MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
A CIA assessment of the data suggested that Russia intervened in the 2016 Presidential election in a manner geared to favor the election of Donald Trump. The release of documents of hacked DNC emails to Wikileaks was part of this intervention.
We shall see if Trump and the Republicans take a serious look into the evidence
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-orders-revi...
Comments
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-orders-revi...
A CIA report indicates that Russia intervened in the US election in a manner to favor Donald Trump
(my post from my iPad did not go through for some reason)
Edit to add:
The data was released to a bipartisan group of Congressmen. The White House wanted to release the data to the public back in September. The Democrats agreed, the Republicans were divided. Mitch McConnell refused to go along with releasing the information to the public, calling it partisan politics on the part of Democrats.
When you combine this with the action of James Comey on Hillary emails, the United States has experienced a coup.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/09/2016 - 9:13pm
It's going to be a bumpy ride for quite some time. What to do, what to do. Purge the CIA? Or convince the pro-Trump demographic that Russia is our friend?
by artappraiser on Fri, 12/09/2016 - 9:11pm
Trump voters will ignore charges that Trump and the Republicans are unpatriotic and tools of the Russian government.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/09/2016 - 9:15pm
Even if so, they are not the majority. There were already many bumps, see Pew Dec. 8:
Low Approval of Trump’s Transition
by artappraiser on Fri, 12/09/2016 - 9:33pm
Unless the Electoral College vote in an unexpected way, Trump is the President on January 20, 2017. The Republicans will probably block any serious investigation. It will require outside pressure to have any hope of a thorough investigation. Trump denies that Russia did anything wrong during the 2016 election.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/09/2016 - 9:41pm
Trump supporters will believe whatever Trump tells them to believe of course.
When Stalin signed the pact with Hitler to divide Poland communists immediately stopped opposing Hitler across Europe and in the US, including Dalton Trumbo of the recent typically whitewashed movie.
The Republican Party today has nearly as tight an ideological grip on its members. As in 1984, they could hate Russia one day, and admire them the next, depending on what the right wing 'big brother' propaganda tells them to think.
by NCD on Fri, 12/09/2016 - 10:36pm
But it's problematic for a president to say to the CIA: "you're fired!" He can try, but they have their ways of getting around that eventually. That was my only point: that this is a strong example of how things are not going to go smoothly for Bozo and his bus despite one-party rule. I.E., you aren't going to obliterate ISIS without the CIA's support or with a completely newbie CIA.
An upside: we're going to have a great revival for journalists, comics and bloggers. And that is where it will get real interesting, because he has a halfways decent demagogic understanding of manipulating via pop culture, but not a brilliant one. The talents who can play his game better than he can could bring him real low, he's got no other skill to fight back with.
by artappraiser on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 3:37am
Optimistic, as he controls access to Trump Brand, the main monetizer in news. I don't know that he cares to wipe out ISIS, but Putin having won Aleppo and Obama's Iraq alliance now taking Mosul will have largely done it by Jan 20. Instead, Trump will be digging deep for loyalty oaths and any sign of impurity or faithlessness to Trump dogma or worse, his persona itself.
The worst thing is that governments usually perform kind of normal whatever happens, and then they blame the inevitable fallout on someone else.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 5:01am
No honeymoon from the GOP:
Dispute over Russia reflects growing Republican resistance to Trump
Washington Post - 2 hours ago
Republican lawmakers are increasingly at odds with Donald Trump across a range of high-profile domestic and national security issues, an early sign that the GOP-led Congress might resist some elements of the president-elect's unorthodox agenda.....
by artappraiser on Mon, 12/12/2016 - 8:44pm
"When the law is on your side, pound the law.
When the facts are on your side, pound the facts.
If neither the facts nor the law are on your side, pound the table."...
....and get Putin to help .
by Flavius on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 12:10am
Another hazard of exerting this kind of control over agencies is that it diminishes the power of government as a sum of its parts.
The Bush II administration demonstrated this dilemma in lurid Technicolor as described by Alasdair Roberts in his book The Collapse of Fortress Bush. Here is how he puts it:
In the context of exerting control in the "narrow sense" described above, there is an important difference between the Bush and Trump teams: Bush came into power surrounded by veteran insiders who knew where all the buttons and levers were. Trump's inner circle are going to have trouble just locating the bathrooms.
[edited to correct quotation]
by moat on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 3:15pm
Precisely, moat, they don't even know where the bathrooms are.
I hadn't looked at the official response last night, I have now and I am actually shocked, The CIA basically says: we don't trust you, can you handle a complicated, troublesome information? And the first line is These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction! Is like a slap in their face, making blood boil at Foggy Bottom. It was not them still left that done that, it was the Bush team and their cronies in the agency that made them do it!
Looks to me like It's going to be controversy every single day is all I was saying. With all arms of government (and even maybe his own hires.) An extremely bumpy ride..If you go back to the Pew poll (cited by me above) and add this Allstate/Atlantic Media Heartland Monitor Poll to back it up, he doesn't have the majority of the people behind him, has no honeymoon effect to help. Then he's got all kinds of Lindsey Graham and other iconoclast varieties in Congress to be a thorn in his side.
Last night I was bouncing around business news websites and I see a lot of displeasure with him already in the way he's telling private corporations what to do, One even accused him of :"crony capitalism" and said something like "this is what communist planned economies do." He thinks he has a mandate, when all he did to win was manipulate a certain minority demographic in all the right states (something I do consider brilliant, I'll give him that.)
It's growing increasingly likely it's going to be a very very bumpy ride. No honeymoon, no trying to win a mandate, no trying to expertly manipulate the bureaucracy, just outrageous behavior every single day. Demagoguery 24/7 and none too skillful, just maddening. I'm getting the strong feeling that if he and his minions don't cool it down, there's an impeachment coming in the foreseeable future, it will be for something that's like a straw that broke the camel's back. I'm still hoping I'm wrong, but current activities are a bad sign.
(Afterthoughts: Is Trump really deluded enough to believe running the government is going to work out just like another episode of the Apprentice with him as king? Much worse than outsiders Carter and Clinton because there's not going to be an ounce of humility? Trump thinks he's Cheney, but he;s no Cheney?)
by artappraiser on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 2:52pm
P.S. I am sensing in those polls and the interpretation of them some interesting analysis along the lines of: this is an entirely new political situation, along the lines of a three-party system. That many swing voters looked at Trump like an Independent who would stir things up, they wanted the controversy, not the same old same old that would come with Hillary trying to work with a GOP Congress. That they were expecting him to be an outrageous iconoclast and that they were expecting everyone else in government to temper his outrageousness.
by artappraiser on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 2:59pm
We bought this crazy dog to protect the house. One problem that we did not foresee is that we cannot allow him inside.
by moat on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 3:12pm
hah. You using this metaphor, I am reminded of member "Mad Dog" over at agonist.org boards in the early Bush years when I was a moderator there, he was also a proud troll! He was more skilled than Trump though, always a cool cucumber as he riled the passions of others. Trump does not have the "play them like a puppet on strings" thing down of the best trolls.
I really do sense that comics are going to be the ones to stymie him the most, their parodies of anything he does are going to lend mass support to his enemies on any issue. That the fate of this administration may play out in.pop culture, and it will be his own fault. He learned some tricks of the trade doing "Apprentice" but he was still just an actor, does not have the skill of, like, creator/producer Mark Burnett. Win by the pop culture and die by it?
Just saw something about a movement to have Twitter ban his account...that will be an interesting fight in itself, all his hires for it?
by artappraiser on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 3:36pm
I remember Mad Dog !! Yes, he had that quality Costello described in song: "She was filing her nails while they were dragging the lake." Definitely not in the Trump lexicon.
The pop culture angle is very interesting. Just because you can use a platform does not mean you own it.
by moat on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 3:45pm
moat:
Teen Vogue's weekend editor, she's really got his number.Teen Vogue!!! I suspect even stranger things are to happen soon among pop culture millennial contingents. I find with the ones I've worked with that they cynicallysit on sidelines for long spans, yawn too much and wait too long to form opinions, but when they finally do, look out.
by artappraiser on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 8:25pm
This does appear to be what experienced political analysts are seeing, Example: Bill Moyers today: A call for a shadow government that will watchdog everything Trump and Congress do He's asking Hillary to do it, but I think it could come from within Congress itself. Ironically, some bipartisanism that Obama always wanted could come from reaction to Trump follies.
by artappraiser on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 8:23pm
I like Moyers' idea, but besides the fact that all of the shadow appointees would have to do this very important and time consuming work gratis, they likely would be in great danger. I think Trump is perfectly capable of sending "his people" out to take care of those he would label as traitors, and the AG would surely go along. What do you think about that?
My biggest question is, if there is proof of Russia influencing the election, is there no recourse? If not, it really is the end of the country.
by CVille Dem on Mon, 12/12/2016 - 10:01am
What do you think about that?
Yes, sure, could happen. Seems the only thing you can be sure of with Trump is that he will play a wild card or joker card.. Like I said, it's going to be a bumpy ride. And I think that undoubtedly the end result will be exceptional change to our system, if not revolutionary change. Unless he starts to behave like mostly anyone else with power in our country's history, which seems more and more unlikely every day.
My biggest question is, if there is proof of Russia influencing the election, is there no recourse? If not, it really is the end of the country.
This actually just doesn't worry me that much. Because: anyone with access to the internet can influence our election. Fake news stories from all kinds of nefarious interests probably have far more influence. Heck, some guys join ISIS after reading just a few sites for a while and end up bombing things like marathons, much less voting crazy. Whatever Russia did could easily have been overridden if just 10% more urban people in the right states had gotten out to vote. We've seen the Russian media under control of the state definitely influence a lot of people on this and similar sites. Glenn Greenwald influences a lot of people, etc. Putin knows how to manipulate media, we can't stop that in a country with freedom of speech and with access to the internet.
As I implied above, I'm more disturbed by the president elect's reaction to the C.I.A. noting this than what they noted. The C.I.A. is supposed to be a tool of the president for professional objective expert advice. If they are enemies or have separate agendas, that's a serious problem. Not that that hasn't happened in the past, it has, and it's always been a major problem.
by artappraiser on Mon, 12/12/2016 - 5:53pm
P.S. I didn't know when I wrote the above that this is basically the news of the day, that he thinks he doesn't need the CIA so much:
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-explains-skipped-intel-briefings-im-smart-person
by artappraiser on Mon, 12/12/2016 - 6:13pm
The Trump campaign says that there is nothing to see here.
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/trump-transition-team-issues-a-press-s...
Trump is a useful idiot for Putin
Edit to add:
In October, David Corn of Mother Jones reported that Russia had a long term plan to cultivate Donald Trump as an asset.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/veteran-spy-gave-fbi-info-al...
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/09/2016 - 10:16pm
If this were a murder case and you were on the jury would you convict and sentence [maybe to death] a defendant based on the evidence presented so far?
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 11:40am
So you do not believe that the DNC was hacked and data supplied to Wikileaks?
You are unconcerned by the Trump and friends ties to Russia?
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 11:55am
As one commenter to empty wheel notes the aluminum tube analogy is crap
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 12:07pm
Does your question and implied conclusion about my beliefs follow logically, in any twisted way, my question? Did you read either link [both fairly long] and give either of their warnings any thought before commenting within fifteen minutes?
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 12:08pm
What makes you think that I wouldn't spend a Saturday morning reading the news including responses to the WaPo story? I have also read the Trump campaign's weak response to the story. I'm going to track down the nine minute exchange with Trumpmcampaign's Spicer that occurred on CNN. I hear it got pretty heated? The RNC may have been hacked but the data held by Russia.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 12:18pm
Let's start over. If this were a murder case and you were on the jury would you convict and sentence [maybe to death] a defendant based on the evidence presented so far?
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 12:24pm
EmptyWheel updated her posting to note that the GRU had hacked the RNC and simply not published any of the material.
And this isn't a trial, much less a murder trial - it's an ongoing national security & intelligence emergency and that's how it should be/have been dealt with, though with a bit more urgency.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 2:45pm
Emptywheel addresses Russia's involvement in more detail. Wonder if Greenwald will ever back down.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/11/2016 - 4:58pm
Because the stand taken is that claims by the CIA or other government agencies shouldn't be taken on faith but should require evidence, then if evidence is provided there would be nothing to back down from. I agree that Emptywheel is a good analyst. Being such is probably why she does not conclude positively that the government claims are proven or should be believed positively. Here is more analysis by a group probably as well qualified to offer a sound opinion.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 12/12/2016 - 7:52pm
Tsk, tsk, Lulu. Consortium News is on the PropOrNot List!!! (heres their homepage) that the WaPo had so dutifully featured recently. Timberg's editor's note distancing himself, the disseminator of anti-Roosian agitprop was delightful.
Sure, they threw in some alex-jones type sites to make it all kinda/sorta believable, but this is the same WaPo that dutifully published the 'leak' of the combined 17 (or whatever) agencies' 'beliefs' about 'it was Roosians who'd hacked the...everything? Ye gods and little fishes; if you dissent about any of this rubbish here: you must be a Drump supporter. Such a black-and-white world most americans live in.
by Goldberry (not verified) on Mon, 12/12/2016 - 9:32pm
Ray McGovern & Mike Gravel & Larry Johnson, the 3 Stooges? Larry didn't humiliate and disqualify himself enough for you by being dead wrong on 9/11, his jackoff unhinged NoQuarterUSA PUMA gamut and his attacks on Kerry 3 years ago never followed up on? You still know how to pick the flaming disaster sources, don't you, Lulu.
Anyway, the CIA said they know who hacked it; don't know the chain for passing to Wikileaks et al.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/12/2016 - 10:48pm
You apparently cannot come up with an argument against the idea that we should be very skeptical of anonymous leaks unsupported by evidence. So, when Greenwald writes a well supported article that makes that point your response is “Greenwald doesn't care about evidence - he's just another partisan asshole, … …” You have demonstrated as much partisanship as anyone here and in this case a knee-jerk reaction to rant for an unproven allegation and throw ad hominem attacks rather than address the questions at hand.
Your response about Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity is more ad hominem bullshit. Maybe they are wrong and maybe you are the omniscient one who knows for certain what has not yet been revealed but your response is bullshit because it completely ignores what their statement says and jumps straight to ad hominem ridicule of three members and one member in particular based on something said on a completely different subject from long ago. [I recall arguing directly with Johnson a number of times at the Cafe’ over several issues. I agree he can be a jerk] Every member of that group may have some stand in their past which can be properly criticized. I don’t know, or even know of, a person who doesn’t, but the question regarding their memorandum should be whether VIPS, as a group, do in fact have the expertise they claim and did they use that expertise to correctly, intelligently, rationally, and believably, make a sound argument. Not a word about any of that in your response, just more snippy ad hominem bs.
Do you support Daily PUMA as a good source? Maybe I should link to something there supportive of Hillary written by someone who has said something stupid in the past on a completely different subject. That would prove that anything said by that person in support of Hillary is wrong and could be/should be ridiculed. Brilliant! Do you doubt such example exists?
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 12/13/2016 - 1:58pm
Larry Johnson jumped the shark after the 2008 elections - I know the name well. He was actually tied in with the jackass PUMAs - less being a jerk and more just crazy, or maybe both. Ray McGovern cracked me up with his "protest" wearing a t-shirt in a dark room expecting someone would notice him. Mike Gravel ran one of the strangest political ads in history. I guess it just makes sense they'd find a way to work together. Yeah, it's ad hominem, but for fuck's sake, Mike Gravel retired from his security position about 60 years ago -
But I did skim the piece to see if they had anything to say, and it seemed overridden by the CIA's new claim that the GRU hacked the Republicans as well so they know the packet-tracing stuff (hey, I know enough about that kind of thing too - do I need some big non-computer experts to explain routing & spoofs and hacking and what-all to me?) and they're working on how/who carried it to Wikileaks.
And Greenwald - when he's good, he's good. When he's dire, he's dire. Anything related to Hillary brings out his worst - he just loses his ability to be objective. Sure, we don't see a lot of evidence at the moment - the CIA's not tossing it all out to the public, and as Emptywheel noted, the FBI is more in the "where's the evidence, how do we take this to trial", while the CIA is more big picture and security implications and all that - a different game - if they waited for concrete "evidence" on security matters, they'd blow it - it's a hunch and grind kind of work. Yes, they eventually do nail it down with evidence, but that's not their sine quo non.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 12/13/2016 - 3:35pm
I comment with the expectation that I am doing so to everyone here, not just you. I have read that there are "experts" who say it is impossible to trace the path of a smart hacker. I have read other "experts" who say that it is possible for the NSA to do so. William E Binney who is on the steering committee of VIPS and a signer of the memorandum is one who says that the NSA can trace these. He seems to be as qualified as anyone whose name I have heard attached to their opinion. A part of his work bio from a good article about him and his work at Computer Weekly follows.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 12/13/2016 - 7:16pm
Yes, Binney and Wiebe would be sufficient and more serious by themselves.
Nevertheless, the NSA or whoever didn't say they couldn't track it - they said they didn't know where or more precisely how it travelled after hacked. It could have gone by flash drive, US post, carrier pigeon, etc
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/14/2016 - 12:50am
Seventeen agencies whose job it is to maintain US Security say that the hacking was done by Russia. Wikileaks then selectively leaked ones that would damage Hillary. When Hillary was surging in the polls, Comey decided that a coup de grace was needed and pronounced that the email issue wasn't dead after all.
I don't think any of the agencies would or should publish the methods used in their discovery of the hacking source. Are you saying that you need to see the mechanics of this, and otherwise there is no proof? The FBI didn't sign on to the other (17) agencies' statement. If only one agency said this and the other 17 disagreed I would be skeptical as well.
What would you consider proof? I think the fact that Senator Turtle did his best to kill it pretty much validates the intel. Remember those guys can actually see the proof. Not us.
Edit to add what I just saw at TPM:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/nyt-report-podesta-russian-phishin...
by CVille Dem on Tue, 12/13/2016 - 6:28pm
Via Reuters:
The objection by some "officials" is that there is no way to assign motive. I think the most accurate thing that can be said about this whole issue is that everyone knows that Russia spies on us and we spy on them. Everyone who pays even a little attention knows that both sides are willing to interfere with the other when they can. At least one person, me, believes that one side is much more powerful and has much greater reach and so does more of that. It is also true that every country has cowboy hackers unaffiliated with any government who have hacked sites probably much more secure than that of the DNC. And, every once in a while when we are guided to direct our outrage at Russia and told we must retaliate we should recall that the devious bastard hackers, whoever they are, [and if "hack" is even accurate as opposed to "leak"] did whatever damage they did by releasing actual true information.
Regarding Comey, the prick no doubt did some damage but a hat-tip to PP for directing me/us to Emptywheel where she corrects some misinformation and shows how the big drop by Hillary in the final days may have a completely different reason.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 12/14/2016 - 12:19pm
1) oh yeah, nothing is knowable, just give up
2) the same EW arricle comments admitted the timeframe was wrong to blame the Obamacare rate hikes, sorry to disappoint, but it was Comey
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/14/2016 - 1:03pm
Trump says that Russia was not involved, blaming a 400-pound guy sitting on a couch. The Russians conducted a cyberattack is the final conclusion of the intelligence community. Trump is wrong. We cannot prove intent. But the Russian attack seems to be indisputable..Trump is a useful idiot for Russia.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/14/2016 - 1:16pm
RMRD this by J Chait sums up issues and partisanship of the Russian hackng.
It concludes by noting in the future, any candidate for President, will have to soften their policies related to Russia, or suffer the consequences.
by NCD on Wed, 12/14/2016 - 1:24pm
Comey did not follow the practice set up by the FBI and the DOJ. The DNC gets hacked. At lease 80 voting machines didn't work in Detroit. Anyone who finds these things "strange" is labeled ridiculous by some on the Left. These events need investigation, but we can't trust the Republican Congress or the FBI.
Some on the Left are willing to provide cover for Trump's obvious ties to Russia. Some are also willing to toss the concerns of ethnic minorities aside in a quest for white voters. The first people some on the Left attack are the folks who should be their allies.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/14/2016 - 4:43pm
If and when Congressional committees investigate the possibly of Russian leaks, there will likely be two final reports submitted, one from Republicans, the other from Democrats. Trump and the Republicans will be on one side. The Democrats and the CIA on the other. The only tiebreaker will be if the US gets hit by a terrorist attack because Trump did not.attend a needed briefing. Trump will of course blame the director of national intelligence.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/13/2016 - 6:35pm
Deleted double post.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 12/13/2016 - 2:16pm
There is little likelihood that Trump and the Republicans will spend any time looking into this issue. In the end, we may be left with our respective suspicions. This is not analogous to a murder case.
Edit to add:
Here is the Smerconish interview with Sean Spicer on CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/10/politics/smerconish-spicer-hacked-russian/
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 1:19pm
I take Greenwald's point about the need for evidence and the problem of interagency conflicts playing out in the political theater. But he is the pot calling the kettle black when he denounces political expediency on one hand and then practices it himself to deliver a blow against his bête noire:
" Needless to say, Democrats – still eager to make sense of their election loss and to find causes for it other than themselves [emphasis mine] – immediately declared these anonymous claims about what the CIA believes to be true, and, with a somewhat sweet, religious-type faith, treated these anonymous assertions as proof of what they wanted to believe all along: that Vladimir Putin was rooting for Donald Trump to win and Hillary Clinton to lose and used nefarious means to ensure that outcome."
This emphasis on motivations does not advance the discussion any more than leaping to conclusions does.
by moat on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 1:58pm
There is no reason to trust that Trump and the Republicans will do a through examination of the evidence. The GOP had countless hearings on Benghazi. There will be few on the suspected Russian hack. We know that McConnell objected to making the suspicions public. By obstructing Obama at every turn and investigating Hillary at the drop of a hat while remaining silent on Trump's business conflicts, the Republicans set the stage for the lack of trust in what they say.
The truth could be that Hillary ran a poor campaign and simultaneously the Russians put their thumb on the scales in the election. Trump attends about one daily intelligence brief a week. We now know that he does not trust the intelligence agencies. Many intelligence people report that they have had little or no contact with their incoming counterparts. Hopefully the Trumpsters aren't putting the country's security at risk.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 2:47pm
It's disingenuous, ignoring Trump's own comments about Putin that he then tried to take back. But Greenwald hates Clinton, and it infects anything he writes related to her - sometimes he can be such a putz.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 2:48pm
Myself I incline to the perhaps extreme position that Putin has shit on Trump a mile deep and twenty years back, or at least ten.
That said, may we agree as observers that the "tell" will be the elevation of a Hero of the Soviet Union (or whateverthefuck they are calling it these days that they gave Tillerson) to SecState?
ETA Trump's servers are universally unsecured, as is his doctor's unsupported XP Pro system
by jollyroger on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 3:55pm
And Paul Manacort - his role?
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 3:59pm
I'm sorta getting numb to outrage--I don't see this tsunami of repudiation bearing down on Trump as the populace digests the story. I am sorta beyond hope, I guess....
by jollyroger on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 4:41pm
I do not see that as either a strong or, strictly speaking, a valid criticism of the article. Because Greenwald was attempting to make the case that we do not know anything of substance that we did not know the day before yesterday, I think it fair of him to point out reasons [such as confirmation bias] that reactions to the anonymous allegations are not more thoughtful and why those reactions should be guided by extreme skepticism. Pointing out, or speculating about if you prefer, that confirmation bias and other reasons are now allowing the case to be considered as proven by so many is different from speculating about motive if done in a job of reporting rather than in an essay intended to convince that bad reporting is being done which leads to acceptance as fact of allegations which should be viewed with hefty skepticism at least. I'm just picking at a nit but I think that pointing out why people may have jumped to conclusions is part of pointing out the danger of jumping to conclusions.
My own bias, which has been confirmed a thousand times, is the belief and expectation that authoritative entities within our government will both lie and conceal the truth. They also selectively release factual information and a half truth is often more powerfully damaging than a lie. The reason is often to establish beliefs intended to make us, the American public, accept policies or actions that have actual motives behind them that might otherwise cause us reject them. I understand people getting invested in their feelings and conclusions about what politicians tell them. At one point in my life I was willing, actually trying, to kill people based on believed lies that the government told and the situation that the lies helped to create.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 4:42pm
Pointing to the willingness to accept the report as true because of intense desires to reverse the election result is one thing.
Saying that: " Democrats – still eager to make sense of their election loss and to find causes for it other than themselves " is another.
by moat on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 5:29pm
The reason the be suspicious is that Trump and the Republicans will not investigate the allegations.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 6:32pm
I think you are presuming way too much that there will be a lot of solidarity between the Trump and the GOP. Here you go, one example right off the presses:
Sen. John McCain blasted the likely secretary of state nominee of President-elect Donald Trump Saturday, saying he’s concerned about Exxon Mobil CEO Rex Tillerson’s close ties to Russian President Vladimir Putin.
Right now I am suspecting from these latest developments that it's going to be all chaos all the time unless the rogue Trump drastically changes his act. Nothing will get done, good or bad or inbetween, it will instead be daily distractions just like when campaigns are ongoing.
This is actually why I'm so tempted to jump into discussion right now when my discipline has been so good at staying away the last couple years. If this is what continues to happen, it will truly have radical effects on our political system because some very new political coalitions will start to form. Yes, exciting and frightening at the same time.
by artappraiser on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 7:06pm
deleted duplicate comment
by artappraiser on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 7:42pm
Greenwald seems oddly unconcerned with Comey's July comments ad libbing beyond the evidence, as well as October's comments jumping past 0 evidence. He took opportunity in both cases to smack Obama instead for appointing an anti-privacy guy.
Greenwald doesn't care about evidence - he's just another partisan asshole, though in this case partisan's his own libertarian preferences combined with a pro-privacy obsession and an antiClinton hatred. Probably Putin's outside his worries so suddenly he's an evidence purist, but maybe he's a fanboi too. Anyway, the pamphlet NCD linked to had some valid criticism and questioning of Greenwald's story in the Snowden affair and his boyfriend's poorly handling confidential info, which only provoked Greenwald's pique to proclaim he'd do even worse next time. Brazil sun must be getting to him.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/12/2016 - 10:17am
Speaking of "partisan assholes", is it the partisanship that makes him one?
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 12/12/2016 - 10:32am
No, it's his being a snippy asshole when anyone contradicts him.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/12/2016 - 2:53pm
That's Greenwald's thing. He doesn't just debate the legitimate disagreements. If he disagrees he distorts and lies about the things his opponent said. I saw him do it with Sam Harris. I follow Harris and I know what he writes and talks about. I've read a few of his books as well as his writing on the internet and some of his videos and debates. There's a lot to disagree with in the things he says. But that's not enough for Greenwald. He has to make up what I know to be lies about what Harris has said. I know this because I read what Harris actually said. Once I catch a pundit lying I find it hard to trust anything they say. I mostly stopped reading Greenwald after his false attacks on Harris.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 12/12/2016 - 3:09pm
This headline says mostly what I was trying to say, poorly:
Intel world struggles to crack the code of an untrusting Trump
How do you brief a president who refuses to believe what you tell him?
By Nahal Toosi and Darren Samuelsoh, Politico, 12/10/16 02:06 PM EST
I even went back to the WaPo article to try to figure a hint of who the leaker(s) might have been. Because to me this story seems so much like a trial balloon from the intel community to see how Trump would react, rather than Dem senators trying to stir up things. The terminology used is too vague, i.e., "a senior U.S. official briefed on an intelligence presentation made to U.S. senators", though it slightly suggests an adminstration source over a congressional one. It sort of sounds like the reporters got their secondary confirmation from a congressional source after getting the story from an administration source.
by artappraiser on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 6:10pm
The emerging media meme:
Tensions erupt between Trump and the CIA over Russia's hacking during the 2016 campaign
By Brian Bennett reporting from Washington, Los Angeles Times, Dec. 10
by artappraiser on Sat, 12/10/2016 - 7:34pm