cmaukonen's picture

    GOP Shrugged....best ad yet.

    Comments

    I love it. The Godless GOP and their Ayn Rand Budget Plan.

    http://americanvaluesnetwork.org/2011/05/gop-must-choose-ayn-rand-or-jesus/


    Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. 

    Make these Republican fuckers eat that ad, 24/7. Hack the umbilical cord between the churches and the party, and then roll out some serious old-time Social Gospel messaging. 

    Fuck. Ayn. Rand.


    "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." Kung Fu Monkey


    Reagan appointed and Clinton kept Rand acolyte/devotee Greenspan as Fed Chair,  Bush appointed Greenspan acolyte/devotee Ben Bernanke (formerly of the Fed Board of Govs) as Fed Chair, Obama kept Bernanke on...and kept him on...and on...

    Shhhhh...maybe no one will notice the patterns and connections...


    "with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion.

    Washington's Farewell Address 1796

    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

    It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?

    The Republicans are not the sincere friends of our people and Nation. 

    The Republicans want to shirk their obligations and duties; replacing them with values that selfishly benefits ONLY themselves. Not to serve the Nation.

    To enrich themselves they would destroy the very foundation of our free government they intend to ruin the Nation and steal the spoils.


    Excellent, however, useless.

    One of the problems I have figured out with the GOPer base is they only listen to their leaders ... and they are putting Rand on the pedestal of political sainthood as if she were better than Jefferson. Any criticism given by Democrats or someone not of their clan is rejected with extreme prejudice without considering facts. They truly are both faithful and factless in their belief in what America stands for, it's history, how the government should work and what the Constitution says. One should never argue with or enter into any agreements a fool ... best thing is to ignore them and let their follies be their downfall. Unfortunately, the only problem is this foolishness is spreading like a disease without a known cure. I suspect it will have to reach pandemic levels in which the economic engine of the country will have to grind to a halt before those under the influence realize just how sick they are. However, by then it will be too late to set things back as they were before and they'll blame those of us who weren't so mentally befuddled for not smacking some sense into them before we let them run the economy into the abyss..


    Maybe so but if we can have it hammered by as many people as possible, the entertainment quality of seeing them squirm would be well worth it alone.

    It has such a When did you stop beating your wife ? quality about it.


    It's the truth, make them own it.

    Ask the moral majority, the Christian coalition how can they support a party that says they believe in Christian principles and yet they support ideology that contradicts. What does that make those republicans?  HYPOCRITES 

    You cannot serve two masters, either you love the one and disown the other or else?

    Divide and conquer the Republican coalitions.    

    Either they disown the leadership that says they are worshippers of Rand, or they are caught as hypocrites. Disown or be associated.

    Democrats can play the Rovian "got ya" 

    Ps I'm trying to find the term used in checkers, when you have placed your piece between your opponents two pieces.. No matter what he does; he's going to lose a piece, he can't protect both.   

    He can't serve both


    If the goal were to convince die-hard GOPpers to abandon the GOP ... of course it is useless. Just as useless as trying to get a die-hard Democrat to abandon the party (even if the party were totally on the road to gutting social security and medicare). That's why they are called die-hard.

    Advertising should generally be focused at people who are NOT at one of those poles. The real question is how would it play with independents, old people, and the wavering on either side of the partisan divide. On all those fronts, I can see it being quite effective - especially with the old.

    The apparent point isn't even entirely the God hook. This ad is interesting in that a concept usually reserved as a dog-whistle (these people are against God) is totally the in-your-face main focus ... while a common in-bounds concept of political advertising (hypocrisy) is the unstated subtext. Rare that circumstance hand up such an opportunity. I like it.


    It is one of the best efforts I have seen from the progressives.  It mimics the style of the opposition very well.   So much so that that is one of its problems.  It preaches to the choir.  Anti-Randians will love it.  True Randians will scorn it for the cheap ad hominem it is.  Meanwhile  its intended targets may very well end up conflating Libertarianism with Atheism just as they did when Socialism/Communism was demonized as Godless.  

    Almost a century later it is still practically impossible to have a rational discussion about either of those two economic systems because of the association.  Do you really want to add a third one? The choice of an economic systems is too important to the general welfare to be closing off options. 


    Do I really want to add a third one?

    Hell yeah.

    At least let's put them all on the same (shaky) moral and religious grounds, and then let them slug it out on their Godless merits. 

    Be damned if I want to fight one more fuckwad who thinks Jesus used to hang out with Adam Smith.


    Ah, but you like to fight. :D

     


    Politics is not a very good pastime for folks who don't like to fight.

    By and large, Americans LOVE to see a good fight ... and they generally revere the fighter who demonstratively kicks ass.


    I resemble that!

    Politics is not a very good pastime for folks who don't like to fight.

    So who said everyone on the internet or everyone participating in the blogosphere is interested in being involved in politics as a pastime? Ever think some might just be interested in figuring out what all the political critters are up to? And not letting on that they have a bone in any fight if they have one at all?

    Knowledge is power; politics is politics and fighting is, well, fighting. It's always been beyond me how so many anti-war folks seem to love practicing behaviors related to verbal abuse, and even war metaphors. Or how so many decrying spin from their opponents seem to want to show how they can spin more and better.


    Actually, I think it should be seen as wanting to get one party OUT of the fight - namely, religion. 

    Make it dollars and cents and production and satisfaction and I think we might have a better chance at sorting it out. 


    Agreed.  By far, progressives have better policy.  They are just not very good at selling it.  In fact, they often bristle at the very idea of having to 'sell' their (to them) intuitively obvious solutions.  That and they trust the opposition too much. Ever Charlie Brown; never Lucy.

     


    Lucy & Linus in 2012!!! 


    Ahhhhhh...'Hope' as the football....but what is 'The Blanket'? 


    The blanket is Social Security...


    :-D

    "There is no heavier burden than a great potential." -- Linus Van Pelt


    The new libertarianism is a threat to what is left of American culture and solidarity.  It is a creed of mindless, narcissistic, anti-social individualism.


    Forgot to mention self-limiting.  The moralities as well as the efficiencies of both systems deserve a frank and open discussion.  I do not see how dragging God or not-god into that discussion helps.

     


    What is going to define the duties and obligations of our politicians and the pious?

    Everyman for himself, or are WE the People    For the People ....... our brothers keeper?  

    We as a Nation have already fought that battle, how many more opportunities must we afford those opposed to the Will of the people?

    We said we wanted a Social Security, the opposition didn’t want it and we fight the battle over and over and over again. 

    Because there is no punishment for always assaulting, they don’t relinquish the battle. 

    What is there to discuss?


    Cultures and societes define duties and obligations.  Sane societies base them on sound and proven principles.  

    Libertarians, like Rand, are inordinately fond of Nietzsche and their intepretation of his master/slave morality.  They consider themselves the masters.  When I read Nietzsche translated, what he described as master/slave sounded a lot like abundance/scarcity or prosperity/adversity morality to me.  

    Humanity has proven time and again it can survive adversity but not prospertiy for some reason.  Can it have anything to do with a privileged adolescent mindset that does not even see the foundation it stands on?

     

     


    You changed your comment while I was replying.  Maybe it is still applicable.

     


    The more religious members of the Republican coalition need to have it pointed out to them that some of their current political heroes are godless heathens who follow the teachings of a monster of idolatrous egoism.


    Godless heathens.  LOL.  

    Problem is they won't hear you.

     


    Hell, if the game is politics ... I don't see how that discussion really advances anything. Nobody in the wider electorate even knows what "libertarian" means; let alone "liberal", "conservative", "progressive", etc ... and few give a fuck. Any discussion centered around such things is pure navel gazing.

    Now, God. Most Americans believe in God. The Republicans use these people's faith to achieve political objectives all the time. They intentionally give the impression of a moral compass set by the teachings of Jesus Christ which will guide their decision making (if they don't simply make explicit statements stating it). That is the sole reason some people vote for Republicans, in fact.

    While you personally disagree with the motivation, those people have developed expectations from their elected representatives based on what they were promised - just as Obama voters have. Now their top leadership is literally following an economic blueprint drawn from a Randian fantasy. The moral basis for a politician's decision making is absolutely germane to these people, and it is absolutely appropriate to contextualize a message to Christian voters in terms of their decision making matrix.

    Medicare and social security are popular with most Americans. The desire to gut it, not so much. The GOP has totally gone out on a limb bragging about the philosophy that underlies their approach. The economic philosophy being advanced truly is based on damn near the exact opposite of the moral code many Americans base their voting choice on. That's not an ad hominem. That is a fact. People already hate the policy outcome the philosophy brings and the GOP has already linked to policy to philosophy in a big way. Give Christian values voters an easy-to-grasp reason to reject it that totally fits their world view.

    Why would you want to discuss the moralities and efficiencies of every imaginable economic approach in the context of advancing policy in America's current political situation? Haven't you decided what you are advocating for? It's kind of to the point where if you want to win - it's time to stop talking at GOPpers and win already. This ad .... over, and over ... exactly how to win.

    I for one am totally fine with the idea of gutting Social Security and Medicare branded as inherently anti-Christian. It is. If the outcome is that Americans refuse to countenance the thought - just as Socialism/Communism became an enemy in idea - I am having a hard time imagining a more decisive victory.


    Now that is a radical interpretation of what I said which was: Leave God out of it.  If for no other reason than you will lose.

     

     


    Lose what?

    Elections? Nope. Obama certainly fought to prove his God cred. And won. As did Bush.

    Policy debates? No way. The "religious right" legislatively cleans liberal clock far more often than the other way around (particularly in the referendum process).

    I understood what you were saying ... I totally disagree. Sorry if my explanation why was overly expansive. Trying to "leave God out of it in" a nation where the majority of the people are Christian and many specifically look to the Word of God (Bible) for guidance doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

    Curious. Are you an Atheist? (It really is none of my business ... feel free to tell me to get lost. I'm agnostic.)


    Everyone loses in holy wars.   

    Do you really think their God cred was the decisive factor in Obama's win or the Bush decision?  Sure both of them courted and even pandered to the so-called "religious right", especially Bush but there were other factors in play.   A big part of that is being able to comfortably speak the idioms, to seem to belong.  Neither Bush nor Obama convinced me.  But what do I know.   I was just raised an old timey southern Baptist.  That not the same thing as new timey Southern Baptists who may very well be deceived by modern Pharisees wearing their religion for show.  And who knows how truly Christian the new non-denominational megachurches are.  So many looking for salvation in all the wrong places.... Sigh.  

    Undigressing.   If you feel you truly must drag God and religion into the economic arena, all of us would be better off if you emphasized something more like Sabbath Economics than by demonizing those who believe the Matthew effect or take the Parable of the Talents too literally.

    Am I an Atheist?  Bwahahahaha.  Interesting that you capitalized it.  Does that mean you recognize it as a belief system.  I am probably best described as a Periennialist which is consistent with my old-timey southern Baptist learning of soul accountability/liberty. 

    The basic concept of individual soul liberty is that, in matters of religion, each person has the liberty to choose what his/her conscience or soul dictates is right, and is responsible to no one but God for the decision that is made. A person may then choose to be a Baptist, a member of another Christian denomination, an adherent to another world religion, or to choose no religious belief system, and neither the church, nor the government, nor family or friends may either make the decision or compel the person to choose otherwise.

    Although no one I ever knew put it that way.  What I was taught is that everyone will one day have to personally stand before God and justify their life.   Best not let someone else choose your beliefs for you.  Being about as literal-minded they come, I got a little obsessive for awahile figuring out what and who I believed.  That is one reason I could never be agnostic

    And "that is all I have to say about that.'.  


    Sabbath Economics sounds a lot like socialism.

    As for me......"We are here and it is now. Further than that, all human knowledge is moonshine." - Henry Louis Mencken


    I thought it sounded like Huey Long. :D

     


    I'm disagree debating issues of concern to Christians using frames that apply to their way of viewing the world equates to holy war. Although, historically, even holy wars have been known to achieve their military objective (sometimes holy warriors end up stuck with a land war in Asia though).

    I don't think Obama or Bush could have possibly won without establishing on that front (Bush would have gone down to McCain in the primary). So, yes, I do think it was a decisive factor. You are probably right that for a politician it is by and large a process of proving they fit in (especially with new evangelicals) but that gets into judging the quality of the faith held by those using faith as a point of decision. In relation to politics, I think religion is more a question of strong self-identity than one of faith. A political approach that refuses to accommodate the target audience's self-identity just seems less effective than one that accommodates self-identity into an approach that challenges the target in frames that match their world view.

    And to be clear, kgb didn't have anything to do with any of this. I simply point out that if you want to win in American politics ... tactics like this are exactly how to do it. I think you are off the rails trying to analyze this on a deep theological basis. The ad doesn't challenge the viewer to question any of the theological minutiae you highlight at all. This is the more basic universal-among-denominations question: "Who do you serve?" Rand cast herself as a literal alternative to God and articulated an agenda of eliminating religion - on video, apparently. She said it explicitly: you can't follow her philosophy and God's. Ryan, in particular, has national aspirations (as does Rand Paul). The entire point of this is to aggressively threaten the politicians' future legitimacy on the "do you fit in" electoral question - which the GOP has routed directly through stringent Christian orthodoxy for their politicians.

    Is it "fair" or "proper" or whatever? Who cares? It has a better likelihood of working than anything I'm seeing go down from the liberal side. I'm pretty interested in winning on this one and liberal democrats seem almost temperamentally incapable of taking a kill shot. Glad the holy rollers are on it - and seemingly on my side. This also seems a case of answering dishonesty with honesty on the specific point raised, which is one always leveraged by the people highlighted, so I even feel kind of good about it.

    Yeah, I view Atheism as a religion (sorry to those this offends ... don't wanna fight over it!). IMO, folks with a strong Atheistic self-identity tend to get caught up in the same dogmas that other religious folks do which leaves them locked in to their own frame with difficulty accommodating (even for the sake of argument) incompatible frames from which others approach things. There is also a "freedom from religion" point of view with Christian proponents ... and lord knows how many other underlying philosophies. I was just curious which direction you were approaching it from.

    What I was taught is that everyone will one day have to personally stand before God and justify their life.

    I like that concept. I was taught pretty much the same. It is similar to a concept I really liked from one of Bob Marley's religious songs. In his formulation, a person is the only one who knows what is truly in their heart and what their hands have done and it will be our own conscience/heart that judges in the end.

    My family is pretty religious (private school through 9th grade w/ theology daily). I distinctly remember the moment I became agnostic. Interestingly, I base my agnosticism on being literal minded as well (I've heard Atheists say the same). For me, the answer "you just have to have faith" was inadequate for some questions. Ultimately, I feel the Atheist core mythology boils down to the same: you've got to have faith in assertions that simply have not been proven scientifically. When someone proves their belief, I'll believe it.

    My general take is a lot of people miss out by not realizing that the tenets of most (non-distorted, reasonably modern) religions provide a framework to be happier living as humanity on Earth as much as earning a spot living forever in awesome not-hell (or not coming back as a slug or whatever). So I see a strong value in formalized religious doctrines and think the general tendency for humans to adopt them plays a net positive role in society. It sucks that gets misdirected for various purposes of power occasionally, but such is the world we live in. In the absence of religion, power simply manipulates analogous structures to achieve it's ends.


    You so confuse me but I think our conversation so far is a good illustration of the case against dragging God or religion into a debate -- it crowds out everything else.

     


    It crowds out ignorance?

    The fools run around screaming "listen to us folks, we can do this without religion"

    We ask you; what proof do you have your plan will work, without religion? Why do you waste our precious time, tearing down our pillars, only to replace them with your so called wisdom?

    The wisdom of the world is not the wisdom of God.


    Sheesh.  Context, Resistance, context.

     


    Swapmland covered this too with a bit more context. They have a video of a guy letting Ryan have an earful ... tries to hand him a Bible and tells him to read Luke. The look on Ryan's face is awesome.

    http://swampland.time.com/2011/06/03/paul-ryans-ayn-rand-problem/

    It doesn't appear to be a strictly progressive outfit mounting this push at all. This really is an interesting turn of events. I wonder how they back-peddle out.

    My guess is they toss Rand overboard and try to re-cast gutting Medicare and Social Security as god's work. That's what Rand would do.


    I'm curious if any of you have read at their website.  I did like 'Returning to 9/12: an Open Letter..." pretty well.  The pages on Scripture and Budget try hard to thread the needle of not using the text as the sole measure for budget, but not ceding "the prophetic language of scripture–and its ability to inspire and frame issues in a moral context–to the other side. Progressives should not be losing on the Bible", but not proselytizing.

    The Social Gospel Christians were a large part of the civil rights movement as we all know, and in a way it's sad that the Chrisianist Right's hypocrisy has caused many of us to squirm with discomfort when there's any whiff of religion involved in the political or legislative sphere. 

    (The Reverend) JIm Wallis has been trying hard for years to be the go-to guy for and alternative Christian discussion, but his stuff didn't work for me so much.  I like some of what's coming out of some Evangelical spheres concerning planetary health and care, and some human rights concerns.  The open letter has a good message about Christ's message to be each other's brothers, etc. 

    Some of the entries are author-attributed, but I didn't see a button to find out who these folks are, and there's no Wiki info.  Anyhoo, is anyone reading the site?  (Yeah, by the time I post this people will be mentioning the site...slowwwww stardust...)    Innocent


    the prophetic language of scripture–and its ability to inspire and frame issues in a moral context–to the other side. Progressives should not be losing on the Bible"

    Excerpt from, 9/12

    "Tell us to shine our light in the darkness, to not return evil for evil, but overcome evil with good.  Tell us to house the homeless, feed the hungry, free the oppressed, and strengthen the bonds between ourselves and our brothers and sisters the world over.  Do not allow this night to become a fleeting moment.  Use it to make the world a place where not only the body of Osama bin Laden is absent, but the hatred he preached is erased from memory as well.  Demand more of us.  And if you do, you will hear us respond, “Here I am, send me.”"

    Just as the Republican party has been highjacked by the extreme right; the left has been highjcked by the extreme left (God is Dead group)

    The left and the right share a common value , Religion and  Country

    Problem is, we dont disuss ACCURATE Knowledge;   too many accept the lies


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