MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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Malaysian jet 'shot down' over Ukraine
By trkingmomoe on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 12:58pm |BREAKING NEWS 295 people was on that plain.
The Boeing 777, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was brought down by a buk ground-to-air missle, Ukrainian interior ministry adviser Anton Herashchenko wrote on his Facebook page.
Ukraine’s President Petro Poroshenko denied his armed forces were involved in the downing of the airliner.
"Armed Forces of Ukraine did not take action against any airborne targets," Poroshenko said.
Malaysian Airlines confirmed it had lost contact with flight MH17 from Amsterdam, saying the aircraft was carrying 280 passengers and 15 crew onboard.
URL:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/07/report-malaysian-jet-crashes-near-ukraine-2014717151147473508.html
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Comments
This had to be a government that did that. This was heavy iron kit Buk(book). That is one of the those big SA's that take a couple of trailers to move. I don't think the rebels would have that. This was a common flight pattern through that area. I guess they will know after they look at the satellite data where that missal came from. It is one of those Red Square parade missals.
by trkingmomoe on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 1:05pm
by Beetlejuice on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 6:00pm
A Ukrainian rebel leader took credit for downing the aircraft
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/PA9gF2kNbKAWb4QkouWlyM/Malaysia-plane-c...
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 1:14pm
Geepers. That iron needs to go. They are not easy to hide. Putin needs to find them and destroy what is left of the kits. The Rebels don't need to have that crap.
by trkingmomoe on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 1:27pm
Read closer. The article you link does not say that anyone has claimed credit for downing the passenger jet in question. Your comment reads like a U.S. newspaper headline quoting un-named highly placed, reliable sources. Nice work.
Both sides are blaming the other as should be expected. It would be extremely counter-productive for the rebels or for Russia to deliberately shoot down a civilian airliner but they no doubt have operatives or mavericks willing to carry out such an atrocity and maybe some of them are that stupid. Could be but my early bet is against it. Ukraine will benefit if the blame lands on either Russia or the rebels whom the Ukraine government instantly blamed.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 2:37pm
Maybe a glitch but I did not deliberately bold my comment.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 2:39pm
Here is some more info on Buk missiles and the rebels from the New Republic
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118741/ukraine-rebels-allegedly-downe...
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 3:29pm
This article contains an alleged transcript of a telephone conversation from a Ukraine government wiretap. The rebels on the call, if accurate, appear to admit that they shot the plane down by accident.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 3:48pm
That is my point that they should not have them. You have to have access to radar and flight information as to who is actually up there. Rebels are not connected to that. They just might shoot down anything. I doubt if they are all that well trained. Putin has a big problem there with those rebels.
by trkingmomoe on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 4:41pm
This of course doesn't prove anything, but it doesn't detract from what you're saying about the rebels being a handful for Russia, I'm sure.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 4:52pm
Putin has really stepped into it. I know he was thinking about that part of Ukraine being the bread basket of Europe before this big drought started. .Russia has not been able to keep up with the grains they need. They stopped exporting grains about 4 years ago because of the effects of global warming. There is a stationary high pressure ridge over Western Russia as well as the Ukraine. also Upper Siberia tundra is full of wild fires right now. Siberia also raised winter wheat in their short growing season in the past. The high pressure ridge is the reason for the drought. Drought has set off Syria and Ukraine into a civil war. I wonder how much more of this we are going to see as the world's climate gets more extreme.
by trkingmomoe on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 5:26pm
The rebels have already shot down a Ukrainian military aircraft and a cargo plane with Soviet-era missiles and launchers provided by Russia. This tragedy could not have been a surprise to Putin. I'm thankful that the administration directed the FAA to restrict American flights through that airspace prior to this.
by barefooted on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 5:50pm
by Beetlejuice on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 6:22pm
What is to stop a military aircraft from spoofing the transponder of a civilian aircraft? It seems to me that would be a standard military tactic (akin to the tactic of putting military shipments on civilian ships during WWII), especially amongst peoples who have little concern for risking the lives of civilians.
by Verified Atheist on Fri, 07/18/2014 - 7:39am
But that's not happened. It really was a civilian aircraft on a scheduled flight, following a flight plan. And the rebels had not declared the area was a no fly zone and any aircraft entering their area would be shot down. If they had, then no commercial aircraft carrying civilians would have been anywhere near the area.
Civilians are protected under the Geneva Convention so those rebels have so explaining to do.
by Beetlejuice on Fri, 07/18/2014 - 1:21pm
Oh, I understand that. I was just wondering what would prevent a military aircraft from pretending to be civilian. I'm not in any way defending those who shot down the civilian aircraft.
by Verified Atheist on Fri, 07/18/2014 - 4:45pm
I believe commercial jet engines ping differently because they are different engines then what the military has. Transponders are sending info the whole time they are in flight back to the air traffic controller radar as they enter in and out of their range. The commercial engines are sending info back to the manufactures the whole time they are running.
by trkingmomoe on Fri, 07/18/2014 - 4:26pm
Yeah, I suppose the easiest way for the military to spoof being a commercial jet is to actually use a commercial jet for military purposes, as is possible was done with the Lusitania.
by Verified Atheist on Fri, 07/18/2014 - 4:49pm
But in today's world of military theater they don't have to do that. They just send in fighters that bate out the SAM's with defensive moves that other fighters locks in on the location of the kit and drops a smart bomb in. They fly a gizillon sorties until they have cleaned them out and any other anti aircraft hardware.
by trkingmomoe on Fri, 07/18/2014 - 5:13pm
by Beetlejuice on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 6:13pm
I wonder what he will do next now that this has happened?
by trkingmomoe on Thu, 07/17/2014 - 8:05pm
That's the definite maybe scenario.
First, he "could" re-capture the missile systems. That way he doesn't have to give NATO the excuse they need to migrate into Poland and Ukaranie and set up shop closer to Russia.
Second, he could do nothing which would give NATO an incentive to move their jurisdiction closer to Russia. If that happens, then NATO force could fill the sky with aircraft seeking out missile sites and destroying them. That would give NATO intell significant insight into how well developed Russian SAM and AAA systems have improved and advanced.
Finally, those LMG (little-green-men because they all of a sudden appeared wearing green military uniforms without insignia), that were behind the civil unrest in the region could decide to keep their toys and use them on Russian troops sent to take them away.
Odd thing is ... everything is quite in Europe at the moment. It's as if everyone expects their governments to do the right thing without their being asked.
by Beetlejuice on Fri, 07/18/2014 - 1:33pm
At the risk of ascribing a warped n-dimensional chess to Putin, giving NATO an incentive to move their jurisdiction closer to Russia could strengthen his ability to grab even more power at home in the interests of "security". (Hey, we're not the only ones who make that mistake.)
by Verified Atheist on Fri, 07/18/2014 - 2:33pm
I think he all ready did that when he was riding horses with out his shirt on.
by trkingmomoe on Fri, 07/18/2014 - 5:25pm
Vlad the Impaler, bringing a whole new dimension to "man on horseback..."
Edit to add: with apologies to Count Dracul
by jollyroger on Sun, 07/20/2014 - 12:02am
I think you will enjoy all the London Times Putin Cartoons with his shirt off.
https://www.google.com/search?q=London+Times+Editorial+Cartoon+Putin&newwindow=1&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=y4DNU9WEH9KjyATcyILoCw&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1185&bih=643
by trkingmomoe on Mon, 07/21/2014 - 5:10pm
I've been working with Romanian's and Poles here in Europe and both are chopping at the bit for NATO to set-up military bases ... troops, tanks, artillery and jet fighters ... seems they fear the Russians will just waltz back. So a NATO presence in those former eastern block nations would be appreciated.
And you're correct, the average Russians would suffer a severe knee-jerk reaction, but there wouldn't be much they could do other than establish a 2nd iron curtain closer if not within their borders.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if this civil unrest in the region really is an attempt to establish a virtual line in the sand between east and west Europe outside Russian borders.
by Beetlejuice on Sun, 07/20/2014 - 1:48pm
When Putin was solidifying his power for life. he promised to restore Russia as a super power in the world. His horse riding showing off his 6 pack was part of the PR game to show how fit he was to be their leader. He would bring back greatness to Russia.
I can understand why the old Soviet Block Countries are nervous about this. What do you think about NATO chances of setting up housekeeping in those countries?
by trkingmomoe on Sun, 07/20/2014 - 6:57pm
I would guess that there are Russian mercenaries mixed in with LGM. If Putin is as smart as he thinks he is, Russia will gather up the Gadflys and take them back home. I don't think he wants NATO in his front yard playing "Here kitty, kitty." Like you said it won't take the US very long to figure out what upgrades they have done.
I took part in NATO's Return to Forces in Jan. 1990. I was in Florida National Guard for 12 years. At that time Florida has a Signal Brigade with some sophisticated equipment. My unit was in Desert Storm but I was kept home to keep the lights on. I was a full time state civil service tech. I spent that time helping families with pay and insurance issues. I just realized how long a go that was.
GOP is busy trying to score points with their base. It didn't take McCain very long to jump in front of a camera.
by trkingmomoe on Fri, 07/18/2014 - 3:51pm
Last thing Putin needs is for rank amateurs running sophisticated equipment to be sloppy in their usage. The US has keen eyes and ears and can pick up significant intell that can be used to develop and refine current ECM/spoofer technology that dupes the system, thus making it useless and open to attack.
by Beetlejuice on Sun, 07/20/2014 - 1:57pm
FWIW Pepe Escobar waves "false flag", and he is knowlegable (if sensationalist)
by jollyroger on Sun, 07/20/2014 - 12:04am
Do you have a link? All I found was a paragraph laying out Christmas in July for NATO and mud thrown over Russia. Who is the Empire of Chaos ?
by trkingmomoe on Sun, 07/20/2014 - 11:59am
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html
by jollyroger on Sun, 07/20/2014 - 1:22pm
also, this
:http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/breaking-part-ii-evidence-co...
by jollyroger on Sun, 07/20/2014 - 1:55pm
Thanks, So they don't like Washington. I guess some one needs to tell him that the neocons are out of power. There was 5 min. in that time line, that is all it takes to launch one.
by trkingmomoe on Sun, 07/20/2014 - 5:05pm
If it was the rebels or the Russians, I wonder how Stephen Cohen will spin this.
by Aaron Carine on Sun, 07/20/2014 - 8:20pm