MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
I've edited this post because I decided that this is more newsworthy than the quotes by a troubled Roger Waters calling Scarlett Johanssen cute and Neil Young confused for not joining him in his efforts to boycott Israel. For those of you interested in Mr. Waters, you can read about him in the comment section below. Here's the news article about Waters that I linked to yesterday.
Some of you, I know, are intrigued by BDS and other so-called non-violent tactics against the Jewish State. Here's a primer on BDS written by Marc Tracy in the New Republic. Tracy elaborates on the so-called "Zionist boycott" that would focus exclusively on companies that manufacture or otherwise produce products in this occupied territory.
Thus, Americans for Peace Now supports a boycott of Soda Stream, but rejects BDS. Here's APN's Debra De Lee:
But before I discuss bubbles, a few words of clarification are in order. My organization is staunchly pro-Israel. Americans for Peace Now, the sister organization of Israel’s peace movement, is a Zionist organization, proudly committed to Israel’s security and wellbeing. I love Israel and I’m worried sick about its future as a democracy and a Jewish state.
It is because of my love for Israel that I don’t buy products made by companies that are located in West Bank settlements, and that I urge the millions watching the Super Bowl on Sunday to look beyond the luminous actress and the fizz — and to consider the future of Israel and the Middle East.
I strongly oppose boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS) against Israel. I actually encourage everyone to buy products made in Israel. The problem, however, is that products like SodaStream don’t come from Israel but from territory occupied by Israel, territory that is to become a part of the future Palestinian state or to be swapped as a part of a two-state deal between Israel and Palestine. In fact, when SodaStream moves to Israel, which it claims it will do, I will encourage anyone to buy lots of bubbly water.
The Forward, still an influential newspaper among more lefty types in the Jewish community has a different, and perhaps more ambivalent take on boycotting SodaStream. In a recent editorial, the Forward came out against the limited boycott:
Yes, SodaStream enjoys some tax benefits because of its location in Mishor Adumim, an industrial park that is part of Maale Adumim, a sprawling settlement 15 minutes from Jerusalem in occupied territory that many expect would remain Israeli in an agreement with the Palestinians. And its owner acknowledges that economic incentives enticed him to move there years ago. But the tax benefits SodaStream enjoys today are granted to other companies located in similar industrial areas within the Green Line, in Israel proper. It is not “profiting from the occupation,” as its critics claim.
Yes, while an Israeli workers’ rights group had criticized labor practices at SodaStream from 2008 to 2010, the company has had no complaints in the last three years. Even its most vociferous critic concedes that the 500 Palestinians employed there — who receive the same salary as their Israeli counterparts — earn three to four times the Palestinian average. SodaStream says the advantage is even higher.
So no special government incentives. No worker exploitation.
And 500 well-paying jobs. There’s a certain arrogance in promoting a boycott from the safety and security of America that would economically damage workers who really need those jobs, and who appear to be treated fairly inside the factory walls.
Outside, the occupation — with all its lopsided oppressiveness — reigns. It is the fault of the Israeli leadership, the Palestinian leadership, an Arab world which pays only lip service to the Palestinian cause. It’s not the fault of a company trying to make a buck by selling fancy seltzer. Ending the occupation requires everyone to engage, not to run away or to demonize the wrong parties to the conflict.
Given the history of the boycott used against Jews over centuries and culminating with the ugliest of ugly boycotts in the 1930s, I would have a hard time joining any boycott against fellow Jews. That is a Jewish impulse (for those interested) and not an American one. And I would not join any effort that is supported by the likes of the Roger Waters of the world. That to me is both a Jewish and American impulse. And I don't understand more recent boycott efforts at a time when the United States is devoting so much time and effort to keep the parties at the table. A boycott just seems counterintuitive at this juncture. That, of course, is a practical, consideration.
Comments
For those interested in Roger Waters, here's his December interview with a blog called Counterpunch. Waters lets it all hang out. On comparing
JewsIsrael and Nazis:And on the power of the Jewish Lobby in America:
by Bruce Levine on Sun, 02/02/2014 - 4:34pm
This is an example of the BDS movement, in this case down in New Zealand where the government there rejected efforts to deny visas to members of Israel's Batsheva Dance Company, I think I know Israelis pretty well, and I know I know the hardcore supporters of the Jewish State on this side of the pond. To them, and in this case to me, it is the type of othering that we've been subjected to for the millenia, and it stings terribly--as some supporters of BDS apparently think is a good thing and often enjoy pointing out.
I don't believe that a boycott of Israeli artists is a good thing in terms of promoting a peace process or otherwise. The Jewish People know what it's liked to be othered by their non-Jewish neighbors. From where I sit this special attention to and assault on Israeli artists just galvanizes extremists and hardens the hearts of peace lovers. It is what gives succor to the likes of Bibi at his worst.
On the other hand, as Mr. Tracy points out in his article above, there are Israeli artists who won't perform in occupied territory. If I could do more than hum a few bars I might also restrict myself accordingly as well. But I wonder if people who are not Jewish, or even some people who are Jewish, can even begin to understand how differently it feels to many of us to be challenged from the inside, as distinguished from that to which Israel and Israel alone (and Jews in various places around the world who are used as scapegoats in their own countries on matters concerning Israel) would be subjected to by people in the non-Jewish world. I have the impression that such a sensitivity is sorely lacking, that it is seen as an excuse to maintain things as they are. In my opinion such a knee-jerk perspective is both incorrect and too bad for Israelis as well as for Palestinians.
by Bruce Levine on Mon, 02/03/2014 - 5:39pm
For many years Juan Cole seemed unique in vigorously disagreeing with Israeli positions but equally condemning boycotts of Israeli academics. If he has changed that position I'd be happy to be corrected. His Wikipedia biography suggests he has not but that may not be current.
by Flavius on Mon, 02/03/2014 - 5:59pm
Thanks Flavius, I'm not sure what Prof. Cole's position is. Would be interesting to find out.
by Bruce Levine on Mon, 02/03/2014 - 7:43pm
I think boycotts that include academics and artists by other academics and artists are just plain stoopid.
And that includes trying to prevent someone like Ahmadinejad from talking on a campus. He should be allowed to give a lecture, and the audience can "boycott" it by not attending, or they can boo him at the end of it, or they can walk out if offended, or they can have a protest line outside of the lecture hall, etc.
When it comes to sports, I would be willing to agree that that's a more complicated situation, partly because "patriotism" of one kind or another is often much more involved (unfortunately in my opinion.) But I don't buy that a boycott is useful there either. President Carter famously ordered a boycott of the 1980 Moscow Olympics, but few think it was of any good consequence. On the other hand, see examples like ping-pong and China. Or the counter-propaganda messages that can be executed by participating in such interaction with one's foes, like Jesse Owens at the 1936 Olympics or the black power salute by Smith and Carlos at the 1968 Olympics.
by artappraiser on Mon, 02/03/2014 - 8:53pm
When I was a freshman in college, Milton Friedman, at or about the time he was advising the Pinochet government, came to campus to speak on economics. It was my first college protest, and we marched, said some fairly nasty things I won't restate here, and then we marched into the auditorium to hear the man speak.
In short, I agree with you, and as much as I detest the Ahmadinejads of the world, it would have been a coup for him had Columbia canceled his invitation to speak. I think the kids who may have heard him that day survived unscathed, and rumor has it that most are now working in New York's finest financial institutions and hedge funds! :)
And, as you recall I'm sure, the boycott of the 1980 Olympics only led to the Soviet boycott of the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles.
That said, and in fairness to those who in good faith believe that a boycott of Israel is proper, the near universal support for the boycott of South Africa is an example of a boycott that worked. Of course, IMO, those who see no daylight between South Africa's apartheid regime and Israel would have to explain that to me. But even if Israel equals South Africa, and I don't believe that and have addressed that comparison on more than one occasion, then does Israel stand alone in that respect among the nations of the world? Is that what justifies the singular focus on the Jewish State by so many folks from all around the world? I just don't believe that to be a defensible argument.
by Bruce Levine on Mon, 02/03/2014 - 9:20pm
Re: the near universal support for the boycott of South Africa is an example of a boycott that worked.
I have nothing against people or organizations boycotting Israeli goods because they don't like their policies. (The Sodastream boycott, to me that is admirable because it's very targeted to the settlement area, doesn't tar Israel as a whole, recognizes that problem is not everyone in Israel.)
Just like I have nothing against the economic tools that the governments of "the West" have used so far to pressure Iran. Like South Africa, the Iran situation is another "boycott" that looks like it finally might bear fruit, once more countries got serious about it. With South Africa, actually it was a similar scenario, just switched--it wasn't until more in the U.S. joined in with the others that it finally had some effect.
It's the cultural exchange boycotts that are stoopid. Especially coming from universities. Especially as regards academics. The principles of academic exchange are so very crucial to civilization as we know it, just like exchanging diplomats. And artistic/cultural exchanges have proven themselves as productive many many times over in history.
I don't even have a problem if the board of a university decides to disinvest from assets in a country or corporation or entity that it feels is doing something immoral or wrong. That has nothing to do with academic freedom or academic interchange. It is not at all the same thing, it's about supporting or not supporting with money.
by artappraiser on Mon, 02/03/2014 - 10:56pm
Eloquently written and appreciated.
by Bruce Levine on Mon, 02/03/2014 - 11:09pm
An honor to hear that from you.
by artappraiser on Tue, 02/04/2014 - 2:05am
The UN put an academic & arts boycott on South Africa to push against apartheid. Paul Simon somewhat broke this to record directly with black musicians, which I think had the effect of bringing South African art and the plight of South African blacks to the rest of the world, to make the situation more untenable than just a boycott.
However, the analogy here would be working directly with Palestinian musicians and academics.
I see academic & arts activities frequently used for political purposes - the Communists were heavily invested in arts as a propaganda tool, and of course used academic exchanges as one way to dilute their political isolation & keep information coming for in for areas like weapons development, energy enhancement, core engineering & physicis..., even if say literature seminars probably didn't have such dire use.
In the case of Israel, the situation is a bit different - the cultural exchanges bestow a sense of normalcy, status quo to the current situation, life goes on - for some. Which rather pisses me off - I don't want my grandkids dealing with another Israel-focused Mideast crisis in 30 years, 60 years.... with US foreign policy still weighted down by this 1 issue.
Anyway, here's Simon on the issue:
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 02/04/2014 - 2:24am
I should have posted Omar Barghouti's Times op-ed piece from last week, but honestly I had missed it until I read about it in the Tracy piece that I link to above. Barghouti is one of the principal spokespersons in support of BDS.
And here's a flurry of letters in response to that piece that are in today's Times, reflecting a variety of views on the BDS issue -- and I think a fairly good cross-section of perspectives.
Everybody's right and everybody's wrong, and that's how we lawyers make a living I guess--or some of us. :)
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 02/04/2014 - 8:28am
The BDS movement is news? Well, I'll be damned.
http://www.bdsmovement.net/2014/2013-round-up-11579
http://www.juancole.com/2012/12/as-jews-with-our-own-painful-history-of-...
http://crookedtimber.org/2014/02/04/an-open-letter-on-the-anti-boycott-b...
From one year ago: Being a year old, Corey Robin's evolving position can be seen. At that time he claims complete uninvolvement in the BDS movement and said he had no strong opinion regarding it. At the 10:28 mark Alan Dershowitz [characteristic?] mischaracterization is discussed briefly. Academic freedom is also addressed along with hypocritical charges related to it.
http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/15297
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 02/04/2014 - 1:03pm
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.572593
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 02/05/2014 - 12:18pm
Lulu,
Thank you for posting the opinion piece, which is probably behind the paywall for most people, and perhaps someone can help us fix that.
I would ask that you try to use the same font as everyone else. When you use big dark letters like that you appear to be shouting. I think the opinion piece is sufficiently clear such that your visual aids are unnecessary.
Thanks for your anticipated courtesies.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 02/05/2014 - 12:31pm
I enjoyed your earlier comments especially the one where you cleverly tried to paint the Israelis as victims of the Boycott Movement. I see this as ostracizing and certainly not victimizing since the Palestinians are the clear winners of that title. There is little chance of Jews ever being victims again with their military power and the most powerful Superpower in world history firmly behind them. Dragging out this old myth just makes you look foolish and weak since no one really buys it anymore.
Neither this boycott nor the one in South Africa will or have ended corrupt regimes but they can help by allowing large numbers of people to publicly shun evil behavior. There are many good people in Israel but they must rise up and end the occupation and exploitation of Palestine, just like the citizens of the US must rise up and end our Imperial evils, until then there is a price to pay for living in Israel.
by Peter (not verified) on Wed, 02/05/2014 - 2:36pm
Here we go again. I really did try to do this Michael.
From 36,000 feet here, Peter has a captive audience. Peter, I consider your accusation that I am trying to be clever something other than good faith discussion, just as I find your admonition that I look foolish to be a violation of the terms of service here, and something other than good faith debate and/or discussion. Some people call what you've done here what one must put up with if he or she wishes to blog. You have to have balls I guess is another way to put it.
My name is Bruce S. Levine, and I live in New York City, and I think I have more balls than any anonymous name caller has. In short, I consider anonymous name callers to be cowardly and stiflers. People like you, nasty anonymous types, ruin places like this, and spoil the necessity of anonymity for so many good people.
I take it you favor all boycotts, any boycott against Israel. Why don't you focus on that unique and profound position? And see if you can do it like a grown up.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 02/05/2014 - 5:48pm
I must have hit a nerve here Bruce and you reacted by becoming defensive, avoiding the subject and claiming to be the victim, again, nice little closed universe you inhabit. I certainly hope you don't use this kind of logic and discourse in court when challenged about your statements.
I was born in Alabama and todays Israel makes that state look enlightened. A minimally effective boycott of Israel pales in comparison with Israel's Blockade and starving of Gaza.
by Peter (not verified) on Wed, 02/05/2014 - 7:59pm
I do think Bruce can be a little sensitive at times (that said, I can be a little insensitive at times), but when you say things like "cleverly try to paint", it would be hard for most people not to become a bit defensive.
by Verified Atheist on Wed, 02/05/2014 - 8:03pm
[Comment edited]
by Peter (not verified) on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 10:34am
[Response deleted by me on my own and without request because I appreciate management's tempered but justified response in deleting Peter's piece (not Peter Schwartz). I do reiterate that the purpose of this thread is to try to allow folks, all folks, to opine on the merits of BDS and related boycott actions. I thought that this thread presented a fairly inclusive set of positions on the subject, with my only comment that I think we shouldn't use large font because that seems like shouting. I do not apologize for my sensitivities, but honestly the purpose of this post is not to trick or deceive anyone into creating victims out of Israelis at the expense of Palestinians--G-d forbid.]
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 1:29pm
Peter (not verified), you may be unfamiliar with how things work at dagblog. What you call "walking on eggshells" is people being civil, an atmosphere that we moderators work very hard to maintain. Please refrain from personal attacks against other participants, thank you.
by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 1:04pm
It's difficult to be impersonal when you are challenging someone's statements but I attempted to walk that line and apparently failed. What you see as being "civil' in this case I still see as being deferential and manipulated [edited]
by Peter (not verified) on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 4:34pm
If you focus on the content of people's comments rather than their character, intelligence, etc., it shouldn't be too hard. Moderation is inherently subjective, but we try to be as fair as we can about it. Bruce has received his share of moderation in the past as well. Thank you for trying to stay within the lines.
by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 4:48pm
Peter,
I intend to put this behind us. I hope you do too.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 7:43pm
The sanctions on South Africa worked.
by Aaron Carine on Wed, 02/05/2014 - 6:07pm
That depends on how you define "worked", if you mean they had an effect you are correct but if you mean they ended apartheid then you are claiming that all the resistance and suffering of Black South Africans was secondary to the contribution of White Westerners.
by Peter (not verified) on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 10:47am
Sanctions combined with internal resistance ended apartheid.
by Aaron Carine on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 5:09pm
A few points...
"Jews" don't have military power that is "theirs." As a Jew living in the U.S. I have no military power that you, an Alabama boy, don't have.
"Jews" don't have "the most powerful Superpower in world history firmly behind them" any more than you, an Alabama boy, do.
If Jews did have all this military fire power to protect them, then they would've had protection against the bombing of the community center in Buenos Aires or the Goldenberg deli in Paris or the commuter plane in Panama, in which about 100 ordinary Jewish citizens died. I believe about 1,900 Jews "disappeared" in Argentina--where was "their military" then?
The "old myth" that Jews have been oppressed by the majority cultures where they lived, including in Alabama, isn't a myth. It's a long, oft-repeated historical truth.
In fact, in 20th-century Germany, Jews were far more assimilated "as Germans" than they are now "as Americans" or as members of many other modern countries, such as France or Argentina today.
No German Jew imagined he was anything other than a German in good standing, especially if he'd been awarded the Iron Cross for his service in WWI on Germany's behalf, until the Nazis turned him into "a Jew" and thereby justified his extermination. In some ways, the Holocaust was less probable then than now, though there is the power of historical precedent to help us from making the same mistake.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 12:00pm
No, Oxfam Has Not Called for a Boycott of Israel
Feb. 5 @ The Lede @ nytimes.com
by artappraiser on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 2:02pm
When people say that the ASA boycott violates academic freedom they seem to assume that academic freedom in Israel/Palestine exists. But for the boycott, goes the argument, there would be academic freedom. But as this fact sheet by the Institute for Middle East Understanding suggests, that is not the case for Palestinians.
http://coreyrobin.com/2014/02/06/but-for-the-boycott-there-would-be-acad...
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 2:19pm
I would agree with Robin's principal point about Palestinian students' and academics' freedom of movement, but this first sentence simply turns upside down the claim.
The claim isn't that academic freedom exists in IP.
The claim is that an academic boycott of Israeli academics would restrict academic freedom. Sticking to what is true is stronger, IMO; clever inversions are only that.
Disproving what isn't being claimed is tedious.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 3:27pm
You must have misread the first paragraph. The first sentence is not that ambiguous, IMO, but if it is then he second sentence should make the first completely clear. The point is that opponents of the boycott see this claimed restriction of academic freedom of Israelis as a wrong worth preventing but ignore that it is the long term and ongoing situation of the Palestinian academics and students and that it is so because of Israeli policies.
It is typical of a one sided argument to suggest that this voluntary symbolic act, [boycott] which has little actual arbitrary affect on Israeli academics, is a breach of civilized norms while ignoring that the compulsory and often brutal restriction of academic freedom of the Palestinians, which has great and lasting affect, is being carried out by Israel at the same time that its supporters and apologists complain that it is unfair and somehow fundamentally wrong to restrict academic freedom in any way but which has only become important to them and worth resisting when some small restrictions might fall on Israelis.They talk as if academic freedom has existed in I/P until now but the boycott will be what destroys it.
I am not suggesting that you make those arguments.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 6:17pm
If it has little affect, then why is it being proposed?
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 6:34pm
As far as the ASA which seems to have put this subject into the U.S. news goes, it is beyond a proposal, their boycott is in affect. It is one small symbolic step along what they hope is a peaceful path towards change and presumably they hope others will follow. For others, the proposal of a wider boycott is for the purpose of having a big affect on the larger picture. If they become numerous enough there will be some big affect, and it is hoped [by most involved, there are always some with ulterior motives] for the better of all involved in, or concerned with, I/P issues.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 6:53pm
Those readers who have seen New York's Legislature in action might not be too shocked to see that folks opposed to the ASA boycott on academic freedom grounds introduced legislation that would defund the boycotters! Apparently some of New York's "finest" were unaware that the Supreme Court decided eons ago that the First Amendment to the Constiution is applicable to the states. I kid you not. Fortunately, the bill was defeated by a coalition that included both the state teachers' union (groovy) and the American Jewish Committee. You could make this stuff up but in Albany you don't even have to.
Also, those particularly focused on academic freedom in the State of Israel might find last month's report by the Forward interesting or compelling.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 7:42pm
Just wanted to link to Flavius' blog, which reviews the position of Juan Cole on the subject of boycotts and Israel.
by Bruce Levine on Thu, 02/06/2014 - 7:57pm
Thomas Friedman's column today is on topic.
by artappraiser on Wed, 02/12/2014 - 12:28am
Good article.
by Resistance on Wed, 02/12/2014 - 2:03am
in case you missed it:
West Bank Boycott: A Political Act or Prejudice?
By Jodi Rudoren in Jerusalem, New York Times, Feb. 11/12, 2014
by artappraiser on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 3:56pm
Those who would boycott Israeli academics might consider Tom Friedman this morning.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 1:13am
Tom as usual is a bit paranoid. Many like yours truly simply would like to see Israel take the steps to find a reasonably fair long-lasting solution for the people & territory it overran on the road to Zion - not a return to 1948 or before.
I don't particularly care whether it's a 2-state solution, but I don't think either side respects the other enough to work within the same system well enough, so it seems to be de facto the only viable option. I don't think a hodge-podge of tiny enclaves is viable, so 1 or max 2 contiguous pieces of territory as "Palestine" is likely needed. I think without a piece of Jerusalem for Arabs to call Jerusalem will after all this time just stick in their craw and be a problem for further generations - give them a slice wheter it's an isolated West Berlin or whatever. And then everybody has to figure out how to help Palestine develop a real economy, and to get a life beyond screaming about Israel.
And the selfish part of me wants Israel and Palestine to fade into perhaps the 20th or 50th most important area of our foreign policy, behind EU, China, Russia, trade deals, global warming, ....
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 9:09am
I am hardly a fan of Tom Friedman, although I thought that the book he wrote way back in the 80s (from Beirut to Jerusalem) right after Sabra and Shatila was and remains a worthwhile read in order to gain a general understanding of the Middle East. It remains a useful but hardly sufficient read, I think (for those of us who don't understand Hebrew and/or Arabic in any event).
I think I wrote earlier about a book that I just finished reading that I cannot recommend more highly, as painful as it is for some of us. That's Ari Shavit's, My Promised Land. [Edited to add that as someone who is somewhat focused on this stuff I continue to find it strange to be seen as an Israel right or wronger around places like Dag, when for example one sees the attacks being levied at Shavit by my fellow Zionists because of what he has written.] But Shavit's history would be painful for anyone who for whatever reason believes that he or she has skin in this game. Shavit is a correspondent for Haaretz and he wrote this book in English and for folks like us who don't live in the neighborhood.
As to BDS, I think I posed the question at one point to our colleagues here with respect to what it is that folks wish to accomplish. I don't think most folks here would hope to see Israel cease to exist -- a novel concept for a country that exists as I do think Friedman points out. But, in fact, Israel will cease to exist under Barghouti's third prong forming the basis of BDS, i.e. the right of return for all descendants of the refugees from 1948. That will destroy Israel as a Jewish State, because a Jewish minority in the current Middle East means more of the same -- probably. I think most Israelis and those of us who see the need for a Jewish homeland are not willing to take that chance -- not anymore. [Edited to add that this is why (I suspect anyway) a supporter of a binational state like JR favors partition of various Middle Eastern countries facing similar issues in their own post-WWI nations.]
I agree that a two-state solution is anything but perfect, but I also believe that Secretary Kerry is getting at least close to a framework within which final status remains plausible. We'll see.
My position is that folks should do what they truly believe is right in their heart. And I guess I just don't understand how a boycott of Israel is pushed by so many who have never been there or anywhere near the Middle East, and yet are singularly focused on Israel as a nation to be boycotted -- even their academics, which I just find incomprehensible, and which is really why I posted Friedman's column (the BDS stuff is more of an aside). And if I know Friedman, he'll be returning soon enough to pounding away at Israel (for reasons I will likely agree and disagree with).
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 11:25am
Parsing that sentence reveals a bit of ambiguity. If Friedman is makin an all inclusive statement suggesting that anyone who supports the BDS movement has the desires he suggests, de-legitimization as a state, then he is a wrong as he has so often been in the past. If he is suggesting that some who support BDS want too much, some of which most supporters of BDS do not want, then of course he is correct.
That is probably a fair example of those who want too much. The thing is, those who want too much, I believe, do not have the power of numbers and influence necessary to sustain a boycott beyond a time when a reasonable deal has been worked out regarding the Palestinians. A reasonable deal, if brought forth by the boycott or by any other pressure or even by a simple respect for human rights, will be plenty enough to end the boycott long before it pressures Israel's existence as a Jewish state, I believe.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:16pm
I certainly cannot speak for Friedman; he's a peculiar egg, but I think what he may be referring to is the "official" position of the BDS movement, as expressed by Mr. Barghouti.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:38pm
Well, sometimes the "official" position is staking out 50% or 100% more than what you'll settle for or think you'll get. Perhaps that's why Israelis insist on "not 1 Palestinian return", figuring in the end they'll settle for a few thousand and that will be it. Frankly I'm so sick of the posturing on both sides.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 3:32pm
Just on the topic of Friedman. I am under the impression that what he thinks on the issue is taken seriously in Israel. That he has like inherited Willam Safire's role as "important American opinion on us that we need to pay attention to." Am I correct? Or has he also become in Israel more like the ridiculed guy with tired memes that he has become in the U.S. blogosphere?
by artappraiser on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:45pm
AA, it's an excellent question and candidly I do not know the answer. I do know that he does not like Bibi one iota and I would suspect that he doesn't have the kind of access that Safire had back in the day. If I were to guess, I would look to the access that a guy like Jeffrey Goldberg now has as being more analogous to the role played by Safire. That said, I have no doubt that the Israeli government (up and down and in and out) play very close attention to Tom Friedman, and I'm sure there's quite a few journalists who would love to have his Middle East rolodex (you remember them?).
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:59pm
I also get the impression that Jeff Goldberg is taken more seriously by all parties concerned (even the people that dislike him!) And then I thought of David Ignatius, he clearly has more access to V.I.P. sources, and that's more like Safire.
by artappraiser on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 1:07pm
And the selfish part of me wants Israel and Palestine to fade into perhaps the 20th or 50th most important area of our foreign policy, behind EU, China, Russia, trade deals, global warming, ....
Same here. One doesn't have to even go that far. Since doing comparative suffering competitions have been popular on this site lately, I'd like to throw this one in mix: just compare/contrast Palestinian suffering and current Syrian and Iraqi suffering. And tell me why manning boycott barricades against Israel is something so utterly important, for Americans to do, such a high priority. Anyone who really believes that a solution to the IP troubles would do much to solve any other problems in that neighborhood, I got a bridge to sell 'em. Might just as well make things worse elsewhere (er Egypt, for example.)
I tend to think people who fixate on it have a problem with big picture. And that in some cases, I do buy that it's anti-semitism. But I am starting to suspect John Kerry has this problem, too, so it's not all anti-semites. Prove me wrong, John Kerry, I'm still wondering why you're on this so hard when there's so many other troubles.
Something I always throw into my mix in my attitude about this: the results of the "two-state solution" chosen by Pakistan and India. I don't get all excited about the possibilities of a two-state solution in IP should one miraculously occur...like you say And then everybody has to figure out how to help Palestine develop a real economy, and to get a life beyond screaming about Israel.
by artappraiser on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:36pm
Interesting, I didn't really focus on this point. I guess that the standard perspective from the really smart diplomats and stuff is that as the two-state solution goes, so goes worldwide peace and understanding. In fairness to Secretary Kerry, he does not appear to be singularly focused on IP, but in fact is heavily invested in what is happening in Syria and to a lesser extent in Iraq, and he seems to have a fairly important place at (or near) the table for negotiations with Iran. I think I've come to appreciate him, and I really am interested in what historians will say about the extent to which both HRC and Kerry under Obama have returned influence to Foggy Bottom (at the expense of the president's national security team in the White House).
Of course, beyond the Middle East, I think as you and PP seem to agree on, not sure how much we're properly focused on other critical foreign policy issues, including climate change, what the Ukrainian situation means for future European stability, how we can continue to foster improved relations with our American neighbors to our south, and then of course I do hear tell that there is some country that they call China.
Finally, I studiously tried to avoid the quicksand the other day of parsing comparative sufferings -- although I do appreciate that others felt obliged to delve into that area in light of the circumstances in which the issue arose. Been there done that on occasion (as you may have noticed)! :)
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:55pm
I should add that I do not begrudge any person of Jewish heritage thinking that Israel's problems are of utmost interest, because of the unique reason for its founding. I do see that as quite different from me being interested in the country of my grandparents, or of Arabs being interested in Palestinians because they are "brothers." Again, there is a unique reason for its existence as a nation. But ironically, that is also why the situation has some equivalence to the Pakistan/India story....
by artappraiser on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 1:16pm
Ukraine's a backwater - means little for anything.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 3:37pm
So suppose we rate ten bad situations from one to ten as to their severity. We, as a nation, along with many other powers, have various levels of responsibility in creating those ten problems but history is yesterday and we can only move forward from today.
Now suppose we decide to help change the situation in number ten for the better. That would probably mean sanctions that would starve people, or bombing which would kill people, or even an invasion followed by an occupation which would get many of our soldiers killed and cost money we do not have. All these solutions amount to curing by killing while creating more enemies with no reasonable expectation that we can pull off a cure. Then, as soon as we have some success with number ten it devolves to the number nine problem place and we are now obligated, by your logic, to drop it and go deal with the old number nine, now the new number ten, since we cannot solve every problem everywhere.
Speaking from the point of view of someone sympathetic to the Palestinians plight, I agree that their situation is not the worst of any group of people in the world, but to the extent that it is bad, we, the American people, have an ongoing part in making it bad and so we have a more direct responsibility to do something about it. The BDS movement has the chance to have a good affect using peaceful, non-lethal actions.
Worth a try, I say.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 1:17pm
It could easily be argued that the U.S. has a hell of a lot more responsibility for the situation that Iraqis are in today.
by artappraiser on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 1:31pm
Yeah, I thought I covered that point even without getting specific so as to also include the many other unconscionable things we [and other countries] have done, often in the name of spreading democracy. I'm all for hearing any ideas you may have as to dealing with Iraq fairly and productively going forward. If any such idea is non-lethal and looks like it has a fair chance to work I'll almost certainly be for trying it, and if it does work I'll recommend you to the Nobel committee. In the event of success, a small kickback would be appreciated.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 1:46pm
Yeah, well, who woulda thunk that America invading Iraq would keep the country in a simmering hell for 10 years rather than an improvement. Guess Marshall plans only come once in a century.
But no, I think you're being unduly pessimistic to think that solving the IP situation would be at best a draw, at worse a disintegration. And 1 big difference is that the IP situation is technically not an internal problem, which many of the other Mideast situations are - and once upon a time we kinda professed we'd leave internal problems alone. These days we insist that regime change is our God-given right, though we seem to have lost some of the moral compass that made say or backing of the Orange Revolution or Solidarnosc admirable.
As for the people of Syria, I think we just discovered them the same as discovering there were women in Afghanistan, about the time we wanted to swap governments. That fickle interest will fade quickly. Only issue with Syria is we realized a bit late, but not too late, that our regime changers were worse than the changees, something we got lucky on in Libya while the jury's a bit out on Egypt.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 3:53pm
by artappraiser on Tue, 03/04/2014 - 2:25pm