Clay Feet

    Paul Krugman reflects on Armies of Expensive Lawyers, Replaced by Cheaper Software - NYTimes.com in Degrees and Dollars - NYTimes.com

    Diagnosis, good. Prescription, lousy.

    Accounting? Why does no one notice how PCs plus Visicalc and its descendants more than decimated the accounting field? I guess to NYT writers and readers the armies of accountants, clerks and supporting personnel were menial, not elite, jobs lost to the first second wave of computerization.

    The lawyers and accountants that thrived and employed large numbers may be an endangered but so are the broad-based human knowledge and skills that those areas developed. I foresee the algorithms of legal discovery will become simpler and simpler until humans once again will surpass the abilities of machines. But that is the far future. Near future there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Back to Krugman's prescription:

    So if we want a society of broadly shared prosperity, education isn’t the answer — we’ll have to go about building that society directly. We need to restore the bargaining power that labor has lost over the last 30 years, so that ordinary workers as well as superstars have the power to bargain for good wages. We need to guarantee the essentials, above all health care, to every citizen.

    A society of broadly shared prosperity needs collective bargaining more than education because the only jobs in the future not vulnerable to the rise of the machines are manual personal service jobs? This from a Noble Prize winning economist?

    When will progressive economists start thinking beyond a jobs economy especially one where jobs have devolved to servicing the wealthy? Maybe just notice that the other side figured that out ages ago? Or that the other side has no interest whatsoever in broadly sharing prosperity because then who would they get to perform personal services?

    No wonder we are fubar.

     

    Comments

    And computers can be hacked and compromised by people in Asiatic Russia and China.


    Lots of homegrown hackers as well.

    :D


    I think there has to be reactions from the people being savaged by the repubs.

    Like I told Ramona, the repubs have pissed off the minorites, the teachers, the police, the firefighters and they continue to find new groups to savage.

    And they keep pushing for more rights for the two percenters.

    Hardly a big tent philosophy!

    That has to be good for the dems.

    And it has to put new energy into our unions.

    Krugman is a good man, thanks!


    Of course the other side has no interest whatsoever in broadly sharing prosperity, the idea is their 'personal services' should be performed at a fair rate with fair benefits. I think that is what Krugman means.

    Australia has 5% unemployment, a $15/hour minimum wage with the Aussie dollar near parity with the US dollar, and they have universal health care cradle to grave, that is 'shared prosperity'. It's also why Murdoch gave up his Aussie citizenship over 25 years ago to come here where the dollar rules all, and prosperity is not shared.


    No doubt sharing prosperity could be improved under our current system but when an entire column in premium progressive territory concludes that the best way to address disappearing jobs is to get used to the idea of either rendering or receiving personal services and negotiate for better working conditions then there is something seriously wrong with the imagination of the writer, one known at least formerly as a neo-liberal.

     


    I'm not getting the same impression from Krugman's statement you are. I think he's saying we can't educate ourselves out of a problem that ultimately requires people - possessing the skill sets they bring to the table today - to reestablish a more level economic playing field.

    I don't give a damn how well educated you are. If your upwards earning potential is limited by how much a Chinese sweatshop pays their slave labor force, life is going to suck. The more educated a person, more likely they are to realize just how badly the situation serves them ... but I don't see how an advanced "green energy" engineering degree does anything to level the playing field we're talking about.

    Superior education is NOT why the elite are increasing their financial circumstance while the rest of the world's population sees major declines. I am with Krugman here (wow, that's rare). I don't see how the education levels in the workforce would have a significant impact on current economic disparity when this is seemingly not the causal factor.


    I agree that we cannot credential ourselves into broadly shared prosperity anymore than we can negotiate with the self-perceived masters of the universe for it.  In the current model, they have no incentives to bring them to the negotiating table.

    I welcome the rise of the machines, at least  for the most part and as long as they do not turn into Skynet. But why should that mean a hollowing out of the middle and such a huge gap that the poor have to provide personal services to the rich to share the wealth?  Why not share what work is left humans to do?  Better still why not organize in a different way and compete with those who would be our masters?  

    I have absolutely no desire to emulate the late British Empire's upstairs/downstairs class system.

    It was so disappointing to read this Krugman.  He is better than that.

     


    I'm still not understanding that an upstairs/downstairs class system is the endgame he's advocating. I see it as discussing the most effective way to address in the near-term that this is exactly what our current social structure has become. He seems to want to change that dynamic.

    I don't really see that machines have accomplished eliminating the need for humanity to be productive - or even significantly having reduced the need for human productivity at this point. It has simply changed the daily tasks that need to be performed somewhat and empowered a cadre of professionals to keep things on the tracks using a different set of tools but in a very analogous fashion to the troubleshooters and technicians of days past.


    "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." - Pablo Picasso

    Just one example in a long series of reasons why ....


    Yes, definitely we are not on same wave length.   

    There was an article a few weeks ago that I think it was in the Times about the demand among the affluent for personal services so maybe that influenced my reaction to Krugman.  

    Still I do wish someone to the left in the commentariat would begin thinking about economics in new categories.  A key part of neo-liberalism since the 1970s was financialisation.  I know many here think that is a bad, bad thing.  It is not.  It has amazing potential for broadly sharing prosperity but right now its benefits are being badly misdirected to a tiny portion of the population because we have been convinced by them that government should not be in business for itself.  Why not?  

    Why should not GSEs set standards and benchmarks for private enterprises to compete against?  Why do we as a society not self-insure -- not just medical but other areas as well?  Isn't insuring individuals against nature red in tooth and claw what a society is at its core?   Why do so many people who rail against taxes meekly accept regularly increasing insurance premiums?   Why do these same people think it is just fine to mortgage their futures at exorbitant interest rates that benefit the very few but flinch at the idea of a government deficit?

    Obviously there are downsides to government programs like Congress critters trying to micromange or corrupt programs but those things can be worked out.  


    And pseudo-OT. I think the bookkeeping field was decimated more than the accounting field. It became very easy for your average business owner to do the basic data entry in-house. But even with software processing capabilities, it's pretty damn risky not handing the mess over to a trained professional to prepare and certify the final reporting. The outcomes are still only as accurate as the person who entered the data.


    Side note to that:  Regulations required financial firms (at least stockbrokers) to keep their books on premises at all time -- at least thorough the mid-80s.  That made in house bookkeeping/accounting easier and cheaper than contractors.

    That transition reduced the internal controls a division of duties and responsiblilties provided making it easier for the some of the more unscrupulous accountants to finagle the financials. 


    Oh...you mean like ENRON, Global Crossings, AIG,  Bear Sterns...................................


    You're being awfully hard on Krugman, Emma. He isn't saying education is irrelevant; he's saying it's irrelevant to creating jobs, especially the middle-class ones that are disappearing. It may be comforting to think we can educate ourselves out of this mess, but if it's an illusion -- better to realize it now. Fact is, there's absolutely no solution as long as the powers that be are totally in thrall to society's richest 2 per cent..


    I guess I did not word this very well.  

    It is not surprising on a forum with so many academics that everyone thinks my disagreement with Krugman is about education.  I do not disagree with him there.  As I said, his diagnosis is good; his prescription lousy.   He prescribes collective bargaining or squabbling over the value of what jobs are left.  A future so bright we'll have to wear shades!

    My question is why is that as far as so-called 'progressive' economists can see into the future?  Is there no other way we can organize an economy?

    Yglesias just blogged about the future a la Star Trek.  He echoes a thought experiment I did a few decades ago that changed forever the way I think of Teh Economy.  Imagine a world with machines that can construct and deconstruct any physical object powered by a practically unlimited energy source and everyone has access to varying sizes.  In Trekkie jargon, replicators and dilithium crystals.  What is the economy of such a society based on.   What is there a market for and what is the medium of exchange?  

    Just for fun and to solve Yglesias land dilemma, everyone has a holodeck in which to live.  All anyone would need is a good sized area to be any room or space in which to live lifetimes. :)

    Not really kidding.  These things may well never come to be but the thought experiment still opens up a whole new way of thinking about markets and money and other things economics related. You just have to shift your suspension of disbelief a little to the left.


    I realize the above may sound frivolous but the biggest surprise in my own thought experment was that we here in North America and Western Europe had already reached 90-95% of the econmic development of 24th century Star Trek.  Everyone does not have magical machines for individual economic freedom but together we are or were able to easily produce enough that all of us could have our basic needs and wants met with a substantial surplus and plenty of leisure for everyone.  Why are we not living lives closer to that Star Trek ideal of eudomonia?  Yglesias gets into that in his post.  It is about power and that is a subject I have never understood very well.


    One problem with the thought experiment: just as they say - if God didn't exist we would have to invent him - the inverse is true of the delithium replicator: if it existed we would have to destroy it.

    If we currently ban the production of durable light bulbs and ipod batteries, what are the chances anyone will be allowed to produce a delithium replicator...?



    And I thought I was the only one here who routinely wears a tinfoil hat. :)

    Though it is true that the powers that be like to keep us dependent.  The modern equivalent to barefoot and pregnant. 

     


    I think you are selling the concept of collective bargaining short .... which in turn is why I think we've got such different perspectives here.

    I don't see it as squabbling over the few jobs left. I see it as a reaffirmation of the importance of looking out for America's labor force - and a reaffirmation by American workers that their interests are worth full-on going to war over. That's not only about compensation for extant jobs. It's about policy that sends jobs overseas. It's about weather we're going to invest to create jobs for American workers or if we're going to invest in protecting wealth for the top 2%. Are we going to TELL the parties what we expect of them ... or are we going to allow them to tell us what the upper-reaches of OUR "possible" is? Do we sit for another decade getting kicked in the teeth telling ourselves the Democrats will save us ... or do we seize our own destiny and assert that we will not be denied regardless who holds office?

    There is an awful lot riding on what happens across the next year or so. In a lot of ways American small business as it has existed to this point is also in the balance. The same factors that are decimating our workforce are also wreaking havoc on the ability for many American businessmen to compete. We need to win this. It's not about a couple of teaching jobs in Wisconsin. It's about power. And if the American people are going to have any. We're all in this sinking boat together ... well, most of us are.

    I think Krugman's on to something. Thought experiments are all well and good. The question becomes; as a result of those thought experiments, what did you conclude would be a better mechanism to plausibly move us from where we are to where we want to be? It's not Utopian or even particularly sexy ... but I fear solidarity might be one of the few things we have left to work with.


    Imagine a world with machines that can construct and deconstruct any physical object powered by a practically unlimited energy source and everyone has access to varying sizes. 

    Monsters from the Id. Monsters from the subconscious. Of course. That's what Doc meant. The big machine...200 cubic miles of Klystron relays...enough power for a whole population of creative geniuses...operated by remote control. Morbius, operated by the electromagnetic impulses...of individual Krell brains.

    To what purpose?

    In return, that machine would instantaneously project solid matter... to any point on the planet, in any shape or color they might imagine...for any purpose, Morbius!

    Creation by mere thought. Why haven't I seen this all along?

    Like you, the Krell forgot one deadly danger...their own subconscious hate and lust for destruction.

    The beast. The mindless primitive. Even the Krell must have evolved from that beginning.

    And so those mindless beasts of the subconscious...had access to a machine that could never be shut down. The secret devil of every soul on the planet... all set free at once to loot and maim...and take revenge and kill!

    My poor Krell! After a million years of shining sanity...they could hardly have understood
    what power was destroying them. - Forbidden Planet


    I did mention the threat of Skynet somewhere upthread. :)

     


    The problem as I see it in the Star Trek thought exPrriment is that it implies that the economy is owned by and operated for the benefit of the commonwealth. It is not. The "owners" of the economy are the profit-takers. The rest of us? The "human resource" that is afforded the same status and is assigned the same economic laws within which to operate as any other commodity. Thus, for example, the benefits of any improved efficiency in labor accrues fully to the owners. And in direct proportion to the resultant "decreased value" (market price to be paid) of the human resource that previously provided the labor.

    Yes, the economy is owned and operated by the commonwealth and that is not simply implied -- it is recognized.  That is something today's liberal/progressives would do well to convey politically instead of shrinking away from charges of socialism.  That can be done without even using the 'S" word by using the language of Wall Street and other financial services e.g. pools, mutuals, funds.

     


    But the reality is that it is indeed NOT owned by and operated for the benefit of the commonwealth. That it is "recognized" as such is simply the lie they tell us.

    In the land of free markets, profit-takers rule supreme. Everything else (Labor, the environment, human rights, security, hope, dreams, aspirations, human dignity, etc.) are all a commodity to be consumed as required at the lowest possible price to "keep the economy growing." Everything else - including you, me, and our children - are just grist for the mill.

    Win the Future!


    I am confused.  Win the Future?  Star Trek is set in the future.   What is it you want to win?  


    What do I want to win?

    Pretty simple. A piece of the economic pie. An economy that works for me, rather than the other way around. An economy that works in the interests of the middle class and the poor and the foreign laborer and, well, just about everyone who sucks wind on this planet.

    "Win the Future" (WTF?) was a reference to Obama's vaunted State of the Union introduction of HIS vision, wherein we can all revel in the promise of Star Trek only without any aspirations allowed of us, personally, gaining any of the really cool accoutrements. Those remain the provenance of the owners (the profit-takers) for whom we all must make sacrifices so they can continue to "grow" in the manner to which they are accustomed.

    The neo-lib economists and Obama and our friends on Wall Street promise that we can become "innovative hobos" if we would just knuckle down and try. (h/t to Obey) Call me an ingrate, but I guess I was looking for a bit more than that.

    Hear of any other deals being offered to those of us who supposedly "own" and operate this economy? No? I didn't think so.

    Meanwhile, listening to neo-libs go on about the woonders of this economy is something akin to listening to Mengele (in his day) discuss the brave new world of medical research. Is it science-based? Well, yes it is. Is it plausible? Well, yes, for better or worse, it is. Does it accomplish the objectives set forth for it? Undoubtably, yes it does.

    It makes sense. It works. But when listened to as one of the last surviving Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto, you find yourself wishing someone, somewhere would start looking into an "Alternative Plan 'B'"


    A Lasting Piece of The Action !


    You must be very tired by now with all the goings on in Wisconsin.

    This is a conversation I would very much like to have with you but not while you are in such a beseiged mindset and asking people in a threatening tone which side they are on is a beseiged mindset.

    For the record, I am on the side of life and humanity.


    I wouldn't try speaking for Sleapin', he handles that quite well for himself, but I take him as as saying that there is a threat that must be met and issuing a challenge, not a threat, for us all to step up and show by our actions "Which side we are on".


    Thanks, LuLu. But I would not choose to insert any qualifiers into my rhetoric at all. It is unapologetically "Class War" talk, and I would love the opportunity to explore with Emma or anyone the reality in which it is appropriately offered as a response. This conceit that our economy is "humane" and "life affirming" simply defies the facts of its design and its outcomes. The pursuit of profit with intent that it accrue and aggregate without limits to "winners" (who happen to write the rules) at considerable cost to the "losers" (or worse, "innocent bystanders") and our environment and our security, etc., is decidedly cruel. And all the neo-lib talk about "Win The Future" can't cover for the fact that it ain't OUR future wealth and/or happiness that's being considered as any significant part of the equation. We are A "human resource"; grist for the mill that grinds out profit for the ownership class. Nothing more. And, yes, I'm fighting back in opposition. Which side are YOU on?

    I want a holodeck.


     

    Almost as good.


    I read Krugman as to be saying progress, specifically computers, are eating jobs out of the job market from the center and slowly working its way towards both the high wage and low wage earners...thus the "hollowing out". So "work" that is hard to automate is the new job category every one should be leaning towards. However, what jobs are hard to automate that requires a college degree? Krugman say "there are things education can’t do" so one can only ask is a degree nothing more than window dressing that no longer compliments a leanred skill or trade? Is he hinting the only employment in the future will be for those with skills and trade knowledge that can't be automated? Jobs where the cost to automate are greater than the cost of a person to perform the tasks? Most of those jobs hire illegals...cheap labor for hard and dirty tasks.

    As for his comment towards the end...We need to restore the bargaining power...I think he means all labor...the working public. We all need the power to challenge employers so as to secure our positions along with automation being used to improve the process.

    What's missing is whom do manufacturers expect to sell their products if the automated processes have replaced workers? Their rush to automate is creating a void of customers. Something their computer models have yet to address.

     


    Your interpretation of Krugman is spot on, imo.  

    What continues to bug me is how for most of the column Krugman goes to great lengths pointing out labor's weakening negotiating position then abruptly advises, "We need to restore bargaining power." but he doesn't say anything about how that can be accomplished.

     


    Typical college professor...gives you enough to whet your appetite, but if you want meat on the bone too, you're gonna have to dig for it. In most cases, restoration of something lost implies there has to be some sacrifice in order to get something close to, but not quite the same as it was before. Like trying restore an old automobile and you can't find a specific part. You end up installing something in it's place. It does the job, but it isn't authentic so the restoration is only partial successful.


    I read Krugman as to be saying progress, specifically computers, are eating jobs out of the job market from the center and slowly working its way towards both the high wage and low wage earners...thus the "hollowing out". So "work" that is hard to automate is the new job category every one should be leaning towards.

    Ummm...I believe I said that In at least one - possibly two - post on the old TPM Cafe sight a while ago.


    TPM Cafe? Ancient history, dude! Not much happening there since the reader blogs were shutdown and their articles lack the luster they once held. But I will agree you made many points there to illustrate the decline which Krugman brings out in the article. But this does bring to mind I've seen many articulating the educational system is training students, not educating them. Perhaps they're  one step ahead of us all...training students prepares them for learning trade skills that would be more to their benefit than an education for higher learning would be.


    I almost instantly regretted publishing this post.  I wrote it in haste because I was irritated.  I do that often but after venting usually end up deleting rather than saving.  

    I regret it even more now because I just found Walter Russell Mead blogged about Krugman's column and published it a few hours later.   His reaction was the same as mine but he writes much better and weaves many more threads into his reaction -- even Oliver Wendall Holmes' poem, "One Hoss Shay".  

    Definitely worth reading.

    Paul Krugman Gets It Half Right


    Emma, why regret it? The discussion's a good one.


    Because I would rather read than write?  Or because what I think is usually not in the Overton Window.  

    It's good to know you are enjoying the discussion.  


    Emma; Nothing personal, but did we read the same Mead article? I've never been to his site before, and gotta say, while I'm no huge fan of Krugman, Mead left me more than a little cold.

    My rant - and fair warning, my Daily Grouchometer is at about 10.5 on a scale of 11: 

    1. The guy wants government employees, pension and programs cut, because, after all, "the salaries and benefits of state employees add up to $18.5 billion, or a fifth of New York’s operating budget" (That quote has to be a joke, right? Right? It's 20% of the budget, for ALL the people and staff, and this is clearly bankruptcy material?)...

    2. He then says we can't raise taxes (though if we're thinking about that thing "evidence" at all, then... ummm... taxes used to be higher... and taxes in pretty much every other developed nation ARE higher.)

    3. He claims we just have to face the facts that China and others are going to yank most of our jobs away and sees a decline in wages as inevitable, since unions can't raise them, and if wages do rise, it will only increase industry's "efforts to reduce their US workforce by outsourcing and automation." Also, we face a situation where workers as a whole face "a background of falling long-term demand for their work." 

    Wow.

    4. Now, I'm probably as savage as anyone when it comes to completely changing our educational system (roll grenade under door.) And I also happen to hate (with a passion) what he calls "frictional" services in the economy (like lawyers, according to him.) But where's the finger pointing at the world of private sector assholes working at imaginary shit that has NO productive outcome at all? 

    Let me put it this way. Give me 5 minutes, and I can put 50% of the American insurance, real estate and financial sector out of work, I'll thrown in advertising and communications, it'll cut the cost of living to everyone, "free up" hundreds of billions for consumption and investment, and generally do a whole hell of a lot more to reduce the overhead and "friction" on the economy than the entire Republican Party will with their Meadian nonsense. No really. 

    The guy's blowing hard for the Right.

    5. Don't think so? How about we look at his solutions for JOBS for all of us in the future? And rub my magic patch and call me George Gilder, but - to me - this sure sounds like a conman in full pitch:

    "What will the brave new American economy look like?  Nobody knows.  But maybe you will have (or be) a kind of geek-on-call who, for a fixed rate, handles anything that goes wrong with all your electronic and media equipment, who handles those three hour tech support calls for you, and who also figures out what cable, direct TV, online or other service providers work best for you.  Maybe you will use or run services that shuttle kids around the suburbs to their various classes and sport events.  Maybe all of us, instead of a handful of upper middle class and upper class people, will have access to serious personalized guidance and educational counseling for our kids.  Maybe you will have a personal nutritionist who is also your shopper. Health care will be more individually tailored, and instead of seeing a doctor every time you are sick, you may spend time with a person who helps you navigate the health system and who makes house calls (with a “smart box” that give better diagnoses with more up to date knowledge than 90% of human doctors) and sets up a treatment carefully calibrated to work best for you."

    Does this guy get out much? Or has he recently incurred a hockey-related head injury? That sort of shit should bar you from writing. Like that guy at tPM that went on and on about his BMW repairman, as some sort of job of the future.

    Maybe I'm being too harsh though. I'd probably be willing to hire Mead to ferry my kids around to their classes and sports events. 

    As long as he has his own van.


    Thanks, I needed that. :)  

    Yes, Mead is as blinkered and blinded by his God and Gold mindset as he claims Krugman is by the blue social model but I read him regularly and always factor that in.  I guess I should have warned you.  I read your comment about Orlov and Beck just before reading this Mead post and thought you might like to read another kollapsnik[sic?].

    It reads like you did enjoy it or at least it got your blood pumping. :)

    Would if I could give you that five minutes to clean things up but from what you say there, I am not sure I agree with your prescription either.  Why don't you tell me more about then I'll tell you mine.


    Oh jeez. I get called out on my "Just gimme 5 minutes" bloviation. Damn. Ok. An attempt! (Warning: Please note the emotional-amps behind my intermediary-hatred originate from a farm upbringing, where everybody who handles the crop/food after the farm-gate is considered to be a mooch, and anyone providing inputs is a monopolist. ;-))

    That said, I'm convinced enormous chunks of our GDP are being bled out of more productive use by the insertion and expansion of intermediaries. Once established, they get to call themselves "businesses" and be considered to be "wealth-creators" and such, as opposed to everyone in Government, who is automatically an unproductive leech. 

    1. Take... auto insurance. I'm not sure anyone really spends much time dreaming about the fantastic features they can get in their next auto insurance policy. What they want is some sensible coverage, at not too high a rate, and the assurance that the policy will be there, post-crash. Now, I'm sure the industry has lots of babble about the benefits which private auto insurance has brought, fabulous new forms of coverage, technological wizardry, great ways they're investing my cash. 

    And I believe none of it. 

    Instead, I look at places like Manitoba, which has one simple public auto insurance firm (as does Sask ,BC and Quebec), and which is - perhaps surprisingly - plenty innovative, which rebates surpluses, does lots of good public education and works to reduce auto theft and such, and which, all in all, has kept rates low, coverage comprehensive, and the whole service provided simply and sustainably. (Also, people can private extended insurance if they wish.) 

    To compare I need only look at my home province of Nova Scotia (which is the usual comparator to Manitoba in Canadian terms), where approx. 80% of its citizens think the entirely private auto insurance industry should be tarred and feathered. Really, it's a major election issue. Have an accident, and you're doomed. People spend a lot of money to make sure accidents are handled off the record. In Ontario, it's even worse.

    Families in Canada can easily spend $500-$5000 more to cover their vehicles each year under the "competitive" systems in Ontario and Nova Scotia, for instance... the rates have become major election issues in 4 Eastern provinces... and most of the population would love the stability and low rates of the 4 public insurance systems.

    I just checked 2 studies from the Consumers Association (though only 2003-04.) They found that 3 private sector comparable provinces (Alberta, Nova Scotia and NB) had AVERAGE rates, per vehicle, TWICE that of the public provinces (BC, Sask and Manitoba.) In cash terms, it's $1,000 per vehicle, per year.

    For a family earning $50,000 a year, an extra $2,000 per annum for a two car family is a 4% sales tax. Seen another way, even if its just $2,000 a year, but it happens each year for, ohhhhh, 50 years... that's worth a good $100,000 over your lifetime, right? 

    2. Or take... real estate agents. I mean, is there a more criminal enterprise over the last 20 years? 6-7% per transaction? For doing... what again? Now, I often used to say this out of ignorance (the way I say many things.) But as I've just bought a house, and then sold it, and spent long hours talking with my brother - a realtor - about it. 

    At which point, I feel on much firmer ground in saying... kill them. All. 

    My realtor was a powerhouse. She sold 100+ houses last year. She had a white sports car. Bleached blonde hair all piled up. New teeth. A deep tan. An entirely rebuilt front end. She roared around, talking about what she would do. In the end, I wrote the listing. I pitched it $40,000 higher than she thought reasonable. In the end, I found the keen one, and closed the sale.

    She - and her counterpart - got $20,000 or so.

    As an industry, they mislead, double deal, encourage buyers to buy too much house, and all in all, they've been an enormous part of the process of turning our homes into "real estate" - which does very bad things for our communities.

    I know there are lovely people in the trade, honest ones, knowledgable ones, helpful ones. My brother, for instance. But there are also enormous numbers of double-income professional and business families in which one party is a realtor, who take in $200-$300-$400,000, for doing a pathetically small amount of work. And who have contributed mightily to the accelerating divergence of incomes in North America. Oh, and they're some of the worst blow hards in that small-c conservative world of Chambers of Commerce. 

    They can be replaced by supporting and speeding the process presently underway, of people being enabled to do their own sales, of having open access to listings, and so on. Maybe it just reduces their cut from say, 7% to... I donno... 3%. But imagine Government added a 4% sales tax on every property transaction. Think there'd be some upset amongst the TeaBaggers? But I'll bet 10% of them are bloody realtors! 

    Or, imagine the value of everybody's house just rose by... $10,000. Imagine that. A cheque for $10,000 landing in your hot little hand. 

    Imagine if you sold 5 houses in your lifetime. $50,000. In your hand. Gimmmeeeeeee.... Whoops, sorry! Your realtor got here first! 

    I'll stop there. I'm aware the bigger fish, further up the finance chain, are the real money lies. But me, I'd like to see even some of these petty bourgeois fish fry. But you know what they say....

    $50,000 here and $100,000 there, and soon you're talking real money.


    Canada has public auto insurance?  How wonderful!

    Local insurance agents and realtors are a great place to begin and let's throw in local bankers and mortgage brokers who give sweetheart deals to friends and family and screw everyone else, too. Make them think twice about paying their CoC dues.

    Since you started skinning bark from the bottom up, I'll start from the top down.  Form a new government-owned independent enterprise to effect a hostile takeover of Bank of America and all its domestic branches plus VISA cards.  Said purchase to be funded by special issue bonds purchaseable only by US citizens or other exclusive government agencies or corporations <cough>SSI</cough>.  After plenty of warning, close down the FDIC for all other banks.

    Why Bank of America?  Nothing personal.

    • The name.
    • It is in the worst trouble just now.
    • It has the most domestic branches at present.

    Forget regulations.   Beat them at their own games.

     

     What all this proves is that we both have impossible dreams.  


    The shocking thing is ideas which are actually so humdrum (in the eyes of the wider world) should be considered "impossible" under existing circumstances. I mean, 4 provinces simply brought in public auto insurance. 3 more were looking at it, including 2 I was involved in. But... they backed off. The idea of laying off local auto insurance agents, while opposing "big insurance," just seemed too risky. Interesting to me is that similar-sized ideas moving to the right - e.g. cutting all small business income taxes - got accepted.

    The Bank of America thing sounds great. I also like the idea of "moving our funds" over into existing credit unions and smaller banks and such. Donno which would work better. 


     Donno which would work better. 

    A hint.  Reserve Funds, the infamous breakers of the buck money market fund, specialize in providing money fund services to small banks and credit unions so they can be competitive with the big guys.

    :D

     


    Only slightly tangential, Ellen Brown (no, Jolly Roger; not the Cafe one-eyed Ellen) is pushing state-owned banks as an alternative.  Makes sense to me.  Opednews is a good site, IMO, as an opinion aggregator.

    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Restoring-Economic-Soverei-by-Ellen-Brown-110217-556.html


    even more tangenital, like off-topic but on your topic of Ellen's: Smile

    The Ellen Hodgson Brown you just cited IS the Ellen Brown that jolly roger thinks is the TPMCafe Ellen. But I think he's wrong on that  Web of Debt is one of Ellen Hodgson Brown's several websites and it's the blog jolly roger thinks is TPM Cafe Ellen's blog. (And I saw a comment with link somewhere by flowerchild that has now bought into his view on this.)

    Here is Ellen Hodgson Brown's main website domain with her picture and bio:

    http://www.ellenbrown.com/

    The "Web of Debt" book and site are linked there in the list of books she has written. Previous to "web of debt" interest in economics, she did a lot of books on alternative medicine, an interest that developed after spending time defending, as an LA area lawyer, such practioners in Latin America.

    I asked Jolly Roger  how he knew that was the same and Ellen and he said thinks the writing style is similar. I totally think he's off his rocker on that, did from the start. There's not a smidgen of snark in anything Ellen Hodgson Brown has on any of her sites. I think she writes extremely differently from TPMCafe Ellen. Plus TPMCafe Ellen expressed different economic opinions than some of those of Ellen Hodgson Brown on "Web of Debt," never mentioned Latin America and showed zero interest in alternate medicine in the many times she discussed points related to health care reform, nor did she ever say anything that hinted she was an attorney. Of personal experience, she mainly mentioned investments she had made.

    Finally to Jolly Roger: sorry, but I think you are wrong, not to mention you have a hard time recognizing people here by their writing style unless they have the same name as at TPMCafe. Ellen Hodgson Brown of Web of Debt not only writes quite differently from TPMCafe Ellen, when she comments on "Web of Debt" she is often saying "will write more if I find the time," not exactly someone with extra time to be razzing Dean Baker, Jim Sleeper  and Rosenberg on TPM Cafe.


    So, what you have here is just your opinion on who is the real Ellen Brown.  What jolly roger has is just his opinion, too.  And what I have is my opinion of jolly roger's opinion.

    I see.

    No facts were harmed in the writing of these comments.


    No facts were harmed in the writing of these comments.

    And that's a fact! Smile And content is king, especially when you're dealing with pseudonyms. Still, we all like to think we know a writer, and I think that's not always a bad thing because it's part of being skeptical, trying to intuit motives, slant or ideology.


    LOL!  Gosh; I looked at her website, too, and her booklist on amazon...and I happen to have a friend here who actually emailed this Ellen H. Brown and asked her if she were the Cafe's One-eyed Ellen.  The answer was along the lines of "never heard of any of ya'!"  p.s. the curandero healing books were the first give-away.   Cool

    And yet, I liked the State Bank ideas.  And I like Opednews.


    Thanks for the extra confirmation of my inklings. Smile BTW, I don't necessarily assign negative connotations to the alternative medicine books background, I think you'd have to read one or two to judge, which I haven't.


    No; the healing books just didn't tally with Ms. One-Stunning-Eyed.  ;o)  Confession: I took a semiar from a shamanic healer; one part was to allow his small, but wirey assistant to walk on our stomachs.  I allowed him to, like an idiot (in for a penny, in for a pound thinking), but I had wished I'd penned my will beforehand.  Cool 


    Quinn, Emma--I couldn't remember where I'd seen this yesterday, but it seems more 'friction' is about to come when the ACA and mandate gets rolling.  This is about the very similar MA plan; the results don't indicate much gets fixed by it.  Who will take on lessening actual health care costs?  The same folks who are overhauling the tax code?  My daughter used to refer to 'Mr. Nobody'.

    http://www.angrybearblog.com/2011/03/still-fixing-fixed-fixed-healthcare.html#more

    (A report from US News & World:  Health Reform Hasn't Halted Bankruptcies)

    Anyone can say the plans aren't the same; I would believe them, but D. Becker thinks they are.


    Bravo, quinn! Terrific form at bursting this bubble the we are helpless to prevent our inevitable decline into irrelevance in this "free market." We must, after all, be willing to sacrifice everything - even our dignity - for "the growth of the economy," right? It's our job. Our legacy to hand down to our children. Why, it's downright patriotic!

    But then, absurdity does make for an easy target, right? Thanks for this. Gotta go for now, but I'll be back later to read it all - including the Mead article, etc.


    You know, I'm starting to realize something. What I value is free enterprise. It has taken a while to understand that this is a totally different thing than free markets. Markets really exist to facilitate free enterprise - their structure and rules should be designed to enhance legitimate business endeavors.

    The idea of "Free Markets" appears to dissociate operational mechanisms and motivations from the underlying purpose for the existence of markets in the first place. It  doesn't appear possible to embrace both free markets and a robust system of free enterprise. As a businessman, I really only care about the latter.


    Well, sort of I guess. I'd sort of prefer to see things operating somewhat more sophisticated, but I can see using the analogy to expand my thought. It sure does break it down to it's most basic level - getting kneecapped on the way to market is getting kneecapped on the way to market. Things are indeed tough all over.


    I really like this line from that piece

    one of the great secrets of America’s historical success is that the voices of nostalgia are weaker here than in other places.

    Because It helps explain, to myself, my dislike to some of the New Deal worship I see. It also relates to why I liked that quote you had from FDR a few days back on a comment thread (which I can't find now,) and of course that Lind article we both liked, and why a discussion about the use of the word reactionary quite a ways back resounded with me.

    It's more accurate than talking about new frontiers or "westward the course of empire" or some such--concept "America," drawing immigrants from allover the world, was really much simpler than that, not something ideological, just really: not nostalgic.

    I don't mean to imply we will continue to be that...maybe our time being that is done...I just think that's a very important historical point.

    But as far as Mead talking the theme better than you or Krugman, I dunno, the interpretations you put on this theme are interesting and different and useful, to me at least. All the voices coming at something from different angles and agendas is the best thing, mho, you drawing all 4 (including Yglesias) together here in a whole is more useful than one P.O.V.--that's why I like forum discussion threads more than the standard blog format  or op-ed that pushes one person's point and then reactions to that one P.O.V.


    p.s. Another reason I like the line: not nostalgic doesn't imply always innovative, just tolerance for different things and change and an ability to adapt to change.


    But as far as Mead talking the theme better than you or Krugman, I dunno, the interpretations you put on this theme are interesting and different and useful, to me at least. All the voices coming at something from different angles and agendas is the best thing, mho, you drawing all 4 (including Yglesias) together here in a whole is more useful than one P.O.V.--that's why I like forum discussion threads more than the standard blog format  or op-ed that pushes one person's point and then reactions to that one P.O.V.

    Thank you.  

    I totally agree that looking at things from different perspectives is a very good thing, although I did read something about the downside of that recently.... but let's save that for later.  

    Mead's comment about nostalgia did not pop out at me as it did for you so I appreciate your pointing it out.   The quote and your comments on it have prompted new thoughts and one reminder of what a melancholy and useless emotion nostalgia is.  We call it 'whistling Dixie' around here.


    There's only so much you can do in a single brief essay. Krugman set out to show we can't educate ourselves into full employment. It's important whether he's right or wrong because that appears to be Obama's official strategy.

    Given that more and more people are being squeezed out of the middle class, Krugman does sketch out at least an interim plan: reward the typical citizen's hard work with a life of dignity -- and that implies freedom of association, collective bargaining, universal health care. What Krugman doesn't spell out is that we'll have to fight the fucking 2% tooth and nail for anything like that.

    One point about viewing education as the path to well-paid jobs (my point, not Krugman's) is that it encourages contempt for manual labor. The real value of education should be personal, not monetary. There's no reason a bus driver can't be an expert in French literature, and -- thanks to the internet -- a recognized one. Maybe driving the bus gives him more time to think. Einstein did his best work while a patent clerk.


    Yes


    One point about viewing education as the path to well-paid jobs (my point, not Krugman's) is that it encourages contempt for manual labor.

    Yes it does which is ironic considering people choose colleges and universities for their trade credentials.  


    Maybe we should be more like Finland ?

    It's a dilemma that American parents don't have a chance to confront. And it's a vivid example of the difference between what the Finns call a social democracyand our society. Finland is a leading example of the northern European view that a successful, competitive society should provide basic social services to all its citizens at affordable prices or at no cost at all. This isn't controversial in Finland; it is taken for granted. For a patriotic American like me, the Finns present a difficult challenge: If we Americans are so rich and so smart, why can't we treat our citizens as well as the Finns do?

    Good question.


    Excellent question.

     


    Hugh at correntewire just about threw a shoe after reading Krugman and the cocktail-party-heartthrob  Zakaria on jobs.  ;o)

    http://correntewire.com/more_establishment_assholery


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