jollyroger's picture

    Obama "Agonistes"--shoo-in for the 2011 Fortney

    Update in bold

    The last vestige of self respect has been stripped.  This guy is hapless and hopeless.  I pray that he is being blackmailed, because otherwise he is the worst kind of punk. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory!

    I have called him cool like Lester Young.  I have called him the greatest political counterpuncher in history, and a fighter like Ali.  I have touted him for world president, and I have reviled him as a gutless punk, a disappointment, and a nasty word derived from a brand of cookie implying that his ostensible race was merely a sham envelope.

    Because I live in hope, how could I fail to be (not for the first time) stirred to new belief by the choice to "bring on the pain"--to schedule his jobs speech to a joint congressional session at the very moment the Repugnants are bringing in the clowns (query:will they ride in a miniature Rambler as an homage to George Romney)

    Perhaps he merely feels himself boxed in by events, forced to adopt a populism and truculence foreign to his nature.  Perhaps he is merely setting us up to be, once more, the infuriated, pissed off and pissed upon left.

    Withal, anything that discomfits the chairman of the Repugnants gladdens my heart, even if only for a fleeting second.

    Go get'em Prez.  Precious Blood of the Sweet Baby Jesus, I'm lookin' for a fighter.

    We will have to rename The Fortney. It will be The Barry, and the depantsed ankle grabber will have tell-tale big ears...

    Comments

    Mr Boehner, where are the jobs? Mr. Boehner,....

    Call them out,

    Day in and Day out.


    (We need Burgess Meredith now, more than ever)...Get up Prez...get up offa that floor or you'll just be a broke down palooka the rest of your life...Get UP...GET U P


    Day in and Day out.

    Dick?


    Richard Day, esq. is only available Day In.

    Day Out (as in nightime) he turns into the incredible hulk, as I have previously explained.


    Taking my name in vain again? hahahahahahaha

    I'm green in envy at times I would suppose!


    I will confess to harboring unseemly pride for "grotesquely muscled torso"...


    It would be a violation of Boehner's oath of office, to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, if Boehner did not agree to convene Congress at the time and place that the President thinks is proper, National Archives, Article II section 3 of the Constitution:

     

    ....he (the President) may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper...

     

    The oath of office:

    5 U.S.C. 3331:

     

    "An individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services shall take the following oath: 'I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.'"

    The question being, will Obama wield the power of his office, for a change, against these pompous pontificating blowhards?

     


    As my pathetic flickering ember of hope would manifest, I'm rootin' for a flash of fight from Prez (I only call him that when I'm feeling relatively favorably disposed--a rare occurrence these days.)

    I really don't know why he ran for the office if he didn't want to be in charge...witness, eg, his inexplicable failure to name judges for openings that persist year after year.

    Oh well, wtf, we live in hope(y changey) , as the expression goes.  


    Obama caved, same ole same ole, doormat for the GOP. He says he is going to 'challenge them to act on jobs'.....YAWN...zzzzzzz

    ..and Sept 8th is the NFL season kickoff with the Packers to boot. If I watch anything it will be anything but......O.


    That's too funny and too sad at the same time.

    Care to amend your post, jolly?


    Jolly: ...even if only for a fleeting second.

    We'll have to check with the official timekeeper, but the discomfit may not have lasted even that long. I firmly believe that he will stick it to the GOP, and say, end the Bush tax cuts after perhaps his 4th or 5th term.


    to check with the official timekeeper

    I'm pretty sure Priebus lost not a beat of his black heart worrying that Obama might have grown a pair.

    No one except flamboyantly dressing third world heads of state has anythng to fear from Obama.


    Since I don't know the greek word for "cheese eating surrender monkey", I will content myself with Obama "Agonistes"--shoo in for 2011 Fortney.

    Because no politician who had the other party so squarely in his sights, holding all the cards, and the absolute power to enforce, (as ncd set forth above) could possibly cave unless, as I have said before, "extorted by the most exquisite blackmail..."

    Burned again.


    Yeah, but when Boehner demanded O run 5 laps around the reflecting pool for this brouhaha O told him no, and only did one lap. That takes some guts.


    Oh, sure, but Obama agreed to run the lap with a self inflicted wedgie, which counts for ten unwedged laps in any high school in the country


     too funny and too sad

    And how bizarre!  It's like challenging the school bully and when he meets you after gym you give him your lunch money AND a pizza you bought specially for the occasion.

    Why would you pick a fight you were determined to throw?


    Where's DD to deliver the comment-of-the-day award?


    Where's DD

    He's in the gym...


    he is going to 'challenge them 

    The only thing he will challenge them to is a game of "old maid".

    At that game, he is a sure winner.

    (disclaimer: no reference to actual unmarried women is intended, nor do I intend to deprecate the choice many wise women make to keep their distance from the creeps we call men)


    'He' meaning Boehner? Cause if O gets the queen he loses, if Boehner gets it the country goes into default, or....the hand is dealt over again?


     Someday this episode will be the subject of a  PhD thesis, but I'm not sure if it will be in Political Science or Abnormal Psychology.


    I'm rootin' for a flash of fight from Prez....I really don't know why he ran for the office if he didn't want to be in charge..

    Oy, say it ain't so, jolly:

    et tu, onea those that projected one's self onto the clear-to-many Obambi image?

    Caption: Screenshot from Jibjab's July, 2008 video Time for Some Campaignin'

    I am reminded of all the lectures I read from Obambi fans in 2008 regarding his being teh Mr. Community Organizer, so different from your average pol, not trying to lead, and goodness no, not wanting to fight, but someone who would rather be in the background enabling all those other folks to get along (Rodney King fashion) whilst striving to accomplish stuff, whatever they may desire (whether he liked it himself or not) by consensus building.

    Also too for some reason I am reminded of the banishment of Ms. Maureen Dowd to one of the lower circles of hell (below Paul Krugman, also consigned for other offenses) by the very same Obambi fans for

    1) calling him Obambi, and

    2) saying stuff like this, July 6, 2007, in "Can He Unleash the Force?"

    But often he reverts to Obambi, tentative about commanding the stage and consistently channeling the excitement he engenders. At times, he seems to be actively resisting his phenom status and easy appeals to emotion. When he should fire up, he dampens. When he should dominate, he’s deferential. When he should lacerate, he’s languid.

    Futilely, he chafes at the notion that debates and forums are rituals for showing a sense of command with a forceful one-liner, a witty takedown or a “shining city on a hill” moment. He keeps trying to treat them as places where he can riff, improvise, soothe, extrapolate or find common ground. He skitters away from the subtext of political contests, the need to use your force to slay your opponents.

     


     projected one's self

    Guilty as charged.  If I were President, there would be a pile of bleached bones where the Repugnants used to have their parties...So, naturally, I figured that anyone who would take the trouble to run for and win the office, wanted to kick some ass.  Otherwise, why bother.

     

    I remember how Coulter used to deride him for his 164 votes of "present" in the Illinois State Senate--notwithstanding her terminal bad taste, she had a point.  The man is sent to make a decision, yes or no, on the important issues of the day.  Why vote "both" or "neither"?

    Should'a seen this comin'.  Oh,Hillary, why did you run so stoopid?


    Still, it is interesting that back in the day you used the Lester Young analogy (of which wikipedia describes as "playing with a cool tone and using sophisticated harmonies") which is like what Dowd wrote in the 2007 excerpt: He keeps trying to treat them as places where he can riff, improvise, soothe, extrapolate or find common ground. Half of you had it right.

    I've read a couple of Dowd golden oldies the past week for another reason. After doing that, was thinking that she has been woefully underestimated the last few years as someone past her prime. The lady learned her stuff young, as a campaign reporter on the road, and her understanding of what's going on in the political world is deep and intuitive; I suspect she bears more listening to in the upcoming year than she's going to get.


    This never would'a happened if Hunter Thompson had been alive....the good Doctor would have had Obambi's number, and the Fear and Loathing would have flowed down like the blessed balm in Gilead (now there's a metaphor mashup you gotta love...)

     

    And, speaking of Hunter Thompson, where the fuck have you been?


    If I were President, there would be a pile of bleached bones where the Repugnants used to have their parties…

    And a pile of bleached blondes somewhere else?


    Hey!  Those unfortunate enough to have failed in the universal aspiration towards blondness, show a positive and laudable attitude in enlisting the wonders of modern chemistry to alleviate their suffering, and the suffering of all mankind, oppressed by a shortage of natural blondes.  

     Besides, we are warned that the passage of time will only make more acute this shortage...it's kind of like the rising sea level..  Inexorable, tragic, and looming.


    we are warned that the passage of time will only make more acute this shortage.

    There will be plenty of white haired, retirement community blondes. It's all good.


    I find myself oddly unconsoled...

    I wonder what Dowd thought of the take down of Donald Trump.

    The potential match up with Perry will be fascinating. Perry is so full of himself that he will be taking greater and greater risks to land a punch. My guess is Perry will end up punching himself.

    If anyone could have thrown Obama off his game it was McCain. I thought McCain's line, "I am not Bush, if you wanted to run against Bush you should have done that 4 years ago", was a potential takedown but Obama was steady. Then McCain's circling around him, very disrespectful, but didn't work the way Bush's body language tactic had worked against Gore.


    When I was out canvassing for Obama during the 2008 primaries, an old woman told me that Obama couldn't win the general election because the Republicans would "eat him alive." She was wrong about the election but not all wrong.


    Oh ye of little faith. Obama is playing 31-dimensional chess right now, but y'all just can't see it.

    If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

    It's the long game, but you must be patient. You'll see that I'm right in about, oh, 2136.


    I swear before Jesus, I don't know why this punk ran for president.

    I mean, it can't be that he didn't foresee a beef from the pugs when he scheduled his speech.

    So if he wasn't "itching for a fight", why start one?

    Can there possibly be some alternative universe in which this fool thinks he comes out of this looking good?

    Maybe he had spilkes about the possibility that he had not alienated each and every one of his supporters, and wanted to do a little mopping up of the die hards....


    If O had stuck to his date on this everyone would tune in or check to see what he said, caving like this beforehand deflates the whole thing before he even opens his mouth. It is clear he is putty in GOP hands.


    putty 

    You insult  "putty"--putty eventually hardens and holds your window firmly.

    Obama only dreams of having the strength of putty.


    The funny thing is if you look at comments on this at the NYT a lot of Obama supporters thought that Obama had finally 'taken off the gloves' and was going to stick it to the GOP.

    This reminds me of when he fired that EEO woman just because Rush and the GOP were jumping on her over some totally out of context remarks on her childhood. The guy doesn't even know this screw up just stamps his wimpoid tissue ticket, that is for any that still had hope he had some backbone in there somewhere.

    Perhaps a Perry presidency would be more tolerable. Our employment is going nowhere, no matter how low they cut taxes on the rich. Maybe Seaton was right, 8 years of disaster under Bush were not enough 'education' for the voters of America.


    a lot of Obama supporters thought that Obama had finally 'taken off the gloves' and was going to stick it to the GOP.

    I think it would be fair to say that such was the thrust of my original post.

    I swear I just don't get it...why would he start a fight just so he could take a dive?


    Last night's comment was indeed satire, thanks for noticing.  If I had your awesome writing skills I would be following in the path of someone like Charles Willeford or Goerge Higgins and making a fortune.

    Of course the base is pissed, I want this guy to throw some punches. I'm going to keep being pissed until the day I go in and vote for him. But are these outcomes bad?

    Republicans will have made asses of themselves the night before. I want people to tune into Simi Valley and discover how ridiculously extreme the Republicans are. The tea party is painting itself into a corner ,with views that are opposite that of 70% of the population on the issues of: the need to save SS, the need to raise taxes on the rich, the desire to keep the EPA, the importance of education, and comfort level with religious zealotry. The Republicans will continue to brand themselves as out of line with majority views. Nothing lost there. As for jobs, they have no solutions other than to cut the EPA, cut taxes, destroy SS. I think Obama may have the issues pretty well tee-ed up.

    While the base is pissed, there is more buzz about Obama's speech. winkAs for NFL, in my experience it is mostly a negotiation with the fair sex. So, in this case, first we watch the debate, then we watch football, sort of.

    O.K. hit me with your best punch.

     


    And then you'll spend another four years being pissed after voting for him ... and that's if he wins.

    Great stratergy.


    Great stratergy.

    Oh my gosh, Howard, the champ looks like that really hurt...I'm not sure he can stay on his feet...he's on the ropes now...he's praying for the bell...Oh! Another jab from Foreman, but the heat seems to be getting to the Mauler from Fremont, and OH, there's the bell.


     making a fortune.

    I can haz munney?  Ceiling cat be prazed!


    You just don't get the reverse psychology thing. Obama set them up. Obama knew they would screw with the date because it was the same night as the clown show in Simi Valley. If Rethugs thought they had anything going they wouldn't care if Obama was the same night. Instead they're afraid to go up against him.

    In this revised and intended scenario the media will have a field day with the clown show Wednesday night and Thursday. Obama's speech on Thursday comes before the NFL game, so in the aftermath no one is going to listen to the commentary from the thugs that night.

    Uh, well that's it. How does that work for ya?


    I'm a little dizzy after reading that...I'll let you know after I lay down for a while and the room stops spinning.


    I don't think anyone set anyone up.  This is just two politicians not paying attention and not thinking about what they were doing.


    Ya think?  Am I missing some detail from NCD's fairly sraightforward argument that Obama had the power, if he chose, to squeeze Boehner on this?

     

    BTW, don't let's force each other to use the little "irony" coming winkeydink smilie in fear that an argument obviously meant as satire will deceive someone with your political chops....jus sayin.


    Now the nation will be listening to the Republicans,

    "Tell us all you hopefuls, how are you going to create jobs" ?

    (What kind of jobs? When the Chinese export their products to America, do they have to meet the same stringent regulations, the republicans bemoan?)

    While we will all be focused on jobs; how about protectionism, homeland industries.

    Or will it be give us more NAFTA?    

    Everyone focused on jobs, and the underwater mortgage holders still languishing. Languishing because this group of leaders is blind, and they want you to be diverted otherwise you'll notice, they are clueless.  

    Except when it comes to "Show me the money"


    Or will it be give us more NAFTA?  

    Yeah, but patents too.  also.

    That's a powerful job creator (If you live in S. Korea), or, like your humble interlocutor, you are temping as an inventor till you can whip your broken body back into shape to return to your chosen *vocation...

     

    *Iron John's Sons-(say it fast...) "Pre Historic Courtship Displays for Post Modern Women..."


    The voters decided to elect more Republicans and this is one result. Pelosi would have agreed to the original time, Boehner won't. Could Obama legally take over the House's property if Boehner disagreed with the time? How many people will tune in to see the GOP debate versus how many will tune in to listen to the President? I think the numbers will favor the President.

    All that has been proven thus far is that Boehner and his cohorts are obstructionists. DeMint threatened to  oppose a unanimous consent agreement to allow the President to speak if the Wednesday date did not change. DeMint's action would have been unprecedented historically.

    The WH has said this is silly and that Boehner knew about the GOP debate when he was told about Obama's date request initially.


    It's weird to see all the blogging guys who want to fight, literally fight, this time over a time for a speech. Wow.  It is as if you think you hired Mohammed Ali as President! Fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, like the Jets vs the Sharks, where we fight over everything, cause we are in a gang and we hate the other gang. I just don't know that a country can run very well if this is our attitude. 

    “If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. ... We need not wait to see what others do. ”

    Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

    If we could change ourselves, well that is the toughest demand of all, but most people only see that others should change, they never see it in themselves, but we should remember that personal and social transformation go hand in hand.


    Well put.


    Thanks.


    All he has to do is tell the Secret Service to take over House chambers. We need Obama to be more like a dictator. The President has to be invited to speak to Congress.

    The GOP is on record as not caring about jobs for the American people. This move by Boehner confirms their unpatriotic stance of the GOP.


    It's all about the election.

    Republicans: One of these folks is Obamas replacement.

    Obama: All the republicans want to do; is get me out of office


    While we await the next Republican President to inflict more pain on the voting public so that the public gets the idea of what GOP rule means, the DOJ is tying to make sure GOP suppression of minority voters does not go forward nationwide.

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/08/31/308619/justice-department-pu...


    Huntsman......Not too far right,  JUST RIGHT

    Huntsman; the moderate republican

                    Centrist

    Obama; the moderate republican?


    Neither moderate Republican (your definition) would pass muster with the general GOP primary voter. There will only be some version of a wingnut elected during the GOP primary processs.


    The wingnuts are tools to keep the base fired up. 

    No time to remain complacent, keep feeding the mad dogs, the red meat.

    The moderates of the party, presently enjoying the pit fights, will eventually flex their muscle.

    The Goldilock's will find Obama's is just to luke warm/cold, they'll also find, the Tea party wingnuts are just to hot.

    Since the Democrats are hell bent in avoiding another Democratic contender to run against Obama, that leaves so many more options on the right.

    Just a little right of center will be perceived as "just right"

    Ask Vick; No one wants to bet on a cowering dog.

    (before anyone attacks me; I am not promoting animal abuse, I am not looking for abuse either )

    Better to know, the one you vote for, has the conviction and courage to FIGHT. 

    We are at war( ideologically speaking) This President failed to lead an effective opposition. Instead of owning up to the leaders inability, blame the other side for presenting an opposition in a war?

    Who would have thought, the opposition would resist? Especially when they knew they could get the oppositions commander to bend to their will?  

    The Democrats weren't looking for Neville, we were looking for a Grant or Sherman. 

    Obamas volunteer army, rejected his objectives and his leadership.

    Obama; " Did I tell you there would be no public option, did I also tell you there would be no help for the homeowners and did I tell you I would lean to the right on most issues?

    The charge reached the Union lines but was turned back with huge loss of life. The charge was one of General Lee's greatest mistakes. It was reported that when Lee asked Pickett to rally his division in case of a counter attack by Union forces, Pickett said, "General Lee, I have no division".  


    Whenever the opposition party is trying to retake the Presidency, there are always more options (candidates) being put up by the opposition. The wingnuts control the GOP, don't expect moderates to raise their heads this cycle. By the way, who are the GOP moderates in the race?

    The Democratic troops were busy blogging until they saw the impact of actually electing wingnuts in Florida, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin, etc. then they took to the streets.


    rmrd The President has the explicit power in the US Constitution to convene one or both houses of Congress on whatever date he alone decides, see above. This time they did not even have hostages.

    This is reportedly the first time in the history of the Republic that the House has turned down a President in a request to address Congress.

    Who frankly cares what Obama 'challenges' the GOP to do when the GOP emasculates his clear, unambiguous Constitutional Presidential power, and Obama plays the doormat? If he can't stand up to them on such a simple scheduling issue, how will he fare on substantial issues?  The GOP and many others will ignore him and his speech. 

    Voters may remember this: that Obama did not care enough about jobs to wield his power as President to force an unwilling GOP to show up on the day he picks,  to listen to the demands of a nation for action on jobs.


    The GOP is unwilling to listen to the President talk about how to create jobs, I agree that that is the take home message. Would fighting this as a Constitutional issue delay the speech even further?

     


     delay the speech even further?

    How delay...Obama shows up, the Dems show up, the 
    Pugs do as they please,. the cameras roll.


    "and in Case of Disagreement between them"

    Does that mean a time set by agreement between the Senate and the House, not originally set by the President? Or does it mean that time President sets the time and the House and Senate have no options?


    It's moot now, so I'm disinclined to do the research.  My PhD dissertation (the one that's slightly overdue...what's forty years amongst scholars...) was on Gouverneur Morris, who actually wrote the constitution, after taking home the Report of the Committee of the Whole. 

    An aside, he slipped in a few changes that weren't voted in, but my point is that if pressed, I could probably muster the heroic level of concentration (chemical assistance assumed, of course) to answer your question.

    Maybe NCD is lurking with support for our now futile argument.


    ....he (the President) may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper...

    Disagreement here appears to refer to disagreement "with respect to the time of adjournment" (ending a specially convened gathering of Congress), not the time of convening.  The first part of this section says the President may convene both Houses or either, but says nothing about scheduling.  How to interpret that?  Nor is "extraordinary Occasions" itself defined.  Does high unemployment asserted by the President to represent an "extraordinary Occasion" count?  What happens if there is disagreement between the President and Congress on whether the "Occasion" is "extraordinary"?  

    The Constitution leaves a lot unresolved, unaddressed, or open to interpretation, whether some constitutional originalist or anyone else wants to interject their own interpretation or not.  Here as in so many places.  I've not seen commentary by any constitutional scholars trying to address these questions--perhaps others have.  On the face of it, it doesn't seem entirely clear or obvious that the President had unilateral scheduling authority in this case.  I understand the custom has been one of deference to the President.  But has a President ever sought to address Congress on the occasion of a previously scheduled presidential debate held by the opposition party?


    As the resident constitutional scholar (ABD) I will go out on a limb and define "extraordinary" as other than nine to five, monday through friday.

    Hence, game set and match to the manly president.

    Our current president, however, sucks air.


    Thanks for the interpretation.


    Sure.  Worth every penny you paid for it, as they say.  

    My old constitutional law books not being accessible, I looked through a couple of books that were--Plain, Honest Men, by Richard Beeman, and America's Constitution: A Biography, by Akhil Reed Amar, to see if they had anything to say on the origins and specific meaning of that particular provision.

    From Amar I am reminded that the President was established as the one constitutional officer always in session and presiding over the whole nation.  On April 15, 1861, two days after Fort Sumter fell, Lincoln convened a special session of Congress to begin July 4, five months ahead of schedule.  I guess he considered the beginning of the Civil War to be an emergency warranting his use of that power and permitting him to act militarily to try to preserve the Union prior to any Congressional authorization of war.  Go figure.  So far as I know, there was no Democratic party presidential debate scheduled for that day, four months or so following his first inauguration.  I don't happen to know if he delivered a speech to Congress on July 4, 1861.  I am pretty sure the Packers and the Colts were not scheduled to kick off the 1861 NFL season on that date. 

    If I have time later tonight I'll google around to see if I can find interpretation on the specifics of this provision from another constitutional law scholar in addition to what Amar wrote about it.  Unless someone else beats me to it.

     


    Thanks again


    US Presidents have exercised this power 27 times, the latest being Truman in 1948 when the Republican Congress adjourned in July of that presidential election year (with Dewey measuring the curtains for the White House, appearing to be a lock to defeat Truman) leaving lots of business unattended to, in Truman's view:

    http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Turnip_Day_Session.htm

    That article notes (italics mine):

    On 27 occasions, presidents have called both houses into extraordinary session to deal with urgent matters of war and economic crisis.  

    So apparently Presidents have used this power historically to try to prod or force Congress to address what in their view were economic crises (as well as war and peace matters) they believed would otherwise, left to Congress, not be attended to adequately.

    In the current context there is no indication or suggestion Congress has packed its bags for the rest of this year and next.  Again, not having dug further, it looks as though Presidents convened Congress with the expectation that it would deal legislatively with matters the President believed needed to be dealt with legislatively, not just to deliver a speech to Congress.  Although they may also have delivered speeches to welcome the members back.


    A note on word usage in 1700's, Oxford says under 'adjourn'

    ORIGIN ME (in the sense ‘summon someone to appear on a particular day’)


    It is interesting to me to consider how it might have played out if Obama had stood his ground and declared his Constitutional right to convene a joint session of the Congress. What if the Republican leadership simply refused? What then? Impeach them? Call them poopy-heads? What if they said OK but just didn't show up? If any single member failed to show there would be no penalty so what if they all just called in sick? [Who would argue that the pricks aren't sick?]
     The Constitutional right to call the joint session seems to have no teeth with which to force compliance by any member who doesn't wish to cooperate or who might jump at the chance to demonstrate their disrespect. Making a Constitutional issue in this case would seem to be even one more level of bad strategy.


    It would show the Republicans don't respect the Constitution, that they have blatantly and willingly violated their oaths of office.


    And we need more evidence of this?


    I think there is no doubt that the pugs could boycott en masse without penalty save in the commentariat.

    That said, I Obama would have come out stronger than the present arrangement, and his "srong leader" poll score badly needs shoring up, so this advisor (pissing in the wind alert...) says he should have thrown down..


    the President has to be invited

    That's not my reading of NCD's constitutional quote above...if you are correct, than Obama was a schmuck to get into this pissing match--which it was, notwithstanding TMac's very accurate assessment of the whole tempest in a teapot quality.  

    If  NCD is correct, Obama is a punk.

    Either way, not good for our side.


    See my above response at 5:08 PM


    Withal, a schmuck or a punk...something of a coin toss at this point.


    That sounds all Noble.

    But you do remember Gandhi was assassinated?

    Two live dogs is better than one dead lion.

    The best defense is a good offense.


    Gandhi was also primarily striving to avoid the partition of post-colonial India, in which he failed.

    Gandhi was arrested and imprisoned by the British, and what 3 generations of British and Indians had worked to create, a united India, was torn apart by the arrogant and cavalier Mountbatten.


    There are lots of different ways to assert oneself, as you know, tmac. 

    If Obama were to come out and be more assertive in a way that's dramatically out of the presidential persona he has established for himself at this point, say in a visibly very angry way, it may very well not come across well or be more helpful to him than not.  I don't think presidents can be effective when their dominant public persona comes off as angry.  It just leaves the public feeling as though they aren't up to the job, and it's unsettling.

    Occasional anger, or more likely an occasional "edgy" public remark, isn't necessarily a problem for a president.  But it's unclear to me what that might look like in Obama in a way that would be more helpful to him than not.

    There is the happy warrior model--FDR cheerfully welcoming the hatred of his most hating political adversaries.  Reagan was a happy warrior, seemingly almost always doing what he was doing with grace and a smile, whether it was firing the PATCO workers or whatever.  There was an English professor at my college, not mine, who was nicknamed by some of his students "The Smiling Screw".  That could have been Reagan's nickname.

    Clinton was assertive at times in gaining the advantage on his opponents, almost always in ways that were relatively subtle and clever and did not publicly convey the sharp anger and vitriol he often directed at, or shared with, his aides.  

    If this president does figure out how to be more assertive, and effectively so, it's going to have to be in his own way, almost surely not an in-your-face way.  That's just not who he is and because that isn't who he is, doing it that way probably would only make him look desperate and off kilter.  But that doesn't mean he can't figure out his own way or ways if he concludes that he needs to do more of that. 

    I have to think what most folks here actually desire are the results of effective assertiveness, manifested in better policies and policy proposals, as well as in subtle, intangible subtexts this president creates in his conduct of the job--not the appearance of some intense combative attitude for its own sake.       

    Given how he has sought to govern so far, this president faces a tricky task going forward if in fact he does intend to give greater attention to differences with his opponents.  His dominant MO, only more pronounced since November, has been all about bipartisanship and seeking and finding common ground and accommodation.  To flip the switch to campaign mode, where he is suddenly highlighting differences with his opponents and aggressively so, is kind of inherently at odds with not only his conduct in office, but his major public message in office so far, which has been an almost purely "process" message stressing the need for bipartisanship and accommodation, as opposed to, say, a focus on one or a small number of signature issues. 


    My comment is about the need everyone seems to have to fight.  Blogginglanders in many places just want a giant fist fight, which speaks volumes about how Republicanism/Conservatism/Limbaughism/Coulterism has permeated these discussions, they often turn to violence in their rhetoric to make a half assed point.  I find it abhorrent that so called liberals would fall into this trap and it is a trap, one that relegates us to a kind of rhetorical balkinization of America, ( i.e. see Rick Perry).  Yes certainly we should endlessly fight, as we have seen in the past, it solves so many problems???

    So who are the Jets and who are the Sharks or for that matter who are the Montagues and the Capulets or the Hatfield's and McCoy's? I guess I should make sure I am on the right team for a change!

    Maybe I will just give in to Sweet Surrender! (That is a Bread reference in case you didn't catch that.)


    Carry on fighters, let me know what you win.


    Carry on fighters, let me know what you win.

    Is that you Tokyo Rose?

    Why should you fight GI?

     

    Obama is not our savior TMC, he's one of them.

    A vote for Obama, still keeps the banker class in power.


    If this president does figure out how to be more assertive

    Time is short.


    Yes, and Ghandi was also aggressive, disruptive and non-violent in very much seeking to change the hearts and minds, preferably, but at any rate the policies, of the British.  He knew his own mind very well and had at least one clear objective.  He got some of what he wanted, not all by any means (see comment noting the partition he so wanted to avoid).  He talked a great deal about changing oneself and that was powerful and probably also very necessary in keeping the civil disobedience effort as disciplined as it was (same with King).  But he was under no illusions about the need to prevail over others who he saw as inflicting injustice, and committed to doing so indefinitely unless and until they decided to, or were forced to, change their practice. 

    So I am challenging what seems to be your "either/or" characterization, in which one is either a Jet or a Shark, or Obama (who seems to me far more passive in trying to bring about change through prevailing over those blocking it than was, to take your example, Ghandi, as I tried to point out.)


     

    Ghandi is often quoted today to promote non-violence or even, as your comment seems to suggest, tmccarthy0, non-confrontation (no fighting). But the emphasis on non-violence can be misleading.

    It's been a while since I read much about Ghandi, so I hope you will forgive the following Wikipedia moment

    We often think of Ghandi simply as a leader who practiced and urged a turn-the-other-cheek philosophy. But Ghandi was laser-focused on achieving certain practical political and social ends, such as independence, equality, the end of poverty. His message was clear, results-oriented and intended to animate massive popular movements, potent enough to overturn oppressive governments and exploitative economic systems. These movements often resulted in bloody violence.

    His advocacy of non-violence was not beatific. During World War I he advocated recruiting Indians to fight alongside the British, as part of a strategy to advance the cause of Indian sovereignty. 

    "To bring about such a state of things we should have the ability to defend ourselves, that is, the ability to bear arms and to use them...If we want to learn the use of arms with the greatest possible despatch, it is our duty to enlist ourselves in the army."

    During WWII he advocated a trade: Indian war support for Indian independence.

    Here's another interesting quote:

    "Gandhi guarded against attracting to his satyagraha movement those who feared to take up arms or felt themselves incapable of resistance. 'I do believe,' he wrote, 'that where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.'"

    "At every meeting I repeated the warning that unless they felt that in non-violence they had come into possession of a force infinitely superior to the one they had and in the use of which they were adept, they should have nothing to do with non-violence and resume the arms they possessed before."

    Ghandi was not merely a saint, he was potent and practical fighter. He wanted to win. He was unapologetically partisan to his cause, and he, famously, practiced non-cooperation with his opponents. While he advocated personal and social transformation, he did not wait upon those aspirations to achieve his temporal goals. 

    Mohandas Ghandi was formidably confrontational. 

     

    over a time for a speech

    Symbols are poweful.

    Also, guys who start pissing contests are expected to have big dicks or not whip them out in the first place.

    Obama threw down, Carney talked shit, Boehner slapped his dick on the table and that was all she wrote.

    (Sorry for the guy talk, but we did not, alas, elect Hillary.)


    Look on the bright side--he almost stood strong for a whole day!

    If I were still President and the Dems tried that on me, I would hold the speech on the steps of Congress--make sure every Republican was there along with all of the press--and blasted the hell out of the Dems for not caring about the country. It would have been glorious!  They would never have dared!


    Is that because Dick Cheney told you to do that?


    .....I would hold the speech on the steps of Congress--make sure every Republican was there

    LOL


    You're either with me or against me.


    There is a certain clarity about that formulation, is there not?

    It might have sucked in terms of international war and peace, but party discipline is something you really will not find in the same sentence as the word "Democrat".


    Look on the bright side--he almost stood strong for a whole day!

    I don't know 'bout those Texas clocks, maybe they run fast, but it looked like three hours from dawn to sunset to me..


    The Post hacks strongest point seems to be Republican Senator DeMint's threats to 'tie the Senate in knots' if Obama interfered with his 'watching the Republican debate'.

    Since the GOP is not going to listen to, or do a damn thing Obama asks them to do, letting the GOP name the day seems absurd pandering. 


    Point of clarification. The GOP debate has been planned for a while. They had already named their day ... as part of a long-published and apparently responsibly scheduled political process.

    Obama doesn't run congress. If he wants to address them - it is at their pleasure, just as a White House meeting is at the pleasure of the President. In the end, he doesn't really have a choice.

    The weird thing about this is Democrats embracing the move as some kind of real political conflict with Obama being cagey or something. WTF? This just seems asinine. You really think "America" is going to enjoy watching a bunch of partisan bickering over a FUCKING SPEECH? Obama sure has the whole triangulating Dems thing nailed ... but he's clueless about the rest of us.

    The ironic thing is that he finally raised the fight instinct in those motivated by base partisanship for something ... and disappointed them too.


    What you say is broadly true, but once the decision was taken to bigfoot the debate, there was an internal mandate to follow through, and not to cave.

    That doesn't make the initial decision correct-your analysis of that is probably spot on, (as if anything by way of content was at issue here, which I would contest but that's no longer germane...).


    Your comment would normally be sound; however, when you become known as a pushover, every move you make begins to feed that perception. "Once you develop a theory, you process all information so as to confirm that theory."


    It appears Rushbo nixed the date first, then Speaker Boehner followed the orders of Rush, then Obama asked politely, 'Please, Mr. Speaker, may I have another.....date'.


    and a nasty word derived from a brand of cookie implying that his ostensible race was merely a sham envelope.

    That is the most delicately I have ever seen you put anything … ever. Hahaha.

    Seriously though. You thought scheduling a jobs speech right on top of a GOP primary debate was an example of “fighting” in some way? Absurd.

    As if, what, four years in, Obama just noticed we have a bit of a crisis and now jobs are some national emergency to him and must preempt all life IMMEDIATELY … to *give another fucking speech* … Seriously. A Speech. And it HAD to be right then. That’s among the biggest punk moves I’ve seen Obama make in an storied presidential career of being a total punk.

    It is to his nominal credit he backed down - he was wrong to begin with. Had he followed through, it would have made anything he said on jobs completely secondary to the breathless sturm-und-drang bullshit of his using this national crisis to piss on his political opponents and win a media cycle. Beyond lame. IMO, he would have totally shot himself in the foot.

    [originally commented slightly differently on your slightly different myFDL diary]


    - he was wrong to begin with.

    Maybe so, but once having taken the (high?) ground, he was a fool to give it back, and he looks (not for the first time) weak, which has become his achilles heel in general.

     

     most delicately ... put

    You must have been on vacation two weeks ago, when the actual use of the cookie's name brought the mods out in force and I was (shudder...) edited.  Apparently we are to say "the "O" word"....and so, little by little, the language becomes impoverished.

     

     


    Do you also feel the language became impoverished when the "N" word was taken away? Don't get me wrong, they're not in the same category, but I don't understand why you feel that being educated on the offensive nature of that word in that context is such a horrible thing.


    Well, in point of fact, and as I come from the ghetto where "N" this and "N" that abound, and granting that "I am your N" is the only permissable usage for a person not african-american, I would refer you to the linquistic history of such words as "queer", and "dyke" which have been robbed of their sting by being neutralized through usage by the ostensible targets (parenthetically, I was at Meow Mix one evening, falling in love with the lead singer of a girl band wearing the t-shirt "That's MR dyke to you...")

    So, yes, I am of the opinion that by clutching our skirts in horror we empower (rather than shun) the word(s).  Furthermore, as I mentioned at the time, the cookie word is one I have only heard used by african americans to exclude from the club of the oppressed those whose inner orientation is not, in fact, african american.

    Then there is the whole Huckleberry Finn thing, but let's not take that up now.

     


    It's not the word, it's how you use it. That applies to the "N" word*, "queer", "dyke", etc. When used for empowering, they're acceptable. When used to insult, they're not. No one here is going to ban you (or me) for using the word oreo in a non-insulting manner. If you were half-black and half-white yourself and used the word to describe yourself, there might be a couple of offended people here, but I'm confident that most people would accept it as your right to claim the word for yourself. Similarly, if people use the word "oreo" in order to explain its history (such as I'm doing here), most people would find it acceptable. This is similar to your Huck Finn analogy.

    The "horror" I felt (I wouldn't put it that strongly) wasn't at the use of the word or even really at the use of the word as a slur, I've heard it before many times. It was the use of the word as a slur by you that bothered me and many here. Take that as a compliment.

    *Yes, I'm aware of the contradiction in this one particular case.


    "If you were half-black and half-white yourself and used the word to describe yourself, there might be a couple of offended people here,....."

    "Oreo" as a metaphorical description of a person has nothing to do with being bi-racial.


    "Oreo" as a metaphorical description

    Well, thank you Jesus!  That's what I was driving at, but apparenly, despite Oxy M's generous remarks about my writing skills, was too clumsy to convey.

    I thought that my repeated reference to the use of the term in my experience ONLY by african-americans was elucidative.

    Just because Limbaugh thinks it's somehow clever to vary his racist shit with the use of the term doesn't mean that the inside/outside reference has anything to do with biracialism--there are *precious few african americans who are anything BUT biracial.

    (parenthetically, if it will get me any cred with Verified A, I passed as bi-racial at Brown.  Call me weird.)

     

    *No, I will go with the DNA...there are NO african americans who are anything but bi-racial, unless their family came from Africa after the holocaust ended in 1865.

     


    You don't need cred with me, but interestingly enough I went through a similar phase after being a lifeguard (and not using sunscreen). One co-ed I dated broke up with me when she found out that I had no known black heritage.


     Well, yes, that is interesting....I confess you are the only other guy I have encountered with the same story.  Other than the guy in the book, and I never met him, plus he did it in "blackface" whereas I just went on my natural Byelorussian/Austrian heritage  (a somewhat harder sell...)


    As for your last parenthetical, I suspect that a minority of African Americans are bi-racial (assuming race has any validity at all), since a large number of them also have native American ancestry and "bi-" is a prefix meaning two. wink


    Well;, going, as I said, with the DNA, we are ALL african american since Homo sapiens sapiens is considered to be descended from a small (2000 or so) breeding cohort located somewhere around South Africa, (circa I'm not quite sure when).

    Quiibbling about the "bi", as opposed to "multi" is a bit too cute--damn few native americans owned/raped enslaved women over 15 to 20 generations.

    Is that clear enough?

    (BTW, I'm fixin to come out of (lawyer) retirement to open up a can of serious reparations whup-ass, that will make Limbaugh eat his "welfare is reparations" bull shit, but I am not supposed to talk about the litigation strategy till we launch it, so shut my moutn.)


    Just watched the three part Nova series Becoming Human, which stated that: "The genetic record shows us that we are all descended from a small population of approximately 600 breeding individuals."  These individuals were part of those who went to South Africa around  140,000 years ago when climate change made most of Africa uninhabitable.  It was during this period that the evidence indicates a major transformation in the way of making tools and the use of symbols to convey information.  It would seem the pressures to adapt to a new ecosystem, and thus finding new food sources, such as shell fish, pushed the evolutionary change in regards to the brain.


    I've heard it used both ways. However, if you were using the word "oreo" to describe yourself in the sense you're referring to (being black but "acting white"), it would legitimately raise questions about what "acting white" meant. A legitimate use would be to talk about how society perceives that concept. Having taught at a majority black high school I cringed when it was used to describe black students who took their studies seriously. One student who was so averse to "acting white" alleged that math was a white man's subject. I explained to him that numerous advances in math can be traced to the Egyptians, and that any time he asked himself where some multiple of 60 came from, he should think of them. (They had a base-60 counting system.)


    acting white

    Try this on for size:

    Being black (for purposes of getting a cab in NYC, the acid test of racial identity as perceived by the outside world) and serving the interests of the ruling class, in order to accrue the benefits of membership in that class, despite realizing that from the point of view of the vast majority of that class, you are ot a member but a lacky.


    That's being a prick, and as someone with majority European ancestry, I resent, nay am offended, that you define that as "acting white". How. Dare. You.


    Just because you claim legitimate credit for being a traitor to your class and race (the only decent outlook) doesn't mean that the aryan brothers who-and you have to see this done to believe it exists-will touch their finger to their arm when they make what they wish to convey is a stomp down truthful statement, the gesture meant to convey "I swear it by my white skin", would not see you as a "race traitor" and treat you accordingly.  Hence, "acting white".

    It's a hoot, but unless you know guys who have served time in a California prison, it's hard to get the giggle.


    This definition puts many African-Americans in a box. To get a cab in Manhattan, you realize that your attire has to be a certain "acceptable" style. In order to succeed professionally, you know that you have to hit higher marks than your white colleagues. By this definition , if you are working for a white owned corporation, you are an Oreo. If you work for a majority white hospital or law firm, you are also an Oreo.

    The folks who can opt out of their "blackness" by just stating that their most recent heritage does not have African roots or by letting the effects of sun exposure fade away, don't face getting placed in this category. They are merely observers.

    If you are black and successful, you are an Oreo or Uncle Tom. As noted above, this nonsense impacts students striving to get an education. It creates a class of students eager to learn, but told by blacks and whites, if you succeed you're only a tool for "The Man".

    This then creates a group that can only find a "victory" by calling themselves a derogatory name and believing that they have "taken" ownership of a word, that no white person has ever trying to keep blacks from using.

    Proof in point of the power of words was the Michael Jackson album that included a slur against Jews. The albums were taken off the shelves, and the offending was song re-recorded. That is power. Albums that degrade black women, on the other hand, are merely free speech.

    Black people get put in boxes by multiple forces in society. It is truly disheartening.


    Thanks for saying what I was trying to say better than I could say it.


    I got what you were saying :)


    If you are black and successful, you are an Oreo or Uncle Tom. 

    No, but if you are black, successful, and president,  and you use your black exterior to mobilize support from communities of color while internally turning your back on the interests of the poor in general (and, by extension, people of color), and if, while giving a "Pass" to the criminals of privelege, if you go to bed every night without exercising your pardon power to reverse the jim crowization of our criminal justice system, pace Jeff Foxworthy, you might be an oreo.


    No, you might be a traitor. Or, if you want to be more colorful, you might be a Quisling or part of a fifth column or a Benedict Arnold. To use "oreo" in that context is to (unintentionally, I'm sure) give legitimacy to the uses that rmrd0000 alludes to. Those uses are far more common, of course, so why invent a brand new usage? It must be a brand new usage, since you seem to be asserting that you're not using it in the same manner that rmrd0000 alludes to.

    Additionally, to suggest that he used his black exterior in this manner suggests that he did something other than simply be himself (or as close to "himself" as politicians in general, regardless of race, tend to get). It's not like he decided to don a black exterior expressly for the purpose of getting elected President. As for betrayal, I don't think he betrayed poor blacks anymore than he betrayed poor whites, although I obviously understand your point that blacks are more strongly represented in the lower income group.


    In context it seems to imply that a non-sold out black man would totally be kicking ass right now ... and that it's the white part of Obama which is making him suck.

    (I like to think there is more behind the depressingly consistent presidential mega-suck we have experienced of late than whiteness of suckmeister ... but I also like to think a non-sold-out black man would totally kicking ass right now, so guess I'm 50/50 with it when parsed to the nth degree of absurdity).

    A brand new usage seems to be a result of this being a brand new situation into which the term must be contextualized ... we never had opportunity to ponder if perhaps there was an "O Word" in the White House before. The concept already exists (granted, it's somewhat obnoxious, but not terribly uncommon to see employed in articles by members of the "Black Community"), it seems inevitable the application would be explored sooner or later.


    With respect to the original point of this sub-thread, what is the value-added of the use of the word "oreo"? Why does it matter that people identify him as black? (Of course, he's always been clear about having a white mother, which is yet another reason why the "oreo" term is troubling.) Just because someone was bound to explore this "application" doesn't mean there's any value to exploring it in this manner.


     It's not like he decided to don a black exterior expressly for the purpose of getting elected President

    Bear in mind that we are talking of a man who, for his first foray into electoral politics, thought it would be a hoot to primary Bobby Rush, who happens to be a hero,

    Forgive me for making an epistomological leap (Take that, Trope!) but I don't see a white guy even dreaming about a primary challenge of a Black Panther of Rush's stature.'

    Whoever funded that (thank you Jesus) failed primary challenge, knew that the challenger had to be black.


    I'll try to take it, but I don't know if I can because I'm busy practicing my ontological leaps.


    ba-da-bing


    If the group sharing the exterior skin color with the above mentioned President support him in repeated polls and do not consider him an Oreo, does that not negate the charge? Would not the group with the darker skin color recognize the scam? They do seem able to detect differences between Herman Cain, Allen West and Obama.

    As a group they were also able to choose a white Presidential candidate for President over a black candidate, Al Sharpton, in Sharpton's hometown of NYC. Most recognized that GW Bush's religious push against Gay marriage was not a reason to vote for Bush.

    The difference between Perot's "You people", Biden's "Articulate" and the rants of Limbaugh, Beck,etc are detected by these dark-hued people. They can also detect a lack of color in the campaigns of Ralph Nader.

    They were even able to question motives of Cornel West and Tavis Smiley in recent verbal attacks and bus tours. It would seem that the group selects white over black when that is deemed rational. They question dark hued-people when appropriate. They look at the horizon and realize that those who are so opposed to our "wimpy" President offer no valid alternative.

    They often decide to let his opponents let of stem verbally. They also realize that the GOP is actively trying to curtail their voting rights and destroy unions. Unions served as sources of support when these dark-hued people attempt to enter the workplace.

    These people will not follow anyone over an abyss to elect more Republicans just to prove some political point. Things are bad for a higher percentage of blacks than whites. The shared history of the elders in the dark-hued community remind us that things could be much worse. They often wonder how others can be blind to that simple truth and be willing to take such a risk by suggesting that the voting public has not felt enough pain from Republicans to realize their voting errors. We should let more Republicans in to cause more pain so the voters finally "get their minds right".

    No, thank you.


    If the group sharing the exterior skin color with the above mentioned President support him in repeated polls and do not consider him an Oreo, does that not negate the charge?

    I suppose if one accepts the premise that only the opinion of those sharing the exterior skin color with the above mentioned President matters. And then one must further accept the premise that popular opinion polls are the best methodology by which to ensure the only demographic who's opinion is valid has been accurately assessed.

    If one accepts the premise that all Americans have an opinion as equals, than you'd have to check with everyone ... still not sure polls would be the best way to do that.

    But I'm dying to know ... who's polling the question "Do you consider President Obama to be an 'Oreo'?"


    I'm just starting my research on polling data. Idid come across this:

    Rush Limbaugh, still running the Republican party from behind a microphone, compared President Obama to an Oreo cookie on his radio show Wednesday, coinciding with the arrival of the new Triple Double Oreo, which hit shelves the same day. The Triple Double features both chocolate and vanilla cream (this is not a commercial), prompting Limbaugh to refer to the cookie as "biracial."

    http://www.nerve.com/news/politics/rush-limbaugh-compares-president-obam...

    I'll get back to you after I get my polling staff on the job.


    My polling staff did come across a more academic approach to calling Obama an Oreo

    “I think my dear brother Barack Obama has a certain fear of free black men.… It’s understandable. As a young brother who grows up in a white context, brilliant African father, he’s always had to fear being a white man with black skin. All he has known culturally is white. He is just as human as I am, but that is his cultural formation.”

    Our dear brother Cornel West says that Obama is afraid of being around black men (although Obama does seem to love a black women).

    My polling staff points out that Obama has high approval ratings in the African-American community and doubts that an Oreo would gain the approval of black voters). The staff also points out the reaction to Limbaugh's use of Oreo for Obama. The black community did not seem to agree with Limbaugh according to comments from black websites and pundits at the time. Dr West also received criticism in the black community for suggesting that Obama was an Oreo. They have found no support for the idea that many in the black community think that Obama is an Oreo.

    The staff is in in a monitoring period to see if continued statements by Limbaugh, et al and some Progressives calling Obama an Oreo gain traction in the black community.....or create a backlash.

    Once again I would point out that if all that "ya gots" is jokes and no viable alternative, you'll be holding conversations within a small group that will be uni-color. (Except for the folks at Black Agenda Report.)


    You can find words that will trigger a tendency towards stronger responses among many ethnic minorities and women. We are all Americans, but we do not response to every stimulus identically.


    "If you are black and successful, you are an Oreo or Uncle Tom."

    The term "Oreo" originated in the black community [I cannot prove that but I would bet my house on it] and it means black on the outside and white on the inside. That damned simple, or maybe that damned complicated. When someone uses the term both the speaker and the listener know that a person who is obviously of African decent is who the term is being applied to whether they previously knew his ethnicity or not or can see him or not. Not any other "race" such as an Indian from India who were often, at least in the past, considered to be "black" and often referred to with the "N" word.
     Whether or not the black man being referenced is successful or not does not determine whether he is an "Oreo". There are many black rappers and some black politicians who would certainly not be called that. When he is said to be white on the inside it is meant that he has internalized white middle class values and standards as opposed to the values of his "brothers". It is a term usually used by black men to denigrate another black man. If the originator of the term had been into acronyms he might have come up with "Bico".


    I understand the meaning of Oreo. The problem is that all too often, use of standard English, getting good grades in school, etc can be lumped in to "acting White" or Oreo. If you are simply achieving at your profession, you can be considered an Oreo. If you move from the inner city to the suburbs, you are an Oreo. There is no end to the minor things a person does that can be lumped into the word Oreo.

    If you play hockey, like country music, NASCAR or opera the Oreo category could fit. One glaring thing in this particular case is who gets to make the charge that someone is an Oreo? I ask again, if the majority of people who make up the group to whom the term Oreo could be applied, don't agree with the use of the term for a particular individual, don't the feelings of the group matter? I would think the group effected would be the best judges of whether the term was appropriate.

     


    "The problem is that all too often, use of standard English, getting good grades in school, etc can be lumped in to "acting White" or Oreo."

    Exactly, and the fact that these characteristics when demonstrated by a black man, characteristics which you and I would call good,  are the very characteristics which bring on the derogatory use of the word, "Oreo" from other black men.

    "If you play hockey, like country music, NASCAR or opera the Oreo category could fit."

    I don't agree. I think it came about as a put down of values, not as a put down of entertainment choices.  

    "One glaring thing in this particular case is who gets to make the charge that someone is an Oreo?"
     
     "I would think the group effected would be the best judges of whether the term was appropriate."

    When used by anyone as a derogatory label applied because the person called an "Oreo" has admirable characteristics, then no one should think it is appropriate to do so and it is usually an under-achiever who does.  I am quite sure that if you have a son you would never express your hopes for him becoming a well educated person with high standards and a well developed work ethic by saying that you really hope he becomes an Oreo.


    I think the key distinguishing parameters are to be found in values.

    Here, I find that Obama's public condescension vis-a-vis weed legalization, or even simply medicalization, is oreo city.

    And please don't give him a pass on the "what did you expect him to say in public?" tip....he could have stepped back from political oblivion without making a joke of thie issue.


    I think you're conflating two different things: (1) is he doing a good job with respect to [insert issue here]? (2) given (1), does that make him an "oreo"?

    Even if we agree on #1 (I personally don't care much either way about legalization, but there are plenty of other issues where I'm disappointed with him, and the actual issue isn't important), going from there to #2 is a non sequitur. When Bill Clinton sold us out on [insert issue here], what did you call him? Why would that label not be just as appropriate with respect to Obama? (Note: this question does not require you to think that Clinton was just as bad as Obama, just to admit, which I'm sure you will, that he sold us out on several issues as well.)


    Why would that label not be just as appropriate with respect to Obama? 

     

     

    A cracker?  For Obama, well that's creative, but not too apposite...


    Do you see a pattern there? Does it not strike you as problematic, or at least symptomatic, that your labels are race-based? That a label you apply to a black person isn't semantically appropriate for a white person (or Asian, etc.) and that a label you apply to a white person isn't semantically appropriate for a black person (or Asian, etc.)? Can't we aspire to a glorious future when they're all just assholes? (Using sons of bitches or mother fuckers is just swapping race-based labels for sex-based labels, although a little less strongly connected, in my opinion.)


    Your chain has been yanked, but don't ask me to give up motherfuckers or sonsabitches...that's a bridge (to the 21st century...)  too far


    To paraphrase Rodney King, can't we all just be assholes?


    Hey, I do my part....


    Didn't current marijuana policy begin under Bill Clinton and continue under GW? Hillary Clinton did not fully endorse decriminalization of marijuana.

    http://glassbooth.org/explore/index/hillary-clinton/1/medical-marijuana-...

    It seems that both Clintons and GW were as weak on marijuana policy as Obama. Obama is the only one who gets put into a specific category, Oreo. I wonder what characteristic Obama has that separates him from the others?


    !. I expect more from a brother--call me naive (my father always did.)

    2. Fat Bill (he will always be fat to me, even tho he may have finally gotten a speed connect and now lost weight) was a *Reagan Repugnant--he troubled himself to fly back to Arkansas duiring his primary run so he could personally snuff a mentally retarded man--I had no hope for him.

    3. I don't know what Hillary would have done had she been elected.  She was, give her credit, way left of Bill

     

     

    ie, to the right of Nixon (the horror, the horror) on most important issues.  Nixon would have cut off his hand before signing the "Putting poor mothers and their kids on the Streets Act" and the "Rolling to Re-Election over the corpses of the Innocent Act"

    Don't snivel to me about comparing Obama to the Clintons, let alone George W. Bush!

    I don't snivel. Your BFF Nixon also ushered in the Southern Strategy, so Nixon is not a hero to me. There was also that Watergate thing.

    Here's a link to a scorecard of accomplishments by the Obama administration.

    http://www.thepeoplesview.net/2011/09/so-that-ignorance-wont-be-reason-w...

    I have also put up a new post pointing out if you are looking for Oreos, you might consider the hardcore rappers who are aspiring to get Wall Street banker rich while denigrating the black community. If they weren't rapping they would selling hardcore drugs to keep children and adults in the black community to keep the folks nodding. They have internalized The Man's ethics and are willing to glorify killing black males and insulting black women. They are the Oreos you've been looking for.


    See below  @ 2:44 for reformatting...


    Actually, the "N" word hasn't been taken away at all. Turn on comedy central .... or tons of other entertainment sources. You live in a fantasy land.

    People who want to be offended are going to find a reason to take offense ... especially if doing so allows them to avoid the substance of a criticism about Obama.


    And people who want to offend are going to offend ... especially if they can do so without providing substantial critiques of Obama.*

    *That's not to say that jollyroger hasn't provided substantial critiques. It's merely a parody of your last paragraph since no one here has avoided the substance of jollyroger's criticism.[substantial delete by me after thinking twice about it]


    The point is that rappers, comedians and others who use the N-word, use the fact that they have altered the meaning of the word by "taking" the word away from the racism. In truth no battle was fought in this supposed "aggressive and bold" word transformation. The beauty of free speech is that the group who is free to use the word have to be exposed to the thoughts of those who disagree with the use of the word. Free speech and being offended are natural partners.

    Chris Rock notes that instead of getting upset at people using the word, just take a look at who is using the word and decide if you really respect the person. Rock also points out how n-words screw things up for black people. After traveling to Africa, Richard Pryor gave up the use of the n-word, because while their he saw black people and not n's. I don't see Obama, MLK Jr, and Malcolm X and other black people as n's. That's just me.

    Bill Dana had a free speech right to use the "Jose Jiminez" character. Dana dropped the character when he reflected on what the character was saying about the Latino community. He put the character in the dustbin with Amos N' Andy.

    People are free to use whatever term they wish to define themselves or others. Being offended is a basic human emotion.


    Bottom line Obama lets Boehner tell him when to speak, Republicans listen, Republicans, who won in 2010 promising jobs, act to pass a strong jobs bill, the economy recovers, the country is grateful for the bipartisan statesmanship in Congress, and Obama is rewarded for his unflinching leadership and is re-elected.  The GOP is content because their only goal was to help America be strong.

    As the Cub Scout who is now WH press secretary said on this today:

    "The problem here is the partisanship and the apparent polarization that sometimes is observed," Carney said. "It's not reflective of what's happening out in the country, it's not reflective of the [widespread] belief that compromise is necessary...that the far ends of either spectrum shouldn't just retreat to their corners and demand to get everything they want."

    As the White House says, the problems in government are as much the fault of the Democrats as they are the fault of the Republicans. Its everyone's fault and no one's fault. Get it?

     


    I will celebrate with you when the great seething American middle rises up like a wounded beast to savage the partisan Repugnants, just like they did in 2010....oh, never mind then.

    Hey, if this strategy (the lay down and die strategy) works, then shut my mouth.

    For now, call me a doubter.


     Your BFF Nixon 

    Oh, please. ..that is just silly.  My point was simply to take your proposal to compare Obama favorably with Fat Bill off the table. rhetorically speaking.  (I did mention the horror, did I not...and for some more horror, Chomsky (!) called Nixon "the last liberal Presideint"--after the 2008 election--take your snivel (yes, you do...) to him.

    I am not interested in deconstructing the "Oreo" meme.  That said, your introduction into the equation of rappers is somewhat quaint.

    Tupac, an oreo?

    Ice Tea? (who, by way of interesting aside, was invited to Harvard to lecture the Ivy Leaguers on achieving authenticity, which apparently was an intellectual challenge for them)

    NWA? (can't actually spell out the name, doncha know.)

    Have you heard JayZ lecture?  He's is a thoughtful motherfucker.

    I would pray for Obama to have the urge to offend that Rap subsumes.


    The point about Tupac (2Pac, Tu-Pak) was that people laughed at Chris Rock's joke about the shooting. Do you think the crowd would have laughed if Rock had substituted MLK or Malcolm?

    I'd expect Stepin Fetchit to be doing rap songs denigrating women if he was coming along today. Of course Fetchit's trajectory may be telling. Few today find a great deal of humor in Fetchit's roles. The response to the performances is one of rejection. Black in the future may wonder what was wrong with contemporary blacks who went from black is beautiful to hardcore rap.

    Do  you think the misogyny portrayed in hardcore rap lyrics is bad?


    Of course.\

     

    Oh, and the point about Tupac is Afeni and Amaru.

    You think there's any Chinese American kids named Mao?  If they are, what would you guess to be their political orientation?


    Since the subject of pardons and the unpardonable failure of your BFF, BHO to issue any has come up, and in the context of Afeni Shakur, would you want a pardon for her felony (!) weed beef as a gesture of respect for the community?

     

     

    Parenthetically, how the fuck can weed possession ever be a felony?  Recall, please, that felonies are crimes that historically got you the death penalty,  albeit we have progressed a taste from those days.


    I'm not sure why marijuana decriminalization would not be a universal victory. That said, there a a great many more threats that I see if the GOP gains the Presidency. So I will stick with my BFF Obama in 2012.

    What is your alternative?


    Look, because we live in an impoverished political climate, where tweedles, dum and dee, compete, who knows....I may pull his lever and try to duck the lightning bolt that I will deserve as I slink outta the booth.

    That said, he makes my gorge rise hourly.


    That said, he makes my gorge rise hourly.

    I thought only Chris Matthews had that reaction to him…


    Since you mention it, I get a sensation down my leg as well, but it feels warm rather than a chill...


    Not  understanding the Mao connection.

    If we protest when Allen West attacks Wasserman-Shultz in a misogynistic fashion, why do we give the hardcore rappers a pass when it comes to black women? Their poetry is better than West's? Is that the standard?


    Dead horse, meet beater.

    What part of "of course" I deplore misogyny do you not get?

    Start your own thread if you want, don't hijack mine, motherfucker.


    I say "motherfucker" with the utmost respect.


    LOL. There's a classic response to that, but it would get deleted.

    There's a 1976 movie starring Glynn Turman called J.D's Revenge. In one scene, Turman's character is a tad upset because he is being possessed by a 1940's gangster, so he talks to a doctor. The doctor tells Turman's character to "Relax and smoke some weed."

    I'm done. Have a nice day.


    the Mao connection.

     

    We name our children for our heroes.  Often they live up to their names (Tupac did, hence, no oreo he.)

    For your better comprehension, can you point me to the banker named Robin Hood Schwartz?


    Robin Hood Schwartz

    I demand the Dayley.  Someone get Dick offa the leg press machine right now.

     


    Oreo: An African-American President who won't take a call from the chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus on his upcoming jobs speech. (Per said chairman, Emmanual Cleaver, today on Tavis & Smiley)

    It's one thing when you won't be seen talking in public...when you won't pick up the phone in the privacy of your office, well...

    Is he afraid that the blackness will leap over the wires and attack him through the phone?

    Maybe he just doesn't want to be publically known to take calls from explicitly black interest group accountable officials.

    What happened to this guy? "“People like myself are learning a certain language of mainstream society, of power and decision making,” he said. “We have an obligation to go back to the Black community, to listen and learn and help give our people a voice.

    That was the 1990 Obama.  The 2011 model ain't listening.


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