MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Comments
If anyone ever asks again why I'm not voting for Obama in 2012, I'm just linking to this article and that appalling Osama Bin Laden head on a pike ad.
Good Lord, he is even worse than I thought.
by Anonymous Dijamo (not verified) on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 10:29am
The "Let God sort them out," attitude is particularly hideous:
by Michael Maiello on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 10:49am
The most grotesque part for me is that we are proposing the murder of children (including American children) suspected of Al Qaeda complicity, interaction (who knows what the standard of proof is). Not just proposing it secretly, but intentionally blasting it on the pages of the NYT so Obama can thump his chest about what an awesome war president he is. Brings even more skepticism to the ridiculous claims we allegedly weren't targeting Al-Awlaki's 16 year old son or didn't know his true age.
But we can't have information about the decision to assassinate American citizens that because it's classified of course...until the Obama campaign wants to brag and boast about how many people the president is responsible for having killed to the NYT as part of his elections efforts.
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 12:04pm
Here are a few questions:
• If a person is plotting to blow up a plane with hundreds of passengers from a redoubt in Yemen, what difference does it make that he's an American?
• What kind of proof would you propose and acquired how?
• Who should decide whether the proof is credible or sufficient?
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 12:33pm
Maybe a court of law even in absentia, not only for, but particularly in the case of American citizens being targeted for assassination? Some sort of independent review? It's not perfect since the accused can't defend themselves, but at least it would be some independent accounting for or test of the alleged proof that we hold. Not all wrapped up in one executive authority with the President being judge, jury and executioner.
CTFO, if this was George W. Bush you would be defending this standard of proof for targeted assassinations? Are other countries allowed to do this too? Syria I'm sure has some executive review for their assassinations too, but we are "outraged" by that. Thsi is not a leftie fringe out there theory I'm espousing. Typically Democrats used to stand for that when it was candidate Obama, but now that he's President Obama it's all good and you'll trust Mitt Romney and any future presidents no matter how warmongering with the exact same authority.
If the mainstream Democratic party stands by this, it is a party I want no part of ... (Until November 12, 2012 when I will be fighting tooth and nail to save the Democratic party from your wing of the party that supports this crap).
by Anonymous Dijamo (not verified) on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 12:59pm
You seem willing to trust Mitt...
I would support your idea in theory if it were practically doable. I'm not sure it is, especially if it were a public trial and it dragged on.
I'm against the use of drones, except in a real war. So I would stop their use.
I guess that means trying to stop attacks at the border or through cooperation with local intelligence and police in the countries involved.
I think that means some attacks may well get through (they may anyway) and the American public needs to be educated about this reality, so that we don't lunge toward fascism any faster than we already are.
We should brag loudly and often about why we're doing it this way so that everyone know we're trying to live out our values.
The now much-maligned Mahrer once held up a picture of Galveston after a hurricane had destroyed it and said that, had this wreckage been the result of a terrorist attack, we Americans would have lost our collective shit and invaded 10 countries.
But because it was only a hurricane, we went quietly about the business of rebuilding and burying our dead.
Maybe a Republican needs to be the one to do this educating. Democrats who try, however feebly, end up being likened to Jimmy Carter or worse. Is there worse?
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 2:34pm
What values? He that acquires the most toys wins?
Or do you mean the Golden Rule value
He that has the gold; rules.
Free speech will soon be a value, we lost.
Be careful what you say; you might be considered a sympathizer
You're either with Us or against Us.
Whose Us?
by Resistance on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 4:22pm
What ad are you referring to - I couldn't find an image of such a thing in a quick search, let alone one connected to a political advertisement. The only reference to a politician talking about Osama's head and a pike was none other than Sarah Palin.
by Elusive Trope on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 12:15pm
I was referring to the ad where Bill Clinton talks about Obama's role in killing Bin Laden and then the ad questions whether Romney would have done the same thing. Truly the most disgusting political ad I've seen from a democrat ever and it pushed me from simply abstaining from voting for President to deciding to vote for Romney.
http://youtu.be/BD75KOoNR9k
But I guess when you have a crappy record the only positive thing he'll be running on is I GOT BIN LADEN, so we can expect pictures, more leaks, sharing (cough cough) classified information with film makers so they can make some hagiographic movie of how Obama got Bin Laden and such as it gets closer to the election time.
And when it all comes down to it, he'll lose anyway because you only get to kill Bin Laden once. It's not going to be a factor in the 2012 election.
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 12:28pm
Why do you find this disgusting?
Because it somehow impugns Romney's "patriotism"...guts... or brags about Obama's willingness to kill OBL?
You do understand, of course, that you will be voting for a party that has done nothing but brag about their military bravado and not needing "permission slips" before they embark on much more deadly and destructive exploits than this, yes?
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 12:40pm
I find it disgusting that the killing of Osama Bin Laden is politicized in a campaign ad obliquely. Period. If it was George W. Bush, if it was Barack Obama, if it was Bill Clinton. It's heinous and has no part in a campaign environment. It is a sign that Obama's campaign is desperate and has virtually nothing positive to run on except killing Bin Laden. And this is so early in the campaign season, can't wait to see how far Obama degrades his "legacy" with an ugly campaign style while Romeny tries to keep it on substantive issues.
I am sure if GWB was the person who "got" Osama before the 2004 election and came out with an ad like this v. Kerry you would have been similarly impressed and unoffended by it.Again CTFO. Sometimes wrong is wrong even if it's Obama that does it.
by Anonymous Dijamo (not verified) on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:09pm
CTFO?
by quinn esq on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:20pm
Come the F#%! on. The f word offends my sensibilities, but targeted assassinations are cool.
by Anonymous Dijamo (not verified) on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:50pm
Apparently, you're cool with the killing, but not with the person who ordered the killing taking responsibility for it.
Maybe you're cool with your man's party claiming that everyone else was responsible for the killing but the man who ordered it.
Not much disgusting politicization going on there, eh?
Maybe you're cool with your man, MR, saying, "Don't be silly! Of course I would have done it. Even Jimmy Carter would have done that!"
Ah, Jimmy Carter, forever the icon of military impotence among Democrats. Not much politicization going on there--eh?
So ironic, the one president who's done more for peace in the WH and especially afterward, being used as a punching bag, if not a punch line, by the guy you support because the other guy, whom you used to support (I guess), is not, what? "pro-peace," "pro good taste in campaigns?" enough.
I wonder if Jimmy Carter is voting for Romney...
But please don't mistake this for a defense of Obama The Infallible, nor an attempt to dissuade you from your considered course of action.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 2:19pm
You do get that I am being sarcastic when I say the killings are cool right? But yes, it gets worse when there is one Decider responsible for it all. Talk about a God complex.
And Mitt Romney is not my man. He's just the moderate Republican (R) I will be voting for in 2012, as opposed to Obama the moderate Republican (D) I voted for in 2008. Granted I knew Obama was a moderate Republican on health care reform, foreclosures, economic issues, so I can't fault him too badly for being the president I knew he would be. On targeted killings, civil liberties etc... there is no way to reconcile the candidate he was to the policies he carries out today. The difference between President Obama and President Romney on these issues is at least President Romney will be challenged by the mainstream Democratic party, rather than Obama and his supporters dismissing the very real moral failings of this President and pushing what used to be pretty standard core democratic party beliefs further and further out of the margins.
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 3:45pm
Sarcasm alert*
How dare you speak the Truth; get back in the dark pit until you learn your place.
by Resistance on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 4:11pm
As someone noted, there's no talk of foreign policy because there's no light between the 2. As Dean Acheson said, "politics ends at the water's edge". Or at least gets joined at the hip.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 4:13pm
So if there's no light between the two on foreign policy, then foreign policy isn't a reason to switch your vote to Romney, is it?
Maybe your vote should be based on other things.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 4:36pm
Well, it's just that you seemed to be most upset by the advertisement...
If you work and vote for Romney, he IS your man, whether you cross your fingers behind your back or not. Work is work and a vote is a vote. They don't come with signing statements that allow you to hedge their impact. At least man up to that.
The future is a mystery and, who knows, Romney could surprise everyone. So with that caveat in place, here's how I see it:
• When Democrats have been beaten at the national level, they've tended to interpret it as a rejection of progressive values and moved to the right. After losing three elections in the 1980s (and most of them in the 1970s), we got Clinton.
When Clinton took a shellacking in 1994, he moved to the right. We got welfare reform and a few sidewinders sent into Sudan. We got the end of big government. We got deregulation.
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting these events, but it seems to me that Democrats do NOT become staunch progressives when they lose. They try to emulate the winners. In this case, they might say that it was the economy that beat them, so it might work out differently.
• In Bush's case, he and the Republicans were so egregious in their failings, ethical and otherwise, I'm not sure any Republican had a chance. It wasn't so much that Democrats became bold challengers as it was that the Republicans imploded. I was shocked that Bush won a second term, and they held on to the Congress until 2006. "Take this WH...please!"
• So while a Romney presidency might awaken the progressive conscience of the Democratic Party, his victory could easily be viewed as a vindication of conservative values (and the vanquishing of progressive values) and their "tough love" medicine for the entitlement society.
Needless to say, we can expect terrorists to continue to get the "tough love" Obama is meting out now that you decry. Maybe worse, if we can believe Romney's bellicosity on Iran.
How credible will Democrats be in challenging Romney on targeted kill policies that they acquiesced to just a few short months earlier? Not very.
We already went through this with Democratic votes for the AUMF and the invasion coming back to haunt us. All Romney needs is one successful terrorist attack early in his first term (which he can blame on Obama's well-known laxity and appeasement in these matters) and we're right back where we started, only this time with Iran...or Yemen...or somewhere.
Anyway, I admit, Romney appears to be a moderate natively. But he's having to operate within a very conservative and whacked out party which may not give him much running room. Once you've sworn three times on a Bible that you hate gays and Iranians, it's a wee bit difficult to say, "Just kidding!" Especially if you want to be a two-termer.
I tend to think that losing is never a good idea, unless maybe you're losing for something that you are for and that for was a credible effort, as with Barry Goldwater.
It's even worse if you're helping your own erstwhile guy to lose; the vote is a blunt message, and the subtleties of a "negative vote" are too convoluted for most people to grok. They tend to say:
"See? Even his former supporters have seen the light and turned against him!" And everything he stood for, like government-run health care, financial regulation.
Anyway, good discussion. Thanks. I'm over and out for a while.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 4:32pm
Keep it on substantive issues?
Perhaps you missed the primaries.
Anyway...
Here's what I find interesting. For the first three years, Obama tried the bipartisan approach to governing, assuming that the GOP would want to meet in the middle, hash out differences, and solve problems for the good of the country.
But almost from the beginning, progressives yelled: "Fuck that shit! Don't you see who you're dealing with? Look at what they're doing. Beat their heads in!"
And beyond this, progressives complained that congressional obstructionism shouldn't hold him back. He acquiesced too much to Congress and needed to take action on his own, even when non-existent congressional approval would be required.
So then we had Libya, pretty clearly a humanitarian attempt to save Libyan lives, and progressives complained, "Hey, you went around Congress!" And the GOP joined in, not because they objected to the use of military force abroad, but because it was a good opportunity to team up with Obama "supporters" to bash Obama.
And now we have this ad. Yes, it's hardball. Yes, it may be close a line. But hey, progressives have implored Obama to play hardball even in cases where defeat in Congress was virtually certain.
I find this a rather tame politicization of an important event in the effort to defeat a party that has politicized EVERYTHING--real and imagined--in an effort to defeat us. Moreover, it's a real accomplishment, a decision he said clearly he would make back when progressives were thrilled with him.
If he can't campaign on things he said he would do and did--what can he campaign on? If he can't point out differences between him and his opponent, what can he do?
If Romney, ever the pursuer of substance, is willing to say of course he would have ordered the killing of OBL, "even Jimmy Carter would have made that decision," when he clearly intimated he would not have, then I say too bad for him.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:41pm
we've got a difference in opinion about what is disgusting
by Elusive Trope on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 12:51pm
Yes, you found the 3 a.m. ad heinous, but this one is A- ok. Because it's Obama. True to form as usual.
by Anonymous Dijamo (not verified) on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:01pm
Do you want to show some evidence that I called that ad heinous. The primary issue I did have with the ad was that was an ad directed toward someone within one's own party. Nor would I say the Bill Clinton ad gives me the warm fuzzies. But it is politics. I don't expect them to be angels, but during the primaries to try and not undermine the other should they make it to the general election. Clinton used the "your children are safe and asleep" angle rather than discuss what it is about her approach makes her better when she picks up the phone. It was done a pathetic fear mongering way.
Obama trying to get some political mileage out of killing the person who masterminded the 9/11 attacks, not to mention other terrorist attacks doesn't really phase me at. Wouldn't phase me if Clinton did it, if she was president. Nor McCain or Bush. It is what they want to do with that mileage that I focus on.
That the ad also tried to undermine Romney doesn't phase me either. Just as Obama thought the fundamental question being asked in the ad was appropriate to ask. ("The question is not picking up the phone. The question is what kind of judgment will you exercise when you pick up that phone.") Had Clinton pointed to something about Obama and his actions / positions that would lead one to question his judgment...fine. But focusing on some sleeping (white) child...not cool.
by Elusive Trope on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:26pm
Ummm, it is politics and when in the primary you use the means at your disposal to try to win, not gloss over your opponent's vulnerabilities like they don't exist. Hillary's implication was generally that Barack Obama was unprepared to lead. Gingrich rolled out the Bain attacks before Obama did. I'm sure you would have been less offended if it was a white or asian child. I mean who the fuck cares, wasn't the point of the ad. No one goes around hugging each other in the primaries, but you expected that because he's Obama and how dare anyone question or criticize Obama. He is above critique or question for you, I get that.
Obama's ad is a disgusting use of the killing of Osama bin Laden and an overt attempt to use it to his political advantage. That is viscerally disgusting to me, but you're cool with it. How surprising.
by Anonymous Dijamo (not verified) on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:46pm
And how dare anyone question, discuss, or argue back! I get it. They must simply be in the bag for Obama, right or wrong.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:57pm
Mission Accomplished ..... 2012 .........REALLY?
by Resistance on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 2:11pm
There are some, count me as one of them, that believes one campaigns a little different in the primary than in the general election. And I'm not saying that the ad was heinous, or the most disgusting thing ever done - just it was inappropriately over the top on the fear mongering for a primary campaign spot. Obviously it wasn't effective enough since Obama went on to victory.
If one doesn't accept we are actually at war with Al Qaeda, then I suppose one might see this ad as something other than appropriate. But for a sitting president to point out that he was able to lead and take action against the group with whom we are at war, making the same basic point that Clinton was trying to make in her ad, then it within the realm of appropriateness. War is shit. But it is part of being a president - something both Obama and Hillary Clinton (and Bill) are aware of.
What is disgusting to me is that we live in a world in which we have to have presidents like this. But I don't Obama for the way of the world. His ad merely says, he has the ability to make the tough choices when they arrive on his desk - sometimes those tough choices involve the loss of human life.
by Elusive Trope on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 2:22pm
As I recall, the point of that ad was that Hillary had experience with 3 am calls and Obama did not.
But back then, progressives considered experience to be a bad thing, or at least an unnecessary thing.
"Look at all the bad and stupid things those folks with lots of experience just did."
Of course, an "experienced Obama" would have been the best of all worlds--maybe-- but there was no such animal on offer.
Unless you want to count Kucinich whom progressives loved, but never gave money to. I remember his appearance at a gay forum, where Etheridge swooned over him, and all he could say was, "If you love me this much, why aren't you forking over the dollars I need to win this thing?"
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:51pm
The ad came out at the end of February, after Obama won every contest that month after he squeaked out a win on Super Tuesday. The two sides were about as hot and passionate as any point in the campaign. Obama supporters were talking about Hillary stepping aside and then she came out with this ad that gave the republicans an advantage (McCain did eventually us the 3am thing in his own ad). After South Carolina, there was always an eye toward anything that might also be considered racist, just as those on the Clinton side always had an eye toward anything that might also be considered sexist.
It does all seem like a lifetime ago.
by Elusive Trope on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 2:37pm
It was interesting listening to Joe Scarborough this morning be the one on the panel most against this - but he was coming from the president needs to have plausible deniability. So he wasn't arguing not to have the kill list, just that it is somehow once or twice removed from the president himself.
The rest on the panel seemed to basically to applaud Obama for stepping up and taking the moral responsibility for these decisions.
by Elusive Trope on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 10:51am
I think it's pretty clear that the President doesn't want plausible deniability here. On one level, I completely buy his moral stance that it's his job to police the program and to take credit for its failures and blame for its errors and omissions. But, also, on a political level, I think he wants to take credit for what goes right.
by Michael Maiello on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 11:19am
That was what the rest of the panel was saying - and then Joe kind of sputtered and then went on about how if this about Bush, the NY Times and others would be all over him about it, and everyone reminded him about the "trading cards" and there wasn't the reaction he said would be there. So then he went on about how in ten years there will be all these liberals wringing their hands about this, and everyone just laughed and said "well, that's what liberals do."
by Elusive Trope on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 11:23am
This is such a silly argument!
by Michael Maiello on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 11:30am
I don't expect to see too many deep and well-reasoned arguments around the "kill list" - kind of like "death panel"
by Elusive Trope on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 11:46am
on a political level, I think he wants to take credit for what goes right.
No kidding, that is very clear from this sentence in the article:
I don't believe I've ever seen an article based on three dozen administration sources while the administration was still in office. Clearly, there's a talking points memo for all of them to follow, otherwise so many sources would not produce a consistent story like this one.
And the writers of that memo have had a smashing success, they got the buzz intended--the story has hit the trifecta, currently #1 on all three New York Times' "most popular" lists. Just as clear to me: they don't care about the votes of the people who find what's in the story appalling.
by artappraiser on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 12:38pm
Why should they care?
Those people have already made clear they are withholding their support and maybe voting for Obama...but hey, maybe not.
What goes around, comes around. That's what "progressives" keep telling me.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:03pm
Time for a Theocracy?
by Resistance on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 10:59am
No. Definitely No. No. No. No. No. No. Did I mention no.
by Elusive Trope on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 11:01am
Everyone else is playing God,
by Resistance on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:49pm
Yeah replacing them with some others who say they can talk to God is going to make it so much better.
by Elusive Trope on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 2:40pm
It was for the Nation of Israel, who listened to Moses and escaped the slavery of Egypt.
If you want to escape the slavery of the plutocracy; and those bent on human domination; listen to the law giver; whose laws apply to rich and poor, to the weak and powerful alike. No preferential treatment.
It's easy to identify who listens and who doesn't, when everyone has the same law book and the law is equally applied.
by Resistance on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 4:06pm
Yeah because there is absolutely no disagreement about what the exact wording of the Bible is amongst Christians, and nor can one find where there is any disagreement about how to interpret those lines in the Bible, and nor can one find any disagreement amongst Christians about how to apply those interpretations into real world policies and rules by which to live. What is really great is to see all the harmony over how to view same-sex marriage amongst all the Christians.
Of course if we were all Amish, the world would be a better place.
by Elusive Trope on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 4:40pm
Would you prefer
A just machine to make big decisions
Programmed by fellows with compassion and vision
We'll be clean when their work is done
We'll be eternally free yes and eternally young
What a beautiful world this will be
What a glorious time to be free
by Resistance on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 1:21am
VERY good article, Genghis.
It shows what a shit sandwich of choices he faces.
Of course, the right thing to do is address the root causes of terrorism, as Clinton is quoted as saying.
But in the meantime, what to do?
The practical problem--aside from the legal and moral problems--is that every drone strike inflames the root causes. But any successful terrorist attack will surely send this country toward garrison statehood.
One of the points buried in the middle of the article was Obama's failure to, and shying away from, working with Congress. LBJ-style arm-twisting. He doesn't have the temperament, nor did he build up the relationships, necessary for it.
Carter, as I recall, had this same problem.
And it will be a problem for the next idealistic, values-first, outsider we elect. It doesn't matter if Policy X polls well in the country. It has to get through Congress first.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 11:18am
What I find particularly discouraging is the lack of an overall strategy and its replacement by a "kill by kill" approach.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 11:33am
Was not the overall strategy you are looking for in the Neo-Conservative answer to Islamic terrorism? (I.E., invade and remake societies, win hearts and minds, introduce them to democracy, all that stuff; then one doesn't have to have all that security apparatus that restricts your own citizens' libertarian ways.) If instead you are going to approach the problem along the lines of how we approach criminal activity, that requires an individual-by-individual (or tribe-by-tribe) approach. (Granted: if not extra-judicial killings; that is a separate argument.)
Terrorists, like criminals, do not follow a unified overall strategy; their only strategy is to figure out how to use your system against you, whatever it is at the current time.
By the way, the same line of thought was also in some Neo-Conservative arguments about crime (hello, Newt!)--make them work, keep them busy, they will learn the benefit of being good citizens, and stop being angry and bitter which leads to crime.
by artappraiser on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:12pm
AA, the neo-con strategy is not the ONLY strategy possible, which involved changing societies at the barrel of a gun.
I would say you have to approach it like a criminal/intelligence, individual by individual, on the one hand.
On the other hand, you have to encourage and support--without trying to impose--freer and more democratic societies, particularly indigenous movements. Withdrawing support from Mubarak is an example.
Beyond that, you have to examine, and hopefully change, the role the West has played in screwing up these societies to begin with. I don't mean "we" are wholly responsible, but we played a role and we should change it.
This conversation is much harder to have since so much of our society is tied up in it.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:14pm
How to put this?
We need to find a way to change, broaden, refocus the whole "national security" discussion in America.
Right now, everyone is basically playing with the same set of assumptions and the same understanding of what "the situation" is.
One assumption among many is that a terrorist attack on our soil is unacceptable and virtually no counter measure is off the table if it will prevent such an attack.
No president as things stand now could survive such an attack unless he could show that he'd done everything in his power to avoid it. And that includes killing terrorists plotting in the hills of Yemen.
If liberals think that arguments about due process, morality, and killing children won't be laughed off the stage in the face of a successful terrorist, they are mistaken.
We have to change a much broader conversation and set of assumptions first. The need for a "national security state" is another one of these assumptions.
And the conversation has to be changed in the face of a right-wing that is determined to keep the conversation and assumptions where they are right now.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 12:27pm
How to put this? Hmm, let me think. Gotta try to stay polite here.
I just don't know how we can even attempt to change the conversation and broaden the discussion about national security when an election campaign is in progress. It's too dangerous to try. Our guy, who is a big part of the problem might get damaged. Can't take that chance. We just have to wait until the election is over and then get it done before the next election cycle starts a week later.
And the conversation has to be changed in the face of a right-wing that is determined to keep the conversation and assumptions where they are right now.
Yeah, the right-wing is bad that way. "And the conversation has to be changed". What a dilemma.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 12:52pm
Why change now?
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 12:58pm
I'm all in favour of sending drones across borders to take out the more violent individuals of certain societies.
For example, Pakistan.
As well as any other similar state which has nuclear weapons, an out-of-control spy service and an over-sized military, a dysfunctional democracy and a tendency to assassinate its leaders, vocal fundamentalists running its religious activities, and a national history of bloody separation and civil war.
by quinn esq on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:18pm
Quebec? Chiapas? Islington?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 4:14pm
by jollyroger on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 3:16pm
I find this paragraph to be a great description of Obama, the writers get my kudos:
For those who want the context, it's from page 2, where they also sought out this and noted it:
by artappraiser on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 1:46pm
by EmmaZahn on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 5:06pm
I read the Times and several blogs about the story. A question just occurred to me. If it has been answered I missed it. Did Obama, after hearing the evidence and the debate of the death panel, ever decline to kill someone whom the consensus held was a worthy target, or is he like a FISA judge who has never denied a warrant for surveillance?
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 05/29/2012 - 11:24pm
I believe it's in the article. Yes.
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 9:19am
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 9:31am
That refers to just timing/operational issues, not that he disputed someone was worthy of being killed.
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 10:25am
Right, Dijamo and it is so obvious as far as that one sentence goes.
Then when people loitering in the front yard left, and the "target" went inside, they could blow the house away. Whoops, too bad, didn't know the wife and kids were inside all along. Shit happens. But that kid was big enough to pick up a gun so count him as fair game.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 11:34am
How many people are we talking about? 200 ? As wars go it's small potatoes.And as grounds for permitting Mitt to be elected.
I don't share the interest in how many proposed candidates he rejected. My position on the exercise itself wouldn't be affected by learning that he had rejected 10% or 50%.Neither I suggest would anyone else's here.
FWIW my guess is he rejected a non trivial number because otherwise his approval would have become pro forma and be seen as such. . Which would have undermined his well publicized position-by multiple leaks as AA points out- that he felt he should be personally involved.
BTW If he wanted to ensure he had a feel for the process he could have achieved that by intervening at random. And that would have been a better use of his time.
It's an unpleasant topic and if someone was waiting for a chance to bail out on Obama it's understandable they'd chose it.
If like me you think he's been a good enough president you won't.
Probably what any of us think is irrelevant. The winner is going to be Citizens' United.If incessant marketing can convince americans that Budweiser is drinkable it'll be able to convince them that Mitt is a better choice than Barak. Too bad.
by Flavius on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 12:21pm
You make a good point, but I hope you're wrong.
Speaking of Budweiser:
by Verified Atheist on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 12:25pm
That statement, I strongly suspect, is exactly right. Strike that, I mean exactly correct.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 12:44pm
Flav, it's good to see you commenting; that is all.
by artappraiser on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 12:44pm
I second that. Flav, this, Bud, is for you.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 12:56pm
Thanks. I've been researching our pre Obamacare Health Care System the old fashioned way. By getting sick.
The only thing I read in the hospital was the Steve Jobs biography.Thought provoking.
Also comment provoking.One of the docs visiting me saw it and said his son worked for Apple. And had described to him, Jobs getting on an elevator,arguing with one of the employees in the cab and firing him on the spot..
I repeated that to the guy who gave me the book: a Venture Capitalist/Private Equity player . An important one. His comment:: "What a dickhead"
Message to the pro-Bainies. Don't try to defend the indefensible. The insiders don't..
by Flavius on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 1:03am
So good to have you here, you've been missed.
Hope you are better.
by Aunt Sam on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 1:20am
I don't know about that, Flav. Dijamo seemed to very concerned about it because it was a question he raised, and LULU came running after him.
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 4:13pm
True, but it does speak to his concern for not killing innocent people, which is certainly part of the concern, no?
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 11:50am
The reality is that there is no war where innocents will not be killed and harmed despite anyone's best intentions.
by Aunt Sam on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 11:57am
The fact that he is willing to order the death of people based on profiling says something about the parameters of 'his concern for not killing innocent people' and that certainly is part of my concern, yes.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 12:53pm
That is hilarious. I didn't see in the article him express true concern about the loss of human life and killing civilians. He only concerned about the media/PR impact about killing civilians which reveals how lacking in moral perspective he is. So tada this "concern" about killing innocent people can be alleviated by classifying everyone military age and male as a terrorist and the media asks no questions. Who is this guy? I have no idea, but he's a terrorist because he was there when the bomb dropped. Just your average Nobel Peace Prize winner genuinely "concerned" about killing civilians.
by Anonymous Dijamo (not verified) on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 12:53pm
I'm sorry, then, that you have reading comprehension problems. There is a PR and electoral dimension to it, of course. There would be a PR and electoral dimension to his abandoning the drone program altogether as well.
It should be clear from the other quotes from the same article that I posted that he doesn't sit with a deck of cards and go eenie-meenie. Nor is the targeting an arbitrary classifying process where they just pick a guy and label him a "terrorist" at random at least as far as this article goes.
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 4:10pm
Brilliant "reduce" civilian casualties by declaring all casualties by default terrorists. You expect me to believe someone who displays such grossly immoral judgment on honestly reporting civilian casualty count has true concern about the value of human life? Perhaps it's your own reading comprehension that could use some help.
by Anonymous Dijamo (not verified) on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 4:44pm
Nah. I at least don't expect you to believe anything you don't feel like believing just to vote in November for the candidate who is least likely to:
-invade Syria or Iran
-appoint a Supreme Court Justice who'll be the 5th vote for making abortions illegal again
-keep the top marginal tax rate at 35%
-reduce unemployment comp
-privatize social security
by Flavius on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 1:22am
Presumably we elect Democratic congresspeople to protect Social Security no matter who's president.
Why put all your faith in 1 politician?
Bush tried to privatize Social Security and we beat him back.
It was one of the few times the Democrats organized over those 8 years.
re: Syria, I'd frankly be rooting for a Libyan-style overthrow much more than I was with Libya. But Qaddafi was a familiar freak with a lot of oil, while Assad's just a brutal son of a tyrant.
I asked during our Libyan regime change what international precedent we were setting. Crickets. So here's Assad killing over 10,000 civilians in the course of a year, 100 in one day - any unified NATO/UN action on this one? Fat chance. Just like Sierra Leone went on for months without foreign intervention. No oil? No play.
We invaded Libya because Qaddafi *might* kill civilians, a pre-emptive action that turned us into the decider from the sky, knocking out anything that moved. But in Syria? Diplomacy must run its course, no matter how many civilians killed.
But some leader or other said they were chagrined gosh-darn-it at Assad's behavior, so I guess I should feel mollified. Anyway, whoever's president will attack Syria or Iran when ExxonMobil tells them to, no sooner.
PS - civilian deaths from US drones or overflights don't count. It's the law.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 2:10am
I'm not interested in punishing Obama for the many things you and I wish he hadn't done, I'm interested in electing whoever will do the fewest in the next 4 years..
From between him and Mitt.
So far I haven't read anything convincing me that should be Mitt.
by Flavius on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 6:50am
Obama doesn't care about my vote, especially with all those independent/republican votes he's winning over with his moderate Republican policies. So you can continue to vote for the most moderate Republican between Romney and Obama. I'll focus on rebuilding the party Obama destroyed once his sorry ass is booted from office.
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 9:41am
Except actually, you'll be actively working for, and giving to, the least moderate Republican in the race and helping the rest of the ticket in the bargain.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 11:23am
Who said I was actively giving to or working for Romney? I only said I will be voting for him as the lesser of two evils in my judgment because he's the candidate who will at least face some Democratic opposition when he tries to carry out Republican policies and there will be at least some change of wrestling the carcass of what the Democratic party used to be from Obama and his supporters.
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 11:34am
I'm willing to accept your statement that you want to rebuild the democratic party . Why not ? But to me it follows that it would be vital for that rebuilt party to have a president during the next 4 years who'll replace Justice the soon- to- retire Justice Ginsberg with someone like Justice Kagan rather than someone like Justice Alioto .
What's wrong with my thinking?
by Flavius on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 11:54am
Because Obama's idea of growing the Democratic party is by becoming the Republican party (how many GOP folks can we recruit to run with a (D) after their name and throw the democratic party machine behind)? He's the one who ruined the resurgent Democratic party of 2006 who regained power by standing up to the GOP, standing for change and values and moving the country to the left. There will be no rebuilding of the democratic party under the Obama regime.
Besides, my vote won't matter anyway because the economy is still in the crapper (silly Obnama hating Krugman, the stimulus was perfect and awesome!!1!!!!) he'll lose based on his failed economic policies, failed response to foreclosures etc and the sad thing is the country will think liberal policies failed when it was really Republican policies that failed. That will be his sorry legacy. Time to cancel the Mount Rushmore expansion plans. Not gonna happen.
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:03pm
None of our individual votes are likely to matter if Romney floats into office on a flood of Citizens' United cash.
But hey, you never know. On the off chance we get lucky why wouldn't you hold your nose and vote against the real and present danger of another Sam Alito on the Court.
If you desire a vibrant democratic party at some point in the future you ought to desire a Supreme Court that will let it fuction.
by Flavius on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:29pm
My reading of it was the GOP imploded with a surfeit of corruption. In fact, I was surprised it hung on that long. It should've fallen in 2004. Don't forget, there were quite a few Democratic votes for the two tax cuts and the two wars and even Teddy Kennedy was a proud co-sponsor of NCLB. The first time the Democrats really stood up to Bush was over Social Security. They overreached, and they were loaded down with corruption. Finally, the Democrats just blew them over.
Even so Obama didn't beat the superannuated war monger and daffy running mate by all that much.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 2:47pm
You're making your points, Dijamo, by simply ignoring the other things in the article.
The point of the article, IMO, is the surprising complexity of the decision-making process. He is more aggressive than people thought he'd be, for example, in accepting the accounting method you cite.
But he's also trying to be scrupulous in targeting actual terrorists and reducing the deaths of innocents--a point that is made explicitly in the article that you simply toss aside as if it were nothing.
YOU want to paint him as some immoral, power-drunk maniac swigging whiskey, turning over the next card in the deck and yelling "Kill him!" to any subordinate who happens to be within hearing distance.
And you're using THIS article to prove your point.
Your original question was--does he ever decide NOT to kill someone. Well, the article doesn't answer that question specifically, but it does say that the process of targeting, which presumably he signed off on, rejects a lot of potential targets.
But for you, that is a reason to work and vote for Mitt. Carry on...
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 9:04am
You trust the awesome judiciousness and morality of Obama's decisionmaking with NO information on how those decisions are made, what factual basis, how strong the intelligence is. Fine, you believe so deeply in Obama's moral integrity that you assume if he signs of on a killing it is the right call. I assume you would trust Dick Cheney to use the same judicious judgment? Sarah Palin? Marcus Rubio? Joe Lieberman. These precedents don't just get to stick around when your guys is in power.
The point is there is a reason I don't believe the president should the sole decider whether he is a Democrat or a Republican. It's called principles, consistency, having some core beliefs that are not disregarded just because you heart the President. The Democrats like you who criticized GWB as the imperial president who shredded the Constitution AND ignore the fact that Obama is doing the same damn thing have lost any credibility on the morals/constitution. Hence when GWB signed off on waterboarding it was the right thing to do to stop the terrorirsts from attacking us here (your same justification for Obama's determination he has the right to sign off on the death of American citizens suspected of terrorism).
And so the mainstream Democratic party no longer stands for curtailing executive power, check and balances, civil liberties. It's all about trusting the infallible judgment of your dear Leader... as long as he's a Democrat. It's morally loathsome to me for Democrats to be defending that which they hounded GWB (rightly) for. And I have more respect for the Republicans who actually believe they are doing the right thing (whether it's a Republican president or Democrat) than Democrats who scream like hell when it's a Republican president and look the other way when it's Obama. At least they have core beliefs and are not hypocrtical hacks.
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 9:23am
But what do I know, I'm just a far leftie liberal wingnut. Except the NYT Editorial Board makes a much weaker argument and comes to same conclusion.
www.nytimes.com/2012/05/31/opinion/too-much-power-for-a-president.html?_r=1&hp
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 9:26am
Have to say, this sort of thing reeks of Commumismusm:
"The United States cannot be in a perpetual war on terror that allows lethal force against anyone, anywhere, for any perceived threat."
Whadya mean, "cannot?" Of COURSE it can! It's the new, modern, more EFFICIENT way to run the world!
Nope, these days we just hand the death button over to whatever batshit madman sits in this special office, see - and it's a very very special office - and then, we flash faces up on a big screen, and our special person decides who's been really REALLY bad, and then.... WE KILL 'EM!
And it's all constitutional! And just! And Christian even!
See, we can babble phrases like "Just War," and seemingly even the last few Americans remaining with any sort of attachment to the Constitution or Human Rights, well... they just melt.
It's a JUST War. And our special person has SUCH nice eyes.
Bye bye bad guys!
by Qnonymous (not verified) on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 10:25am
EmptyWheel posts a story where at first Obama/the Us didn't want to wipe out a Pakistani that Pakistan didn't like, but suddenly magically some dirty bomb evidence appeared, and kablooey. The good thing is we kept our good relations with Pakistan so the drone program can continue - one little pesky unconfirmed enemy is worth that much, no?
Of course Brennan - Obama's go-to guy on drones - has been asserting along there hasn't been 1 collateral civilian death from drones. But I'm assuming the White House confessions on Obama's naught-or-nice list are more accurate, right?
Now there was a step-up in drone attacks in Pakistan when talks fell through on protecting passes to Afghanistan. But we wouldn't do any spiteful targeting of Americans just because in a foul mood - we only do that for foreigners.
All that great DoD/NSA/CIA data, and we have State Department officials running around thinking you can hose off radioactive evidence. Brilliant, send in another drone or full scale attack - Iran's building nukes! Or something!
Then there's Bradley Manning & Julian Assange - both are enemies of the state, no? Shouldn't Obama be able to off them? Who cares he's avoiding extradition in the UK rather than Yemen - sting him. Of course that would prevent them from showing evidence of our soldiers & contractors targeting civilians, but in war, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.
The Times article doesn't mention us blasting away Awalki's 16-year-old son, but as in the case of Trayvon, we know - as George Zimmerman explained - that those kids can just be up to no good - "the Obama administration now considers “all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants,” on the ground that such individuals “are probably up to no good.” Memo to Afghanistan: "don't stand around in groups while having dark skin and wearing hoodies or Pakul hats - we'll put a drone up your ass." Or for Awalki - the apple don't fall far from the tree, better to get him now before he forms bad habits.
I'm just thinking of Tricky Dick Nixon getting the right to do targeted assassinations and a remote control drone joystick of his own - that's just too beautiful to contemplate.
We spent 1 1/2 years building up intelligence on Iraq to justify going to war, and we still got it ass-backwards. But people think a memo to Obama will be clear enough for him to apply a 100% accurate death sentence based on purely objective criteria.
Of course some people still believe in Santa Claus too.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 10:25am
I especially liked the part where we don't even have to know their names.
I mean, we have intelligence that runs soooooooo deeeeeeeep that we.... don't even know their names.
And a Republican is going to inherit this machine.
Holy McFuck.
by Qnonymous (not verified) on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 10:29am
And some of us, D--o, are working to make that happen.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 10:35am
A republican already has the machine, but he has a (D) after his name so you don't care.
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 10:52am
Nor do you, apparently.
Moreover, you don't care about a whole host of other issues.
At least, if you control the charge of hypocrisy, you have some lever to move the hypocrite (as you did a bit with me).
But when you actively support the true believer, you have no argument against him. Nor do you have an leverage.
In fact, the true believer can turn around and say, "What are you bugging me for? You knew what I stood for on a whole host of issues and you supported me with your time and money."
Who's the hypocrite then? Who has no one but himself to blame?
But as far as supporting folks with Ds next to their name, here is why I do it: We've moved into a de facto parliamentary system, but without any of its advantages. The GOP moves as a bloc. You need an opposing bloc to stop it or slow it down.
"Voting for the person" maybe made sense back when the opposition was "reasonable" or allowed for dissenting for voices. By and large, this is no longer true. In particular, certain key decisions, such as SCOTUS nominations, are in the balance, despite what Obey, through much tortured reasoning, wants to say.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 11:13am
I don't believe in supporting a President that only invites people to the table with my belief set in election years, and once elected proceeds to bash the professional left, disregard them, not let them have a seat at the table on critical issues like healthcare reform, foreclosure response. Had the mainstream democratic party demanded the right of progressives to be at the table and stood up to the President, I might feel some obligation as part of a coalition to support the lesser of two evils candidate because he's our guy. But no, we were told to shut up, standard democratic principles were derided as out of the mainstream or far lefty liberal. And now, in an election year I'm supposed to suck it up and support him because he's our guy? (And then after he's elected and continues to act like the Republican he is I'll be told to shut up, I knew what I was voting for).
It was you guys who pushed progressives out of the tent, so arguments about coalitions and de facto parliamentary systems in election years are, to be perfectly frank, bullshit. He's not our guy. He's YOUR guy, so YOU get to work rounding up all those indie/republican votes he garnered with his shitty Republican policies. Don't blame me for his (and your) failures.
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 11:30am
And don't blame me for all the shitty policies YOUR guy, Romney, puts into place with the help of YOUR party, the Republicans, whose ascension you are helping. Directly. Hey, maybe you'll help give them 8 years. Who knows?
See Dijamo? This works both ways.
(And WTF happened to your CFTO scruples? I guess they melt away under the mildest of questioning.)
Seems to me "true progressives" have a lot of soul searching to do. Oh, not the kind where you wonder how you ever supported a Quisling like Obama or Hillary.
I'm talking about that looooong desert of loss after loss where "true progressives" just seemed unable to convince the American people--forget about labels for the moment-- to support your ideas. Sure, you've got polls, but they don't seem to materialize at the polls. You also have a basket-full of excuses about how you were kept out, shut out, shut up, ignored by the press and on and on.
Ultimately, these "conversations" tend to end up in one place: With you or Quinn or somebody telling people "like me" how bad and immoral and stupid we are. (Even when I tell you that you have convinced me on point X.)
So right off the bat, your first act at "rebuilding the Democratic Party" is to narrow your base of support. And your second act will be to support a candidate who in NO WAY supports your views. Seems like you're already going backwards. But as Quinn might say, I'm just a clueless moron with no moral compass--so what do I know?
When "true progressives" talk about going back to "true Democratic principles," I often wonder how far back they mean.
Generally, FDR is a safe landing spot. Unfortunately, that leaves out 60-70 years of history: Adlai Stevenson (loser), LBJ (war monger and self-defenestrater), Hubert Humphrey (war monger hand-maiden and also loser), McGovern (loser), Jimmy Carter (loser), Walter Mondale (loser), Dukakis (loser)...until we finally come to Clinton (Quinn's man) whose big accomplishment was to end big government, reform welfare, and balance the budget. Oh, and deregulation and welcoming big corporate, Wall Street money into the Democratic Party, not to mention the bowels of the WH.
Sound a little bit Republican to you?
Then "true progressives" went back to losing with Dean and Gore...until we come to Obama who did get health care (a base hit) and FinReg (another base hit). But because you strongly disagree with him on some important issues, you're hoping he loses, too, and you're going to vote for the Republican and help that party because at least he believes in the shitty policies you say you abhor.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:31pm
Gore won the election - he just didn't win the counting fight.
If you include illegally disqualified voters, Florida wouldn't have been even close.
Similar in 2004 - Dean wasn't the candidate, Kerry was - and he lost by only 2.4% of the vote - and likely the Ohio vote was stolen with rigged machines and other irregularities, enough electoral votes to give the election to Kerry. (see more on stolen elections). Oh, and here.
But blame it on progressives for losing 2 elections +.1% and -2.4% under crass irregularities. Your heart's in the right place.
BTW, a good chance that if Robert Kennedy (erstwhile liberal) hadn't been shot, he would have won the nomination and the election. But easy to kick a liberal when he's dead, or any other time for that matter.
Also, LBJ did win in 1964, though obviously on the coattails of a fallen president. Oops - you left out JFK as well. Fine editing there, dude. You must be trying to make a point. You do realize Carter won in 1976, right? Made all the papers at the time.
For Clinton, you forgot about cutting black poverty by 2/3 and implementing an integrated administration in both top level exec and ordinary positions and passing SCHIP. Guess those don't fit the script. Oh, he also fought a war that wasn't about oil, but was only about rescuing a threatened minority - that's a first. And last.
So lesson learned is we must all shift far to the right to be electable, and tell those hippies to stop complaining because they're losers.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 12:57pm
God, he's gonna throw a rod when you tell him about FDR.
Still, History is a critical subject. Best they learn now.
by Qbert (not verified) on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 1:31pm
My point was...which Democratic/progressive principles do you want to go back to? Have we convinced a large percentage of the American people they are right? I think the record is sketchy, and you're resorting to a whole lotta woulda, coulda, shouldas.
(Plus, you're stuck in this poor, poor pitiful punch a progressive round-about.)
To that end...
Gore should have been a shoo-in coming off the good times of the 1990s. The fact that it was close was a failure. Especially if Clinton-Gore had managed to convince large numbers of people of the rightness of progressive ideas.
Dean was the progressive candidate that year and he crumbled.
Kerry was much more of the compromised, compromising candidate you now decry as a sell-out. All that rot you talk about when you have your cynical hat on. Given Bush's failures at that point, the election shouldn't have been that close.
RFK is a counter-factual. We can argue about that all day if you want. Your argument is weak if you have to go there.
Leaving out JFK was a mistake on my part. Ooops, you must be playing gotcha. It's a bit hard to judge JFK on this. Like Obama, he inspired great hope--but also like Obama he was a bit cautious and inclined to use military power. So was Lyndon.
Judged by today's progressives--heck, judged by progressives back then--LBJ was a war monger. All that Great Society stuff didn't matter to left in the face of Vietnam. They wanted him out. They wanted HHH out, despite his liberal credentials. Kind of like they want Obama out.
But using my counter-factual backwards running time machine, I'm pretty certain both JFK and LBJ would have used drones. After all, what really turned Americans against the war were American casualties. They also had their eyes firmly fixed on all that political PR stuff you dislike.
Carter wasn't particularly progressive if you look at what he did, but his loss demonstrates how losing the second term hurts the brand (that you think doesn't exist) in the public's eye.
I don't forget about the good things Clinton did. I accept that my guy is going to do good and bad things. It is YOU and Dijamo who dismiss the good things Obama has done and would therefore deny him a second term (and what that might bring) because he is no better than his opposition (apparently), maybe worse.
I accept the complexity that is the point of the article above.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 1:42pm
We have guys holed up in Gitmo that we don't even know why they're there. Someone brought 'em to us, told us they're the worst of the worst, and collected their $50 Afghani. Now no need for transfer fees - we just target with drones - much more efficient, much less waiting.
As Obama said, America's getting stronger.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 10:44am
We have intelligence that runs so deep we kill a 16 year old American kid and claim he was 21. I mean even the AG of Arizona has better intelligence than Obama; at least he can wrangle up a birth certificate.
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 11:06am
Oh Marcy and Greenwald are so shrill (when they criticize Obama, but they were brilliant when they went after GWB for the exact same thing). Ipso facto I can disregard any arguments they may make. They just hate Obama. They don't know how just and moral he is, how he personally weighs the evidence and then hands down his judgments from on high. He won't share how he makes the decisions, but I know in my heart they must be right because he made them. And anyone who disputes how right and just this is is just some loony far out lefty liberal.
Good God. What a fucking joke Obama has turned the democratic party into.
by Dijamo * (not verified) on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 11:03am
I disagree with your last sentence - he just exposed & took advantage of the rot. All the flaws have been there for quite some time (kinda how Bush got elected in the first place). I was amazed all 2007-8 about people thinking his speeches were so great, but I guess he just has the right pixie dust for the occasion.
If only his politics were on the left or he gave a shit, we'd make do.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 11:13am
Okay, you convinced me.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 10:33am
And then there's this, which certainly suggests that "some" targets were taken off the list. Moreover, there's nothing here that suggests he approves/rubber stamps every target...
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 11:54am
And then there's this...
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 05/30/2012 - 12:02pm
by jollyroger on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 2:30pm