he abdicated, that his election was "democracy" rather than the assured result of ingrained political machine that's been there since the Soviet breakup and created all the wealthy oligarchs who run it all today (including Tymoshenko, Popowhatever...). My main hope is that EU membership will lower the level of brazen corruption (not naïve to think it will eliminate it) & allow for real judicial procedures to provide some transparency and pushback against the machine. [compared to the Russian tradition, where Putin just threw another oligarch opponent in jail & will quickly seize his billions in assets]

Some links in closing on overt, contemptuous Yanukovych corruption & the prospects going forward.

The Economist (post-mortem on Yanukovych's regime)

The Guardian (Yanukovych brags about corruption to Georgian leader)

Buzzfeed (pictures from Yanukovych's palace - looks much grander inside)

The Telegraph (more pictures or maybe the same ones...)

N.B. - less concerned that a leader grew rich, and more the overall oppressive control of the political & economic situation damping progress.

by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 09/18/2014 - 12:39am

To me, it's just so clear you and your Consortium News type pals are just falling for Russian propaganda because you have a desire to mistrust U.S. policy. Which is fine in most circumstances, but here Russian propaganda has made use of that tendency. To blame everything on "the west" or the U.S. And you can't see it, because you're so used to the "U.S. black hat, so the other guy must be the white hat" routine; that we're foolishly "supporting" a neo-nazi movement that is going to turn the Ukraine into Nazi Germany in short order.

Try Canadian Liberal Party member Chrsytia Freeland's take on it. She's an ex-journalist of considerable experience and a crusader against the global plutocracy and she sees the western media having a anti-Ukraine slant and as falling for Russian propaganda themselves. She's no Ukraine rah-rah booster, as the title says, she is "skeptical" but on the western media coverage, she is just telling it like she sees it.

Believe it or not, this isn't really about the U.S. Like PP has implied, we really haven't done that much there, it's not a huge overwhelming manipulative involvement. Putin's the one playing that role, that is usually ascribed to the U.S. empire by a lot of the sites you like to cite, don't you see that? This time, he's the one playing the role that you blame the West or U.S. for time and again, he's interfering, including with troops. With the Ukraine he's a regular George Bush/Dick Cheney, pre-emptive doctrine and all. To me it's just so clear that in this situation you've let your skepticism about the U.S. and the west put blinders on you where you end up countering your own usual beliefs. It's not that we are good guys, it's that we don't happen to have been plotting anything major here, Putin is.

PP's right that there are no more knuckle draggers involved in Ukraine than in many other places in Europe, but I would like to add: Russia. At least a many. For chrissakes there's basically state-supported attacks on homosexuals there. And they haven't become Nazi Germany yet, either. Even with basically a president-for-life running the country for 15 years with strong support of the populace. Just like with Bush, I don't think he has to be turned into a demon, but there's really no evidence of an angel's halo saving us from Nazi regimes of the future.

by artappraiser on Thu, 09/18/2014 - 3:44am

To me, it's just so clear you and your Consortium News type pals are just falling for Russian propaganda because you have a desire to mistrust U.S. policy.

There are obviously a few floaters in your vision. Firstly, No I do not DESIRE to mistrust U.S. foreign policy. And, I have not supported the leader of any country that the U.S. was attacking since the days that I supported the Sandinistas. While I was in Nicaragua there was an attack in Jinotega by U.S. financed, trained, and supplied Contras. They killed a couple local government officials like they had been trained to do at the School of the Americas. This was a tactic designed to target key spots which would cause the government to fail. Do you doubt that happened then? Can you conceive of the possibility that we might fight dirty nowadays?
I really honestly wish, for one thing, that I could trust that we are being told the truth as to the policy and its reasons as they are presented to us, but I have been paying attention for a while now, including to what is said, the credibility of who has been and is now saying it, and the past results. Then I have paid attention to the rationalizations, excuses, blame shifting, obvious lies and deception, etc when it all turns to shit. I have noticed that revelations come out about actions years ago but some people think it is crazy to believe the same sorts of things could be happening today. They must have faith that our government is getting more honest and more responsive to the public all the time. I don't. So yes, regarding our foreign policy I do mistrust what I hear and I often mistrust the motives and I usually think it is misguided and stupidly carried out. But it is NOT because I wish things to be that way and I do not get any satisfaction when a predictable fiasco turns out to be just that. Maybe I would be less critical and more at ease if I put my faith completely in the NYT.

Which is fine in most circumstances, but here Russian propaganda has made use of that tendency. To blame everything on "the west" or the U.S. And you can't see it, because you're so used to the "U.S. black hat, so the other guy must be the white hat" routine; that we're foolishly "supporting" a neo-nazi movement that is going to turn the Ukraine into Nazi Germany in short order.

Do you really think that I never considered that Russia was spouting some propaganda? Have I established myself as a total dumbass? And do you suppose that America is not putting out any propaganda intended to make us believe that it is totally Putin's fault? And, do you suppose that I cannot see a fault on one side without thinking the other side is pure? And no, I haven't suggested that we are supporting a neo-nazi movement as such but I have suggested that we have been supporting a movement which contains powerful neo-Nazis who have been significant in tipping the demonstrations into what became a coup and that started a civil war. . I am confident that I have never portrayed Putin as wearing a white hat because I have never believed that.
Many here worry that oligarchs are taking over our country's politics as they well may be, while I see our country also helping to overthrow one set of oligarchs in Ukraine who had Russia as a god-father and trying to replace them with another set of oligarchs. Should I believe that this is all based on a benevolent desire to give democracy and freedom to the Ukranian people or is it reasonable to suspect that one reason is to redirect the riches of Ukriane towards the west by some while some others would like a strategic base on Russia's border. How the new oligarchs will ultimately rule is yet to be seen but the fascism embraced by so many key elements of the recent coup, the one we supported and now are propping up diplomatically and monetarily, seems to me to be too obvious to ignore or deny. The alternative is to notice.
Ukraine may become Switzerland or it may become N.Korea But I doubt either. My bet is something like Chile during the cold war. [By the way, I recently read somewhere that the term 'neo-liberal was brought back as a descriptor of a mainly economic philosophy by the same people who instituted that philosophy in Chile. How did that work out? And, how did they come to be in position to do that? Never mind, I digress. Well, not really] Ukraine's geo-political situation, including its geography, leave it between a rock and a powerful hard-place. That is too bad for them but it will not get better as long as blood is flowing in the streets and our actions have made that outcome more likely and then more intense, IMO. Neither side is innocent, it takes two to bango, but I don't get a vote in Russia so I will expend my efforts here and do my bitching here about the faults I see in our actions. Others may tend their roses and stay comfortably numb if that is their wish.

In the article you link to, Freeland says that the Ukraine situation is a fight and that Putin must be stopped. Later she says:

Freeland: I think that the parameters of Western support are becoming pretty clear. I think, at least within the current parameters of the situation, it is hard to see actual Western personnel, Western troops being committed to this fight. But I think it is very possible to see continued and additional financial and other kinds of support for Ukraine and continued sanctions against Russia.

So Freeland calls it a fight where we must prevail over Putin but doesn't think right now, or didn't back then as it were, that we will need an invading force. While she doesn't predict American troops being committed to the fight she obviously sees that as a possibility and putting her various statements together she apparently sees it as a necessity if sanctions do not make Putin back down.
It looks to me that Putin intervened as little as he could in his determination to maintain strong influence over a buffer zone on his border and to prevent it from becoming a NATO member, a stated goal of the neocons and other interventionists and warmongers and many other idiots. A goal that if accomplished will seriously undermine Russia's national security as the Russians see it. We have used threats to our national security, some real, some fabricated, to justify military interventions all over the planet but Putin is totally demonized for opposing a threat moving to Russia's border.
Maybe you do believe that our efforts in the Ukraine have all been out of a benevolent desire to help the little people achieve freedom and democracy and Putin's only motives are to stomp on Ukraine just because and that before long he will be taking over Europe. Maybe so. But regardless the real motives involved, it is a shame on us that the initial five billion and the billions more from the IMF and the diplomatic pressure on the world stage and the encouragement of our diplomats on the scene haven't been invested in an honest attempt to help Ukraine become another un-aligned Norway. Ukraine is said to have great economic potential because of having huge crop lands, undeveloped gas fields, and a large industrial base, as well as what could be a nice geographical location to do business between the East and the West. Instead it is being used in a West versus East zero sum great-game power play.

Freeland took part in an assembly to discuss European tactics regarding Ukraine. Who knows what they wanted or how they wanted to get it but apparently they also had a first choice for a new leader. Our Assistant Secretary of State said fuck the EU, we'll decide who takes over the Ukraine.
If I have made any statements in this comment which are not backed up by a great deal of evidence I will be happy to stand corrected.
I will add that it is a lucky break for everyone that that American hero to so many in this country, John McCain, who had a very real chance of becoming our President, doesn't rule in Russia. Do you think he would have stopped as short as Putin has done? Would he have been either smart or honest in how he handled the whole damned thing?

by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 09/19/2014 - 2:04pm

Nobody here's a Pollyanna who thinks US motives are pure , or that there's no uncertainty about the victorious set of oligarchs. I'm betting on the improvements (not perfection) of being in the EU, and more germane and important is that the majority of Ukrainians see it that way. That a roughly 20% of he population could veto that (east Ukraine is not hugely Russian speaking - outside the bigger cities it's largely Ukrainian speaking and of course Ukrainian ethnic) is perverse. Putin of course wants Ukraine in its sphere - why should I care? Turkey may want the Ottoman Empire back - Greece and ex-Yugoslavia don't. Your $5 billion obsessed on was over 25 years and included post-Soviet support for roads air & rail improvements, pollution, internet, education,cleaning up Chernobyl, agricultural improvements, ethnic issues, police improvements, trade and commerce, free elections,rule of law, etc. Soros worked with the US gov all through East Europe. Someone took a Nuland soundbite and slandered it into $5 billion for a coup. Additionally, those complaining about US support don't say shit about actual repressions against Tatars and gays in Crimea since Russia annexed it, instead focused on symbols of a few Kiev supporters as if symbols trump facts on the ground. Another stupid article was about IMF loans that would "never be given to a country with a Civil War", ignoring Mexico with its Chiapas insurrection in 1998 and I'm sure dozens more examples. I don't ignore the warts such as Kiev corruption and the stupidity of lowering Russian speaking rights in March, but many people selectively ignore the brutality of Putin in Chechnya , his repression of free media and free elections, and his way of throwing opposition in jail and gobbling up their assets. Instead,a bevy of unrealized concerns trump a ton of documented historical facts. (Were Ukraine Muslim, I'd be more worried about the incompetence of our involvement - instead it's much more an EU matter so much more hopeful). And that's all for me - take your last round.

by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Sat, 09/20/2014 - 6:01am

Does it have to be my last? Well, OK.

by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 09/20/2014 - 3:05pm

Post as you like - I'm in huge work crunch, have said what I want and think Ukraine is handling it anyway.

by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Sat, 09/20/2014 - 6:14pm

I like the way you and Lulu have drawn this out as a debate.

I would have made this a reply to both of you but the software doesn't allow such refinement of expression.

by moat on Sat, 09/20/2014 - 6:53pm

1 other interesting piece on arrest of Yevtushenkov

by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 09/22/2014 - 8:05am

Lets stipulate: Putin is a bad guy. He is not cool. A country would hope to do better that to be dominated by him.

I have been arguing that The U.S. has been actively working to set the stage for the revolution in Ukraine, that that revolution has many neo-Nazisor or other brands of fascist among its most active and influential supporters, and that the U.S. has been working to influence the choice of new leaders in that country, and also putting out propaganda to gain support of the American people in that endeavor and that the MSN has been extremely compliant by spreading that message as well as giving very little coverage to any contradictory news. Countering my arguments you post an interview by an American propaganda organization which is about making Putin out to be a bad guy.
In calling Radio Free Europe a propaganda enterprise I do not intend to say that it uses flagrant lies and distortions in this instance or all the time, I do not know. A very good thing they have done, from my point of view, is to have been very important in establishing the English language as the international language and greatly helping others around the world to learn to speak it. Their method was the use of a standard English vocabulary restricted to, I believe, 2000 words and to speak slowly and clearly at all times as they pointed out only problems with and in other countries and at the same time only good things about America and its actions around the world.
If we are to continue batting links back and forth I suggest this one. It is fairly long so it is able to give many examples of the Nazi imagery you asked for a single example of a while back. Also many video quotes of fascist ideology, Hitler idealization, anti-Semitism, and various other kinds of hate speech from some of the leaders and many of their followers. It is over six months old so I am sure it is not comprehensive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-RyOaFwcEw
If anyone is imterested in more from Christia Freeland she represents the center on this weeks audio blog of Left Right and Center. Her 'center' opinion is strongly one-sided in favor of the government in Kiev where she shares ownership of an apartment with her sister. They are of Ukrainian ancestry and in that country which is deeply divided she comes down squarely on one side like you do so you may want to hear her, maybe even quote her. http://www.kcrw.com/news-culture/shows/left-right-center/scotland-isis-a...
Maybe the best thing I have heard recently about how our beliefs are shaped and what the shape of those beliefs has become for so many is the latest episode of On The Media. The first part is about fear and how it is and has been mongered and the second more interesting part is about nihilism, "Confronting the Unknown".

. http://www.onthemedia.org/2014/sep/

by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 09/22/2014 - 6:14pm

Response below

by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Tue, 09/23/2014 - 1:37am

For anyone who might be interested in reading of the career history of my Consortium pal whom you denigrate along with me with accusation of "... just falling for Russian propaganda because we have a desire to mistrust U.S. policy." This will give some basis to judge his reporting,

Parry was awarded the George Polk Award for National Reporting in 1984 for his work with the Associated Press on Iran-Contra, where he broke the story that the Central Intelligence Agency had provided an assassination manual to the Nicaraguan Contras (Psychological Operations in Guerrilla Warfare).[2][3] In mid-1985 he wrote the first article on Oliver North's involvement in the affair, and, together with Brian Barger, in late 1985 he broke the CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US scandal,[4] helping to spark Senator John Kerry's interest in investigating Iran-Contra.[5] The Associated Press had refused to publish the drug trafficking story, and only relented when its Spanish-language newswire service accidentally published a translation.[3] Barger and Parry continued to press their investigation of North even as most of the media declined to follow it up, eventually publishing a story in mid-1986, based on 24 sources, which led to a Congressional committee asking questions of North. After North denied the allegations, Barger was pushed out of Associated Press, and Parry was unable to publish any further follow-ups to the story until after Eugene Hasenfus' plane (Corporate Air Services HPF821) was shot down in Nicaragua in October 1986.[1] After finding out that his boss had been "conferring with [Oliver] North on a regular basis", Parry left AP in 1987 to join Newsweek.[3] At Newsweek an early story concerned United States National Security Council staff being ordered by the White House to cover up aspects of the Iran-Contra affair, which Newsweek, under great political and media pressure, asked Parry to retract, despite his source holding firm. Parry refused, and he eventually left in Newsweek in 1990.[6]

In August 1990 PBS' Frontline asked Parry to work on the October Surprise conspiracy theory,[1] leading to Parry making several documentaries for the program,[6][7][8] broadcast in 1991 and 1992. He continued to pursue it after a Congressional investigation had concluded the story was untrue, turning his Frontline research into a book published in 1993,[9] and in 1994 he unearthed "a treasure-trove of government documents" supporting the theory,[6] "showing that the [Congressional] task force suppressed incriminating CIA testimony and excluded evidence of big-money links between wealthy Republicans and Carter's Iranian intermediary, Cyrus Hashemi".[3] In 1996 Salon.com wrote about his work on the theory, saying that "his continuing quest to unearth the facts of the alleged October Surprise has made him persona non grata among those who worship at the altar of conventional wisdom."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_%28journalist%29

by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 09/20/2014 - 3:04pm

Same colors as the Russian flag, but if you examine most European flags, the colors are solid, horizontal bars and/or vertical bars with the British flag using both. This one is unique, but I have some doubt they would think they have something in common with the US Confederacy ... I suspect it was by chance ... colors representing their close ties to Russia and the diagonal cross bars to represent they're not conforming to established norms. Which makes sense ... when a posted speed limit is no longer necessary, the sign has a diagonal bar across it to tell you the speed restriction is no longer necessary. I suspect that's what the double diagonal bars intend to say.

by Beetlejuice on Thu, 09/11/2014 - 10:05pm

Of course it's not consciously referring to the Confederate flag. Mho, it's just a case of similar visuals for similar effect. It's like this: you have to put yourself in the mindset of a U.S. southern rebel circa 1861 and strip out all the other meanings we've all added to that flag over a century and a half. And just see "why choose this cross, in these colors, decorated this way, what does it say, what emotions might it stir?" And then compare whether the message intent is the same here. I see what Emma sees. Your mileage may vary, of course, everybody brings their own eyes and lives to all images, much less abstract symbolic ones.

I will say this about flags. To get the intent properly, you have to visualize them flapping in the breeze on a horse, a tank or a ship or high up on a grand state building.

And to be perfectly honest, after thinking about it more, I myself see a little bit of this kind of flag here, too:

by artappraiser on Fri, 09/12/2014 - 1:57am

Of course it's not consciously referring to the Confederate flag.

There might have been some conscious decision involved at some point. I have seen the exact Confederate flag in pictures of demonstrating crowds in Ukraine so there might be some connection in the mind of whoever designed the Ukraine flag. Some possible reasons for similarity of the American Confederate flag with the Ukraine Svoboda flag: It is a flag associated with rebellion. American movies are very popular all over the world so that American Civil War battle flag might have been known to the designer and easily accepted by the rebellious faction it represents. But, it could also be only a coincidental similarity as you say and the American Confederate flag might be seen in Ukraine just because it might have been available in shops or by quick mail order more easily and cheaper and was close enough that its message there was the same.
I just last night found that out that what we call the Confederate flag actually never was that but instead was a battle flag and its intent was to help commanders know the positions of their forces from a distance.

Edited for clarity.

by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 09/12/2014 - 1:35pm

Actually, the swaztika would be evolved from the wolfsangel, not the other way around. (If it even was, I am not sure all scholars would even agree on that.) The wolfsangel is a very old heraldic symbol and it could easily be argued from the history of the symbol alone that users are not referencing the swaztika but a much older history or movement:

The name means "wolf-hook" and is taken to be a stylized representation of a kind of baited iron hook hung from a tree historically used as a wolf trap.[1]

It became a symbol of liberty and independence after its adoption as an emblem of a peasant revolt in the 13th century against the oppression of the German princes.[2]

The symbol was exploited by the Nazis after the popularity of Hermann Löns's 1910 novel Der Wehrwolf in the 1930s, where the protagonist, a resistance fighter during the Thirty Years' War, adopts the symbol as his personal badge.

While the symbol itself bears a parallel to the Eihwaz rune, none of the modern symbols now called the Wolfsangel are historically part of any runic alphabet.

So in actuality, this is the same situation as your argument about kids using the Confederate flag. You can't just judge a user by the flag, the flag can give you a hint, but you have to figure out whether the facts back up your assumptions. I.E. Are they really racists? Are they really xenophobes? A flag suggests it, but maybe more nuance contradicts your assumptions. Etc.

All goes to show that if you aren't fully acquainted with a culture, be careful, you might not be reading it's memes correctly. Mho, first thing to figure out in this global day and age is: who is the intended audience of a sign or symbol or meme? I.E., a local subculture or the whole world, a battlefield enemy or the U.S.A. TV-viewing public, young recruits to the cause, etc.

by artappraiser on Fri, 09/12/2014 - 6:02pm

I enjoyed reading what you had to say before about looking at flags with an artists eye. Here I also am also glad to get some of the history of the symbol. I can see how if there had never been the Nazi party and how if the swastika, whether derived from the older wolfsangel or not, had never been a symbol of the Nazis that some form of the wolfsangel could still very have well be found in Ukraine today attached to some idea or group. But Hitler did happen and the National Socialists did exist. Their counterparts exist today in Ukraine and they are the ones who have stylized a version of that swolfsangel symbol to look very much like the swastika. I think it is deliberate because they are very much like the Nazis that they have direct historical links to.

by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 09/12/2014 - 8:42pm

Now WAAIIIIT, jus' a damn minute!....y'gotta problem with the Brethren of the Coast?

by jollyroger on Fri, 09/12/2014 - 11:53pm

Of course the similarity of the flags is probably chance. I very much doubt its choice was intended to represent common cause with the US Confederacy. That said, google "rebel flag" and see what results you get. I get the battle flag.

by EmmaZahn on Fri, 09/12/2014 - 5:35am

Yes, the world knows about the Rebel Flag and associates it with rebellion, just like Gone with the Wind is known around the world (sometimes translated as "North vs. South"), and country music, Jim Beam/Jack Daniels etc. are part of the trappings of that stereotype. Just like they know about Woodstock, the moon landing/NASA, rockabilly, and on and on. They know more about us than we know about them, which is not unusual. There was even a Swedish band called Rednex that had a major hit of "Cotton eyed Joe" that's still played in all the Euro discos 20 years later.

by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Sun, 09/14/2014 - 5:35pm

Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible

About that, today I bumped into an advertisement for this:

Comic Con Russia: Новости

Hah!

by EmmaZahn on Thu, 09/11/2014 - 5:23pm

"The U.S. has been actively working to set the stage for the revolution in Ukraine" - yes, liberals & anti-war protestors set the stage to overthrow Nixon in 1973, and it worked. Regrets? I've none. Was there some big military coup to oust Yanukovych? nope - that "actively working" has been through rather peaceful, democratic means - I'm all for.

" that revolution has many neo-Nazisor or other brands of fascist among its most active and influential supporters" - this strikes me as crass propaganda from Russia and separatists, and there's been little behavior from the new Kiev government that strikes me as "fascist" - unlike the behavior from Putin & separatists. "Deeds & good works, not words alone..." I think the Bible or someone says...

"Countering my arguments..." - no, countering your arguments I countered your arguments - this was just an interesting piece I saw yesterday.

"...you post an interview by an American propaganda organization which is about making Putin out to be a bad guy" - first, I know many in this "propaganda organization" including many in the Ukrainian service who seem truthful enough, and while I agree they certainly have an agenda (they are funded to report anti-communist and anti-totalitarian news), you'd have to clue me in where this piece is "propaganda" rather than fairly true & obvious analysis though admitted speculation to a degree. It's discussing the historical facts of Putin or regime throwing Chodorovsky in jail and stripping him of assets and the current oligarch, with an interesting point that this one wasn't dabbling in politics. I stepped on everyone's toes a while back noting that sleeping with murderous Communists is a very dangerous slippery slope that can cause furious recoil from those who don't want to be yet again under a regime/system that is well capable of murdering millions and putting a nation or region in servitude. Or lower levels of repression, since not everything's recreating the purges of the 20's.

"Their method was the use of a standard English vocabulary restricted to, I believe, 2000 words..." - most of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty's programs are in native language put together by people from those countries. The BBC cares about language instruction.

Re: your bloody 1 hour video (do I have time for this?) - 1st item: Estonian PM or whatever talks to Ashton - "ignored" but reported in CNN & Reuters - claims by 1 doctor in Kiev that snipers were from Kiev regime - apparently no one else gave this report much credence - even the Estonian who reported it. (Reuters here. Guardian here.). But it's good enough for conspiracists to run with for months. Just like those Kiev jets shooting down the Malaysian airliner.

What other claims - "the most powerful & influential part of the coalition..." -no, these folks are not the most influential, as you can note from Ukraine news & political developments the last 6 months. Amazing revelation - there are Ukrainian nationalists who want their land to be run by Ukrainians!!! (cue the Nazi comparisons). And a few hooligans beat someone up in the street - compare that to the beerhall putsch, Night of the Long Knives and other thuggish behavior from the real Nazis and this is like reading the Peanuts/kindergarten version. Oh noes! Nuland said "Fuck the EU"!!! Must faint, where are my smelling salts.

Really, Lulu - this isn't serious. It's about as serious as the Bill Clinton kill list promoted by Gennifer Flowers - look! People BIll Clinton knew died - he must have killed them!!! Anything can be a conspiracy.

Kiev did not even fight back when Russia annexed Crimea - is that how scary Nazis act? Since 1 single Odessa incident over 4 months ago, I haven't seen a serious incident outside the eastern warzone - is this how Nazis assert their power?

The Brownshirts were the military wing of HItler's organizing, formed as early as 1919 and 15,000 strong by 1923, 4.5 million by 1933 - present at every meeting, beating up the opposition, carrying out numerous murders. There's simply no comparison with whatever's going on in Ukraine with what we associate with early Nazi or worse, later Nazi efforts.

And there's no logical explaining how a fascist movement seeks closer relationship with the EU where judicial norms ban anything close to that brutal, fascist behavior & give specific legal routes to stop it. They can thrive with an independent Ukraine - they can't within the EU. So I'm puzzled what people think they're describing.

by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 09/23/2014 - 4:16am

I am surprised in the construction of your argument, in the way that you discount the fascist influence in the Ukraine coup government. The fact that fascism in Ukraine isn’t as powerful as it was in the thirties in Germany does not change the nature of fascism. Your method is like if I told an oncologist that an x-ray showing cancer isn’t significant, its just shows one small malignant spot on one lung that would need to get a lot bigger and spread all around before it really hurt anything so don’t start in with scare talk about my smoking. That attitude would not make the malignancy non-cancer.

I was wrong about Radio Free Europe using ‘Special English’ and encouraging learning that language in other countries. It is The Voice of America I was thinking of. They apparently still invest heavily in that program.

Regarding the link about Putin being a bad guy, Yes, I thought it was in reference to our previous back and forth.

“ ... and while I agree they certainly have an agenda [first, I know many in this "propaganda organization" including many in the Ukrainian service who seem truthful enough, and while I agree they certainly have an agenda (they are funded to report anti-communist and anti-totalitarian news) first, I know many in this "propaganda organization" including many in the Ukrainian service who seem truthful enough, and while I agree they certainly have an agenda (they are funded to report anti-communist and anti-totalitarian news), you'd have to clue me in where this piece is "propaganda" ...”. The agenda described in the parenthetical phrase defines it as a propaganda organization. I did describe my view of the propaganda as not being gross lies but simply one-sided news, just as you do.

“1st item: Estonian PM or whatever talks to Ashton - "ignored" but reported in CNN & Reuters - claims by 1 doctor in Kiev that snipers were from Kiev regime - apparently no one else gave this report much credence -even the Estonian who reported it” The Estonian diplomatic response did not deny or cast doubt on the credence of the reports, it merely said, diplomatically, that the intercepted and then leaked phone conversation was not an assessment by the representative of the oppositions involvement in the violence. So the Estonian is reporting that what he heard on the street is that people [who appear in videos which are not part of his hearsay evidence to have been shot in the back while facing the police lines] were shot in the back by the same snipers who were shooting police. As part of their propaganda Russia distorts that as proof and then supporters of the coup government use Russia’s exaggeration as proof that consideration of the possibility of right wing instigators of violence is evidence of adopting idiot conspiracy theories.

[of course if you're going to faint over State supporting a right-wing asshole, then it might be obvious to faint over Russian anti-democratic actions in Crimea against the Tatars, who kinda suffered atrocities from these bastards before - but selective outrage is the key - focus on a few anecdotes and rumors and expand them to the 4th Reich] I aint faintin’ and you are the only one that says calling some in Ukraine Nazis or fascists is tantamount to calling all Ukrainians the same and only you expand the factually correct name calling to making equivalences with the fully formed Third Reich.

by Anonymous LULU (not verified) on Tue, 09/23/2014 - 11:08am

You say it's significant, I say it's not. Aside from some street chatter re: shootings at Maidan (which was obviously very popular and not very violent), there's little trace of serious fascist influence, videos of guys with armbands marching aside. C'est tout.

by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:19pm

I am pleased to see this fine post, which garnered 15K views, appear unexpectedly in the "hits of the day" section. Posts come and go. But great bloggers and contributors, although in great supply here, on trees do not grow.

I'm just wondering where this author/blogger/fine art appraiser is and to let her know, when she cruises these pages, that her heavily and humorously nuanced comments, and she herself, are sorely missed.

by Oxy Mora on Thu, 07/16/2015 - 12:25pm

Seconded.

by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 07/16/2015 - 1:53pm

Fourthed.

by moat on Thu, 07/16/2015 - 6:20pm

In the News

Russia plays weak hand in Palestine
Russia plays weak hand in Palestine

submitted by PeraclesPlease 8 months ago

The intra-Palestinian meeting in Moscow has precedent

Russia's hosted such meetings in the past, most recently Feb 2019

Russia has long lamented the US' "monopolization" of the peace process & tried to carve out a niche for itself: mediating among the disunited Palestinians/2
— Hanna Notte (@HannaNotte) February 29, 2024

Read the article at https://twitter.com/HannaNotte/status/1763116222256701787

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Mother Jones is Reaching out to Alternative Party Voters
Mother Jones is Reaching out to Alternative Party Voters

submitted by HSG 8 months ago

Here's what I told them: https://halginsberg.com/vote-for-jill-stein-again/

Read the article at https://halginsberg.com/vote-for-jill-stein-again/

2 comments

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Controversial Brazil law curbing Indigenous rights comes...
Controversial Brazil law curbing Indigenous rights comes into force

submitted by artappraiser 10 months ago

Controversial Brazil law curbing Indigenous rights comes into force https://t.co/pCoDg05irX
— Gareth Harris (@garethharr) December 28, 2023

Read the article at https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/28/brazil-law-indigenous-land-rights-claim-time-marker?CMP=share_btn_tw

1 comment

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Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Port-au-Prince, Haiti (...
Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Port-au-Prince, Haiti (December 25, 2023)

submitted by artappraiser 10 months ago

Location: U.S. Embassy and residential compounds

Events: Heavy gunfire is occuring around the area of the U.S. Embassy and residential compounds adjacent to the Trutier area of Tabarre. All Embassy personnel have been instructed to remain indoors and shelter-in-place until further notice. All others should avoid the area.

Actions to take:

Avoid the area;

Avoid demonstrations and any large gatherings of people;

Do not attempt to drive through roadblocks; and

If you encounter a roadblock, turn around and get to a safe area.

Read the article at https://ht.usembassy.gov/security-alert-u-s-embassy-port-au-prince-haiti-december-25-2023/

3 comments

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Pakistan Is Creating the World’s Next Refugee Crisis
Pakistan Is Creating the World’s Next Refugee Crisis

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

By The Editorial Board @ Bloomberg.com, December 8, 2023

A mass expulsion of Afghan migrants could destabilize the region and fuel radicalization. The West should pressure Islamabad to change course.

Read the article at https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-12-08/pakistan-s-expulsion-of-afghan-refugees-risks-another-crisis

6 comments

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Internet shut down in Chad
Internet shut down in Chad

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

All eyes on #Chad right now
Chad has two internet trunks coming into the country: One from the Red Sea via Sudan; the other from Cameroon. Not possible for the totality of the country's internet network to be shut unless done centrally. A lot of rumors swirling; few facts. https://t.co/N6bDJZ2ixO

Read the article at https://x.com/_hudsonc/status/1732891968709992511?s=20

2 comments

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[Economy] where Joe's success falls short
[Economy] where Joe's success falls short

submitted by PeraclesPlease 11 months ago

Read the article at

3 comments

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[CRIME News] 3 loss-prevention employees in Macy’s across...
[CRIME News] 3 loss-prevention employees in Macy’s across the street from Philadelphia City Hall stabbed

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

BREAKING: Three loss prevention employees in Macy’s across the street from Philadelphia City Hall stabbed, one of them has died from stab wounds, @PhillyPolice sources tell me. Police converged on the store as the three workers were rushed to Jefferson Hospital. pic.twitter.com/4U1eKycL4W

Read the article at https://x.com/KeeleyFox29/status/1731713272942940365?s=20

38 comments

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Former U.S. Ambassador Arrested, Charged With Working As...
Former U.S. Ambassador Arrested, Charged With Working As Secret Agent For Cuba

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

Former US Ambassador Arrested, Charged With Working As Secret Agent For Cuba https://t.co/LDwo4ZJI1K
— HuffPost (@HuffPost) December 4, 2023

Read the article at https://www.huffpost.com/entry/manuel-rocha-ambassador-arrested-cuba_n_656d1e2ae4b028b0f3d07478

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[War in Israel, Chapter II] UNRWA under scrutiny
[War in Israel, Chapter II] UNRWA under scrutiny

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

[Chapter I news is HERE, Oct. 7 til today]

You don’t get it.
It’s not about an UNRWA teacher who held an Israeli kid hostage in his house.
It’s all about how for 75 years you have destroyed the future of generations of Palestinians, including my family.
My cousins in Arab countries are still not citizens - not even the… https://t.co/nv6anubGhc
— George Deek (@GeorgeDeek) December 2, 2023

Note 'Community Notes' attached to UNWRA's statement.

Read the article at https://x.com/GeorgeDeek/status/1731020551328579863?s=20

58 comments

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Maduro, Under Pressure, Holds Vote to Annex Territory From...
Maduro, Under Pressure, Holds Vote to Annex Territory From a Neighbor

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

Imperialism for me but not for thee?

It's wild that Venezuela is now holding a vote on whether 2/3 of Guyana actually belongs to them! Analysts suggest that Modoru may want military action to pump up his sinking popularity.

Could we have a war in South America?!?

"The people who live in Essequibo are largely… pic.twitter.com/QvMEjkkgwy

Read the article at https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/03/world/americas/maduro-vote-essequibo-guyana.html

6 comments

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[Where is the GOP headed?] Divisions leave Florida’s House...
[Where is the GOP headed?] Divisions leave Florida’s House Republicans powerless

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

The lack of a cohesive delegation has allowed attention-seeking lawmakers to act on their own.

McCarthy: “You have [Rep. Matt] Gaetz, who belongs in jail…”

Gaetz: “Tough words from a guy who sucker punches people in the back. The only assault I committed was against Kevin’s fragile ego.”https://t.co/LctPuz6Pcf

Read the article at https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/29/divisions-leave-floridas-house-republicans-powerless-00129200

10 comments

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‘She got so mad at me’: book on the ‘Squad’ details AOC-...
‘She got so mad at me’: book on the ‘Squad’ details AOC-Pelosi clashes

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

By Martinn Pengelly in Washington DC for TheGuardian.com, Nov. 30

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez tells Ryan Grim life in Congress ‘completely transformed’ after Democratic leader stepped down

Read the article at https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/nov/30/squad-book-aoc-nancy-pelosi?CMP=share_btn_tw

15 comments

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US health insurers Humana, Cigna in talks to merge -source
US health insurers Humana, Cigna in talks to merge -source

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

@ Reuters, Nov. 29

Read the article at https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/us-health-insurers-humana-cigna-talks-merge-wsj-2023-11-29/

3 comments

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Central Africa’s dinosaur regimes and the art of coup-...
Central Africa’s dinosaur regimes and the art of coup-proofing

submitted by artappraiser 11 months ago

"Both the AU and the intl community place more weight on whether elections are held than whether they are free and fair. Sanctions/expulsions occur when there is a coup but not necessarily when elections are rigged or if an “institutional coup” occurs." https://t.co/m9dNimJP0D
— Cameron Hudson (@_hudsonc) November 28, 2023

Read the article at https://africanarguments.org/2023/11/central-africas-dinosaur-regimes-and-the-art-of-coup-proofing/

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