The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age
    Michael Maiello's picture

    Corporate Power and American Democracy

    Writing a weekly column and blogging here adds up to a lot of spilled words every week.  I'm even starting to sense an evolving theme that wouldn't have been the one I'd necessarily chosen if I'd set out to write a whole bunch of little pieces that were going to add up to something.  Don't worry, I'm not going to go all meta on you here.  Just introducing the idea I've been struggling with -- the role of the economy as an organizing factor in society and the role of corporate executives as the most influential, powerful and unaccountable leaders.  My column for The Daily this week has its origins in my recent Dag post about Obama's struggles to raise money on Wall Street.

    For what it's worth, this is how my understanding of corporations and American business is evolving.  During a decade as a financial journalist, where I met and spoke to a lot of tycoons large and small, and executives from big public businesses as well as the founders of start-up IPOs, I pretty much assumed that the profit motive ruled everything and that sometimes good people did bad or callous things in pursuit of the profits that they'd promised shareholders that they would pursue.  For the most part, these people behaved as fiduciaries and within the bounds of the law. When their choices weren't the best for their fellow citizens or society (Microsoft buying and burying upstart competitors, for example) we had to recognize that these choices were made within the context of profit seeking, which is the job these people were basically obligated to achieve.  The profit motive, by the way, is what some people think is the self regulating force in the private sector.  The government, free from the profit motive, has to be watched more carefully because the government can abuse you while Wal-Mart needs your good will.

    In pursuit of profits, I thought, businesses become very powerful.  "Money equals power" is a cliche, after all, and almost no cliches endure without having some truth behind them.  But what if "money equals power," is true, but not the whole truth?

    Certainly, there is power without money.  The President of the U.S. is powerful in a number of ways that have very little to do with personal wealth.  Not every influential person gets rich off their influence.  A municipal judge is very powerful if you're in front of him.  A college professor is very powerful if you need the grade.  Flight attendants have a lot of power while you're in their pressurized tube.  In short, you can pursue power for its own sake, without much regard for money.  Money doesn't equal power, it's one of many paths to power.

    I'm starting to suspect that many businesses, particularly the largest ones, are pursuing power by paths other than the pursuit of profits and that for many of these executives, profits are not an end but a means.

    There's no doubt that we organize a lot of society around the needs of business.  There are more subways that take you to work than the beach.  Our laws and social mores are pretty much in place to encourage people to go to work and shop while weightier matters are dealt with by other people.  The last time I brought this up, Oleeb mentioned protest pens.  Seriously, that's where we are now.  Even when people gather to protest something they're expected to stand where they're told and to disperse before sundown.

    The ultimate question is, to what extent would America's largest businesses actually like to govern America?  I'm starting to believe that these guys absolutely want to be in charge. That's what privatization is.  It's what "getting government out of the way" means.

    It's possible that the profit motive is simply an incomplete explanation for why corporations behave as they do.

    Topics: 

    Comments

    But do they want to be in charge for reasons other than enrichment?

    What are those reasons?

    Some very wealthy people conclude that their success in the business world qualifies them to run other parts of the world.

    IOW, since they've created Microsoft and are the richest people in the world, they NATURALLY are better qualified to fix the schools, cure AIDS, end hunger than folks who, by their standards, haven't accomplished as much.

    There's nothing a school superintendent knows or does that the tycoon doesn't know or can't do better because he's PROVEN his abilities in the crucible of of a highly competitive market place.

    They come to see the rules of the marketplace (which they've mastered) as the rules for ALL human endeavor.


    But then you begin to see that the Bill Gateses of the world aren't quite so altruistic as some believe, to wit, this story connecting the dots about Gates buying 500,000 shares of Mansanto stock, then giving a grant of $20 million to Genetically Engineered Golden rice, which has been called dangerous by many food scientists, and calling them trojan horses to get them into Africa and China...

    There are even stories that some of the gen-modified crops are responsible for new viruses infecting food supplies.  It's all crazy, antithetical to 'what's best for the planet's people'.  But if you can claim the crops will help, you are a humanitarian.  Reminds me of the bows Clinton takes in Haiti for 'helping'; the truth seems far from that.


    The issue of tycoon philanthropy opens up a whole jumble of issues.  My former boss Steve Forbes once said, and I'm not kidding, in answer to a question about his philanthropic work, that he supports The Heritage Foundation.  But even less overtly idealogical stuff still represents the biases of the very rich.  So the symphony plays for its patrons.  The museum displays what its patrons want.  If Bill Gates or Bono think that believe that African poverty deserves more attention than poverty elsewhere in the world, then... guess what?  They are directing the global conversation just by spending.

    Back in the day robber barons like Andrew Carnegie used philanthropy to make up for pretty serious crimes against their fellow men, to rehabilitate their reputations and to avoid being strung up.  Not saying it's all bad or dishonest or anyting like that, but I'm constantly annoyed by the people who cheer for philanthrocapitalism as a way to solve the world's ills.  Philnthrocapitalism is inherently oligarchal and undemocratic.


    What makes you think Carnegie used philanthropy to make up for 'crimes'?  What crimes?  Have you read his autobiography?  HIs "Gospel of Wealth" or anything else he wrote.  He actually advocated for a lot of what you would recognize as progressive policies.  He did not think great wealth should be inherited so should either be used for the improvement fo the human race or taxed at steeply progressive rates at death.  He thought establishing foundations was preferable to creating dynasties.  Personally I think they can be just as bad but how would Carnegie know that?  They were a new idea in his times.   His world is not ours. You really should not judge a 19th century philanthropist or even businessman by 21st century standards.  


    I'm judging him be events in the Robber Barons and by what Howard Zinn wrote about him and his treatment of unionized workers.  But for a quick reference, there's good ol J. Brad Delong, writing about his violent union busting in a Carnegie Endowment publication.


    Should have guessed it would be Zinn revisionist history.  Deliberate distortion and misinformation. Note from the DeLong piece: "Carnegie was a mass of contradictions--as if he was not one but three or four different people at once."  Yes, the Homestead strike was quashed by Carnegie's associate Frick in a bloody battle but again, as DeLong notes, "[Carnegie] was a man of great powers, of great flaws, of great benevolence, and great ruthlessness."  

    He was a remarkable self-made man, second only to Ben Franklin in sheer billance.  He deserves better than to be maligned by a quasi-historiian with a political agenda.

     


    It's not even so much the "bias of the rich." It's the bias of the private giver regardless of wealth. You give money to things YOU approve of. Public support represents some sort of collective debate and recognition that "this" is important to the community as a whole, not just to certain individuals.


    the alternative narrative, if anyone here cares to read a counter to the FDL version of the world, is @ goldenrice.org (dot org not dot com) and the central theme is the right to share in the benefits of science and unjustified and impractical legal requirements stopping genetically engineered crops from saving millions from starvation and malnutrition.

    Whether or not one agrees with either version, suffice it to say that It does not surprise me that the Gates Foundation is not luddite about agriculture and does not automatically think every innovation by a large corporation is evil for humankind. You know, like personal computers,i.e.,  they don't think those were an evil development just because the profit motive was involved.


    Also if you visit the site, you will see that it does argue that a varied diet is the first and best option, but owing to traditional third world problems, you know, like drought, famine, and inequal access to the fruits of land, etc., that engineered crops that are nutrient rich are a second best option unti that is,l we exist in a socialist paradise globe where every human has access to a gourmet balanced diet, which is surely coming if we just blog enough. I swear, by some standards, sometimes it seems if JFK's race to the moon in a decade would be described as a corporate plot to steal food from the mouth of babes. Used to be liberals were interested in scientific innovation to feed the hungry, not "live a primitive life and chance dying young if you are not lucky enough to have access to a varied diet."


    Obviously you realize that it's Monsanto's behavior in the U.S. and around the world that invites such skepticism.  The problem is that we awarded gene patents in the first place.  The building blocks of life should probably be held in the public trust.  Then you would see this kind of thing actually deployed for social good.


    The glories of the Vitamin A in golden rice have not been proven; there are questions about how bio-available it is, and even if all of it were, the consumption would have to be off the charts.  How much more effiicient to give out Vitamin A capsules.  This site explains some it.  Yup; liberals were into solutions, but they need to be sustainable solutions that have been proven to not have adverse effects on the biosphere and farming sustainability and crop diversity in case there are cascade effects only hinted at now.


    There's also some question of motive.  Monsanto has granted patent waivers for these crops, which, according to this presentation from the GR Humanitarian Board, which runs Goldenrice.org will be commercially released this year or next.  Sounds like the patent waivers are a loss leader.  If this works and it becomes a dominant price, the waivers will go away and the farmers will find themselves with big fat bills from Monsanto.

    We've danced this dance before.


    By 'not Luddite' you mean investing in, then pumping GE products into nations that don't want them, and aren't proven efficacious to boot, and are fans of monopoly corporate capitalism, then okey dokey.

    Nice to see you keeping up with spinning the issue, though.  But O; those impractical and unjustified legal requirements that are standing in your way of profiteering.  And say: can those farmers save their seed for next year?  Do they have to use Monsanto products on them?  And do they mix with conventional rice and change its nature?


    It rather seems we're being visited by an anonymous PR person for either the industry or Monsanto, doesn't it?


    It seems so!  Funny; he/she hadn't hit the diary at my.fdl yet, so I cross-posted your blog; hope it's okay, and pasted in one of the Corporate-spinniest comments.  This administration has okayed some use of GE alfalfa, and it's freaking out the small farmers.  Google 'dangers of GE crops and seeds; man; there is soooo much info out there.  And so much of evidence of a lack of testing and info about it all.  The 'unjust and unnecessary regultions' are one of the things I worried about that Obama has been parrotting from the CoC; it worries me greatly.

    There are so many stories about Big Agra buying up all the stocks of non-hybrid seeds...seeds folks had been saving in case of the hybrids and GE crops creating some cascading crop and soil failures.  Even lawsuits about GE crops changing the crops in adjacent fields.  IMO, it's a subject that requires much caution.  And a continent whose crops require Monsanto Round-up is a scary proposition: Round-up is hazardous in any significant quantity, and the FDA hasn't policed it well. 

    Google found this one; there are many more.


    Your ad hominen/accusation shows a closed mind and an attempt to google for support of that closed mind. Sad that this iw what self-identified journalists have come to. It's clear you didn't check out the site nor the history of the Golden Rice Project, the original inventors, nor the names on its advisory board, nor related institutions like the International Rice Research Institute. If Monsanto is involved, it's evil, that's all you need to know, right?


    LOL!  It's a lovely site, and the rice is so pretty, all saffron-colored.  Yep; looked at the directors, saw that Rodin was speaking as a recipient of Norman Borlaug's prize.  Nice.  And if mono-cultures of GE rice are so beneficial, and so without need of further study, why are you, assumedly a paid industry flack, here on this blog getting all riled up?  This so HB Gary, IMO.

    And why the need to ask for further de-regulation?  Doesn't smell right to me.  But I will say an extra prayer tonight for my allegedly ad hominem attacks on the rice.  Or was it Monsanto? 


    Well, that is the rhetoric, and say I concede for the sake of argument that it is even the intention, although I am actually far from convinced of this (on the grounds that the people involved are not that blazingly idiotic).  Someone who adheres to minimal scientific or engineering principles still needs to have a reasonable grasp of what is actually going to happen before moving into implementation. 

    I've been following genetically modified crops for years, initially quite enthusiastically.  And I'd still be enthusiastic if their impact had been tested before people decided, "oh, let's just do it!"  The testing had barely begun before corporations started spreading this stuff around willy-nilly.  WE DID NOT HAVE SCIENTIFIC TESTING RESULTS YET.  And, when the results of testing started coming in, indicating that there were considerable risks and complicating factors (like genes spreading through nonreproductive means a lot more than anyone had anticipated), heigh-ho, everyone just carried on anyway.  It's just dumb.  You don't take risks like that.  And you certainly do not circumvent the minimal check-or-balance of regulation (which is a FLOOR, not a CEILING), as if the very suggestion that one might ever do anything even slightly wrong or thoughtless would just make one's shell-pink ears shrivel and drop off one's head, and is therefore the greatest evil known to man.  It's bad policy, bad science, and bad engineering.  Maybe Luddites are against it, and maybe people who have a kneejerk reaction about corporations (for whatever reason) are against it, but people who actually care about science and tech are against it too.  It is a terrible misuse of science and technology, even a discrediting one.  If you're worried about Luddites, you probably don't want to make their case for them.


    Well put. This is exactly right.


    I'm a little tired now, but wanted to respond.

    I see the issue a few degrees off from you, I think.

    I think you could probably think of Gates as putting his money where his beliefs are. Yes, he's profiting, but also believes in the beneficence of GE rice. So he supports it with his money. It's possible that he's just greedy, but I think it's more likely that he "believes in" golden rice.

    If you had a bunch of money--hell, just think of the money you DO have to give away--you'd give it away to causes you believed in. In essence, that's what Gates is doing.

    So to me the issue is: private philanthropy vs government creating a more just society. Conservatives will argue that they are just as compassionate as liberals--maybe more so--but they don't want to be forced, through taxation, to spend their money on things they don't approve of. Like abortion or Planned Parenthood, etc.

    And they frequently point to people like Gates to prove their point. "Look at all the good he's doing. Voluntarily. If you think the government is the best way to address these needs, why don't you over-pay your taxes, etc."

    The problem with turning over social problems to the private philanthropy sector to solve is that these private individuals then get to decide which approach to say, education, will get funding, and which approaches won't. There is no community debating the issues: Bill Gates simply gets to decide which educators and schools are going to get HIS money.

    So the question might be: Is it better for society and for all the problems society faces to allow some individuals to accumulate massive amounts of money and then be in a position to give away billions as they see fit?

    Or is it better for society to put policies in place that tend toward a more equal distribution of income and thus a more equal say, perhaps, in how society and its institutions run?

    Some would argue that without people like Gates or Carnegie we simply wouldn't have the advances that have benefited millions and millions of people. But that's a discussion for another day.


    There is definitely a facet to "corporations" (why I put it in quotes in a second) that can best be illustrated by the audio of the Enron executives laughing about how screwed grandma was going to be when she got her heating bill.  And there is a real danger in the privitization movement, most recently seen in the new push for charter schools at the expense of public education institutions. My views of corporations as a child was shaped by Rollerball with James Caan as much as anybody's.

    I do think they are walking a tightrope, hoping that their de facto rule doesn't actually become de jure rule since that means the tea partiers as well as tree huggers will be on their steps with the signs of protest.  In other words, even though, as Tears for Fears says, everyone wants to rule the world, businesses want to be able to control the decision-making process around government, but they don't want to be saddled with the explicit responsibility.  Of course, everyone here by-and-large would like to control it, too.  It is just that the big corporations and industries have the ability to influence it. 

    The reason that I put the word corporations in quotes is that as you hinted at one point (ie American's largest businesses), much of what is wrong with corporations has to do with just a handful of the actual corporations out there.  The company that is technically a corporation down the street and which has 170 employees making widgets isn't the problem that companies like BP, Walmart and Massey are.  In particular the multinational coporations are particularly troublesome when it comes to issues of regulation and employment, and ultimately democracy.

    And the reason I bring this up is because there is a sense in this blog (or leaves me with the impression, rightly or wrongly)  that I see in other blogs and comments, which is that these corporations have ushered in something new upon the scene in the recent years.  As if in 1890s or 1910s we had this flourishing democracy where the monied elite did not influence politics.  As if back then we didn't have companies getting the government to bring in the foot soldiers to take down striking workers looking for an eleven hour work day. 

    As if when we look back into human history that there wasn't a time we haven't more or less organized our lives around our work rather than our leisure (with the monied elite in charge, or the ones in charge had all the wealth).  I'm all for more leisure and facilitating a society that embraces the finer things in life over making a few extra dollars.  But this isn't the corporations' fault.  They just came upon the scene with it already in place, and have exploited it to the extent that they can to what they perceive as their advantage.

    The moment privatization no longer is to their advantage for whatever reason (suddenly the charter schools have to teach all the kids in poverty as well), is the moment they will back down from it.  I believe that anti-monopoly legislation was able to be passed not because it was good for the people, but because enough of the businessmen at the time saw it as in their interest as well.  And so on. 

    There are definitely individual executives who can taste the power that has nothing to do with making money per se and want more of it.  But that has always been the case. I guess in a long about way corporations pretty much act the way businesses have always acted because the executives who are actually making the decisions are the pretty much the same as they have always been. 

    The question is how does one effectively counter their influence and power.  In other words, how does one disempower them and empower the people, without the people becoming them?  Which they are.  Is it possible to distribute power equally throughout a society that embraces democracy without chaos breaking out?


    Thanks, Trope.  And yes, everything you read an impression of or a hint of was there, and purposefully as hints and impressions, because I sense these things more than I see them concretely, if that makes any sense.

    I think the difference these days is size, even relative size, and that the problems lie with the biggest businesses.  I'll never understand why a small business would even consider becoming a member of the Chamber of Commerce.  Those guys hate little upstart businesses more than they hate government.  Indeed, they really seek to use the power of government to protect large established businesses from upstarts.  One of the problems is that a lot of small business owners out there look at big companies and say, "they have my problems, only on a larger scale."  That's largely wrong. 


    I think this is particularly important to note -- at a certain point, an increase in size turns a corporation into Another Thing Entirely.  (I write psych evals for employment/promotion candidates for businesses, some of which are very large, so I get an earful and an eyeful of all kinds of stuff.)  When businesses get too big, there is an inevitable shift in priorities away from what the corporation theoretically actually does into a whole world of nebulous meta.  Robin Dunbar famously made the point that groups larger than about 150 people (folks have fretted and fiddled with this number subsequently, but personally I like the original) lose a very basic and fundamental social connection and cohesion.  And then things get...weird.  And not in a good way.  People in these giant organizations really have to swim upstream to keep their bearings, and some do better than others.  (I think that it is entirely possible for a corporation to be at least reasonably effective and have more than 150 people in it, BTW, but it would be important to keep FUNCTIONAL groups relatively small and to give them a high level of meaningful autonomy and decision-making authority -- which is not exactly popular in gigantomungous businesses.)

    And indeed, big business is no friend to small.  No matter what big businesses says, it functionally has no use for small business other than to annihilate it, either by squashing it or digesting it.  In case any small biz people stop by who are considering that CoC move ;) -- I second your suggestion:  DON'T.  Big business is not exactly "into" competition.  This trait is actually to some extent understandable (although not laudable, or long-sighted) on a short-term pragmatic front, in that most big businesses are mind-blowingly inefficient and quite vulnerable.


    Thanks for bringing some psych info into this.  It's very interesting.



    Big business is not exactly "into" competition.

     "Seldom do businessmen of the same trade get together but that it results in some detriment to the general public" 

    Adam Smith


    It always makes me happy to see Adam Smith referenced in terms of what he actually said and meant!


    Thanks for coming over, katek.  ;o)


    LMAO thank you!!!  Of course, the "invisible hand" is indeed where poor Mr. Smith gets most abused by relentless misinterpretation.  His original invisible hand section is so utterly unlike the way it gets thrown around.  What he SAID boils down to that WHEN merchants' natural self-interest causes them -- not by their intention -- to behave in a way that happens to serve the broader social good, THEN they should not be regulated in that regard, because that would only mess things up.  Kinda just "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  It is a triumph of poor reading skills in Western society that this has been turned into "self interest is always for the best" or "no barriers to trade nowhen nohow."  Lemme see if I can find it...okay, I am just being nerdy now, but it makes me happy...

    http://spartan.ac.brocku.ca/~tmulligan/3p82inv_hand.html


    ;o)  Thank you; I'll read that Tomorrow (pun intended).  I thought See-through Digits-dude came from The Theory of Moral Sentiments, which was partly why so many believed he meant that men and business would always be contrained by some pragmatism or slef-interest that the good of all mattered to them i nthe end... to make sure things didn't get too out of balance.  I Wikied, and they plucked one bit out:

    ... In spite of their natural selfishness and rapacity, though they mean only their own conveniency, though the sole end which they propose ... be the gratification of their own vain and insatiable desires, they divide with the poor the produce of all their improvements. They are led by an invisible hand to make nearly the same distribution of the necessaries of life, which would have been made, had the earth been divided into equal portions among all its inhabitants, and thus without intending it, without knowing it, advance the interest of the society."
     
    Though he started with this, and I see little evidence of it in the 1%-5%-ers who rule so much of the economy now:
    "How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortunes of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it, except the pleasure of seeing it. Of this kind is pity or compassion, the emotion we feel for the misery of others, when we either see it, or are made to conceive it in a very lively manner. That we often derive sorrow from the sorrows of others, is a matter of fact too obvious to require any instances to prove it; for this sentiment, like all the other original passions of human nature, is by no means confined to the virtuous or the humane, though they perhaps may feel it with the most exquisite sensibility. The greatest ruffian, the most hardened violator of the laws of society, is not altogether without it."
     
    Whether due to an increase in socipathy, learned behaviors in that competive sphere, econ education...not so many seem to give a rat's ass at that level, IMO. 

    Oh, you're right, he did say it there first!  Although there are no reading skills so poor by which the "Moral Sentiments" invisible hand could possibly be misinterpreted...which is probably why it's the "Wealth of Nations" invisible hand that gets bandied about so opportunistically.  Of course AS was absolutely CORRECT about his Moral Sentiments invisible hand -- but, as with anything, Things Can Go Wrong so that it doesn't work.  And yeah, we're seeing a lot of that not-working going around in the rarefied atmosphere of the top 1% of the top 1%.  They have lost track of that they are part of a larger whole.  Any human being is a pretty worthless creature taken in isolation.  We're social critters, and we're both good at working together and wired for it.  We violate the built-in instincts and triggers that make it possible and productive for us to collaborate (in families, businesses, societies, nations, any group >1 of humans) at our peril.  That just invites disaster on more fronts than I can count.  People who think they can outsmart human nature are engaged in a peculiar and doomed exercise.  Real psychopaths at least have an excuse -- they genuinely lack that Moral Sentiments invisible hand and simply do not know what on earth it is people are talking about.  Fake psychopaths, I don't know what they're thinking.


    Anecdote.

    I was hosting a dinner for my board of directors.  One of my daughters, a college freshman , was a guest (the occasion made that appropriate)  seated near enough for me occasionally  to hear some of the conversation. She was arguing in favor of nuclear disarmament. Her immediate neighbor-also a ceo- was taking each of her statements and making the conventional counter argument . In a businesslike manner, neither indulgent nor over emphatic..

    Finally he laughed and said " I'm on the board of the   XXX Theological Seminary and that's our position too. I just wanted to see how far you'd go".

    So,' hey you never know.'

     


    Is this seminary in Chelsea, perchance?


    No.


    Motives are slippery creatures. It's difficult enough to pin a single motive on an individual, let alone a whole class of people.

    And dangerous, too. Motives help us tell stories. They turn real people into fairytale good guys and bad guys. A president who hates white people and secretly plans a socialist revolution seems far more evil than a well-intentioned politician with wrong-headed ideas. Likewise, a coterie of power-hungry bankers and CEOs who are secretly trying to dis-empower the poor seems much more evil than a bunch of shallow materialists who just want to get richer.

    Such stories are drugs. They get us high on righteous rage, and they're very addictive. Obviously, there are evil people in the world with bad motives, but our desire to discover such people tends to outstrip the evidence that we have and to reduce complex realities to deceptive black-and-whites.

    Way too many on the right have become addicted to such drugs, and I sense that the left is falling that way too, even here at dagblog.

    In short, my overwrought caution to you is this: You may not be developing a theme; you may be writing a story.


    Stories can also reveal truths.  And remember, I've done a fair amount of reporting on this over the years.  It could also be a little bit of both, of course.


    I think your instincts are right, Destor, for what it's worth.  I might have said sorry for bringing the corporate troll, but in a way, he/she served to make your point in spades.  Where there are massive profits to be made, profit can hide behind philanthropy or...the truth.  It seems that a decade of scientific anxiety and caution and pushback to gen-modified seed, or even the dangers of Roundup can be trumped by regulatory faux-oblivion, it's not a good thing.  IMHO, of course.  ;o)

    I think your Spidey-sense is very acute and worth listening to, and worth far more than a site's worth of PR spin like 'goldenrice.org'.  Katek's points about the immanageability (is that a word?) of companies larger than 150 employees is valid.


    I don't know what it means to say that stories reveal truths. Stories facilitate understanding but in doing so, strip out the complexity.

    I'm sure that there a business people who are indeed motivated by power, and I believe you when you say that you've come across a number of them. But how many examples does it take to prove that business people as a class are primarily driven by power rather than profit? How could you back up the claim? More importantly, how could it be disproved? To use a concept from Karl Popper, the theory is not a falsifiable.


    What is the distinction between power and profit as motivator? It seems difficult to separate the two once things get past the point where simple need can no longer be plausibly seen as driving decisions.


    Not sure that Destor suggesting there are motives in business is in any way radical. Because the profit motive is just that, a motive, which has risen and fallen over time, across industries and countries. 

    As for evidence, I'd say there are mountains of it showing that business has, in fact, wanted more power vis a vis government. Destor's noted privatizations, removing government from certain sectors, but much more generally, the funding of an entire message that the state is "against freedom" and "against" a whole lot of other values. In a number of countries, the linkages between business and the church and the military have shown us that business' message can, in fact, run well beyond pure personal financial interests.

    And sure, one can run amok in attributing motives. But the thing is, we pretty much have to, in order to even discuss society. Your version is that businesspeople are motivated by shallow drivers, seeking personal financial gain as their only end. Such an attribution of motives runs up against some fairly solid evidence that it is not complete, I'd say.

    As for your argument that using motives to help tell "a story" is a "drug" - surely you see that your own chosen motive (a very stark, "black and white" one) also helps to "tell a story," one which could just as easily be labelled a "drug."

    In fact, insofaras your version has been widely supported within the business sector (i.e. as "pure self-interest" seen through an economic lens), and has arguably had some very negative consequences for society, exactly why shouldn't we argue for opening up a wider set of motives, including some which show business in a dimmer light?

    Perhaps the conventional story is itself the danger - an addiction to a too-narrow, too black-and-white storyline.


    Actually, I was not arguing that business people are motivated exclusively by profit. My point was that it's very difficult to generalize motives, period.

    Nor do I see why we "pretty much have to" generalize a particular driving motive to a particular class of people. When bankers lobby against regulation, what does it really matter whether the majority of the individuals are primarily interested in power or profit--or ideology or altruism or fear or obstinacy or dental irritation? Regardless, we should still resist the lobby.


    I think what you may mean is that there are certain "stories" about how people are motivated that you reject and find dangerous. Ok, fine, I think we all agree with that, and the question then moves on to identifying those motivations and story-lines, and to combating or erasing them.

    The problem is that your version of how the world works has its own grand motivations, you're just pitching them more quietly - which makes them sound more level-headed, but they might in fact be drastically wrong for us as a society.

    For instance, you write, "A president who hates white people and secretly plans a socialist revolution seems far more evil than a well-intentioned politician with wrong-headed ideas. Likewise, a coterie of power-hungry bankers and CEOs who are secretly trying to dis-empower the poor seems much more evil than a bunch of shallow materialists who just want to get richer."

    Now, what you've done is amp up certain motivations so they're both obvious as well as extreme - "hates white people" and "power-hungry bankers" "trying to disempower the poor." But. A "well-intentioned" politician is still plainly carrying a set of motivations, and they may well be destructive of society - you've just smoothed their surface by dubbing them "well-intentioned." Same in the second example. The shallow types "just want to get richer." "Just" being the magic word to play down the impact of their motives.

    What does it matter what peoples' motivations are? Well... it matters enormously I think. I know that you don"t like business being tarred by the at times ferocious anti-business rhetoric of some these days, and find some of it unfair and inaccurate.

    But. Peoples motivations have always been central to sorting out how we're going to act politically and economically. To take an obvious example, I want to know - as best I possibly can - the motivations of Hard Right parties and leaders, Church and military and business leaders when we're at certain stages of history, such as the 1930's. 

    Similarly, if businesspeople are primarily caught up in an ideological war or personal power play, then I want to understand that - as opposed to them being time-serving managers or short-term profit and bean counters. Is this important? Well, see: Rupert Murdoch. 

    To operate without regard for their motivations leaves you flying blind, with no possible chance of making the right strategic moves - to negotiate, outflank, fold, partner, go to war, etc.

    Now, if you think there are particular story-lines rising up on the Left which are not only dangerous but detached from the facts... then by all means take them on. But I think the way to do that is to grab them individually, pin them to the washing line, and flog them publicly - on substance.  Not on whether or not they involve "motivations."


    I haven't had the opportunity to read it yet, so maybe I'm misunderstanding your book. The "why the right keeps serving up..." part of the title makes me think the entire premise is a generalization of the motives behind a particular class within the proletariat.

    Is there something I'm missing here?

    When bankers lobby against regulation, what does it really matter whether the majority of the individuals are primarily interested in power or profit--or ideology or altruism or fear or obstinacy or dental irritation?

    Why doesn't this observation apply to the "right" as well?


    I think the reason "motivation" matters--even if it is hard to get at--is that it gives us a clue as to how someone may act in the future. The near future.

    We see this conundrum in our current politics a lot...

    For example, we often see one party opposing a particular program or piece of legislation that it might otherwise support simply BECAUSE it is coming from the "other side."

    A lot of non-political people or "independents" find this to be irritating and irrational partisanship. "You're not thinking independently; you're only for your own team," they say.

    And sometimes this opposition is just a power grab by one side which doesn't care about the substance of a proposal, but only about gaining or protecting its own power.

    But the reasonable element in this opposition is the justified fear that said program or piece of legislation is just a stepping stone to much worse things the proposers INTEND to do after. A little bit like steaming the frog. So gauging motivation can be important.

    On the other hand, if you trust the proposer's motivation, then you might think through and support the proposed legislation on its own merits. Ideally, you don't want reject good ideas just because they come from the opposition.


    Attribute a large Corporation as having the character of a Privateer and a Nation State melded together.

     View large Corporations as having some the same stature, conflicts and internal competitions as a Nation State but without Geographic Loyalties that have been a prime characteristics (in the past) of a State.   

     A Business can have the Government or call it the control characteristics of a Nation State. It can have all forms of governing systems all operating together at the same time: Democracy, Confederation, Dictatorship, Socialism, and others.

    In fact a business can be at war between with itself with differing power centers vying striving for take over position or even secession from the parent.  A Corporation can be at war with other Corporations and even with a Nation State.

     Corporations have more options when a conflict is between Corporations than with a State. They can buy, compromise with, and spin off a profitable subsidiary to settle a conflict or to bribe an ally for a conflict.

     With a State a Corporation can corrupt a Government or overthrow it and install a government under their control. These two options can not be view as having the same control and predictability as a takeover or agreement with another Corporation.

    All of this is damaging to the employees, investors, and Citizens and Nation States they use and control.

     What we are involved in today is war. It is the Subversion of The Government of the U.S. and other Governments by “Privateer Corporations”.

     


    Just thought it would be interesting to note that one of the earliest events in U.S. history (when looking at the U.S. as an extention of the colonial powers that arrived after the Native Americans), was the Charter of the Virginia Company of London (aka London Company), an English joint stock company, established by royal charter by James I of England in 1606, with the purpose of establishing colonial settlements in North America.  I suppose one can say we started out in part as a business venture and still are today.


    Thanks!  Makes a lot of sense.  Though back then corporate charters didn't last forever, did they?


    Had to look it up, but it appears that royal charters are implicitly perpetual, although there are ways that the powers and rights they grant can be appealed. 


    Ah, thanks.  I guess a lot depended on the consent of the King back then.


    James I actually wrote a few books in his day, including  The True Law of Free Monarchies; or, The Reciprocal and Mutual Duty Betwixt a Free King and His Natural Subjects.  His take on his position says it all:

    As there is not a thing so necessary to be known by the people of any land, next the knowledge of their God, as the right knowledge of their allegiance according to the form of government established among them, especially in a monarchy (which form of government, as resembling the divinity, approacheth nearest to perfection, as all the learned and wise men from the beginning have agreed upon, unity being the perfection of all things), so hath the ignorance and (which is worse) the seduced opinion of the multitude, blinded by them who think themselves able to teach and instruct the ignorants, procured the wrack and overthrow of sundry flourishing commonwealths and heaped heavy calamities threatening utter destruction upon others. * * *

    Kings are called gods by the prophetical King David because they sit upon God his throne in the earth and have the count of their administration to give unto him. Their office is "to minister justice and judgment to the people," as the same David saith; "to advance the good and punish the evil," as he likewise saith; "to establish good laws to his people and procure obedience to the same," divers good kings of Judah did; "to procure the peace of the people," as the same David saith.

     


    Glad he didn't Win The Future!