MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
The Hindu, Sept. 17, 2013
Dubai -- Turkey has shot down a Syrian helicopter raising border tensions, buffered by Russia which has stepped in to prevent a possible UN-sanctioned military attack on Syria in the future.
Turkey scrambled its F-16 fighter jets on Monday to shoot down Syria’s Russian-built Mi-17 helicopter, claiming that it was forced to take the decision after the helicopter intruded two km inside Turkish airspace.
"It (the helicopter) was continuously warned by our air defence but as the violation continued, it fell on Syrian soil at 2.25 p.m. having been hit by missiles from our planes," said Turkey’s Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc in Ankara.
Syria has responded angrily to the shooting, slamming Turkey for deliberately escalating border tensions between the two countries, which are already steeped in hostility because of Ankara’s active and open support to the Opposition that wants to topple the Government of President Bashar Al Assad. The Syrians claim that the chopper was “heading back” after it had mistakenly entered Turkish airspace [....]
Comments
If this incident blows up into something significant and the details of what happened therefore gain significance, I, personally, will consider the following: It is very hard to imagine a helicopter being hit by an air to air missile and then traveling any direction other than straight down. The very best glide angle an undamaged helicopter can manage is very steeply towards the ground.
While Syria apparently admits a violation of Turkish airspace, doing so accidentally seems the most logical assumption to make from this distance and if that is assumed then Turkey can be assumed, most likely, to have chased the copter home and then killed it anyway.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 09/17/2013 - 12:38pm
You're absolutely right. If it were still 2 km inside Turkish airspace, either Turkey has a very liberal definition of their airspace, or it wouldn't have landed in Syria.
by Verified Atheist on Tue, 09/17/2013 - 4:26pm
You're absolutely wrong - "If it were still 2 km inside Turkish airspace, either Turkey has a very liberal definition of their airspace, or it wouldn't have landed in Syria."
A turbine helicopter typical glide ration is 4/1, 4 meters glide for every 1 meter loss of altitude. A typical glide KIAS for a turbine chopper is 70 knots, or 130 km/hour.
If it was hit exactly 2km inside Turkey airspace, at 1k meters altitude, it could glide 4 kilometers at KIAS 70 knots and land at least 2 km inside Syria depending on prevailing winds. With a tail wind it could easily go further.
The Mi-17 can carry 6,000 lbs of cargo and this one was not likely fully loaded, extending it's glide path ratio even further.
by NCD on Tue, 09/17/2013 - 6:19pm
Thank you for correcting me. I actually missed the part about gliding and was assuming uncontrolled descent.
by Verified Atheist on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 12:08pm
Your figures work but what you describe is a helicopter which has all the complicated rotor systems and the controls to them functioning properly and only the motor/turbine is not working. That is extremely unlikely to be the case after being hit by an air to air missile.
Here is a map with radar tracks of the aircraft involved according to the Turks. Yellow line is the path of the chopper. White is border. Upper left script box points to jets position when they fired. With no scale shown I cannot estimate how many miles away the jets were when they fired. http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-turkey-shot-down-a-syrian-helic...
Here is claimed video of the chopper coming down. It is what I would expect to see after a strike by a missile. The pilot escaping [temporarily] by parachute is very surprising.
http://media.canberratimes.com.au/featured/turkey-shoots-down-syrian-hel...
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 12:15pm
Chopper appears to have been hit over Turkey. Bottom line is this Russian made chopper which can carry a heavy payload of armaments will no longer be cruising the skies of Syria or Turkey.
As I have said before, whether it is Israel, or Turkey in this case, if a neighboring nation is threatened by the despots of Damascus, I thoroughly support their right to blow Assad's weaponry to kingdom come. Assad is not about to start a war with either Israel or Turkey.
by NCD on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 1:22pm
It appears to me that the helicopter traveled a very short distance horizontally after being struck by the missile. If the point it hit ground was two kilometers into Syria then I would still bet that the missile hit occurred in Syrian territory. That also indicates that it wasn't very far into Syria so my next bet, based on taking the map released by Turkey at face value, is that the F-16's fired from quite a distance and that when they did the copter was still over Turkey but slightly into Syria by the time the missile got there.
It really doesn't seem to matter one bit, it seems to be turning out to be a non-event, and certainly not one where it is critical to find out exactly who did what, and where, when, and how. It just caught my interest when the story first started coming out.
"As I have said before, whether it is Israel, or Turkey in this case, if a neighboring nation is threatened by the despots of Damascus, I thoroughly support their right to blow Assad's weaponry to kingdom come. Assad is not about to start a war with either Israel or Turkey."
Those two sentences form an interesting dichotomy, but that's a whole nuther thing..
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 7:14pm
You guys can stop arguing now because Syria admitted it had gone into Turkish airspace:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/20adf398-1eed-11e3-9636-00144feab7de.html...
http://www.euronews.com/2013/09/17/syria-says-downed-helicopter-was-in-t...
I read the Syrian excuse as geez Turkey, we were just innocently chasing the terrorists that hurt us all, but you are the real bullies, just itching to go to war with us....
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 8:54pm
And this analysis by a Turk over at AL Monitor/Turkey Pulse makes the argument that the Erdogan government is extremely disappointed that there is little chance right now that bigger war will be made on Assad:
Davutoglu: Shooting Down of Helicopter 'Punishment' for Syria
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 9:03pm
Syria admitting a border violation is not a new development. You might have missed this from your original link:
That statement is an admission of the airspace violation and was made very soon after the shoot-down occurred. I noted that in my first comment when I said:
"While Syria apparently admits a violation of Turkish airspace, ..."
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 10:04pm
Oops. So why are you guys arguing about where it might have been hit by where it fell? Once someone breaks into airspace, and they don't answer you, you are supposed to wait and see if they do it again, give them a Mulligan? Is there a number of times they are allowed to weave back and forth, play cat and mouse?
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 10:36pm
Who doesn't know; mistakes at this time can be deadly?
by Resistance on Tue, 09/17/2013 - 8:09pm
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 1:55am
Assad pleased with Fox News & Dennis Kucinich, oh boy:
Further detail and updates on the whole shebang in another Lede post here:
Assad's Office Promotes Fox News Interview with Kucinich
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 10:57pm
It's a sad day when Dennis Kucinich, who I voted for in 2004, says such things.
by Aaron Carine on Thu, 09/19/2013 - 7:02am
Win-win for Fox and Kucinich. He has a platform and Fox can portray Kucinich as a typical person who doesn't salivate for what Sean Hannity has to say. Clever in a disturbing kind of way.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 09/19/2013 - 7:33am
Oh boy, indeed. I am curious as to whether you [or anyone who might choose to answer the same question] have actually watched the interview and if so, how do you judge it regarding both the interviewees questions and Assad's responses? Was it a puff piece for Assad which offered only soft-ball questions which allowed him easy opportunities for defense and self-promotion or did you see an effort to pin him down to firm positions and commitments? Did you see any value in the interview?
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 09/19/2013 - 10:17am
I haven't watched it because I have to ration the videos on my internet service and wasn't able to watch it on Fox TV. I searched for a transcript and found every place pointing to this one furnished by the Syrian news agency:
http://sana.sy/eng/21/2013/09/19/503275.htm
Can't easily find one at Fox, they appear to only be up to the date of Sept.17. One would think the Syrian News Agency isn't so stupid as to alter anything in an English version.
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/19/2013 - 11:53am
War In Context has it in two 30 minute segments. Sorry, log-in problems prevent a link but just scroll down. Right now Paul Woodward whose site it is has a piece at the top more critical of the interview than I was/am. The interview by Kucinich and Fox Foreign Affairs Correspondent Greg Palkot was certainly more probing and insistent than any I have seen an American President sit for.
Whether you choose to watch it or not you might be interested in that article which also goes to commentary on Elizabeth O'Bagy whom I have paid very little attention to and so have close to zero opinion of.
by Anonymous LULU (not verified) on Thu, 09/19/2013 - 4:41pm
Guess I wasn't clear: can't watch it on the internet because an hour of video would cause me big overage fees on my monthly internet which is cellular (video uses a ton of bandwith.) I watch only short video clips on the internet; I watch TV from the cable box.
Anyhow, I read the transcript and agree they did a good job. I introduced it with an "oh boy" because it seemed that Fox pundits would have a hard time spinning the results acccording to their preferences. I am actually more interested in seeing some of their interpretation of it, how they are spinning it to their many viewers.
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/19/2013 - 6:37pm
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 10:48pm