Its a Small Thing, Its Right, Do It

    The Penn State sexual abuse scandal was big news for a while, as it should have been. As it should be. Articleman presented here at Dagblog a long, well researched, well presented opinion piece which I felt made some good arguments. Others did as well. Respondents who disagreed with parts of A-man's argument made strong points as well.
     The main point of contention revolved around the issue of sanctions against those individuals directly involved versus actions penalizing the entire organization which provided the situation in which the crimes took place and then, as an organization, tried to hide the crimes so as to avoid any harm to Penn State and its idolized football coach, Joe Paterno.
     
     To provide protection to Penn State and to Joe and his successful program, the people in position to do so had to shield discovery of the crimes and shield the criminals. This protection of the overt criminal for the purpose of protecting the reputation and positions of persons in leadership positions who had power and prestige was itself a criminal act. This protection virtually assured that the criminal abuse at the heart of the many ensuing crimes would continue.

      I think few if any will disagree with what I have stated so far. I think that no one will deny that some corrective action needed to be taken and few will disagree that punitive action was/is both necessary and appropriate. That punitive action is only a part, though, of the action that needs be taken to lessen recurrences of abuses in the future.

     So what? you may be saying about now. That was so last-week and football season doesn't even start for a couple months and many don't even like football anyway.

      Yeah, we all got to vent our opinions and most opinions included combinations of pragmatism, legality, justice, and morality. I believe the only thing getting universal agreement is that everyone recognizes that a crime did occur which led to other crimes of different natures and that we should attempt to affect change for the better in our diligent oversight of institutions, and in our reactions when those institutions go wrong, so that the same crimes will be fewer in number going forward.

     Oh yeah, I almost forgot, how did the world outside the cozy little world of Penn State leadership come to know about the crimes in the first place? It was because a person who was a witness to one act of disgusting criminality reported it. His name was Mike McQueary.

     There were many in the Penn State tribe of fans who reacted in blind stupid angry defense of Joe Paterno, in defense of the entire football organization, and the entire University. Many of those directed a large part of their anger at McQuerry. If only he had STFU their hero would not have been harmed. Their blind stupidity would not have had to override any tingles to their conscience which could have been avoided if they had been allowed to wallow in willful blind ignorance of things no person could justify and no person with an honest conscience would try to justify. Their team's chances of winning the next national title would not have been harmed. Their joy in cheering for their team would not have been interrupted by anything more important.  "God damn Mike McQuery" was no doubt on the minds and lips of many. That's just the way [some {most?}] people are.

    That same reaction was/is evident in the case of Bradley Manning.
    Manning revealed many crimes even worse in their actual nature, and  magnitudes worse in the number of victims. Manning revealed things we didn't want to know, that we didn't want to believe, and so we didn't want to hear them. Besides, for many the revelations could, because they should, hurt their particular chosen team. His leaks revealed a festering sickness within the team they, myself included, wanted to admire.  Certainly not that everything about that team and all its members is bad, but that within its broader scope there are things that are just wrong. Things that need changing for reasons that are pragmatic for the purpose of maintaining a functioning democracy, that need changing so as to work towards a moral and ethical and sustainable government which honors justice for all. Things which, if allowed exposure to our conscience, simply cannot be ignored.

     There are those who would have, if they could have, punished and silenced McQuery so as to protect their position. Joe Paterno and the President of Penn State would have kept their jobs, the teams fans could all have cheered on with a clear conscience, and Sandusky could have continued butt-fucking young boys. Win-win for all the wrong doers involved. Punishing McQuery would have been wrong, but if corrupted leaders could have done so they would have done so for their own cynical purposes.
     
    There are many on all sides of the U.S. political spectrum who said,  "God damn Bradley Manning" when he revealed wrongdoing to the general public after his attempts to go through the chain of command were ignored. Many of the reasons for this reaction parallel those of people who had strong defensive feelings about the Penn State scandal and Manning revealed many crimes even worse in their actual nature, and  magnitudes worse in the number of victims, than anything which happened at Penn State.
     Manning has been demonized by some as a traitorous individual who must be sick to have done what he did.  This is done for various reasons and one of the wrong reasons for some is simply that he hurt their team. He took some of the shine off the perceived glow. If only he had just STFU like most of us would have done if faced with the same risk he bravely faced.  We would not have to decide if the bigger game is more important than any single team. We would not have to worry that the crimes he revealed would cause some to become "Ones Who Walk Away From Happy Valley" and hurt our team by doing so.
     We can examine and judge the actions of various actors in situations like at Penn State abstractly from a safe distance. Bradley Manning found himself in a very tough situation that he never chose, that he never volunteered for, of needing to take a great personal risk to do the right thing and try to positively affect the ongoing criminality he had become aware of. I believe he passed that unwanted test of courage and commitment to his oath as a soldier, and to his conscience as a human, with flying colors. He acted heroically and now people with the power to do so are making him pay a terrific price for his action, partly to warn off anyone else who might have courage approaching that which he acted on.

    I do not have that kind of courage but I can do a couple tiny things. I can support Manning with a few bucks and I can sign Daniel Ellsberg's petition in support of Manning. Its a small thing, its right, and I hope others will consider doing it.

    http://web.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/search?si=9&so=0&sc=8748&st=message...

    Comments

    So anyone who criticizes what Manning did is blinded by team spirit?


    That seems to me to be a fairly shallow and narrow observation on what I have written. Of coarse not everyone who criticizes manning is blinded by team spirit, but obviously there are some for whom that is the case. There are some, I believe, that, based on their history of stated values and concerns, for whom no other excuse or explanation for their positions on Manning's treatment presents itself. That observation includes the general tenor of expressed feeling among Democrats and others who objected to torture, wrongful use of secrecy, intimidation and other attacks on whistle blowers, etc, during the previous administration, not just participants here at Dag.
     Because those who do criticize Manning, or merely refuse to show support for him out of a team loyalty to the current administration are on the same team that I want to support in most cases, it is the members of that team that I am trying to speak to.
     I do not expect that you would argue against the obvious, to me at least, truth that Manning's treatment would be strongly criticized by many here if it was being done by the previous administration, but who are silent  now that our guys are the doers of the deeds. I know that has been said many times, but that does not make it any less true. How would you explain that? Or, do you think that I am mistaken?


    'Now that our guys are the doers of the deeds".

    What 'deeds' of our guys and their guys, and what crimes and what criminals did Manning expose?

    Does the treatment of Manning compare to the supreme international crime of starting an aggressive war in Iraq, or sanctioning starting another one with Iran?


    What 'deeds' of our guys and their guys,...

    The tortuous incarceration of Manning for eleven months was a crime. Doing it for the purpose of scaring other legitimate would-be whistle-blowers is a crime, or should be if it is not.

    ...and what crimes and what criminals did Manning expose?

    Is that a serious question? 

    Does the treatment of Manning compare to the supreme international crime of starting an aggressive war in Iraq, or sanctioning starting another one with Iran?

    No, Manning is just one person, but if your question is meant as a defense of Manning's treatment then isn't it true by the same implied logic that there has only ever been one crime and whatever that crime was will no longer be a crime, or at least should be accepted as insignificant, as soon as something worse is done? How could the start of an aggressive war in Iraq be a crime worth mentioning when Hitler started a bigger one? How could the public torture of one person be wrong when previously many had been tortured?
     And, if starting another war in Iran or anywhere else is wrong, wouldn't it be more likely that it would happen if the ones who wrongly push for it can get away with lies and propagandistic bs under the cover of misused secrecy to monger for that war because legitimate whistle-blowers had been scared off.


    I suppose it's a waste of time asking 'A Guy Called Lulu' serious questions.

    Many here forget, or refuse to remember, who got the nation into our two failed wars, and who got our troops out of one of them, over the objections of GOP presidential candidates John McCain and Mitt Romney.

    I like your 'if starting a war with Iran or anywhere is wrong'....decisive statement there alright-not. I would say starting wars IS wrong, and 'it would be more likely' the same Party that started the last two would be more likely to start another. Duhhhhhh!

    But let's just bash Obama, a favorite activity around DAG.


    .

    Attack poster's name? Check Other side worse? Check "Many here" abstract strawman? Check Blatant absurd claim? Check

    Peoples' beliefs are influenced by their political commitments and identifications--you, me, everyone. We tend to be more critical of people we oppose and less critical of people we support.

    Now suppose I were to say that the reason you defend Manning is because you oppose Obama? After all you don't like or trust Obama, so it seems just as likely that you're biased against his administration.

    BS, right? I mean, if you're intellectually honest, you'll admit that you have some biases just like everyone else, but you still have specific reasons for opposing Manning's treatment, and you believe that if it were some other president you would feel the same way.

    Well, surprise surprise, those who are critical of Manning feel the same way. They have their reasons, and while they might acknowledge some bias, they believe that their position does not depend on who happens to be president.

    Now there are certainly pure hacks out there--people who are such slaves to partisanship that they believe whatever benefits the party--but what's the point of arguing with them?  As for the rest, by broad-brushing them as hacks, you eliminate the possibility of argument.

    Personally, I think your analogy is flawed. My position on Manning is complicated, as is my position on Obama, but I'm not particularly inclined to explore either in a context where my beliefs are airily dismissed as team spirit.


    Lulu lightly phrased it "one of the reasons", i think made it clear d oesnt apply to all. why attack him as if calling all who disagree obamabots? He didn't "airily dismiss" anything.

    So who is he trying to convince? Is there anyone who actually believes that the only reason they support the prosecution of Manning is b/c Obama said so. Everyone has their rationale, even if it's intellectually dishonest.


    Peoples' beliefs are influenced by their political commitments and identifications---

    My expectations are influenced by the [apparent] political commitments of people in general and by politicians on the occasions when I believe them.

    Now suppose I were to say that the reason you defend Manning is because you oppose Obama?

    You would be wrong. I oppose Obama because of what I see as the indefensible way he has handled the Manning case.

    BS, right? I mean, if you're intellectually honest, you'll admit that you have some biases just like everyone else, but you still have specific reasons for opposing Manning's treatment, and you believe that if it were some other president you would feel the same way.

    Yes, I have my biases just like everyone else and when they take an unexpected stand, individually if prominent or as a group if it is an identifiable one, or no stand at all when I would have expected one, I then wonder if a bias is the explanation and I take the liberty of wondering what the nature of that bias is. Sometimes I conclude that they, 'they' meaning a vague conglomeration like liberal Democrats, are being inconsistent at best and maybe intellectually dishonest. That is no more a swipe at you as an individual than anything in my root blog was.

    Well, surprise surprise, those who are critical of Manning feel the same way. They have their reasons, and while they might acknowledge some bias, they believe that their position does not depend on who happens to be president.

    Presumably everyone does have a reason. I don't think people just spin a wheel of many reasons and take the one that the pointer stops on. But, for you to claim that they, which is an all inclusive 'they' as you put it, believe their position does not depend on who is President is as obviously wrong for SOME Democrats as it is for so many Republicans. Especially the pundits and those who let the pundits think for them. 

    Now there are certainly pure hacks out there--people who are such slaves to partisanship that they believe whatever benefits the party--but what's the point of arguing with them?  As for the rest, by broad-brushing them as hacks, you eliminate the possibility of argument.

    You are doing a bit of broad brushing as I see it. My comments were not directed at 'hacks' who would support anything their leadership did, it was intended to try to nudge those who can recognize that their leadership may be wrong about some things. Maybe some very important things. Maybe the leaders are making a mistake that a nonhack would like to see corrected even if they give that leader their overall support.  

    My position on Manning is complicated, as is my position on Obama,...

     Perhaps you think my positions on Manning and Obama are simplistic.

    Your response and my going back to see how you might have arrived at it does makes evident some problems with the construction of my blog but I stand by the mixed messages I was trying to convey.
     I should have clearly separated at least two ideas.
     First is the question of innocence or guilt. I believe Manning did the action, the release of the tapes, but is innocent of wrongdoing. I would argue that point in hopes of increasing the public support for him. I believe he both needs it and deserves it. I believe his case is very significant and should be paid close attention to. Its handling will continue to speak volumes about the nature of our national leadership as well as our national psyche in its various manifestations.
     Secondly is the question of how he was treated after his arrest and, as a sub-topic, why he was treated the way he was for eleven months. The decisions to inflict that treatment in a very public way by whoever made it and then the decision to condone that treatment by the President who is Commander in Chief over those inflicting that treatment also says volumes.
     I concede that my analogy was poorly constructed.  Part of the evidence for that is the fact that you seemed to completely misunderstand it. I intended to draw parallels to the Penn State case with the highly emotional analysis aimed at understanding the crime, who were the criminals, and the right way to respond to it, with the many times more important case surrounding the reasons for Manning's document dump and his subsequent treatment. I did not 'airily' dismiss anybody's conclusions and I certainly did not airily dismiss your particular beliefs on the subject, I don't even know them except for what you said just above.

     


    Most people *are* intellectually dishonest. Including me. Now that I'm fed up with Obama, it takes longer for me to give him credit where he deserves. With Obama in a continual fight w GOP, supporters may be reluctant to give comfort to the enemy, etc., and find themselves supporting normally unappealing policy positions or be less willing to admit policies are not just "complicated" - a weasel - but simply wrong Supporters of Joe Paterno probably had a tough time finding the right time to lose that support last year.

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