MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
And some wonder why Democrats keep losing.
Comments
Hal, the Republican Party is actively working to destroy things Obama did on health care, the environment, women's rights, immigration.etc. They are actively engaging in voter suppression. I think you and others might want to pay attention to the GOP assaults on programs the guy who sold out to Wall Street put in place.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 10:40am
Don't you think Obama should be the one leading the charge right now to protect his legacy? Don't you find it remarkably dispiriting that he is not?
by HSG on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 1:31pm
see new comment on the Health Insurance thread:
http://dagblog.com/comment/242898#comment-242898
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 1:35pm
Do you think the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is the best place for President Obama to lead the charge to protect his legacy? Do you think it would be more effective if he spoke to people in the small and medium-sized towns and in the cities where he generated so much excitement and hope in 2008 that he would deliver genuine change? Don't you think he's sending at best, with his Wall Street speeches and before the very wealthiest and most influential people in the world at Gates, very mixed messages about his commitment to social change and economic justice? Do you blame millions for looking elsewhere for inspiration?
by HSG on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 1:49pm
If it's OK with him,it's OK with me. He's paid his dues and if he thinks he's more effective in Gatesland than Youngstown I tend to think he's our leading expert on when to play the Obama card.
In front of "the most influential people in the world " doesn't seem like an odd choice.
Conversely Bernie is just right for a rally at the corner of Maple and Pleasant . "Horses for courses".
And a word about Wall Streeters. Prick them, doth they not bleed ? I expect they voted for Hillary,if any one has contrary information I'd be interested. Conversely in Detroit she ran 70,000 votes behind Obama 12.. And in March the Trump campaign won the David Ogilvy Award for a clip from the 2008 Democratic primary of Michele criticizing Hillary.
One post featured Hillary's 1996 remark about "super predators who had to be brought "to heel". See Sue Halpern ,New York Review, June 8th.
Maybe we lost because of Comey.Or maybe we would have lost anyway because they were smarter.
For starters,I expect they didn't post attacks on Wall Streeters,
by Flavius on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 12:11am
Do you think the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is the best place for President Obama to lead the charge to protect his legacy?
I think it's more than an okay place for him to give a speech.
Do you think it would be more effective if he spoke to people in the small and medium-sized towns and in the cities where he generated so much excitement and hope in 2008 that he would deliver genuine change?
No. He's not running for office anymore. He's not president anymore. He's not the head of the party. He can't promise anything. But because he held the most powerful office in the world for two terms, he can affect the thinking and analysis of other powerful people.
Don't you think he's sending at best, with his Wall Street speeches and before the very wealthiest and most influential people in the world at Gates, very mixed messages about his commitment to social change and economic justice?
It's the powerful that need speaking to. They need their thoughts challenged by people like Bill and Melinda Gates and Barack Obama. By the way, I've never thought of him as particularly interested in "economic justice". Who said that he was? Social change, yeah, but that's always in the eye of the beholder.
Do you blame millions for looking elsewhere for inspiration?
No. Again, he's no longer running for office, people interested in political candidates should definitely be looking elsewhere!
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 12:54am
What I find dispiriting is that the country has gone crazy. Obama has a legacy that the Republicans are trying to destroy. Instead of dealing with that stark reality, we pretend that the problem is Obama. The voting public gave the electoral vote to Trump. That is dispiriting. The reason Democrats lose is because the voting public is gullible. People didn't realize that their health care was Obamacare. People who watch Fox N eww are clueless about the Russian investigation. The voting public didn't care that they were voting is a racist, yet chafe whennTrump's racism is pointed. They squeal "Why are you suggesting I'm racist just because I voted for a guy loved by David Duke and other white supremacists?".
Instead of focus how to inspire the whites, blacks, Latinos, Asians, etc. who make up the Democratic base, we attack Obama or Hillary. Sanders has been in the Senate for decades and hasn't done crap. Elizabeth Warren made more inroads in protecting citizens than Sanders ever did. Sanders can promote single-payer because Obama got Obamacare passed. With Obamacare under seize, single- payer is a shiny ball that can be thrown by some Democrsts. Single payer is mentioned because Obama, not Sanders got Obamacare. Left to Sanders, we would have attempted to do single-payer first and because financing would not have been able to be worked out, tens of millions would still be without health insurance. I am dispirited because some cannot address reality.
The country is under siege.Most Democrats don't give a rat's ass about speaking fees. Obama was elected twice. Hillary got three million more votes than Trump.Instead of blasting Obama, attack the GOP. Instead of talking identity politics, Democrats should be doing heavy outreach to there base among whites and minorities.
What is dispiriting is that there has been no real outreach to minority communities. That needs to be done now. Reach out to the whites who already vote Democratic. Reach out to Democratic Latinos and Asians.Obama is not the problem. Hillary is not the proble. There is a voting block that will stick with Trump even if he shot someone on Faith Avenue in NYC. The small number of folks who will abandon Trump will still despise Democrats. The defectors will be angry that Trump was not hard enough on immigrants or women (Title IX), or transgender bathrooms. The folks who abandon Trump won't be Democrats.
Obama's legacy is intact to rational people. Taking focus off the real problem is as I said dispiriting.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 2:41pm
Oh, FFS! Who cares if he spends some of his time giving talks to Wall Street? Bernie's litmus test for purity is more jealousy than sensible. Maybe he is telling Wall Street things that they need to hear, like for example:
For businesses that want to relocate and bring smart people with them, recruitment will depend on good schools, good infrastructure, a population that has pride and hope. So unless those with the $ are willing to part with it for the greater good, this country will not be able to compete.
I don't KNOW what his speeches are about, but neither do you.
by CVille Dem on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 3:41pm
At a time when Trump and republicans are destroying traditions and norms there comes the question of what traditions and norms democrats should still honor. There's a norm that ex-presidents not use their media and political capital to attack their successor. Carter didn't push his policy against Reagan, Bush didn't attack Clinton, Clinton didn't go after Bush 2, and Bush 2 didn't spend his post presidency speaking out against Obama. You're now suggesting that Obama break with that decades long tradition and campaign for his policy legacy against Trump. In the age of Trump and a radical right wing republican party I'm not sure what is the right path for democrats in choosing which traditions and norms to break or uphold. But let us at least acknowledge that if Obama decided to be the one leading the charge to protect his legacy that it would be absolutely unprecedented for at least the last half dozen ex-presidents of both parties.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 6:09pm
Well, Cheney and his vicious spawn didn't comply with that tradition, so we have a sterling example of broken precedence by someone who also didn't mind jumping the line to get a kid's heart.
I think Obama should do what he is doing. Give speeches where he explains what is going on and the facts that back them up. I guess Hal wants him to call trump a loser and a popular vote pipsqueak, but that would just be out of character, and beneath him. Cheney did his best to trash Obama, but only the base cared (or listened to him).
Hillary is brave, as always, and is calling out the BS meter on a daily basis.
by CVille Dem on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 7:04pm
I would just point out a cavaet: that people seem to forget when they focus on analyzing the 2016 race alone that Obama won the presidency twice doing the cosmopolitan thing as opposed to the populist thing.
And I would add that I myself, as an Independent, would tend to believe this: A spokesman said he gives speeches “true to his values.” So if I heard other Democratic leaders who did not consider him an enemy of their values when he was president decry him for the same thing now, I would question their sincerity. I.E., if my own Senator Chuck Schumer starting talking anti-Wall-Street tomorrow, I would tend not to believe him and lose respect for him for that reason.
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 10:54am
P.S. At this point in time, my general sense is that the strongest get-out-the-vote motivator in elections of the near future will be anti-Trump anything. Things could change, but I think now that outside of the (now rare) solid Trump districts, anyone countering anything Trump sold in his campaign will be preferred and will bring out voters that neglected to vote in 2016. Pandering to anything Trump sold in his campaign will be very dangerous. And "Wall Street" is already there, giving money to Dem candidates and supporting the "Dems" currently left in the cabinet, literally cheering when one of the populists was kicked out. If I were a Dem candidate, I would think: turning down Wall St. money is looking a gift horse in the mouth.
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 11:22am
What if Schumer gave the following speech in front of the Capitol:
-------------
In the past I have often taken positions that my constituents who manage powerful Wall Street institutions urged me to take. I did this for a variety of reasons, including their very generous contributions to my campaigns. But I also tended to believe or was able to persuade myself into believing that these positions were best for the people of New York State and the nation as a whole.
It is important to realize how compelling messages delivered by billionaires in corporate boardrooms can be. Spending time in beautiful homes in East Hampton and triplexes on Park Avenue is a very heady experience and I was seduced. Willingly happily seduced.
But, as Senate Minority Leader (and I stress minority), I now preside over the rubble of the Democratic Party in the wake of the 2016 elections. I have no choice but to consider the fact that more than half the country is living paycheck to paycheck and is doing no better than their grandparents were 45 years ago. I see the anger and resentment that dog Wall Street Democrats like Hillary Clinton. At the same time, I see the support and excitement that independent populists like Bernie Sanders generate.
In light of these facts, I have decided that I was wrong to hew so closely to the wishes of my Wall Street benefactors. Accordingly, as of today, I will not solicit nor will I take one penny from any Wall Street bundler or PAC. Likewise, I will not accept contributions in excess of $2,000 from any donor. Going forward, I will be working closely with Senators Senators and Warren on ways to redistribute wealth from the gamblers and sharpers on Wall Street to hard-working Americans across the country.
------------
Would you still tend not to believe him and lose respect for him?
by HSG on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 1:44pm
No, but I lose more respect every day for Bernie and his supporters for being goody-two-shoes, negative, pouty, and beyond naive. Bernie, who is not and has never been a Democrat should STFU about what is wrong with Dems. Also, Schumer shouldn't and wouldn't make such a ridiculous statement. He is actually pretty smart.
By the way, Hillary is NOT a "Wall Street Democrat," (Bernie's poison continues to leech out) and Bill and Melinda's charity does good work. Obama has started a foundation to train and encourage young people to learn about government and to run for office. I'm sure you also will nit-pick that to death as well, because there are things you decide he could do to better use his time.
Edited to correct spelling
by CVille Dem on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 4:44pm
Focus on the important stuff. The rest will be rehashed til the cows come home.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 5:00pm
Oh, you're just jealous because I look younger than my years. Well, my sister does too. We have good jeans (sic). Get over it!!!!!
by CVille Dem on Wed, 09/20/2017 - 6:37pm
And daddy's car - a convertible even...
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 12:03am
If he gave that speech, wouldn't even matter what I think, as I am sure he would no longer be the Senator from New York. Maybe that kind of thing plays in Vermont, but not New York. Not in the city and not upstate.
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 12:47am
If he came out dressed in sack cloth and periodically dumped ashes on his head would you like the speech better? Just wondering how that would play in New York because Hal would likely want to see it done that way.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 1:01am
Impossible except maybe on one day of the year: Yom Kippur. The guy has an ego, and he's actually very like a lot of Wall St. guys, a real "operator", no coincidence he can schmooze Trump. You know who would do that if it would help him get elected? His predecessor, Al D'Amato, ":Senator Pothole", he had no shame and no scruples, he'd do anything if it would benefit him.
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 1:20am
The standard assessment of Al went like this:
If you asked Moynihan for help in getting a Visa you got a fascinating analysis of our Visa policy, it's recent history and probable evolution.
If you asked D'Amato for help you got a Visa.
by Flavius on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 9:36am
P.S. You seem have a very strange view of positions like Minority Leader and Majority Leader. They are not supposed to be ideological leaders, their position is to help make sausage from a group of representatives within the same party but from very different populations. Not to lead ideologically, but to find coalitions on issues where they can be made. The ideology sales job applies only to their own constituents. They are still mostly responsible to represent their constituents. Running for president? Different story.
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 1:04am
This guy?
SCHUMER: "LEAVE THE BANKIES ALOOONE...."http://dagblog.com/reader-blogs/chuck-schumer-leave-bankies-alooone-10503
by jollyroger on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 2:55pm
You continue to believe that Sanders political positions are the ones the democrats should embrace when almost everyone here disagrees with you. Are we not democrats? Don't we represent factions in the democratic party? In spite of Sanders attacks on Hillary over taking money from Wall Street she still quite convincingly beat him. Yet you believe it's a winning issue. The Sanders faction of the democratic party does not represent the majority of democrats.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 1:26am
What I can't believe is that he can't see that populism will no longer be popular after Trump gets done with it. Arta's crystal ball sez the next president is definitely going to be elite and maybe even effete, definitely not salt of the earth.
Sure, some more socialist type safety net stuff could come with a more Dem Congress, including remake of the health care system. But anti Wall-Street? Nah! That's over, died with Occupy Wall St., much less Trump turning everything upside down. Not with all the boomers retiring and living off IRA's. Bannon/Breitbart is where Wall St. is the enemy, because they are globalists.
Who believes "MAGA" isolationism is the future after what we've seen since Jan. 20? No way.
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 2:40am
Democrats lose because they would rather attack other Democrats instead of fighting Republicans. About 35-40% of the country is comfortable with Trump despite his racism and stupidity on f
oreign affairseverything. Sean Spicer was willing to lie to the American people in return for a paycheck. The response is to make the guy a star during the Emmys. Obama is bad, but let's welcome Spicey,he's so funny. Democrats lose because they only go after the jugular when it's another Democrat. Hillary is evil, Spicey's such a kidder. Pathetic.Edit to add:
Spicey told GMA that he never "knowingly" lied to the American public.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/spicer-claims-never-knowingly-lied_u...
Spicey was very hostile to Politico's Mike Allen obtains details of notes Spicer took while attending meetings in the White House.
That Spicey is a laugh riot.
To be clear it was a group of Democratic-leaning voters willing to give Spicer a pass
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/19/james-corden-admits-disappoin...
http://www.vulture.com/2017/09/sean-spicer-emmy-awards-stephen-colbert.html
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 10:18am
Hal is outraged about Wall Street speeches again. Democrats doomed. In a country where money is speech, and everything has a price, even truth, facts and alt-facts, Obama earns a small amount of cash to do good things.
Calls for "Outrage!!"
Wolraich similarly said something about some Wall Street speech destroying the Party months ago.
Meanwhile Trump is moving to study drilling in the Arctic Refuge, and not a peep from Hal.
Who never admitted he was wrong attacking Obama's 3D chess move to drive Shell out of the Arctic,which Hal attacked O for in this blog, not grasping the issue.
If someone cared about drilling in the arctic, perhaps they would attack Trump about those drilling plans.
Reality is not important. Irreversible results, damage, actions, facts, real outrages can be ignored. Purity alone is tantamount for the opposition Party which controls no branch of government, while the majority Party is the least pure and most corrupt in modern history.
If someone really cared about the direction of the nation, one would think they would be criticizing Republicans, not Democrats.
by NCD on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 11:22am
Amen.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 12:09pm
Why waste time criticizing Republicans for not being the kind of Democrat we would like them to be. It is different aspects of the Democratic Party that many Democrats, potential Democratic voters, and many who are ex-Democrat but Republican opponents, feel strongly should change. The various examples would mostly be in areas where the Party and its leaders have become more like the Republicans. That includes but is hardly limited to sucking up to Wall Street, IMO.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 12:49pm
Come on, Trump is rolling back programs Obama put in place
Financial regulations
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/03/business/dealbook/trump-congress-fina...
Transparency regulations on oil companies
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/319488-trump-signs-repeal-o...
Cutting corporate taxes
https://www.inc.com/associated-press/paul-ryan-corporate-tax-cut-20-perc...
Withdrawing from Paris climate accord
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/politics/gary-cohn-climate-paris-trump/ind...
The above was what I found with a single click on Google.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 1:07pm
In recent surveys 41% of democrats call themselves moderates and 43% call themselves liberal. This is quite astonishing that liberals have reclaimed the word. For about a decade it seemed like I was the only one willing to call myself a liberal as most liberals called themselves progressives when the republicans successfully demonized the word. Yet the democratic party is evenly divided between moderates and liberals, more if we define factions such as far left liberals or liberal moderates and conservative moderates etc. We're going to have to find some accommodation between those divides to survive as a party and win elections. Purity tests from the Sanders or far left faction won't lead to compromise or accommodation between the various factions that make up the democratic party. Or the democrats can divide into two parties, a liberal and a moderate party, and neither will ever win an election again.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 2:46pm
Thanks for the commonsense LULU.
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 6:22pm
1) I'm somewhat outraged but really I'm very disappointed. I put far too much hope into the notion that Obama represented real change. I'm also angry because President Obama's selfishness is clearly hurting the Democratic brand.
2) You consider $400K for a one hour speech a "small amount of cash?" I congratulate you.
3) You pooh-pooh the notion that high-priced speeches by party leaders like President Obama and First Lady Clinton to Wall Street fat cats hurts the Democratic Party. I think you are very very wrong on this. Briefly, they make it that much more difficult for Democrats to make the case that their primary concern is the poor, workers, and the middle-class as opposed to the financial elites.
4) Shell's decision not to drill in the Arctic had absolutely nothing to do with President Obama whose administration upheld the 2008 sale of drilling rights to Shell and then approved its test well plans two years ago. Any idea that President Obama's 3-D chess led to Shell's subsequent decision not to move forward runs up against the following: A) Shell's explanation for abandoning its Arctic drilling plan does not include anything President Obama did or didn't do. B) Last summer, the Obama administration approved more oil drilling in the Arctic. C) The Obama administration's decision in 2014 to decrease the percentage of energy that we generate from biofuels as opposed to fossil fuels belies any commitment to a clean green energy future.
5) "Purity" is a buzz word now among moderate Dems. They insist that progressives irrationally demand purity from Democrats. In fact, many of the moderate Dems are the ones insisting on purity. They want a pure commitment to the Democratic establishment. They are incensed that progressives didn't fall in line behind Hillary Clinton from mid-2015 on. They attacked Bernie Sanders for supporting a Nebraska Democrat who had not been sufficiently pure when it came to abortion rights. Odd since these same Democrats had nothing but praise for Hillary's vice-Presidential pick. What progressives are saying is that because Democrats have repeatedly betrayed working and middle-class Americans, they are losing elections. That has nothing to do with purity.
6) Some moderate dems seem to think that attacking Trump is what's necessary to win in 2018 and 2020. They must have slept through 2016. All Hillary did was attack Trump. Democrats must champion policies that will energize the base and attract independents.
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 6:21pm
It's your opinion that giving a speech to Wall Street hurts the democratic brand. It's been thoroughly discussed here and I think it's clear it only bothers the small Sanders faction of the party.
More and more environmentalists have come to the conclusion that biofuels are not part of the clean energy future. While there might be a possibility that algae based biofuels could with further technological advances be viable, corn ethanol will never be a viable or environmentally sound solution. When up front carbon costs are factored in corn ethanol releases as much or more CO2 as fossil fuels. The subsidies for corn ethanol have resulted in hundreds of thousands more acres of corn planted, mostly in degraded and rocky soil unfit for planting without those subsidies. This poor soil needs large amounts of chemical fertilizers and pesticides to force growth and are more prone to agricultural run off that pollutes streams. My complaint isn't that Obama decreased the program but that he didn't end it entirely.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 4:11pm
A small number of irate independents and progressives can decide elections one way or the other. In any case, although I haven't found any polls on this particular issue, I believe the offensive odor of corruption hangs over the party and can be smelled by many more than just a handful of hyper-sensitive cupcakes.
I am hardly a biofuels fan. But that's not the point is it. The point is that after lobbying by the Carlyle Group the administration revised a policy to benefit self-same group and now Obama is getting paid by Carlyle. Maybe there's no connection whatsoever between the quid and the pro but the optics stink and optics, per Hillary, were a major problem for her.
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 6:26pm
Perhaps you're right. If Hillary hadn't taken any Wall Street money instead of beating Sanders in 34 states she'd likely have beaten him in 40 or 45 states.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 6:33pm
That same flawed misdirection defense was old and should have been understood by everybody as bullshit the first time it appeared here. There is an absolute difference between money given to a campaign and money given to a campaigner to put into his or her pocket. If Hillary had not taken Wall Street campaign money she would have had way less than the billion she spent on her losing effort. Remember your outrage at the citizen's United decision? If she hadn't taken Wall Street money that she put in her pocket to the tune of millions she might not have been seen by so many as being in the pocket of Wall Street and she might have, probably would have, won her election. It is true, perceptions count, even if she is as uninfluenced by those millions as apparently only she can be believed to be.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 7:45pm
Much more importantly, if Hillary hadn't 1) taken all that Wall Street money for a few speeches and 2) refused to divulge the content of the speeches then maybe/probably Trump wouldn't be in a position to do all the damage that he is doing and that you rightly decry.
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 9:13pm
Oh, no. Because you would have held her feet to the fire in the same way you are still doing. Grow Up! Get over it! And get out of the Democratic Party, while you're at it! You hold it to the same level of contempt that your hero, the ineffectual Bernie does. What a winning meme.
by CVille Dem on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 9:28pm
With an election so close that 78 thousand votes over three states would have tipped the electoral college to Hillary a good case can be made for any reason. Could be lower black voter turn out too. An even better case can be made that if Sanders hadn't fought Hillary right to the convention when he was clearly the loser she would have won. I talked to Sanders supporters who were hoping the super delegates would overturn the popular vote and give the nomination to him. But then, Sanders has always and still talks pie in the sky and fools believe him. We laugh at Trump voters who believed him when he said coal jobs were coming back. "How could they be so stupid to believe that," we say. That's exactly how I see Sanders and his supporters. There will not be any single payer health care. I think Sanders knows that too. He's just playing his supporters for fools same as Trump.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 10:00pm
Good comment. Point 5 stands out.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 4:11pm
Of all Hal's points point 5 stands out as the most ignorant and deceptive. Kaine and Mello's action on abortion cannot be more different. While Kaine has expressed his personal opposition to abortion due to his catholic faith he's committed to choice as a policy and has a 100% pro-choice voting record. Mello has voted for several anti-choice laws. He voted to require a physician to be present during an abortion [which is designed to make medical abortions via RU-486 more complicated] and against insurance coverage of abortion; in 2010 he voted to prohibit abortions after 20 weeks and he voted for screening requirements to make sure a woman getting an abortion had provided fully informed consent; and in 2009 he voted in yes on ultrasound legislation.
Oh, and by the way, The idea that "Democrats had nothing but praise for Hillary's vice-Presidential pick" is just
another liemore spin from Hal. There was a lot of disappointment and discussion about Kaine from Hillary supporters. We came to accept him in part because of his pro-choice voting record.Do you think it's "odd" that democrats accepted Kaine with his 100% pro-choice voting record despite his personal objection to abortion but would not accept Mello with his several anti-choice votes? It seems very straight forward and understandable to me.
I'm sure a person as well read as Hal knows all this but he constantly
liesspins to push his political agenda. You I think are likely clueless about this and were taken in by his spin.by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 5:08pm
As is common with your sweeping condemnations you attack one point out of a bunch and, whether your attack holds water or not, you think you have convincingly refuted everything it was a part of. I think Hal made a good point about which factions were demanding "purity".
And by the way, it has become sop around here to acknowledge when l edits are made to comments.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 5:29pm
I have no idea what Hal meant by, " They want a pure commitment to the Democratic establishment." Consequently I don't find the point debatable. I also don't know what he meant by, "They are incensed that progressives didn't fall in line behind Hillary Clinton from mid-2015 on." If you or he want to explain or elaborate on it I'll debate it. The only point he made that had sufficient substance to challenge was his point on Mello's anti-abortion votes as compared to Kaine's pro-choice votes. And you, as usual, declined to address it. Did my comment hold water or not?
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 6:10pm
It most certainly did not.
Here's what Ohio Democratic Congressman Tim Ryan had to say:
Per the Nation:
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 6:34pm
After voting yes on five anti-abortion laws prior to 2012 it's hard to see what more Nebraska could have done short of banning abortion. Planned Parenthood is more forgiving than I. If Mello had worked to overturn the laws he helped pass I might have trusted his possible change of heart. But my comment addressed your claim that it was "odd" that democrats supported Kaine but not Mello. I think my reasoning that explained it was sound. Which is likely why you declined to address it.
It all comes down to priorities. You prioritize getting paid for a speech to Wall Street and don't seem to care much about a women's right to choose. I prioritize a women's right to choose and don't care much about paid Wall Street speeches.
eta: By the way, Tim Ryan also voted for anti-abortion legislation. It wasn't until 2015 he decided he was pro-choice.
So I'm not too surprised you decided to quote him.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 7:13pm
So you impose purity tests on Democratic candidates and yet you attack progressives for allegedly imposing purity tests. Makes sense.
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 8:58pm
Your comment more than held water. I consider myself a Liberal Democrat, but I also consider myself a realist. Hillary pushed Universal health care in the 90's and learned that she couldn't get there from where we were at the time. After Obamacare, if Hillary had been elected, problems would have been addressed and solved, and the progress towards actual, doable improvements would have ushered in. She suggested gradually lowering the age for Medicare coverage, beginning with those 60-65, with a plan to eventually include everyone.
I think that is liberal. Does it take longer than Bernie's "Medicare for All?" Actually, no, because Bernie's ideas are hopeless in this environment. At least a gradual improvement is better than the complete rat-fuc* that we have coming our way even if this latest bill doesn't pass. Because the GOP will continue to sabotage what remains of Obamacare.
Hal's insulting comment that the "Buzzword, 'purity'" is used by moderate Democrats to put Bernie down. But he has no compunction about comparing Tim Kaine to Mello about abortion. Tim Kaine is my Senator. He is very intelligent, bilingual, and pro-choice. I said that here when many were skeptical of him (understandably because they didn't know him).
Millions more people voted against trump than voted for him, but this bunch in Congress is intentionally voting for a flawed, toxic law because they promised that to the minority who voted for trump (who had no clue how "repeal and replace" would affect them and their loved ones.)
But Hal chews on the desiccated bone that anyone who mixes with powerful and wealthy people are tainted. Bill and Melinda Gates? Avoid them because they're wealthy! If he wants to keep slapping himself in the face over this frustration that Bernie is a lost cause who never accomplished anything except riling a bunch of youngsters up, fine with me. But I wish he would leave the Democratic Party alone because his hero is not, and has never been a Democrat/
by CVille Dem on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 7:06pm
Somehow being realistic with policy objectives is proof you're not liberal while supporting a single payer plan without any provisions to pay for it that would never pass in a democratic congress in a republican controlled congress is proof of your liberal bona fides.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 7:42pm
CVille - I don't want Republicans to win elections. It's not just that it's wrong and unseemly for Obama and Clinton to take money from bad actors who have taken with both hands from hard-working and long-suffering Americans. They are also making it more likely that Democrats will keep losing and Republicans will keep winning.
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 9:11pm
Well, I'm not convinced. As long as the republicans win and continue to screw over the country, and threaten our planet and every country within it, you can still gripe about how it is all Democrat's fault. So I think your actions (words) speak louder than your [fake] words. Your entire identity depends on republicans winning.
by CVille Dem on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 9:43pm
You just don't get how pissed off voters are that democrats are taking money from Wall Street. Obama took more money from Wall Street than McCain so they voted for, ah... Obama. Then they were so pissed that Obama took more Wall Street money than Romney that they voted for... Obama. Convinced now that taking money from Wall Street is the reason Hillary lost?
by ocean-kat on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 10:08pm
Hal says things like "Trump wouldn't be in a position to do all the damage that he is doing and that you rightly decry" and "I don't want Republicans to win elections".
Yet he virtually never blogs about "the damage" or the Republicans doing it.
He also dumped on Obama when he was President, and still is doing so now.
The objective seems to be an almost authoritarian purge of the Democratic Party.
Damage be damned in the interim, it serves the revolutionary cause.
by NCD on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 10:11pm
I understand the temptation to make this personal. Hal thinks this. Hal believes that. But really this website is (or should be) about ideas. We should be debating ideas not personal failings. You are free to criticize Republicans all you like. I often do as well. But I believe strongly that the way to defeat them is through a unified pro-people pro-peace Democratic Party. I also believe I have made a very persuasive case for this position.
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 10:16pm
Why aren't you convinced? Do you really believe the Republicans are in complete control despite the fact that Democrats are consistently acting in the people's best interests?
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 10:13pm
Thanks.
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 6:21pm
Where's your blog on Trump and the Arctic Refuge Hal?
As your agenda does not include what is actually happening in America and it's government, I can frankly not bother arguing about the rest of your biased diatribe.
I will also stick with believing the oil industry website below on Obama and Shell.
Obama administration delivers big blow to Shell’s Arctic drilling plans
by NCD on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 5:08pm
We have a year until the midterms. Democrats have to focus on energizing their base. Trump voters and hardcore Bernie Sanders supporters will not be involved in the process of activating the base.,
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 5:29pm
Actually, Bernie Sanders, Nina Turner, and other progressives have been doing their utmost to energize the base. Hillary Clinton and her supporters are busy attacking that base.
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 8:59pm
Hal. Please give examples of Hillary attacking the Democratic base (which is 50-50 liberal-moderate). Please cite sources, and explain how you define the base to which you refer (Berniebots are NOT the base). Please include a paragraph or two of your interpretations of the cited articles.
Your words are so disingenuous, which I think I can say without a TSO warning. Frankly, I would label them with other descriptors if I were not concerned about that.
by CVille Dem on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 9:39pm
Hillary's book has many passages attacking Bernie Sanders and so-called "Berniebros." You can argue all you want that they're not the Democratic base but the percentage of Bernie's supporters who voted for her over Trump is significantly higher than the percentage of her supporters who voted for Obama in 2008. In fact, Bernie's primary voters are the Democratic base.
Hillary claims that women who didn't support her were accommodating their fathers or other men. Aren't women often called the Democratic base?
White working-class voters were once the base of the Democratic Party. Now, they're deplorables.
She also rips into Joe Biden and President Obama.
Indeed, the Washington Post claims that she is tougher on Biden than on Sanders in What Happened. Wouldn't you call Joe Biden the Democratic base?
She calls out President Obama for not taking the threat of Trump seriously enough and telling her not to attack Bernie Sanders. Would you call President Obama the Democratic base?
She blames the DNC for not giving her good data.
So basically she blames everybody, with one glaring exception, for her loss.
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 10:46pm
Your examples are ludicrous. In the citation about Hillary 'accommodating' the men in their lives, the only "proof' of that was spoken by another person, Sheryl Sandburg,
Hillary's comments on this were about women's rights not being the priority of young women. I agree with her. Young women don't realize how close they are to losing their rights.
Hillary's accurate criticisms of Bernie are interpreted by you as "attacking the base" of a party to which he doesn't belong.
You know as well as everyone that the 'basket of deplorables' comment was aimed at the hateful white supremacists that showed up at trumps rallies. If she had reached out to that bunch you would have said she was pandering.
This is an ATTACK on Biden?
Her comments about Obama's choice not to address the nation about the known efforts of Russia to influence the election in trump's favor. I have the same criticism. This was huge and it didn't see the light of day until it was too late. McConnel telling Obama not to do anything about it should have told him all he needed to know about what was the right thing to do.
So, I find your lame arguments about Hillary Clinton attacking the Democratic base as disingenuous as the rest of your words. Your last sentence is an example of your inability to be objective. She acknowledges her errors and mistakes, but also notes others who affected the election, and gave us trump. That is why her book is selling so well. We want to hear, in her voice, her take on the election.
Edited to add one sentence
by CVille Dem on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 8:44am
CVille - Clinton "explained" why many young women didn't vote for her by referencing Sheryl Sandberg's statement that they wouldn't have empathy for her because they'd be under pressure from men not to. Clinton is saying that she agrees with Sandberg that such women did not vote rationally. Indeed, she is rejecting out-of-hand the notion that they might have had any legitimate reasons for not being inspired by her. That is clearly an attack. It also tracks perfectly Gloria Steinem's dismissive reaction when it was pointed out to her that a majority of women under 30 preferred Sanders. Steinem, as you know, said that they were going where the boys are.
Regarding the attacks on Bernie's supporters, Clinton said:
As I noted previously, the percentage of Bernie's primary voters who voted for her in the general election was higher than the percentage of her primary voters in 2008 who voted for Barack Obama. Bernie's backers are the Democratic base.
You are free of course not to perceive Hillary's criticisms as attacks. But calling them ludicrous examples, well we'll have to agree to disagree on what's ludicrous.
Okay, this is my last comment on this thread. Enjoy the weekend!
by HSG on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 11:17am
What percent of Bernie's backers "pounding on her" were actually Russian bots on the internet? A serious question that at some point should be acknowledged. Did they use special messaging to get young women dissatisfied with Clinton?
Gloria Steinem actually apologized for her comment. Killer Mike just said he was "taken out of context" because he was just quoting a "feminist" who said the cringeworthy ‘A uterus doesn’t qualify you to be president of the United States. You have to be — you have to have policy that’s reflective of social justice.’ Why exactly Steinem needed to apologize but the millennial "feminist" didn't, I've no fucking clue. Imagine I'd said "being black" or "being a Jew" or "being gay doesn't qualify you to be president". But we can just dismiss women all day long in nasty as fuck terms and it's pretty copacetic.
As for noting that Biden was out campaigning for her & talking about jobs in those disgruntled white heartland states, well, it's hard to see how that's a rough attack or even an attack, just contradicting his contention re: her jobs messaging. Certainly I've had much much worse things to say about Biden, especially floating a death bed message from his son in an attempt to get himself drafted to run? Pretty arrogant unethical trickery.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 2:41pm
How do you define the democratic base? Clearly all registered democrats and independents who usually vote democratic aren't the base so some democrats are part of the base and some are not. How you define the base would determine who is included and who is excluded. One common definition is that the base is made up of those groups that a majority consistently votes every two years for the democratic party.
Some suggest democratic primary voters make up the base. Democratic primary voters vote consistently every two years in both primaries and general elections for democrats and are 30 to 45% of those who vote democratic in general elections.
Neither of these definitions would specifically define or include Sanders supporters as the democratic base though some Sanders supporters would probably be included in other groups as part of the base. In these definitions of the democratic base many Sanders supporters would not be included as part of the base. In fact in both of these definitions a majority of the base would be made up of those who didn't support or vote for Sanders.
So how is it that you define the democratic base such that it includes the vast majority of Sanders supporters while excluding the vast majority of those who did not support or vote for him?
by ocean-kat on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 3:36pm
I think it's obvious that attacking 1) all women who didn't vote for her, 2) Sanders primary voters, 3) working-class voters, 4) the establishment DNC, 5) Vice President Biden, and 6) President Obama, is attacking the Democratic base. You are obviously free to disagree. Regardless, can we agree that her attacks are divisive and harmful to the party she claims to love.
by HSG on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 3:38pm
Do you find Bernie Sanders comments about Democrats unifying messages?
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 3:53pm
To which particular statements are you referring?
by HSG on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 3:55pm
This is just a dumb ass attack on Hillary which is your MO and doesn't even attempt to define what you mean by the democratic base. All women who didn't vote for Hillary are part of the base? Most of the women who didn't vote for her are republicans and voted for Trump. Female republicans who voted for Trump are part of the democratic base? Sanders primary voters automatically are part of the base? Why? Just because Hillary "attacked" them? Everyone who Hillary "attacked" is automatically the democratic base? The establishment DNC is part of the base? If so Sanders supporters are a minority faction of the base as the vast majority of the DNC establishment supported Hillary and disliked Sanders. I guess we could include Biden and Obama as part of the base. They both supported Hillary and disliked Sanders.
You'll never define what you mean by the democratic base because any rational definition would exclude many Sanders supporters and include mostly those who did not support Sanders in the primary.
But you will continue to attack and slander Hillary. The defining characteristic common to Sanders supporters and Trump supporters is an intense abiding hatred of Hillary.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 5:16pm
Hal, I refuted every one of your points, and your constant and flimsy repetitions do not make them any more factual.
by CVille Dem on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 4:03pm
can we agree that her attacks are divisive and harmful to the party she claims to love.
I haven't read the book yet and I'll guess you haven't either. All you're doing is going to biased articles that cherry pick quotes from the book to attack Hillary. I could do the same, go to biased articles that cherry pick quotes to praise Hillary. I don't see much value in that. I'll wait until I read the book.
But here's a fact. Book sales for Sanders Our Revolution have been lackluster while book sales for What Happened have been robust, the biggest first week sales for a non fiction book since 2012. The fact is that large numbers of people want to read what Hillary has to say and few are interested in what Sanders wrote. That must be a tough fact for you to swallow.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 4:28pm
The Fuelfix article to which you cite and which criticizes President Obama for allegedly delivering a "big blow to Shell's Arctic drilling plans" is dated June 30, 2015. Three weeks later, the Obama administration cleared the way for Shell to start drilling in the Arctic Ocean.
Again, I note that the only source that supports your claim that Obama somehow stopped oil drilling in the Arctic by allowing it is a fuel industry website. Alaska's Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski called approval of the permit "good news for Alaska and our country." Apparently you agree.
by HSG on Thu, 09/21/2017 - 9:09pm
March 2016: "But it’s not clear that the reserves would ever be tapped. Last year, Royal Dutch Shell announced it had ended all Arctic drilling after spending more than $7 billion on a single exploratory well. The low cost of oil, it said, simply made pursuing those reserves economically unfeasible."
So we're arguing about Obama clearing the way for doing what Shell had already figured out they wouldn't do? This is insane. Doesn't anyone have anything better to do?
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 9:52am
Fueled by several glass of Tavola I was trying to induce our third hand TV to show the results of the Middlesex County DA election.
Watched with fading interest by a room full of guests. Occasionally a clear picture, which disappeared either of its own accord or because I tried to improve it with one more jiggle of the dial.
Finally one guest: "he's got it". To which a cynic replied "As if he cares".
by Flavius on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 10:28am
What I don't get is why "Democratic leaders" should be "outraged" at Obama clearly being what he has always been: a strong believer in capitalism. He strongly reiterated his beliefs in an essay in the Economist Oct. 16: "The Way Ahead."
He never tried to fool the public about the fact that this is what he believed. And he got elected and re-elected. If anyone believed different, they were juding wrongly by some other criteria, like presuming he would be more socialistic because of the color of his skin or his community organizing jobs in his Chicago years, or something like that.
The point now should be: he and others like him like the Clintons chose to be very active members of the Democratic party. They are the faction that believes in capitalism. When those from that faction run for office, these beliefs attract votes from certain Independents and swings and also turn off votes from other Independents and swings who have more populist beliefs. Those active in the Democratic party with more socialist beliefs can attract votes from independents and swings who have more populist beliefs and turn off votes from those who have more capitalist beliefs.
It is nothing to be outraged about! If the politician is honest about it and doesn't dishonestly try to pander with something he/she doesn't believe. Rather, it is something to debate.
I reiterate that I think what should outrage people is when a politician is dishonest about what he or she believes in order to get votes. People should know and understand what they are voting for. We have the worst example of a con artist in the presidency right now who doesn't seem to believe in anything and has virtually done the historical ultimate in spinning to get popularity. It makes it more clear that this is what we shouldn't want, this is what should outrage: spinning to suggest something that the person is not in order to get votes.
by artappraiser on Fri, 09/22/2017 - 12:37pm