MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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Hits of the Day
NC LtGov:Toilet Security Now, Toilet Security Tomorrow & Toilet Security Forever!
By NCD on Tue, 09/13/2016 - 9:01pm |Stop the transgender rape at NCAA bathrooms! Not that any have ever happened! North Carolina Lt. Gov. Dan Forest said "NCAA's action sends a message to every female athlete and female fan attending their events that their privacy and security in a bathroom, shower or locker room isn't worth the price of a ticket to a ballgame." He then lumps the NCAA and NBA IN WITH...HOLLYWOOD! "The line has now been drawn in the sand, first by Hollywood, now by the NBA and NCAA, either accept their 'progressive sexual agenda' or pay the price...." What happened to dissing Bruce Springsteen? I would trust The Boss over any huckster Republican ANY F***ing day on any question Mr. Lt Gov.
URL:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/lgbtq-advocacy-groups-blast-north-carolina-lt-governor/story?id=42060105
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Comments
This is a complicated issue that both sides are discussing in simplistic ways. The extreme nature of the NC law and the sexist bigoted way that republicans discuss it doesn't make the transgendered position correct nor does it make the issue go away. I know I'm not in line with the liberal position or probably with most dagblog posters on this issue. So in the interest in getting some conversation going on a non Hillary/Trump issue I'll bite and post something that may be controversial. Just a brief summary though as I'm guessing not many if any will be inclined to respond.
It's not really a single issue. How the country deals with transgender differs, imo, with bathrooms and changing rooms like gym locker rooms. It differs with adults and minors.
Adult bathrooms is the easiest part of the equation and the one most often discussed by liberals as it's the part we're most likely to be supported by the majority. There are stalls and a modicum of privacy in unisex bathrooms. Though a bit more problematic even unisex bathrooms for minors isn't too much of a stretch for Americans to come to accept.
The real problem and the one that liberals will lose big on is changing rooms, especially for minors. Americans are not accustomed nor accepting of nudity. When I lived in PA used to go to the Sandy Hook nude beach all the time so not a problem for me. Perhaps it would be good if more people were more accepting of the unclothed human body. Be that as it may I have little doubt that a vast majority of Americans will resist that change. What ever one believes about the mental state of a person determining their gender most transgendered are biologically male or female with corresponding genitalia. While it might be possible. though I think it unlikely, to get Americans to accept unisex locker rooms and showers for adults I see no possibility that they would accept them for their children. The issue is further complicated in that few exclusively adult locker rooms exist. Many adults bring their children to most of the public gyms they go to.
While the republicans want to focus on transgendered but biological gendered men in female and most often young girls locker rooms and showers this sexist response isn't the only issue. Young people of either sex are uncomfortable with the changes puberty brings and many male and female minors would be uncomfortable undressing and showering in front of those with differing biological sexual characteristics. Even though I came to enjoy nude beaches as an adult undressing in locker rooms and showers was difficult for me as a teen. Being forced to undress and shower in front of females would have increased that difficulty. I think I'm not unique and I think it would be even more difficult for teen girls.
So long as the issue is focused on unisex bathrooms used mainly by adults the liberal argument appears rational. But as soon as it becomes about locker rooms and showers used by teens this is a complete loser for democrats. If we successfully force it on the public through laws or court decisions the backlash will be ferocious
by ocean-kat on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 8:13pm
Are there that many pre-pubescent and pubescent transgender people?
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 5:02pm
From my reading probably only a few dozen now and even with greater societal acceptance likely never more than a small minority. It might not be an issue that directly affects a large majority of Americans but should those 100 or so schools and those children be forced to be a part of a social experiment? How would you feel if your 15 year old son or daughter was forced to undress and shower most school days in front of someone who was biologically the opposite sex? How do you think those children would feel? For most of those parents it would be a very important issue. When addressed in the public square how do you think the majority of Americans would react whether directly affected or not?
by ocean-kat on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 5:47pm
A 30+ year SC police chief said he had never seen or heard of a transgender bathroom rape/crime.
The GOP promoted similar scare malarky over gays in the military. That issue has been done, gays are not kicked out, and with zero problems.
There have always been gays in the military, and transgender folks using bathrooms. For the GOP it's just another cheap kulturekampf issue to rile up the base, on the excuse they are protecting their women from evil liberals and perverted sinners.
by NCD on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 5:06pm
I agree NCD but as I posted the extreme rhetoric of republicans doesn't make this a non issue. It doesn't mean that all public school looker rooms and showers should be unisex.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 5:14pm
Are public schools being forced into unisex showers?
by NCD on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 5:18pm
Attempts have been make and directives have come down from the federal government based on their interpretation of Title IX. Attempts have been made by the schools with transgendered students to create separate but equal facilities. You can imagine how that went down. The fight is still on going and I don't believe any final decisions have been made. At some point a decision will be made by law or the courts, perhaps eventually the Supreme Court. We don't know what the courts will decide. Perhaps they will decide separate but equal is legal in this instance. I'm simply weighing in on the controversy as it now stands.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 5:33pm
Of course, there is always some joker trying to exploit whatever rule they can, especially at HS age.
Principals often have little power as it is, and are often just accountants managing budgets, with little real authority over teachers, and even kids - and their often irate/complaining parents.
ABC reports the ACC has now pulled all sports championships from NC.
by NCD on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 5:50pm
Of course, there is always some joker trying to exploit whatever rule they can, especially at HS age.
I think you need to elaborate on that statement. Are you claiming that transgendered minors are jokers trying to game the system and are not sincerely claiming their gender based on their mental state? That they are not sincerely asking for their rights based on their gender identity? Do you make the same claim about adult transgendered?
by ocean-kat on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 6:14pm
There was one case I read about with a student was using one or both male/female bathrooms at different times, why not made clear, and the school also had a private bathroom which was recommended for that student to use as their sex identity was either being 'gamed' or was not thoroughly developed, making classmates using the male or female restrooms uncomfortable.
by NCD on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 7:23pm
A majority of transgendered individuals sex identity isn't "thoroughly developed" in that most still have the genitalia of their biological sex. That's what tends to make people uncomfortable in bathrooms and locker rooms. Many of them, both adults and minors, are suing for the right to use the facilities of the sex they identify with so eventually a court will have to decide.
It seems as though you want to focus on bathrooms that adults mainly use which as I posted is the easiest part of the controversy. The more difficult question is bathrooms used mainly by minors and locker rooms and showers used by both adults and minors. You don't seem to want to fully address those aspects of the controversy and they do exist. If I agree that public bathrooms for adults should be unisex can we move on?
by ocean-kat on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 7:54pm
Certainly. If showers and lockers are the big problem, I wonder why did the NBA and NCAA exit NC? There are no showers/lockers for spectators. And apparently neither organization had bathroom issues before the law. I don't believe the law affected only minors.
But let's drop it. Agreed.
by NCD on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 8:35pm
So far the left has been successful in spinning this as just a bathroom bill and more than that a mainly adult bathroom bill. It quite explicitly is not just a bathroom bill. As the republicans speak and the bill itself quite explicitly addresses, it's a "bathroom, showers or locker rooms bill" For the NBA and the NCCA it is just a bathroom bill as spectators at their events don't have access to the showers or locker rooms. As I said from the beginning as long as it's just about bathrooms mainly used by adults it's a winning issue for the left.
Drop it if you want but that's not what I suggested. I suggested we not discuss this as just an adult public bathroom bill but as what it actually is. A bathroom, shower or locker room bill that affects both adults and minors. We will find out this is the issue as the court cases wind their way through the system far enough to get more news coverage. Especially if the courts rule in favor of the transgender minors
by ocean-kat on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 10:11pm
My understanding is the issues you raise on lockers and showers especially when mixed with adults are real and complicated to solve. How widespread these problems have been I don't know, but the Bill itself does not seem targeted or even practical if and where those issues might arise. They may be best addressed with extant law on a case by case basis, and not this sweeping state law, which is apparently unique in the 50 states.
The problem the NBA, the NCAA, the ACC, and numerous corporations and performers like Springsteen have is that by mandating a birth certificate/genital match for, as I understand it, all public restrooms extant in the state, save for individual unisex stall type, the Republicans were going way overboard, like cleaning toilets with hand grenades. In doing so, those organizations above felt they would seek to protect their fans from this 'bathroom police' intrusion, as they believe the bathroom part of the Bill is excessive and a potential invasion of privacy, and may lead to prejudicial harmful actions by the state against their fans.
by NCD on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 10:24pm
I agree and posted that I think the NC law is extreme and that they way the republicans speak on it is abhorrent. But there are parts of the controversy that are real and haven't gotten full news coverage or discussion.
I did a quick search and found this from the NY times.
Federal education authorities, staking out their firmest position yet on an increasingly contentious issue, found Monday that an Illinois school district violated anti-discrimination laws when it did not allow a transgender student who identifies as a girl and participates on a girls’ sports team to change and shower in the girls’ locker room without restrictions.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 10:41pm
Agree 100%. The case like Illinois is difficult and likely complicated by the opinions of coaches, teammates, therapists, parents, school board or who knows, I can't get NYT on this device but somebody most likely the TG kid must have raised pretty big complaints.
A good coach might have been able to soothe everyone's concerns and work out a way of handling this showering problem to the satisfaction of all, without the DOJ getting involved. Most teammates just want to compete and work together to improve.
I would speculate if 'the team' is so averse to showering with the individual, there would be no option to shower with them, as they would just go home. So no point in taking it to the feds.
Ergo, it is likely parent(s) beefing about their kids being 'preverted' by showering...which led to the shower ban.
by NCD on Wed, 09/14/2016 - 11:32pm