MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Many Democrats, including powerbrokers Nancy Pelosi, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, and Adam Schiff, just handed Donald Trump a big victory and Americans a big loss on warrantless surveillance.
Comments
From your link
The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Democrats voted for reforming surveillance law. Electing more Democrats is more likely to lead to reform than electing more Republicans. Greenwald downplays the fact the most Democrats voted for reform by using the qualifier “while”.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 11:20am
Greenwald, and often Hal, mode of operation is to assume or fabricate the worst motives imaginable for anyone in the Democratic Party. Driftglass on GG: Glenn - "Anyone who disagrees with me is a drooling jackbooted Obot stooge and betrayer of all things Progressive"
Greenwald was defending Trump in 2016, from Putin's Sputnick magazine:
Now the Democrats are supposedly responsible for gleefully giving Trump awesome powers to aid his tyranny.
by NCD on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 2:20pm
I neither assumed nor fabricated any motives. The simple fact is that Democratic leaders sided with Trump and against you.
by HSG on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 2:20pm
Must say that it has always driven me nuts when people assign motives to someone posting stories in "In the News" section. Unless someone adds a comment, the only motive that should be assigned is "I found this interesting," if it's otherwise, they would have blogged it, or they should have. Of course, if someone posts the same kind of story over and over and over, one can assume they have a motive, I am not saying we should all pretend we don't know each other's history and opinions.
Important edit to add: Hal, you added commentary by not simply copying the headline that Greenwald used! So one can read intent into you posting it. At least that's how I look at it, that's the dif, so it makes you fair game.for presuming intent.
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 2:33pm
One can fairly attribute motives to me for posting this article. One obvious one is that I wanted to provide an example of a vote where powerful Democrats sided with Trump and in favor of more government intrusion into our private activities. NCD claimed, however, that I was "assum[ing] or fabricat[ing] the worst motives" to Pelosi, Wasserman Schultz, et al. That's a false claim. I did not assume or fabricate the motives of the Democrats who voted with Trump. Why they did such a terrible thing is largely irrelevant, what matters is that they did it.
by HSG on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 3:27pm
I no longer trust Greenwald's reporting and take everything he writes with a grain of salt. I followed his arguments with Sam Harris who I like. I've read a few of his books and watched several of his debates, lectures, and podcasts. I know his work, I may not always agree with his point of view but I know what he said and what his position is. So I could see when Greenwald deliberately distorted his views and pulled quotes out of context to attack him. Greenwald lied about Harris' views maliciously and often. I can't help but wonder whenever I read anything written by him if he's lying again. He's just not a journalist I can trust.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 2:45pm
I agree. There's all of that. And then there's that he still writes like the lawyer he is, not like a journalist. it's advocacy, always one side of the story, purposely leaving out anything that would balance.(Main reason why people hate lawyers.) And then taking that into account, there's also the hysterics inherent in each and every piece. He really has one theme: where's the outrage?
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 2:51pm
This isn't about Greenwald's opinion. It's about the fact that a number of Democrats voted to maintain Trump's ability to harvest your communications without a warrant.
by HSG on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 3:10pm
A majority of Republicans voted for the current law. A majority of Democrats voted for reforming the bill. Math is not your friend.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 3:35pm
What exactly did I write that math disproves?
by HSG on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 3:53pm
The mathematical solution to the problems would appear to be electing more Democrats because Democrats are more likely to be supportive of reform. You select a Democrat who agrees with you on surveillance or you vote for a Republican who agrees with you on surveillance. The Republican is probably not going to agree with you on a host of other issues. The Democratic candidate is more likely to be supportive of other important issues. Even the Democratic candidate who disagrees with you on surveillance is more likely to agree with you on other issues compared to the Republican.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 10:24pm
I agree with you on this. I have previously written that we have a moral and intellectual duty to vote for the most progressive viable candidate in every election. Isn't that entirely consistent with what you wrote? So again, what did I write that, as you claim, the math disproves?
by HSG on Sun, 01/14/2018 - 12:52pm
Not worth the time.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 01/14/2018 - 12:55pm
Totally not worth the time. Old Hal tried to trick you into saying that his vote for Bernie was the right thing to do. He completely ignored that you were comparing voting for a republican who might agree with you on one issue and vote against everything else that you care about, as opposed to voting for a DEMOCRAT (this eliminates Bernie) who might disagree with you on one issue but is overwhelmingly on your side about many other core issues. Thanks for not trying to kick that football. LOL!
Bottom line: we have a natural experiment that shows what happens when you are more of an anti-Democrat “Democrat” than an anti-republican “Democrat.” Hal has demonstrated that perfectly.
by CVille Dem on Sun, 01/14/2018 - 8:49pm
Presently, we are in a two-party system. Trump is incompetent. Trump is a racist. Trump’s connections to Russia are under investigation. Republicans cover for Trump’s racism. Republicans attempt block the Russian investigation. Republicans ignore Trump’s mental state. Republicans ignore lies coming from the White House. Think about Trump’s physical exam. Trump is described as being in excellent health, but the physician’s name is misspelled. They assume that we are stupid.
Democrats do not address issues involving race in a manner that I find fully acceptable. Republicans are actively telling people of color that they are not welcome. Haitian-American MIA Love realizes this. Rand Paul and others make excuses. The choice between Republicans and Democrats are pretty clear to me. We can force Democrats to knock on the doors of black voters. Republicans have to be taken to court to prevent voter suppression. The two parties are not the same. Hal is trapped in Bernie-Love. He is willing to ignore the threat Republicans pose. He praises Conservative Republicans but seems to dismiss the majority of Democrats who voted. Hal will not be a part of the 2018 Democratic coalition because few will pass his purity test.
Edit to add:
To clarify, you vote for the most Progressive candidate who can win. Hillary Clinton kicked Sanders’ butt.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 01/14/2018 - 9:11pm
No what happened in the Democratic primaries is that Democrat primary voters voted for the less progressive candidate who didn't win, right?
by HSG on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 8:35am
Here are the six sitting Senators who voted against Martin Luther King Jr Day
https://thedailybanter.com/2018/01/six-sitting-members-of-congress-mlk-day/
I answered your question above.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 11:18am
When voting in a primary, why is the label "Democrat" more important to you than the actual positions and record of the candidates?
by HSG on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 8:37am
So in other words, nothing I wrote is inconsistent with math.
by HSG on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 8:38am
I don't trust that Greenwald is correctly reporting the facts. As AA pointed out I'd have to read extensively to know what facts he's leaving out. I'd also have to read extensively to determine if he's lying. So if I really know the subject well I can add what's missing and subtract what's false and then, it's possible there is something interesting left over. But if I'm doing that much reading on the subject why would I bother to read the Greenwald article? I've gotten all the information elsewhere already. If I'm not doing all that outside reading I can't trust Greenwald to tell me the story accurately.
Imo Greenwald is like Hannity for the far left.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 3:44pm
From NBC, "with the help of some Democrats, the House of Representatives voted today — and the Senate will do so sometime in the next week — to extend a controversial NSA surveillance power that potentially affects millions of Americans’ privacy rights."
From the NYT:
by HSG on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 3:57pm
If that's all it's about, if all "It's about the fact that a number of Democrats voted to maintain Trump's ability to harvest your communications without a warrant" then why did Greenwald write such a long article? And why do you trust his analysis? Fine if you do, I'm just saying I don't and I've given a brief summery why.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 6:19pm
I didn't read his analysis. I have no idea why Greenwald wrote such a long article nor do I really care. I read the facts which are corroborated by corporate/mainstream media. I am outraged at the Democrats who claim to be fighting Trump but not only did not do so but maintained what I believe to be clearly unconstitutional powers over us. How do you feel about what those Democrats did?
by HSG on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 6:21pm
I'm not happy about the loss of privacy both government surveillance and private. As google got more and more intrusive I moved to duckduckgo. But you know, almost no one else did. The American people don't much care about privacy. Not just google, they'll allow any web site to put tracking cookies on their computer. So there's not much those who care can do about it except take some measures to protect themselves.
This amendment only deals with Americans who are picked up while communicating with non Americans over seas. It's a somewhat small breach of Americans privacy and somewhat necessary when tapping communications in countries with a significant number of terrorists. It's the least of my privacy concerns.
This program has been in existence for all eight years of the Obama presidency. It's unrealistic to think a program that had the support of democrats through two democratic administrations would be ended when Trump became president.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 9:49pm
Sooo very ironically, like magic because I am one of those Americans of which you speak who doesn't ever clear my cookies, used to care about privacy but feel now that it's too time consuming to keep,
this just popped up recommended by Firefox, for you, one of my online acquaintances:
a Jan. 8 guest op-ed @ the NYTimes by a cybersecurity geek:
Cybersecurity Today Is Treated Like Accounting Before Enron by Nathaniel Fick
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/13/2018 - 11:08pm
I had to laugh at your "cybersecurity geek" label, and my suspicions were rather confirmed - not quite the "geek" you presume. I bring it up because it's part of how we compartmentalize and dismiss security concerns.
Nathaniel Fick CEO
Nate Fick has been CEO of Endgame since 2012. He is also an Operating Partner at Bessemer Venture Partners. Before joining Endgame, Nate was CEO of the Center for a New American Security. He led Marine Corps infantry and reconnaissance units in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. His book about that experience, One Bullet Away, was a New York Times bestseller, a Washington Post "Best Book of the Year," and one of the Military Times' "Best Military Books of the Decade.”
Nate is a graduate of Dartmouth College, the Harvard Kennedy School, and the Harvard Business School. Nate serves as a Trustee of Dartmouth, and on the Military & Veterans Advisory Council of JPMorgan Chase & Co. He is a member of the Young Presidents’ Organization and a life member of the Council on Foreign Relations and Trout Unlimited.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 01/14/2018 - 3:53am
Geez, you are correct, far from geek, sounds like Mr. Renaissance Alpha Male, the few, the proud. ooh rah.
by artappraiser on Sun, 01/14/2018 - 5:10pm
Semper Fi.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 01/14/2018 - 5:45pm
I actually think Americans care a great deal about privacy. But what few inconvenient steps we can actually take ourselves offer, at best, minimal protection from the executive branch and multinational billion dollar corporations. That's why the Democratic leadership's failure to join with Republicans like Justin Amash on warrantless surveillance is so disheartening.
by HSG on Sun, 01/14/2018 - 12:56pm
I don't know how you come by the assumption that Americans care about privacy. I look at what's happened and draw my conclusions. On the private side it would have been very easy to stop much of the data gathering if people cared. If just 25% of google searches went to duckduckgo google would have changed. People could have picked a search engine that didn't track them but they didn't. When google entered the email market it was well publicized that they planned to data gather from a person's email content but people signed up for gmail anyway.
If people had moved to a search engine that didn't track and rejected gmail it would have sent a major message to tech companies and resulted in major changes in their behavior. And it would have been easy for consumers to do. Just those two simple actions that would have had negligible effects on a person's on line experience would have had a major impact on tech companies behavior and Americans couldn't care less.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 01/14/2018 - 1:46pm
The Hal paradox is he incessantly advocates for national single payer healthcare and federal taxes to target and decrease personal wealth disparity, but he doesn't trust the government with "protecting his privacy."
Excellent points btw.
Google, Facebook etc valuations are entirely tied to not only mining everything about you, but selling every last iota of that personal information as widely as possible, with a menu of built in algorithms to make the ads, or Russian disinformation, more cost effective for the purchaser.
by NCD on Sun, 01/14/2018 - 2:41pm
advocates for national single payer healthcare....but he doesn't trust the government with "protecting his privacy"
This especially is a marked paradox, thank you for pointing it out.
Whether for security from attack or security on health care, you're entrusting that a lot of personal information won't be used against you.
Unregulated, for profit companies doing the same would at least have to worry about going out of business if they used info. against their clients or simply released info. to other entities.
For example, we know how mental health records can hurt a guy or gal. Comes to mind the Soviets crossed the line between the two and used it to the max against dissidents. And that this is exactly the reason that many on the right of the aisle fear socialism so much.
by artappraiser on Sun, 01/14/2018 - 5:04pm
Thanks for acknowledging my point, agree with your observations.
by NCD on Sun, 01/14/2018 - 7:12pm
There is no paradox. Providing health care is not the same thing as spying on us. In any case, I trust a democratically-elected and accountable government to do both with appropriate safeguards - including court oversight. Regardless, what's most interesting is the incessant focus here on me personally rather than on the particular positions that I take. One has to wonder why those who disagree with me are so intent on attacking me - especially since I never or virtually never make ad hominem attacks. Of course I don't need to.
by HSG on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 10:43am
The Hal paradox is explained when recognizing you very often use any issue you find to attack the Democratic Party.
If one trusts a government to tax us to a fairer income equality, with all the personal sensitive financial information, taxes and data that would be collected, and also support a government paid for cradle to grave single payer health care system, with all the personal medical data and information necessary to justify that care....one cannot go around agitating and spreading fear about emails or phone calls logs - kept by private corporations - being available to government courts and law enforcement.
Without objectively noting the positions are incompatible, incongruous and conflicting, and reveal a biased inclination to attack Democrats.
by NCD on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 12:14pm
NCD, Hal doesn’t think things through. He never thought about what you just mentioned. He never thought about the fact that voting for Forrest Gump (guess who?) would either give us a president who didn’t know how to get his dreams/wishes accomplished ... which would never have happened...and instead gave us the crude guy who has accomplished much malfeasance. Legislation? Who needs it?
The Dem Primary voters got it right, as did the majority of voters.
by CVille Dem on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 5:58pm
Thanks, agree. Hal grasps onto any news/opinion piece that he believes will discredit the opposition Party. It makes me think he doesn't care about opposing Republicans.
Saw this concise apt characterization, from 2012, on the GOP double con:
by NCD on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 11:24pm
Hal, speaking for myself, I can say that you react in a very typical way to every idea that is presented. You give academic-style challenges, but you never pay attention to the thoughts and ideas that many of us go to the trouble to respond to you. You have wrapped yourself up with a candidate who lost with the party he only pretended to be a member of. You insist that the popular vote-winner was a weaker challenger to the candidate who promised to ban Muslims, Mexicans, and others. He promised wonderful health care (not having a clue of what that would mean), and people BOUGHT it.
This is despite the well-thought out, AND WELL FUNDED approach of the Hillary campaign.
You don’t acknowledge that your stubborn mind-set has hurt the country, and so, yes! I call your bluff! I say it is you! You are incapable of comprehending the thoughts of others who want the best for our company. I think, basically, that you are incapable of empathy.
This might be why you so rarely respond to my comments.
PS: these are NOT ad hominem comments
by CVille Dem on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 7:45pm
I don't see many comments that I'd consider ad hominems against you.
Ithink it's clear that you are pushing an agenda, trying to sell something, something you are passionate about. Whether it's blog entry or a news post, it's usually about your agenda. That's one kind of blogger, but another is more like a diarist, just sharing their thoughts on things.
You've therefore branded yourself with your advocacy. If commenters don't agree with brand/the advocacy, I don't see that as an ad hominem. They're not attacking you personally, they're attacking what you are pushing. They don't like what you're selling. The regulars do it all the time because you're doing it all the time.
Try writing on something else that's not political, that truly doesn't have anything to do with your agenda, and you'd likely see very friendly responses. Of course, again, if with that you.re going to write like an advocate for something, it's not to work out, i.e., some of the most famous nasty ad hominems are between a sports fan of one team vs. the sports fan of another.
Most people active in discussing here don't seem to be that interested in pushing an agenda. They might have one but they don't use the site to push it to others. They might say what they believe and who they voted for and express who they wish would lose an election and who they wish would win an election, but they are not trying to convince others to go along with them. It's more like when they analyze that someone else seems to offering up stuff detrimental to what they appear to want or like that they attack. That's when I see people here attack you on Hillary vs. Bernie, they think you should have come round to supporting Hillary and that would have helped with your own stated goals. That's not an ad hominem either, that's constructive criticism. You disagree, you continue to push that doing it the Hillary way will not.help with your agenda.
I'm going on and on about this because it's something that interests me from way back from TPMCafe days. Early on, it really upset me when Josh Marshall was doing a series of entries on how he'd like to see the site develop, he said he'd like to have be partly for "political activism". I knew from past group blogs, including one where I was a moderator, that introducing "political activism" is like throwing a bunch of lawyer advocates with their "talking points" into the mix, and that would constantly destroy the "civil conversation" he also said he wanted and which the initial small group of members was very successfully having. (BTW that ended up water over the damn with the great invasion of Obama fans in 2008 and the smaller set of Hillary fans.)
People don't think lawyer advocates and salespeople and their cohorts, political war room spinmeisters are honest, it's just that simple. I give you credit for really skillful rhetoric, you actually do an amazing job of keeping it civil. You "listen" to other points of view and seem to try to adjust your rhetoric to them to a point. But if people dislike the product, or don't see sense in it, they are still going to be throwing at you, and often. Also if all you want to do is brand yourself as selling one thing and even if they happen to agree with some of what you are selling, they may distrust all your arguments.
by artappraiser on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 10:31pm
"Warrentless wiretapping" is the most important issue about which frankly I don't give a damn. Scarlett.
I recall gettingi cleared for something or other and in the process being given the classified dossier about me to carry between offices. Naturally , like any one, I had to take a leak, i.e. read them. What a bunch of nonsense ! Back in the dear departed days of the Hillary "email scandal " (yawn) Hal asked me whether I wasn't worried about her failing to comply with security regulations . My answer was that a large proportion of the classified documents I'd happened to read reminded me of the Flavius dossier I'd read in that men's room .
And recall meeting a truly top security official whose name , was and is , mentioned in awe. Lunch's venue - his choice- a non descript hotel dining room, empty, in a no- where suburb of DC. Son of the Flavius dossier!
Maybe as a consequence I've been bemused as various friends acquired shredders. Because A I doubt whether the importance of the stuff fed into the device rose to the level of my long ago dossier and B if anyone actually did want it,they'd have long ago gotten it.
And yet.
I'm slow to criticize Nancy and Debbie and Adam for backing the Administration. If the bill was primarily intended to permit the NSA to intercept traffic by non US citizens transiting the US , be my guest. And if it also meant some govt. agent learned that I was suppose to bring home a gallon of low fat and a head of endive. Ditto.
Just wish they'd give me an F.U. 20 minutes later . About the endive
by Flavius on Tue, 01/16/2018 - 12:16am
You honestly don't care if the government, which has the power to imprison you for life, is harvesting your emails and phone calls? Wow.
by HSG on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 8:39am
Honestly no.
by Flavius on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 10:45pm
On a certain level I agree with you, on another level I don't. I too don't actually worry about the government tracking anything I do online or my emails. At 60 I rarely go to protests anymore. My online activity has a small footprint, the news, netflix, World of Warcraft or other games, some informational type videos or music on youtube. I haven't looked at porn for a couple of decades. After downloading at least 50,000 pics it starts to get boring. Nothing I do now is embarrassing and I was never important enough for anyone to care what I did.
I support restricting government surveillance in solidarity with those it could hurt. Government surveillance can find embarrassing information about leaders of political movements I support. It's happened before, it's probably still happening though perhaps not quite as severe as it was with MLK. It shouldn't matter if an activist fighting for environmental protections or against voter suppression etc. had a sexual fling, viewed some kinky porn, or is a closeted homosexual. But it does and threats to out someone unless they stop their activism can be effective.
We must fight to protect the privacy of all to protect the ones it could hurt.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 01/15/2018 - 11:40pm