Michael Wolraich's picture

    The Myth of the Militant Homosexual

    Indiana Governor Mike Pence is shocked—shocked—that people see anything objectionable in Indiana’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act. “Was I expecting this kind of backlash?” he exclaimed, “Heavens no.”

    After all, who could object to religious freedom?

    Yet, there is something fishy about the Christian right’s newfound passion for spiritual liberty. For most of American history, the First Amendment has been the redoubt of religious minorities: Catholics, Jews, Mormons, atheists, and others. The 1993 federal law that Indiana lawmakers claimed to innocently reproduce was inspired by a Native American who was fired for smoking ceremonial peyote.

    Mainstream Protestants, safely in the majority, have had little need for such protections, and right-wing groups have often opposed efforts by the ACLU and other civil rights organizations to defend religious minorities.

    So why the sudden clamor for religious freedom?

    Read the full story at the Daily Beast

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    Comments

    Lost her orange juice commercial ads job over her militant push against same sex orientation. It left her with only speaking tours with church groups.

    She was the cause of a law that stopped adoption of children by gay couples in Florida.  It was finally declared unconstitutional after being on the books for 31 years by the Second Circuit Court in Miami.  Many gay couples in Florida became foster parents in Florida to children that no one wanted or had special needs because they could not adopt.  I read many stories about how gay couples would foster kids that had extreme discipline problems and turned them around. There were social workers that had these couples in the rollerdex to call on a minute's notice to help out. It became hard to justify that law when there was so many kids in need of a home. 

    She tried her hand again after the Florida passed a law against discrimination against sexual orientation. She worked hard to get a constitutional amendment passed by the voters to overturn this law.  The amendment failed to pass on the ballot. I don't think she was living in the state at the time. She sure did a lot of preaching around the state. 

    I find her a very sad person because her fanatic views cost her so much.  I know she tried to revive her singing career but it failed in bankruptcy.  She made her anti gay activism part of her preaching circuit which was all she had left of her career.  She ended up on the wrong side of history.   

     


    Dolce & Gabbana recently came out against gays siring kids thru articial conception, even tho they're gay, such as criticism of Elton John & his husband. Should D&G's careers be ruined too? I'm curious about freedom of speech issues - including how do we as a species progress if we're required to respect conventional wisdom and mores? I'm sure someone would be railing against Copernicus for his counter-science ideas, how he was damaging the children...

    Dolce and Gabbana have opinions.  They aren't refusing to work with or sell to same sex couples with children.  If people find their opinions odious enough that they no longer want to buy D&G apparel, well... the designers knew the risks and they operate in an industry where this kind of thing very much might matter.

    Not all gay people want marriage equality.  To some, reaching for heteronormative rights like marriage and raising children dilutes the experience of being gay.  That's not the argument the designers made but my point is that no group is monolithic.

    Should their careers be ruined?  It's really up to their customers (as it always has been).  I own two of their shirts and I plan to keep wearing them.  If it ever comes time to buy another designer shirt I might well stop and think, "you know, there are other great designers out there with less odious social views.  Though, to be fair, I don't fit into anything Prada makes.


    I had an interesting conversation with a friend a few years ago, just after NC passed the referendum against gay marriage. She was an openly gay black woman with a strong Christian faith, and was pleased with the outcome. Freely admitting that hers was an odd position to some, she explained that what she wanted was the freedom to love who she chose without being judged as "different". Yet she also believed that marriage was a religious union between a man and a woman. A civil union for legal equality was sufficient, she considered it wrong to force Christians to accept anything else. She understood where her personal line was drawn between her faith and her life within it ... and found peace with her God.

    Needless to say, she lost friends on both sides of the issue. But if more people could see the gray within the black and white as clearly as she did, maybe change would come through understanding instead of conflict.


    Thanks, this was an example of the type of split I was referring to. People could be pro-gay but not pro-gay marriage - like the founder/CTO who lost his job because he made a private contribution to a campaign against gay marriage - revealed through campaign contribution reports 5 years later. That Obama had "evolved" on the issue during the same time didn't matter. So is "liberalism" having the right list of beliefs or having the tolerance & creativity to reconcile diverse beliefs, even if they have shades of "odious" to some. (trying to explain to my daughter that in "trial by media" amplification chamber not every offense of PC is actually guilty or even worth discussing )

    Except that they weren't legally equal. It's been many years since civil unions were part of this discussion so I don't remember the details but I read articles at the time that talked about the differences between marriage and the proposals for civil unions. This problem could have been solved in several ways but the right wing Christians wouldn't compromise. They thought they could win so they opposed civil unions with legal equality.


    Yeah, they weren't.  It seemed like a nice, easy solution to just say that marriage is for churches and that civil unions are what the government recognizes but the same sex marriage opponents moved the goalposts to get rid of that rhetorical out but turning the civil union into a kind of diet marriage. I think adoption and inheritance rights were at issue.


     Yes, it did seem like a nice, easy solution to just say that marriage is for churches and that civil unions are what the government recognizes. The reason that would have been easiest is because that is , in fact, the way it is and making that clear and going from there to reform would have given fair respect to religious beliefs held by so many. Please do not confuse what I am saying as defense of bigoted idiots, many of whom share those religious beliefs.

     I don't doubt for a moment that what OC says about proposed civil unions is correct but what was proposed didn't/doesn't need to be what is adopted. Of course those who oppose gay marriage would move the goal posts if they could, certainly the bigoted idiots would but their definition of civil union did not need to be the only one considered and so then rejected. I have expressed in the past an opinion very much like barefooted's friend which I re-post below with the only change being some highlights.

     

    To the part of this discussion which has moved from public opinion pressuring business decisions to talk of gay rights and gay marriage, I throw in the following based on the idea that words have power.
    I believe the arguments about marriage have been complicated, prolonged, and polarized by a refusal to define terms to fit reality as it has become. The word 'marriage' has come from past times and until recently was used without confusion to refer to the civil contract entered into by the participants whether or not it also was seen by those participants as a commitment to God based on religious beliefs and sanctified by the religion of the participants. The church participates in the two parties making a vow to God and breaking that vow to God has no legal implications whatsoever. Any church refusing to sanctify a vow which does not meet their religious requirements is perfectly alright in doing so under civil law and that is the way it should be.
    If the word 'Marriage' was thrown out of civil law and all marriages were, in the eyes of the presiding government, defined as 'civil contracts with rights and obligations defined by that government but the very same for any parties allowed to enter into that contract, then the debate could be much simpler and much more constructive.
    My personal example, which I have used before, is my marriage as a person raised in the Catholic church to a woman who was a Mormon. The ceremony was by a Mormon Bishop which meant, to my understanding, that the Mormon church recognized us as being married although they did not grant me any privileges which that church reserves for Mormons who had gone through various steps towards sainthood. They also did not allow that my wife had the privilege of being bound to me for eternity, something we eventually both came to view as a good thing although we are good friends twenty years after reaching that conclusion. The Catholic church would deny our right to ever break our marriage contract.
    My own [former] Catholic church does not believe that I was married at all except to the extent that they acknowledge my civil marriage but still saying I was not married in the eyes of God. I can live un-worried about that just as I can be un worried about how a few thousand other religious sects [?] view the commitment I made when I said, "I do". The state cannot say that I was not married because of any church position and it also cannot, and should not be able to say that the Catholic church must call my union a marriage. In any case, the state of Utah endorsed my marriage and so the other 49 were obligated to do so too. That is because under civil law, which is the only kind that government has any right to apply to marriage, the state saw that marriage as a legally binding civil contract.
    Simply recognizing what is in fact the case, that in the arena of statutory law that all marriages are civil contracts, would narrow any controversy a great deal. Then define what combinations of humans are allowed to enter into that contract. When the civil union contract is seen as a legal document outlining the rights, obligations, and privileges defined under that contract and which are, or should be, equal among any who are entitled to enter into the contract as specified by law, it becomes a thing which no church can put asunder.
    I say that the word 'marriage' should be removed from the legal definition of what has been commonly called marriage and should be replaced by civil union. If gays, for instance, want to be joined and want all the legal rights and privileges granted to a heterosexual couple who are joined in what is actually a civil union even though many use a different term to describe it, then I say that all they need do is join a religion or church that recognizes a gay civil union as marriage and which calls it marriage. There are Christian churches that will do so. Those gays will then be married as much as I ever was. Or as little as I ever was depending on which religious authority they might see as an authority. If they want equal rights then demand the rights allowed to any other civil union, support has been moving rapidly in that direction for a while now. Meanwhile, I wish they would quit creating and pushing a political issue in a way that concentrates on one religiously significant term in a way that is very politically beneficial to the very ones who want to deny them any rights to any consensual arrangement at all that has anything to do with their sexuality. That bunch will strive to take away plenty of other rights beyond the laws concerning marriage, other rights that are important, even vital, to all of us. Let the terms 'marriage' and 'civil union' be meaningful in their separate realms but not overlap into each realm.
    Gays who push for the right to be married, as opposed to being civically union ed, and those who support them and jump into the polarized fray on those terms, are actually and demonstrably doing harm, even though it is unintended, to the Democratic party. That is usually frowned upon around here regardless the right or wrong or nuanced complications of the issue at hand. [End of repeated comment]

    This is not a big issue with me like it is with my gay sister who agrees with you. Things are going the way you would choose and that is okay by me except when the fight for a good change hurts politically in a way that could have been at least somewhat avoided, IMO. Right now I am not arguing so much for my previously stated  position, but merely arguing about the arguments here and now.

     

     


    I mostly agree with you and if there had been a rational negotiating partner that would likely have been the solution. But absent a rational negotiating partner a fight for civil unions for all would have politically and symbolically been seen as gays and their supporters fighting to take away marriage licenses from heterosexual couples. Even if all gays agreed that civil unions for all was the best outcome when the other side refused to compromise marriage for all was the best path for equality. Change has been unusually fast so a fight for civil unions probably could have overcome that political and symbolic hurdle, but at the time I'd have argued marriage was the only path left. I'd have argued that the right left gays and their supporters no choice but to abandon civil unions and fight for marriage.


    Civil unions under the umbrella of marriage take place every day. I would guess that the percentage of heterosexuals who marry with no religious inclusion whatsoever is quite high. Whether it's City Hall, a drive-through in Vegas or on a beach with all the trimmings - all that's required is a license, witnesses and someone with state legal authority to perform the "ceremony".

    A union can only be dissolved through a court procedure, whether you were married by the Pope or a county magistrate. Legally, marriage - the civil union - has never had anything to do with religion. (If it did, rather than being religiously offended by homosexual marriage, it would make more sense to oppose one between two athiests.)

    So, yes, anyone who marries enters into a civil union. If a couple desires their religion sanctify it, then they can do so.


    Well sure, that's what I did. But we didn't tell people we've been civil unioned. We decided to get married. We got a marriage license. We got married by a judge, in a "ceremony" so perfunctory I can't recall a single detail of it. Then we told people we got married.

    Again with a rational negotiating partner this could have been solved easily. Just have governments issue a Contract of Civil Union to everyone. Once it's signed the union is legally recognized. And churches can issue a Proclamation of Marriage in fancy calligraphy all embossed in gold if they want. The couple can call it anything they want.

    Given the current system and the colloquial understanding of that system fighting for civil unions against an intractable opponent gets complicated. Simpler to just fight for equal rights through the current system, marriage.


    Hmmm ... maybe it's a bride thing. My marriage didn't last but I remember every detail of the wedding. Might also be because I planned the ultimately damned event.

    You're mostly talking semantics here. After all, a "hashtag" used to be the "pound sign" - still the same symbol but with a broader, more modern interpretation. All I'm proposing is that the legal argument for civil unions is already in place and practice. And same sex marriage will likley be the same before too long. The Christian conservative outrage isn't about marriage, civil unions or even legal equality. At its root lies the sense that sin is being accepted ... and that belief is as real to some as the morning sunrise. Perhaps something as simple as changing terminology could help to bridge the gap between honest faith and civil justice.


    I'm sure I'd remember it if there was an actual wedding. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think it's just semantics. The view of a marriage license isn't that it's already a civil union and that's a cultural mind set. That mind set would have to be changed in addition to convincing people gays should have one.

    The question is moot anyway. Gay marriage has won. We're just looking back at the history of the fight while we watch the end game just to see how long it takes for the score to reach 50.


    Anita Bryant was very active politically in the late 1970's and early 80's in Florida.  She organized the fight to have the right to discriminate against gays being able to live where they wanted and to have families. She attended rallies and city counsel meeting to push this agenda.  It is was such a shock for the pretty all American girl that everyone liked to be so thoughtless.  There she was on the national evening news saying gays should be kept away from children because they would harm the kids and corrupt them.  The gay community boycotted orange juice but everyone else just didn't like this side of her. She lost most of her fans because of how she went about it. 

    I loved her music and made sure I got to see her on TV but after she became so radical, I couldn't see her or listen to her music with the same passion.  She was causing to much controversy, so the entertainment industry dropped her as well as her sponsors.  She ruined her own career.  


    No one cares what I say so I can say whatever I think. But if fate gave me the opportunity to make a public statement that went viral the owners of the ghost town would fire me as caretaker. Everyone has free speech but not freedom from the consequences of that speech. Sometimes I agree with those consequences, sometimes I don't. That's life.

    Of course I'm not worried because I know dagbloggers would send me $800,000 if I got fired. Thanks in advance folks!


    For what it's worth, I care a lot about what you say.  I almost always learn something from your posts.  If you get fired you are welcomed to a weekend chez moi board and bread (I'll even include a few bottles of my home-made wine), but I won't contribute to anyone's "go fund me" requests.  I actually got burned a couple of times when I "loaned" a couple of people some money when we were all TPM'ers;  I know that the fundme campaigns aren't loans, but I just came to realize that the whole scenario is really ridiculous when you think about it.

    BTW, I actually do get that the $800,000 thing was a joke -- that is part of what I love about your writing.


    Thanks CVille. I agree with you about the go fund me campaigns. I give all the money I can afford to people and causes I know are worthy. I don't have enough to toss at unknowns.


    Please explain how freedom of speech exists when there are drastic consequences? Even North Korea has free speech then - say what you want, then get locked away. No one has tape over their mouth to start. Our american concept of free speech is a bit naive - governments aren't the only regulator of free speech - peer social pressure is the main one. So its nice if government doesn't crack Dow n on speech ( thoughours has prosecuted people for what they write on blogs and occasionally audit those commies with suspect nations). But how we shun or support our neighbors with peculiar opinions is more important. East Germany used citizen informers - we can play that role without gov dictum)

    You're conflating different things here. We can make laws that forbid the government from punishing people when they speak in ways that piss the government or other people off. We can use the police and the law to protect the person and their property if they say things that piss people off. We can even make laws forbidding employers from firing or punishing employees for saying things that piss people off. But if someone uses their speech and  people get pissed off we can't make laws that force people to continue to buy the products of people who pissed them off. We can't make laws that force people to continue to talk to people who pissed them off. We can't make laws to stop people from saying pissy things to people who have pissed them off, unless it's a threat of violence.  How ever you or I might feel about that only peer social pressure can control peer social pressure.

    That's a reality that every one faces one doesn't have to be famous. Even little people like me face it. By chance I worked as a handyman/painter for many jewish families. I did high quality work at a reasonable price and I was passed around their circle of friends. If I said antisemitic things it wouldn't have mattered how good my work was or how cheap my price. I wouldn't have gotten those jobs. On the other hand I don't politely laugh or sit in silence when people make racist, misogynistic, or homosexual jokes or similar speech. I speak up and confront racists, misogynists and homophobes. At times that caused people on construction crews to shun me. You make your choices and you face the consequences. That's life.


    No, it's not "life" - it's a societal choice. Societies decide either overtly or subconsciously what to shun and what to accept. Sometimes they make laws to encode this behavior, sometimes they just let it carry forward through societal proscriptions. Gitmo's still open and mass surveillance continues largely because we as a society are more worried about terrorism than individual rights. If a lynch mob or a gang wants to come for someone, there's fairly little police can do to protect the person, aside from moving him/her away.

    But it's also about the societal choice of whether to take politics or people's personal lives so seriously that they have to react. I get horrified when "liberals" think public shaming is a great thing. Yes, maybe sometimes it's useful and necessary, like all tools, but the knee-jerk reactions on left or right just make me think another thoughtless mob-think is forming. Walking around Berlin today with this amazing teeming mixed city - 20 different ethnic groups, businesspeople/craftspeople/junkies/tourists/streetmusicians/foodstand workers etc. - and I actually thought of this conversation, & I thought about how many of the wonderful people on the street & in the parks & markets have objectionable thoughts and attitudes about this and that, and how sometimes it seems better to just not dig too deep, accept that if we want we can find something we don't like, but same goes for us, and simply let it all slide... Kesey used to say "don't tke the gauntlet, just walk away".


    If a lynch mob or a gang wants to come for someone, there's fairly little police can do to protect the person, aside from moving him/her away.

    I think that's ridiculous. While there might be rare occasions when the emotions of the mob run so high that all the police can do is remove a person, that's not the norm. Lynchings usually happen when the local government supports and often participates. Larger government forces higher up the chain of command either tacitly support or are silent. When higher government in American decided that lynching was no longer acceptable they put pressure on lower governments or sent in federal agents and quite easily stopped them. It's a matter of will not ability.

    I'd like to see you offer some alternative to peer pressure controlling peer pressure. What laws would you pass to protect the Dixie Chicks from the economic punishment waged against them by the right? What laws would you pass to protect Rush Limbaugh from the economic punishment waged against him by the left?


    I get horrified when "liberals" think public shaming is a great thing.

    I agree with you about that.  I think there's way too much shame in society, or too much shame about the wrong things, at least.  Shame is, after all, what was unfairly imposed on gay people for many, many years.  We should open minded when dealing with our fellow citizens and far less judgy than we are.

    The problem is, this only works if all sides are not judgy.  


    But liberals don't have to become prisoners to using conservative tactics either, do they? Sure, fighting back  here & there (probably the Indiana outcry was a good example, especially since it was combating overreach in use of government, and remember the fightback against Anita Bryant as being a good turning point) - but it's hard to foster being tolerant through no-tolerance campaigns - a certain amount of contradiction there - it's not that I give a damn about the Douthats of the world - it's just the tactics corrupt one's own soul. There is a good deal of hatred towards religions, towards regions, and of course the continuing invective against white men - so what, we drop white from the rainbow? not the kind of "why can't we all just get along?" that I'm a fan of. Can we do a positive agenda?


    There's a certain simplistic beauty to the "hippie" idea that as long as it doesn't harm anyone else, it's okay. But while many Christians have a problem with the premise, the devil's in the details.


    Thanks, Momoe. I wasn't aware of her later career and campaigns. Sad indeed.


    She tried to revive her singing career in Branson and it flopped, Leaving her owing money to venders, employees and banks.  It ended in bankruptcy. 


    So much of this controversy is right out of Blowing Smoke.


    Yup. I didn't really have time to write this week but felt like I couldn't pass it up without saying something.


    Glad you did.  Wish more people knew about Blowing Smoke because it's very annoying watching people get away with something that ou already thoroughly exposed.


    You know we all forget about the Spartans.

    Now there was a great gay group.

    I am afeared as it were.

    'They are all conspiring to kill us'.

    It is those theatre groups, in local communities.

    I KEEP MY EYE ON THOSE PEEPS.

    I mean I have nothing else to do unless I am watching the youngsters on the playground.

    WHAT THE HELL WAS THE QUESTION AGAIN?


    I do not know why I had to sound so cheap.

    But you and Mike M end up at my favorite link.

    The Daily Beast.

    And this site LIKES you.

    What a fine site to be acknowledged.

    I make no fun of this.

    And the subject matter is not some magic shoe-in.

    I am proud.

    I really am.

    I work hard here and you and Mike M are honored here.

    THANK YOU.

    NO KIDDING.


    Thank you, DD. I feel bad that I don't blog much anymore and a little guilty when I append a "read the full story at..." link to the end of my rare posts, but dag is still the place that I always come home to. And I'm grateful the support and encouragement that you and other daggers have generously offered me through the years.


    Michael,

    I'm sorry I've not focused on this but you're point is on really solid grounds and is a critical one.  One additional particular concern of mine is this bill like others that this notion of corporate peoplehood, while enshrined in all kinds of precedent, did not before Hobby Lobby include the kind of First Amendment rights that we see in this law as originally written.  Nice work.


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