MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
In sharp remarks directed against his Democratic successor and his wife’s former boss, President Bill Clinton said Tuesday that President Barack Obama risks looking like a “wuss,” a “fool,” and “lame” for not doing more to influence events in Syria
Comments
by Donal on Fri, 06/14/2013 - 11:36am
Clinton was at the McCain Institute (there actually is one?) and did not say he supported intervention in Syria. His message was in general terms and was tailored for the 'let's have another war' audience he gave it to.
He also did not mention that many Republicans wanted to impeach him for his joining NATO forces in ending the Bosnian conflict. What Clinton said at the McCain Institute:
“You just think how lame you’d be … suppose I had let a million people, two million people be refugees out of Kosovo, a couple hundred thousand people die, and they say, ‘You could have stopped this by dropping a few bombs. Why didn’t you do it?’
“If you refuse to act and you cause a calamity, the one thing you cannot say when all the eggs have been broken is, ‘Oh my god, two years ago there was a poll that said 80 percent of you were against it.’ You look like a total fool,” Clinton said.
Clinton did not say:
(1) dropping a few bombs in Syria will end the crisis.
(2) that the US is causing a calamity in Syria by refusing to act, or that by acting a calamity (which already exists) will disappear with some bombing.
(3) that the Bosnian intervention which had both NATO and UN peace keeping and offensive boots on the ground military backing, is anything like the Syria.
(4) that the situation he faced in Bosnia, on the European continent and of concern to many NATO nations in Europe, bears any relation to the Syrian conflict in the Middle East.
by NCD on Fri, 06/14/2013 - 3:41pm
It's not as if intervening in a Middle Eastern country with a regime that's used chemical weapons has ever been problematic before.
A little flashback:
by Orion on Fri, 06/14/2013 - 4:00pm
I commended Obama for staying out of Syria, but alas, his resolve weakened. Now he may drag us into another war to prove that he isn't a "wuss".
by Aaron Carine on Fri, 06/14/2013 - 4:16pm
The only option to turn the tide in Syria will involve foreign troops on the ground. The troops may be labeled multinational, but we all know that we are talking about US Boots on the ground. The warhawks, including Bill Clinton need to explain what we expect to accomplish in Syria. What is the end game?How many Americans lives is the theoretical and unobtainable end game?
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 06/14/2013 - 4:32pm
The only option to turn the tide in Syria will involve foreign troops on the ground. The troops may be labeled multinational, but we all know that we are talking about US Boots on the ground. The warhawks, including Bill Clinton need to explain what we expect to accomplish in Syria. What is the end game?How many Americans lives is the theoretical and unobtainable end game?
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 06/14/2013 - 4:32pm
Pre-emptive: I'm not interested in opining one way or the other, only trying to understand what's going on. That said, I noticed this in today's NYT article, which seems to be one of the game changers involved; my bold:
There is also this influencing the situation:
add to that, as Juan Cole noted, France and UK pushing, and then there's Turkey: Lavrov also urged Turkey to clarify reports that Syrian militants fighting to oust Syrian President Bashar al-Assad had been arrested on its soil in possession of the nerve agent sarin.
by artappraiser on Fri, 06/14/2013 - 6:26pm
Christian Science Monitor's "DC Decoder" interpretation of the Clinton story focuses on chronology; note the last paragraph, providing "the end of the story"?
Your interpretation may vary depending upon level of cynicism.
by artappraiser on Fri, 06/14/2013 - 6:41pm
This morning I thought Obama was getting involved in Syria just to save his face. Now I see it has a lot to do with pressure from allies, especially Sunni Arab governments.
by Aaron Carine on Fri, 06/14/2013 - 8:03pm
Clinton and our allies have to point out what success in this cluster-event will look like.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 06/14/2013 - 8:07pm
Another perspective from Kevin Drum summarizing Dan Drezner:
by EmmaZahn on Fri, 06/14/2013 - 8:49pm
This piece in the NYT today, Heavy Pressure Led to Decision by Obama on Syrian Arms, makes it clear to me that Drum's gut reaction is right and Drezner is wrong, that that's not a conscious Obama administration policy:
Now I am cynical about articles like this and other stuff. For example, I got a cynical reaction about Clinton's statements, was thinking that he might be in with the administration in preparing the public for more involvement, and that the reporters were falling for it and not reading those statements for that nuance.
But what really convinced me that the case truly is that Obama doesn't like any of the options and doesn't know what to do is that even Senator Corker, who wanted more involvement, does not think they are thinking that way, with such surety:
The article has clearly been partly fed by Obama aides and I started out reading it cynically. But the Corker part made it clear to me that the confusion about what to do is honest.
There was also this, a good point by Baker:
If you recall Obama's announcements about intervention in Libya, this is not how he handles things when he is sure of his decision about how to proceed. Seems like wishes he never made that |"red line" statement and sees it as a mistake, and combined with others pressuring him, that's what's making him go with more intervention. Having Rhodes do the announcing here makes it clear Obama has no interest in continuing with saber rattling. He wasn't so shy of doing that with Libya, there he was sure he had made the right decision and was willing to put the full force of presidential bully pulpit behind it. He's tends to be far from wussy when he's sure of what he's decided to do, is more like arrogant.
I'm no longer cynical, I truly think he is morose about the options with this.
And now I think what Clinton was doing was putting out some support for the factions in the administration that were advising to put more into this. That Clinton knew of Obama's waffling and angst, and was trying to get the message to him: you'll regret that, you've got to risk a little more action.
by artappraiser on Sat, 06/15/2013 - 11:33am
P.S. Confirmation of a lot of the above is here, in Dexter Filkins' New Yorker article of May 13: The Thin Red Line; Inside the White House debate over Syria. Starting @ page 4: At times, Obama’s caution has isolated him within his Administration.....The "wuss" label is not inaccurate, he is afraid of the consequences of any kind of involvement in this conflict, probably even the diplomatic ones. Most of us probably agree that's wise, but wuss is still an accurate label. If he felt strongly about NOT being involved, he could say so. It's not like he's not capable of doing that, see Iraq or Libya. He is not decisive about it. I think Clinton was basically saying: when you're president of the U.S., you'll regret not being decisive, you don't really have the luxury of being indecisive. And Obama might be wishing he could have a little talk with Lyndon Johnson about that....
by artappraiser on Sat, 06/15/2013 - 12:13pm
Meddling ex-presidents!
What I like about Drezner's piece is the counter implication, that rather than being a wuss, when it comes to foreign policy Obama can be one callous sob. Way better optics imo.
Of course, sending a deputy nsa to respond to the wuss charge while personally addressing a gay pride event could also be construed as a signal to all the warring factions of where their conflict ranks in his priorities.
Spin, spin, spin. Being President is hard.
by EmmaZahn on Sat, 06/15/2013 - 6:27pm
Interesting comment but it also sounds like you still entertain some hope that Obama may be that eight-dimensional chess player guy. I have totally been disabused of even entertaining that.
I tried real hard to be objective, but now within enough time into his second term where there's no need to do things for re-election purposes, I've bascially chalked him up as an extremely mediocre president, no genius, not even an exceptional talent at it. It's been interesting for me in that I've now been convinced that American voters' usual preference for electing governors to the presidency (i.e., trained in the executive government experience) is very wise.
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/16/2013 - 12:07am
We tried to warn the Obamabots.
by Resistance on Sun, 06/16/2013 - 12:46am
"sounds like you still entertain some hope that Obama may be that eight-dimensional chess player guy."
Hardly, and for the record, never did. Always thought Obama shared W's management style as in being the decider who lets others do the strategizing.
I seriously doubt what is unfolding in Syria was deliberately planned by anyone in the White House. Maybe an idiot lower down the food chain kicked off something there to which others in the government think we must react somehow. But do we? Why is standing back and watching
bothall sides bleed each other a bad strategy? .I am sorry for the people who end up collateral damage but I do not see how our getting involved will do much except make it even worse for themI've always had a preference for presidential candidates who were governors (unless they were one termers using the office as a stepping stone).
by EmmaZahn on Sun, 06/16/2013 - 9:23am
My natural inclination in foreign policy is pretty laissez-faire except for trade. Only because humans cannot predict the future well. That includes diplomacy, but I can still admire it when it is done well.
And this conflict is so complex that few can even understand what is really going on much less consider the future blowback.
But when it comes to Islamists and other fundamentalists, as a feminist, I am especially loathe to see our country helping them in any way, even if it were supposedly in our national interest. The blowback is a bitch. See our long relationship with Saudi Arabia and then see the results, big picture. Not that we have to antagonize them.
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/16/2013 - 1:48pm
Yes! Palin in 2016. Governor of the largest state in America!
Just kidding. You do have a point. Especially if the candidate was the governor of a populous diverse state.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 06/16/2013 - 2:59pm
I have to admit that this idea had already occurred to me, but it also occurred to me that if I were Obama and this was my game plan, I would not mention this to anyone in writing, and to very few people (if any) orally. To those I might mention it to orally, even then it would probably be through a plausibly deniable manner. (E.g., simply ruminating out loud.)
by Verified Atheist on Sat, 06/15/2013 - 3:06pm
At least until someone implies you are a wuss. Then you would want others to know just how mean you can be.
by EmmaZahn on Sat, 06/15/2013 - 6:30pm
Dowd chimes in (if she didn't people would wonder if she was ill.)
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/16/2013 - 1:50pm