MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
I see all these opinion pieces about how Hugo Chavez's departure could provide an opening for a thaw in U.S.-Venezuelan relations. Then I read this:
The United States was represented by Rep. Gregory Meeks, a New York Democrat, and former Rep. William Delahunt, a Democrat from Massachusetts.
Way to go, Secretary Kerry. Thirty heads of state or their deputies, including those from most of Latin America, attend Chavez's funeral. The United States -- the biggest importer of Venezuelan oil -- snubs the country's popular, long-time, democratically elected leader. Because he was a critic of American foreign policy and hung around with people the U.S. dislikes. Are you 15? Is this high school?
Even Canada, which slavishly parrots American policy toward Venezuela, managed to send a former prime minister. At a minimum, the U.S. has a former secretary of state, sitting around doing nothing, whom it could have sent. You know, in recognition of an important trade partner you're hoping for warmer relations with. Thank God Jesse Jackson and Sean Penn stepped up to fill in.
But no, there are domestic politics to contend with. So you'll pull the same blunder at Fidel Castro's funeral, and Raoul's, and keep wondering why your diplomatic charm offensives fall flat. It's because you are arrogant, ignorant hegemons, incapable of ever learning anything about how and why others see you.
That felt good.
Comments
From the link:
..30 political leaders including Cuba’s Raul Castro and Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stood at attention before Chavez’s flag-draped coffin, and the guest list in large part reflected Chavez’s foreign policy of strident criticism of the U.S. and friendships with nations at odds with Washington....Ahmadinejad won one of the biggest rounds of applause of leaders entering the funeral. “It is a great pain for us because we have lost a friend,” Ahmadinejad said...
From France24.com: European Union nations were sending lower-ranking officials, while the United States was not expected to be represented by senior officials. link
OK he missed the big round of applause for Ahmadinejad. Sounds like Kerry missed a 30+ pt. blowout, not a slam dunk. And I thought you were one of the more clear-headed around here.
by NCD on Fri, 03/08/2013 - 11:54pm
he missed the big round of applause for Ahmadinejad
One word:chickenshit. News flash: El Caballito is dead--he can't hurt *Kerry. Nor can the President of Iran, Ecuador, etc. etc. What's the expression, "we are bigger than that"?...not.
*Of course,Kerry is a renowned punk...by jollyroger on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 4:24am
Straightdope.com, not chickenshit.com?
Motherjones on Chavez, If Only He Ruled as Well as He Campaigned:
Chávez inherited a dysfunctional judicial system and more or less regional (that is to say: bad) crime rates. He leaves an anarchic judicial system and horrendous crime rates. He neglected, bungled, and politicized policing, the courts and the jails. Plus he gave a coded "It's okay to steal if you're poor" message. As crime exploded and threatened to cost him, electorally, he tried to row back. Police shot dead more than 500 people per year. One justice minister said dead gang members shouldn't really be counted in murder rates because they were criminals. This echoes some trends elsewhere in Latin America. The difference is that Venezuela had oil revenues to do a better job, and at times progressive, encouraging rhetoric. But the results were disastrous.
by NCD on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 3:37pm
Excellent link, thank you. Rory Carroll doesn't just have a good bead on Chavez but he's obviously very skillful at eloquent, succinct but nuanced characterization. Probably helps to have good questions, and to be able to email rather than speak answers. but still....not everyone who has written a book on a major figure can manage to characterize them so well in short form. And Chavez was definitely a complex character....
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 8:53pm
"If Only He Ruled as Well as He Campaigned" - trying to think of a pol that one couldn't say that about. Maybe George Washington.
by Donal on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 10:11pm
Washington didn't 'campaign', he did 'rule', so you could say he ruled better than he campaigned. He was unanimously elected by electors, who were chosen by state legislators. There was no popular vote for President taken in 1789.
Offhand I would also add, as better rulers than campaigners, James Polk and Thomas Jefferson for his first term, and Nixon, who lost one campaign in 1960, resigned after another, but initiated the EPA. Clean Air Act, OSHA, NEPA opened our relations with China, initiated cooperation with the Soviets in the space program, ended the Vietnam War and other policies, all of which led to the right wing hating his guts.
by NCD on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 10:45pm
It isn't especially unreasonable to decline to attend the funerals of your enemies.
by Aaron Carine (not verified) on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 7:56am
Hey, you could gloat...
by jollyroger on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 3:21pm
Um, I believe the case may have been that the US State Dept was not exactly welcome to attend (to understate a bit):
This happened just hours before Chavez' death and therefore coverage of the story was overshadowed and US response muted as well....
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 8:57am
And furthermore, I just re-read the following article more carefully than I initially did and it is quite interesting in context of all of this, suggests strongly that all may not be what it appears as presented for Venezuelan public consumption. I am thinking the US State Dept is probably wisely maintaining appearances as might please Maduro for now. And no surprise that Rep. Delahunt happens to be one of the attendees, he is mentioned here, and I would not be surprised if his attendance was calculated to "take advantage" while not ruining Maduro's anti-U.S. kabuki theatre for him unnecessarily, like they also did sometimes with Chavez, until they really know what is going on:
On the other hand, Maduro might have gotten really pissed off about that last meeting with the US, and the spying diplomat and "the US poisoned him" stuff could have been genuine and not just kabuki for Venezuelan public consumption.
But that Maduro speech happened so close upon Chavez' death that it's a very sensitive situation with lots of unknowns. To not force these issues with a nation in mourning and send Delahunt but no one higher seems quite appropriate to the situation to me.
by artappraiser on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 10:07am
I believe that this new news is also actually correctly following diplomatic protocol:
along the lines that international diplomacy was invented to play symbolic games rather than do things like immediately go to war....where you maintain an illusion of doing certain things to assuage public emotions in order to actually talk and negotiate and trade and get practical things done behind closed doors.
Once again, I would argue that the US State Department was not invited to the funeral and was not wanted there. That to send someone of high status from State to represent the U.S. would ruin Maduro's narrative for the Venezuelan public at a very inconvenient time for him; that it would be an offense, not an open hand. Especially given his choice of expelling two American representatives while he knew Chavez was on his deathbed. Rather, it seems exquisitely correct diplomatically for US State to wait a few days after Chavez's death to do the "tit for tat."
by artappraiser on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 1:17pm
'Rather, it seems exquisitely correct diplomatically for US State to wait a few days after Chavez's death to do the "tit for tat."'
Don't we have the option of doing nothing? Wouldn't we prefer to improve relations with his successor, than get involved in a grade-school spitting contest?
Since the US is kinda #1, what countries do with us is often to save face. Now if expelling their diplomats plays up their importance, fine. But fanning flames to fan flames when we should be wooing them sounds counter-productive. (often funerals are opportunities to break impasses)
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 1:32pm
Sorry Ack,
As an American citizen, I am entirely satisfied that my government sent one retired congressman and one sitting congressman to represent the United States of America at the funeral of Chavez. It was appropriate, and I am glad that the United States acted appropriately under the circumstances. That my country imports oil from lots of nasty regimes is a beside the point to me.
And as a Jew, and I am a Jew in case you didn't know :), it breaks my heart that the proud Jewish community in Venezuela has decreased by more than one-half in Venezuela, where Chavez used Jews as scapegoats in the same manner as a long line of popular despots. During the Gazan War these citizens of Venezuela were challenged to express their opposition to Israel in public as a way of confirming their loyalty to state (sounds like some of the folks on the fake left around these parts with respect to the loyalty of Jews in their own nation-states). And now there are fewer than 8,000 Jews in Caracas, and many have found their way to Israel. And so I guess Chavez was just another Zionist. I guess I'm particularly afraid that his successor will be even nastier to the remaining Jews because, as you know, Jew-hatred is often a substitute for charisma when you don't have the latter. One thing Chavez had was charisma. So perhaps I'll miss him as a charismatic zionist.
Ack, I've been thinking alot about this Chavez thing this week, as I've watched the postures manifesting themselves across the ideological divide so predictably. But how does it work for a mook like me? If you're a citizen of the world and you come from a People consisting of not too many visibly hungry folks are you supposed to ignore that your People are being mistreated when a guy like Chavez dies--so long as he was a guy like Chavez? Seriously Ack, this stuff really bugs me. Am I supposed to ignore the state of my People in Venezuela, which is just like the state of my People in so many places, and which is more of an explanation for the existence of the State of Israel than anything else, when my People are being mistreated and othered under the tutelage of Mr. Chavez? Am I disqualified from consideration of things worldly by such thinking? If so, I'm cool, but it is an ongoing thing in my head.
by Bruce Levine on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 11:58am
And I do believe that there's a difference between diplomatic protocol and the funeral and U.S. relations with Venezuela going forward. I believe that the American response was consistent with diplomatic protocol under the circumstances, and that is because there was an official American delegation.
And I agree with you that US relations with Venezuela and the rest of Central and South America are broken in too many respects and I understand that that is a problem. I wouldn't start it with a disingenuous gesture to Chavez now that he is dead. There are far better and far more sincere ways for the US to show respect to Venezuela and, more importantly, to show respect to the ordinary citizen of Venezuela (many of whom loved Chavez with all their hearts and for bona fide and material reasons).
by Bruce Levine on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 3:56pm
If 20 thousand Jews live in Venezuela and 10 thousand of them, about half the total Jewish population there, decide to leave during the time that Chavez is in power, it seems a very important subject to explore as to why. It could possibly be for very nasty reasons that cannot possibly be condoned by enlightened society.
You quote from an article to suggest that that exodus was because Chavez was scaring the hell out of those Jews. One scary thing you say is that Jews were challenged to provide a public expression of their opposition to Israel as a form of loyalty oath to Venezuela. So, in the interest of learning more about that, could you provide a link? I didn't find anything referring to it in my google search. I am wondering if those Venezuelan Jews were asked if they were against Israeli policies that were against Venezuelan policies or were they pressured to say that they were against Israel itself in some more sinister way.
I also wonder though if the primary fear causing Jews to leave Venezuela was simply that of being a Jew. Since I doubt it, I will cherry-pick a quote or two from an article I recently read which suggests other reasons.
"Jews were not the only ones to take flight from the Chavez regime. Hundreds of thousands of upper- and middle-class Venezuelans left during the Chavez years, seeking to escape Venezuela’s anti-business climate, the government’s nationalization of private companies, economic crises and a soaring crime rate. Jews left for many of the same reasons, with anti-Semitism by all accounts taking a back seat to concerns for economic and physical security."
There was/is an actual revolution going on in Venezuela end Chavez was attempting to export it and support it in other countries and obviously he was revolting against powerful interests. Chavez was winning in Venezuela and his victory would mean less for the affluent and more for the common peasant. One hell of a lot of affluent people decided to take their money and run. Hundreds of thousands of non-Jews who obviously were not being made uncomfortable by any anti-Jewish sentiment or action but were afraid of going broke, along with other reasons, made that same decision according to my cherry-picked quote. That makes me suspect that most of the half of the Jewish population that did leave did so for the very same reasons, those reasons being to consolidate and protect what wealth they had accumulated and to live in a less volatile place. I am not degrading that as a motive.
You can probably help me on the next point and if my speculation is wrong it would cut into my reasoning.
Half of the Jews living in Venezuela stayed there during the exodus of the other half. Why? Did they naively fail to see a threat? Or, did they feel threatened but lack the means to leave? Or, did they not actually feel a threat to life, liberty, or for wealth they hadn't didn't have? If it happened they were poor and scared and wanted out, were they abandoned by their prosperous kin to deal with it on their own? Wouldn't a qualified right-of-return Jew living in a place where he faced persecution have ample help available to get himself and his or her family to Israel?
The following quote is cherry-picked from the same article as my quote above:
But Chavez, a larger-than-life figure who dominated Venezuelan politics, was no Hitler. Venezuelan Jews were free to come and go as they pleased, and even many of those who emigrated returned frequently to visit ---
I won't bother to post a link to the article I quoted from, it is the same one you linked to in your comment.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 11:35pm
Would "your people" rather be Jews in Chavez' Venezuela or Palestinians in Netanyahu's occupied West Bank/Israel?
Considering the stream of hateful statements from Israel's newspapers and government every day, along with razing of buildings, humiliating checkpoints, yadda, yadda...
Let's look at the "Kristalnacht of Venezuela", as some called it (including US Congresspeople & Israeli papers". "Up to 15 people" the Tiferet Synagogue, throwing down Torahs, even stomping some, painting anti-semitic graffiti, holding the guard at gunpoint (he was found alive on the floor the next morning, presumably unbeaten). 11 of the 15 were arrested within 2 days.
Wow. Just wow. If I co-opted the word "Holocaust" for something as petty, no one killed or even hurt, 1 building ransacked but not destroyed, people would have my hide.
Kristallnacht - in case you've forgotten - 1000 synagogues burned across Germany & Austria, 7000 Jewish business destroyed, 91 Jews killed, 30,000 put in camps.
Either the people describing Terafet as "Kristallnacht" are pussies, or deliberately using a horrid Nazi-era atrocity to score modern political points. Neither option is pretty.
That doesn't mean Chavez didn't use anti-semitism in his speeches (like the recently elected Czech president used xenophobic slurs & anti-Sudeten German fears to defeat the candidate who fled to Austria under the Communists). It doesn't mean there wasn't a rise in anti-Semitic scapegoating and taunting, though that doesn't equal 1930's levels, and not all can be attributed to Chavez.
And people can be rightfully afraid with heated hateful rhetoric, even if not rising to hyperbolic levels. We err on the side of caution. Post-1995, Rwandan Tutsis will likely overreact to any threatening statement on radio. But that doesn't mean every radio statement is a significant threat either.
But even the Jerusalem Post describes the exodus of 20,000 Jews from Caracas as "largely economically motivated". I imagine Detroit lost a lot more than 20,000 blacks from the 2008-9 meltdown. Do we treat that as inherent racism, or partly structural with the revamping of the auto industry?
Indigenous peoples did better under Chavez than before. Jews may have done a bit worse. The country became less divergent economically during this time, while in the US the haves of 1% made out great, while the other 99% stayed stagnant or declined greatly.
That Chavez sympathized more with underdog Palestinians is none too surprising. After the failed US-backed coup, it's not too surprising he taunted the US with anything the US didn't like. It's unfortunate where Jews got caught up in this international posturing. And it's unfortunate when 3rd world countries get caught up in our political posturing.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Mon, 03/11/2013 - 11:31am
My heavens PP, I absolutely cannot believe that what I wrote bothered you so much that you wind up sugarcoating what's happened to Jews in Venezuela. And what's with the "compare the Palestinians to the Jews of Venezuela". Why? Are we not talking about the Jews of Venezuela, i.e. the Jewish citizens of Venezuela?
And the fact that more than 50 percent of Venezuela's Jewish citizens may have left ultimately because of economic reasons begs the question, to wit, whether more than one half of the middle class and wealthy Venezuelan non-Jews have also left the country in the same time period. I doubt it. And are we all to assume that every Jew in Venezuela is financially able to pick up and leave? We don't even consider that consideration anymore. But even if we assume that every Jew has the financial ability to leave, this notion that it's easy for a Jew in Venezuela to pick up and leave and move to another part of the world without consideration of economics is just shocking. What you do is betray a complete disregard for the fact that the families of the Jews we are talking about are likely to have been living in Venezuela for centuries.
People stay when things are bad, because people generally, and usually correctly, roll the dice and assume that things won't get worse. Jews too, just like regular people, make these assumptions when they're living where their ancestors are buried and where the kids go to school, and where their favorite soccer team is playing. Heck, you mentioned Kristalnacht (not I). Heck, lots of Jews stuck around in Germany and Austria after Kristalnacht took place as well.
So what I see is that in your zest to love Chavez ( whom I agree did some wonderrful things for his People) you seem to be suggesting that I should ignore that under Chavez' reign, Jewish citizens of Venezuela were challenged by their government to openly condemn the Israeli invasion of Gaza in 2008. Under Chavez, synagogues were broken into and Jewish organizations are spied on. Under Chavez, his election campaign even used the Jewish card against his opponent (whose grandparents on one side may have been full or par Jewish), and they said that he was part of the international zionist conspiracy.
Whatever.
by Bruce Levine on Mon, 03/11/2013 - 7:14pm
There's a lot of suffering in Latin America. I'm not going to narrow down my focus to 1 ethnic group at the expense of all others, especially if we're talking economic suffering with an outlet of emigration, vs. say mass killing of hundreds of thousands in Guatemala or the abuse of natives in Venezuela's Orinoco basin, or Chiquita's convenient use of Colombian death squads to help its labor negotiations, or FARC's killings & destruction in Colombia - sometimes with Chavez's support - or the mass displacement of Mayans in Mexico, or the 3 million Central American immigrants living in the US. Sugar coat that.
I get it, you're a Jew, so the suffering of 1 Jew weighs more than the rest of the universe combined. To me, 11,000 emigrating Jews as part of 29 million suffering Latinos is just part of the equation. Forgive my lack of bias and selective outrage.
"And are we all to assume that every Jew in Venezuela is financially able to pick up and leave? We don't even consider that consideration anymore." Of course we consider that, and obviously a great number did leave. Of course they've left from Colombia, Peru, Argentina and even Paris as well - seems like Miami is becoming a favored destination:
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/12/07/State/Instead_of_Israel__Je.shtml
But my, can you read the fine-print: in Argentina, police wouldn't investigate an Argentinian bombing in which 80 Jews died. In Venezuela, they arrested 11 of the 15 people who
destroyedvandalized the temple - 8 of whom were police officers!!! Can you imagine the New York police force crossing the thin blue line so easily?There was also great outrage about the police search of a Jewish school:
http://rslissak.com/content/venezuela-another-jewish-exodos-carla-candia
but it took place at 7am, before students were there, done within 2 hours - I understand it could have left distrust in the Jewish community, but hardly a huge life-threatening assault.
I knew a Vietnamese high school kid who'd spent a year with his father walking across Cambodia in secret to escape the Vietnamese Communists, to come to America and live a normal life. Do you have 1 single story of significant Jewish discomfort in Venezuela, 1 single story of disruption & suffering in their emigration? Or you want to drive this all on speculation - yeah, I'm sure it was difficult finding the kids new schools in Miami. But there's a plane leaving every 3 hours from Caracas to Miami - this isn't exodus on a cargo boat adrift in the Mediterranean. And presumably since GDP rose significantly for most Venezuelans, that most Jews who did leave for economic reasons were much better off than the average, so the transition to the US wouldn't be so painful. Just a hunch.
"So what I see is that in your zest to love Chavez ( whom I agree did some wonderrful things for his People) you seem to be suggesting that I should ignore that under Chavez' reign, Jewish citizens of Venezuela were challenged by their government to openly condemn the Israeli invasion of Gaza in 2008"
Oh my, Chavez, put under US sanctions, a failed US-backed coup to overthrow him, and he asks Jewish Venezuelans to "be fair" about analyzing the situation in Gaza 2008. "Be fair", Bruce - that's like noting the suffering of millions of others when you're getting heart-broken about your own tribe. Are you telling me Jewish Venezuelans didn't have an opinion on Israel, that they were completely focused on secular events and life inside Venezuela? That I even care to debate you about a socialist supporting the civilian underdogs in a military confrontation?
"Heck, you mentioned Kristalnacht (not I). Heck, lots of Jews stuck around in Germany and Austria after Kristalnacht took place as well." Don't be a schmuck. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz mentioned it in Congress, even a failed Congressional resolution on Latin American anti-Semitism by Alcee Hastings, as did numerous Israeli & US & international papers as a sign of how terrible Chavez was towards Jews. Google it, and that's what you find. Yeah, just like Jews who had to stick around Germany after Kristallnacht, I stuck around my home town even after I didn't make 1st string quarterback. Feel offended yet?
"What you do is betray a complete disregard for the fact that the families of the Jews we are talking about are likely to have been living in Venezuela for centuries." completely disregard a likely event. Can't you Google or use Wikipedia if you're going to imply a salacious point? The Jewish community didn't get set up until 1824, and even then: "By 1917, the number of Jewish citizens rose to 475, and to 882 in 1926. In the 1920s and 1930s, the Jewish community began to develop with the arrival of North African and eastern European Jews."
The Jewish population was only 882 in 1926, and 22,000 in 1999 when Chavez got in - Venezuela has 29 million people. We're discussing 0.075% of the population, and you can't even tell me anyone who was killed or beaten up or whose business was destroyed, just 3 synagogue vandalisms over 13 years where arrests were made - that Chavez condemned - that look like this:
Not to completely dismiss it, but I've literally seen worse House Parties the day after. It should be local news, a police matter, it shouldn't be an international sensation taking up time in the US Congress. Congress didn't even blink when 200 Iraqis were trampled to death and drowned during a bomb scare on a bridge.
[After writing this, I came across this link: https://nacla.org/node/6106 which notes that the "vandalism" was actually an inside job robbery, the fence cut from the inside, with a bit of destruction to throw off police, which didn't stop international papers from blaming this on the government of Venezuela and Chavez himself. The writer also notes that it was traditional under Reagan to overblow the anti-Semitism of the Sandanistas as part of our continual media & underground war against Nicaragua]
Yes, Chavez used anti-Semitism in his election campaign - I disagree with it, just as I disagreed with the Czech use of anti-Sudeten rhetoric in the last election, Reagan's rhetoric blaming poor blacks for poverty, Putin's campaign built on the back of anti-Chechnyan sentiment, the Republicans anti-Hispanic and anti-Muslim tone, Swift Boating John Kerry, and so on. It was a cheap and tawdry, but common election trick.
However, elsewhere Chavez affirms how much Jews have suffered & been discriminated against, much more than Muslims. How do you reconcile a guy with such contradictory behavior? Lessee, a bit of an ass, a huge amount of Chattie Kathy (whips off a 3 hour speech at the drop of a hat?), and a populist socialist surviving in Latin America while dealing with the normal troubled economy there plus the usual major pressure from the gringos up north such as coup-d'états and embargos.
[if the police hadn't arrested so many of the vandals without this info coming out, I might have surmised that the last synagogue attack could have even been a typical CIA dirty trick to whip up anti-Chavez sentiment - no deaths, a token amount of damage, a media frenzy]
The basic issue for me is he greatly reduced poverty in a greatly impoverished region, and he had no significant human rights violation (ok, would need to understand FARC support better). That's not "in your zest to love Chavez ( whom I agree did some wonderrful things for his People)" - that's simply taking account of the facts. I dislike Castro even though he improved health care & even though I disagree with our embargo - Castro's abused his people and restricted life and free speech.
To summarize Chavez's performance for all 29 million citizens - the good and the bad (including survival during the world 2008-9 meltdown, and in light of Brazil's fall from economic wunderkind lately):
• Unemployment has dropped from 14.5% of the total labour force in 1999 to 7.6% in 2009
• Population has increased from 23,867,000 in 1999 to 29,278,000 in 2011. The annual population growth was 1.5% in 2011 compared with 1.9% in 1999
• GDP per capita has risen from $4,105 to $10,801 in 2011
• As you can see in the graphic chart, Venezuela's inflation has fluctuated since 1999. Inflation now stands at 31.6% compared with 23.6% in 1999
• Venezuela has a complicated history concerning currency exchange rates. Compared with 1999 when the exchange rate was under one bolivar to the US dollar, the latest figures from Reuters place it at 4.3 Bolivars to one dollar
• Poverty has decreased - in 1999, 23.4% of the population were recorded as being in extreme poverty, this fell to 8.5% in 2011 according to official government figures
• Infant mortality is now lower than in 1999 - from a rate of 20 per 1,000 live births then to a rate of 13 per 1,000 live births in 2011
• Violence has been a key concern in Venezuela for some time - figures from the UNODC state that the murder rate has risen since 1999. In 2011 the intentional homicide rate per 100,000 population was 45.1 compared with 25.0 just twelve years earlier
• Oil exports have boomed - Venezuela has one of the top proven oil reserves in the world and in 2011 Opec put the country's net oil export revenues at $60bn. In 1999 it stood at $14.4bn
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 5:24am
I'm sorry PP, I understand economic development, I understand the merits of socialism, and believe it or not I spend most of my time in the real world not talking about Jews and instead seeing and feeling and fighting the excesses and evils of capitalism every friggin' day. I talk to people whose jobs are being lost forever in teeny towns in Michigan and Indiana and New York in the ordinary course and I fight to keep them working. That's what I do, and as I've written in the past, most of the folks I serve as counsel ain't Jewish.
And I also know suffering in Latin America, and my son is down there now and has been for over the last year and is trying to bridge gaps and make lives better. I also raise kids with consciences when I'm not writing about Jews.
And, yes, I also understand that Hugo Chavez did improve the lives of many Venezuelans.
But what you suggest is extraordinary and unacceptable and it is the crux of what dogs me and what I end up writing about much too often. What you are suggesting is that this Jew close his eyes to the suffering of Jews in Venezuela, and I won't do it. I understand that it might be a distraction for you, I understand it might rain on the Chavez' memorial parade, and I really understand ultimately that you would like to push the treatment of Jews under the rug. I get it PP. I don't buy it PP, even if my little protestations end up devaluing the Chavez t-shirts that all the groovy capitalists will be manufacturing, selling, and wearing soon enough.
But I don't understand, as you posit, that by focusing on the plight of Jews in Venezuela that I am in any way ignoring the plight of so many of our brothers and sisters in Latin America. I love charismatic leaders who focus on the poor. Heck, I'd vote for Jesus if he were around and running in a second. But what I like even better are charismatic leaders who focus on the poor and who don't exploit Jew hatred at the same time. And you have a problem with that, I gather?
P.S. What happened in Argentina is also criminal, and it breaks my heart. Argentina is where my son learned to speak Spanish with fluency and Buenos Aires is where my grandmother's brother first came from Europe. 80 plus Argentine Jews were killed in a bombing and Iran is suspected--by Argentina--of being behind it. And nowArgentina will no longer investigate and prosecute based on an agreement with Iran. The 80 Argentines are citizens of that country, but they're also Jewish, and therefore their lives are cheap, no? And, of course, there's irony. One of the Argentine cabinet members is the son of the late journalist Jacobo Timmerman, who found exile and safety as a Jew in Israel because his life was in danger for what he was writing. Now his son is in the government and he tells the Israeli Ambassador that, essentially, the treaty on this between Iran and Argentina was not Israel's business. And, of course, the ambassador reminded the Jr. Timmerman that Israel had also taken in his Jewish father when he needed refuge.
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 8:00am
By the way PP, what happened to the seven police officers who were arrested for vandalizing a Jewish House of Worship, which you dismiss by suggesting that you have seen messier rooms after a a House Party. OK, we're into the whole it's OK to make fun of things religious 'cause we're groovy, I get it but don't buy into it.
Here's my take. Venezuela was embarrassed to no fucking end by authorizing the ramschackling of a Jewish House of Worship, where apparently you think it's no big deal to break shit and soil objects (because it's religious stuff and we're groovy), so they "arrest" police officers who I submit do not act on their own on these matters in Venezuela, and now they are free and probably heroes for being victimized. And then folks like you can come along behind the elephant and sweep the shit up. Nothing to see here folks, just a ramsacked Jewish House of Worship. Looks worse at a frat party, now move along. . .
They arrested the people who did it? Really PP? And you rest on that? Really?
By the way, my brother-in-law was born in Cuba, and and his father left Cuba after Castro took over and after he had supported Castro for years while Batista was still in control. Fidel Castro was no friend of Israel by any stretch of the imagination., but I would submit that at least in his old and reflective years, he's no anti-semite. And, unlike you and millions of others around the world, Fidel did not dismiss the anti-semitism in people like Hugo Chavez. In fact Fidel Castro spoke out against Chavez, publicly spanked him, in a carefully selected interview he gave to Jeffrey Goldbeg And Castro, who unlike you and all of the other stifled Americans, had no qualms about spanking Chavez, and he had an immdiate impact on Chavez , at least in the short term. Here's Goldberg:
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 9:15am
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 9:38am
Oops. Methinks our love affair in discourse has taken a turn for the worse. Pity.
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 9:44am
Yes, you just started throwing shit out and making it up, rather than reflection & factual reference.
Ad lib & faking it sometimes makes for a lousy relationship.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 9:55am
ToS warning for the previous comment, Peracles. Please avoid ad hominems.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 12:46pm
Yes, gets frustrating validating something with concrete links, and then someone just wishes those away and makes another outrageous claim out of thin air or "suspicion".
Anyway, wasted way too much time on this, like pounding sand. But perhaps will give a little impartial context on Chavez & Venezuela.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 12:58pm
Frustration happens. We just want to prevent frustration from deteriorating into flame wars and grudge matches.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 1:10pm
Entiendo, no grudges.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 1:41pm
An "oversensitive hack"? Shit, I've been called a helluva worse than that. Sorry I didn't google, but I have no doubt that the "convicted police officers" are doing just fine. I stand by that. I say that once the international headlights turned away--because the whole world was watching Venezuela especially when Castro spoke out--those convicted of desecrating a Jewish House of Worship (frat party, I know) those folks are doing just fine. I have no doubt about that, and nor do I care if in your view or in anyone else's view that makes me a hack.
Sorry to fart in the Chavez memorial circle jerk. That's not my line. I stole if from Zionista, another progressive zionist who used to write with us over at the Cafe, but who eventually gave up because there was so little room for people who don't hate Israel to write on the 'so-called' left. Great line though, so h/t Zionista.
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 9:55am
So even US Embassy reports no longer satisfy you.
Welcome to the reality-challenged. Here's one for you: we didn't send a man to the moon, it was all faked. And Chavez really made the poor suffer - he cooked the books and the IMF bought it. Black is white, up is down.
And you're an ass if you think what I wrote is being part of a Chavez circle jerk - just because I didn't set my hair on fire?
Ah well, that's enough. Enjoy your delusion & paranoia.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 9:59am
Thanks, but your one overstated gotcha on googling doesn't change the fact that you really helped me flesh out my reservations about Chavez and his treatment of his Jewish constituents in Venezuela. At least in this little corner of the world, anyone who has read this thread might: (1) be satisfied and understand that the U.S. presence at Chavez' funeral was perfectly appropriate and not a breach of diplomatic protocol; and (2) Chavez used Jew-baiting while he led Venezuela.
Name-calling is OK. What matters is that we get to say what we believe in our hearts, which of course is quite different than looking for arguments with the help of selective googlin' under every mushroom in the forest, eh?
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 11:06am
If they read the links such as
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/88901/the-dispossessed...
https://nacla.org/node/6106
and basic facts on change in GDP, poverty, crime, nationalization, etc. from 1999-2013, (in context with world events), they will have detailed background and context to figure it out for themselves.
Then they may or may not choose your, my or anyone else's spin on Chavez & Venezuela & the US' influence & policy during recent times.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 12:38pm
None of your links suggests that this was an "inside job" as I and I think most honest and unbiased rational folks would understand that term. I have no trouble standing by the notion that an "inside job" is not one simply because folks working on the inside abetted the operation. None of your links suggests otherwise, and it's an important point, because at the threshold calling it an "inside job" detracts from the undisputed presence of police officers there participating in what you call a house party.. Here's how the Forward reports it (and if you think that the Forward is biased in favor of Israel and Jews then you don't know the Forward (there is and remains intense internal criticism in the Jewish press)):
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 2:01pm
Behind paywall. Police were convicted of aggravated theft (or robbery) & embezzlement - how those charges stuck when "nothing was stolen from the synagogue" from your source, idunno, but the fence cut from the inside does point to that part being an inside job.
If there were no valuables stolen, then the police involvement might be suspicious. I only know what I read in Haaretz & the State cable.
Here, last source & I quit - maybe this gives you info you need, maybe not
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 3:18pm
When you learn the elements of those crimes under Venezuelan and/or Caracas law, let me know. In the interim, you googled away into the ozone on this one. Why don't you then challenge the Forward (that Jew right-wing right or wrong publication :)) and tell us what was stolen from the synagogue? You've got lots of links and that should not be too hard to figure out. So first you criticize me for not googling, then I google, and now my googled source has to be wrong according to you?
What was stolen PP? You have the links. Do tell, and while you're at it, help us out here. I've been practicing law for almost 30 years now, not much criminal, but I do know that terms like robbery, embezzlement, etc. have precise meanings that differ across state-lines. I have no idea what robbery means, whether it was pled as a compromise, or even how Venezuelan law works. I think you need a better link to demonstrate that the cops were there with "insiders" to steal something, and that the stolen something was (fill in the blanks PP and link away).
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 3:34pm
You've already proven the police were Chavez insiders by insinuating it, so why should I Google it out? An accusation is all that's needed. N-Joy.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 4:07pm
I don't get your reason for nitpicking to death on the synagogue story,don't understand where you think it will take you.
Perception of anti-semitism is in the mind of the recipient like beauty is in the mind of the beholder or someone knowing pornography when they see it.
I just took a look at this laundry list on Wikipedia, Accusations of Chávez anti-Semitism, and then trying to imagine myself a Venezuelan Jew, I'd say, yes, there's enough there to make me feel nervous about being unwelcome in my own country. But then another Venezuelan Jew's mileage may differ. Arguing "he didn't really mean that" or "they really didn't do it that way," doesn't often change perceptions like this. Yes, history has taught Jews to be very suspecting with this type of stuff. So? You are going to nitpick with small counterfactuals about how maybe it really wasn't like that or maybe they/he didn't mean it like that until they change their mind?
I do proudly come from this angle: if someone really wants to make sure that they aren't appearing anti-Semitic, it's really not that hard to do.
Another thing--your arguments sound sorta like David Seaton here--i.e., all Jews should move to
Miamithe U.S., that's where they really belong, then we wouldn't have to be fatigued by their tiresome whining and ultra sensitivities anymore....by artappraiser on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 3:45pm
It's not "nit-picking" - we tried to overthrow Chavez with a coup, we put sanctions on him. These anti-semitism charges are used to drive more US repercussions. Ironic considering the wide-scale killing around Latin America during the 70's-80's.
I didn't say Venezuelan Jews shouldn't feel uncomfortable - and I said there was unacceptable anti-Semitism - I said they're not being killed, beaten, Jewish property confiscated for being Jewish, restricted from where they go, allowed to even leave with belongings, unlike say the Soviet Union.
But the Venezuelan Jews are writing that the biggest driver for emigration is economic (plus valid concerns of kidnapping), not this discrimination/anti-semitic comment stuff - so you're going to take a New York Jew's worry over the actual concerns of Venezuelan Jews?
Re: David Seaton, read my mind (promised not to write this stuff). Venezuelan Jews did en masse move to Miami and Israel primarily - I never said it was "where they really belong", so kindly keep your words out of my mouth. I linked to an article describing the new exile boom from Paris, Peru, Venezuela, etc. living in Miami, as well as an article describing the exodus to Colombia & elsewhere. This is backing up the discussion with real insights, not telling anyone where they need to go.
Oh, I also noted that most Jews in Venezuela are 1-3 generations there, not 2 centuries old as the hyperbolic rhetoric likes to intimate. That doesn't mean 2nd generation has no rights - simply they're not founding fathers, if that's worth anything, and that those using this story for other purposes are trying to get more mileage by exaggeration and distorting.
Again, my issue about "whining" was comparing a vandalism case where no one was hurt with Kristallnacht, a huge slaughter and turning point in the rise of Hitler and the decimation of Jews in Germany. Or do you think it's a slippery slope, that every overturned tombstone or spraypainted graffiti can suddenly coalesce into a modern pogrom with gas chambers?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 4:10pm
Man I can assure you that this person's concern about Chavez Jew-baiting, or what might happen under his weaker successors, has absolutely nothing to do with U.S. policy. I cannot google that to prove that I'm not a proponent of American policy towards Latin America in the 70s and 80s, so I guess you don't have to believe me.
You just keep digging deeper PP. Yes, some people exploit all kinds of things, including antisemitism. But you are leading with a serious allegation, i.e. that folks like me are using this to promote right-wing death squads, and you don't have a google cite for this one. :)
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 4:13pm
I'm saying you make an easy patsy for US messaging/faux scandal. Not that I don't make an easy patsy for some other US messaging. Just easy to manipulate us, is all. We make fun of Muslims over Mohammed cartoons, but we're all primed to go nuts these days.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 4:57pm
Funny you should mention the death squad thing. I found the following recent read quite interesting. Turns out one can be a Latin American with a history of exposing death squads and eliciting the wrath of the Reagan administration for the same. And this same person can be uncomfortable with Chavez's "Peronist brand of popularity" and think that "he most resembled, Juan Domingo Perón of Argentina. Or rather, as Perón and his wife Evita have, for in his complicated appeal (and his manner of dying, too) Chávez resembles both." And wonder "whether the people he leaves behind regressed into a kind of childhood faith and dependency under his spell and what the price of such regression might be."
by artappraiser on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 7:54pm
The comments in the NYBooks piece are better than the article.
Chavez used oil windfall to increase GDP for all 2 1/2 times, decrease of poverty from 23% to 9%.What did we get in the US? Rubber biscuit.
But the most important thing for Alma is.... whether Chavez resembles Peron. Sad.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 03/13/2013 - 2:16am
"But what you suggest is extraordinary and unacceptable and it is the crux of what dogs me and what I end up writing about much too often. What you are suggesting is that this Jew close his eyes to the suffering of Jews in Venezuela, and I won't do it."
Nonsense. I'm suggesting you don't exaggerate it, and put in context with what other Venezuelans are going through. Even the article you link does so:
Your article to its credit doesn't use the robbery-cum-vandalism-distraction in the synagogue.
It also doesn't trump up the school search to make it feel like a gunpoint affront of little kids.
It also notes that despite concerns about being spied on by secret service, Jews came and went with no harassment. (hey, this sounds like our government)
But "P.S. What happened in Argentina is also criminal" - oh my God, no. What happened in Argentina is murder, uninvestigated overlooked mass murder. It's not "also" anything. This did not happen in Venezuela. Chavez asking Venezuelan Jews to show sympathy for Palestinian victims of war shouldn't be put in the same discussion with Argentina.
As I noted, Chavez's anti-semitism in the campaign (and outside of it) was cheap and nasty. I'm not pushing anything under the rug. Aside from some nasty rhetoric, there seems to be no significant official repression of Jews under Chavez - just a typical Latin American political & economic mess that he did a fairly good job of - and popular anti-Jewish actions didn't seem to be remarkable compared to many/most places (no murders or horrid beatings or targeted confiscation of property, say, vs. graffiti and what not, some statements of Chavez' misquoted in the press to promote hysteria, some accurate and regrettable and worthy of condemnation).
I would think you'd also dislike being used for US propaganda purposes.
Here's a good quite long article that gives you a much better feel for the actual situation in Venezuela:
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/88901/the-dispossessed...
It gives you an idea that we're talking about mostly fairly well off Jews affected by nationalization of oil & other business - something say Mexico, Iran & Libya did as well, to US chagrin. Many of the Jews are post-war arrivals - either refugees or oil yuppies/inheritors- and it's clear there's not a multi-century allegiance to Venezuela. (would an entrenched family really clear out of their home of 2 centuries from 13 years of Chavez' actions, compared to anti-Semitism and political/economic upheaval in centuries past?)
The fear of kidnapping in Latin America is warranted under this class, Jewish or not (the Brazilian Jew who provided original equipment for LinkedIn and now lives in Singapore originally came to the US from fears of kidnapping). The extra concern from being Jewish on top of this and the extra pressure on the wealthy - part of the ugly side of socialism and its 'affirmative action' - could easily lead to emigration, and again, we're talking 11,000 people over 14 years - not a huge wave by world standards.
And methinks, the rich hate him.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 9:06am
I'm sorry PP, and I really do appreciate your attempts to find common ground--and I mean that because because it's not what I'm used to over the years, but your suggestion that I and perhaps some other Jews get "perspective" is just not possible PP. Hugo Chavez was not a Nazi, and neither are his successors. But the Nazis just finished their work a few decades ago. You ask a lot of the Jewish People when you encourage "perspective". Lots of Jews are tired of it, most American Jews want nothing to do with this stuff, most don't take the Holocaust personally anymore. I understand that, and we play with the hand we're dealt. I take it personally and without apology. So when I see Jews scape-goated anywhere I react, and again without apology, and hopefully without loss of "perspective" with respect to the rest of humanity.
Peace out.
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 9:28am
How many decades before you stop jumping at small shadows and start putting in context things that some of your Jewish brethren don't seem to have trouble doing?
When the Israeli press debunks something like the synagogue vandalism, how come you can cling onto the debunked story?
Funny, I thought the Jewish people on the whole were rather brilliant, funny, resilient, and now you're telling me that "perspective" isn't in their vocabulary or genetic makeup? Sorry, I don't buy it.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 9:47am
PP, as I wrote, I know the blood better than you do, even without googling, and most Jews think just like you do I think--they want to forget, they just want to be like every other mook, and they don't want to live in the past.
I don't agree with that and, G-d willing, I will never forget. Now you, from this debate, extrapolate something which is the essence of a "problem" I have. You seem to indicate that my concern about Jews and what has been done historically to them has precluded me from recognizing the plight of the rest of humanity. It's all this Jewish paranoia, right PP?
You really need to quit while you're ahead. You had me on the overstated googlin' gotcha (a shanda, I know). And your gotcha is overstated because what you link to does not establish--as you would like it too-- that the ramsacking of the synagogue in Caracas was solely an "inside job". Yes, there were participants who worked in worked at the synagogue and who facilitated the break-in, but that is different than what is an inside job. You are confident that the police officers who were "convicted" acted on their own with the help of a couple of folks on the inside, I get it, and you have a link or two to support your contention. I get that too. And still I will look myself in the mirror and laugh out loud with respect to the contention that the break-in was an inside job. And you can call me a hack.
But let me respond to the personal stuff you for whatever reason chose to bring into this debate. I am going to get personal now, not to toot my own horn, but your challenge needs to be placed in proper context. You wrote that I should be like the other Jews whom you say have context. That is personal, kind of offensive FWIW, and I will respond personally:
I am an American Jew born in the United States who feels an incredible bond to his people because of what happened to my family in Europe, because of my parents, because I grew up in a non-Jewish community, and because I'm 53 and I've been all over the map politically, culturally, and spiritually. But in speaking on behalf of Jews (as I see fit), I am also:
1. A union lawyer with student loans from my three older kids that will (literally) take me a lifetime to pay off. I became a union lawyer to give back something to working people, mostly non-Jews in droves, and at the cost of taking on a labor job representing employers--which of course would have eliminated the whole loan thingie. But by and large I am proud of the career choice I made in my 20s, and one thing my ex- and I always agreed on was that we would give our kids the best education we thought they could get. We didn't just look at Jewish schools by the way--heck I am fairly certain they we didn't look at any.
2. A Manhattan dweller solely based on the fact that I got remarried to a woman who I am madly in love with and who happens to live in Manhattan, and now we are blessed with a little one after all of my other kids have grown up. When I got divorced way back when, I lived in someone's garage for almost three years. I ain't made of money.
3. A father of four kids, one with special needs which has opened up a whole new world for me, one in Mexico on a Fulbright teaching English and falling in love with the non-Jewish people of Chiapas, one French major working in the museum world (not a Jewish museum), and one more mainstream driven daughter doing PR (and dating a non-Jew from New Zealand who is more than welcome in my home). I love each and every one of them more than the others. And that has nothing to do with being Jewish and that's like 99.9 percent of my real life.
4. A long-time person of the American left, who is committed to social and economic justice in his country as much as he is committed to anything, who puts his money and his career where his mouth is and doesn't just talk about politics and the way things should be, and who wrestles constantly between my love of of the Jewish People, a love of Israel, and a detestation of some of what is done by Israel's leadership--in particlular this heinous Occupation and settlement growth which threatens to destroy the Jewish State.
5. I am as American as apple pie, and proud of it too.
So what fucking lack of context are you talking about PP? Please don't fall into the trap of presuming that never forgetting means something other than it is. That's far more offensive than calling me a name.
I'm not asking for your name, and maybe personal stuff should be off-limits, but not when you suggest that my focus on the Holocaust fails to give me context. I think it is more probable that your obsession with any foreign leader or government that doesn't bend over for the American government causes you to lose context and to do things like sweep Jew baiting by folks like Chavez under the rug.
I think you need to take stock and ask yourself if that's where you need to be--if that's where any person who believes in humanity should be.
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 11:27am
I never asked you to "forget".
I did ask to put the Jew-baiting in context. (e.g. different than Jew murder in Argentina, no?)
"Yes, there were participants who worked in worked at the synagogue and who facilitated the break-in, but that is different than what is an inside job."
inside job - definition
a crime committed by or with the help of someone who works within the organization where it happens
"You are confident that the police officers who were "convicted" acted on their own with the help of a couple of folks on the inside"
As my earlier comment was removed for my invective it seems, the pertinent parts that I know only from the news & US Embassy are repeated below (without invective this time). That 3 of their charges were conspiracy, aggravated theft & embezzlement, it makes me think vandalism was not their primary purpose.
But like the GOP with the Benghazi killings, we can certainly twist this incident to be almost anything.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 12:51pm
The bit about the robbery was reported in Haaretz and Ynews - want to accuse them of anti-semitism too?
http://archives.truenorthperspective.com/Feb_09/Feb_20/venezuela_jews.html
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/2.209/report-caracas-synagogue-attac...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3669336,00.html
Here's the followup 4 months later, where they've been detained and are going to trial (Yeshiva World, presumably you can trust it?).
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=34470
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 12:54pm
We both know that anti-Semitism exists. It may be more common AND more damaging in today's world than I see it as being but it may also not be nearly as pervasive and influential in the world as it seems to you.
When a "people" are demonized, brutalized, marginalized, dis-empowered, stolen from, and exterminated to the extent possible because of who they are, I can understand that some bitter feelings will last for a long time, often through many generations. Such things are hard to forgive, hard to forget, and as you point out, should not be forgotten, but the remembrance should, ideally, feed understanding before inciting whiplash rejection. No government, none anywhere, will fail to cynically use those feelings, where they exist, to its advantage and large parts of any population still react as expected, but our myth story is that greater liberal education and sociological evolution will help us sort the wheat from the chafe a bit more intelligently.
1980 is now 33 three years away. An American person who was a U.S. citizen, as opposed to a South or Central American person, would need be around 53 years old or older to have any likely chance to have been aware, at that time, of the crimes being committed in C. and S. America by the U.S. In this indictment of crime I include the crimes of U.S. supported dictators kept in power by brutal military and paramilitary forces trained and supplied by the U. S. The School of the Americas is a lasting shameful example of our country's willful, disgraceful, disgusting disregard for the humanity of the common citizens of S. and C. America as it played its geopolitical game.
I was in Nicaragua for a short time in 1980. I was then, and remain now, very friendly to the people living south of Texas. I worked a bit in support of the Nicaraguan revolution. I felt then and continue to feel that I was on the right side. I was surprised back then that feelings there and in the other C. and S. American countries I traveled in were so friendly and accepting of U.S. Americans. I wondered why I felt no blame directed at me as part of their problem. I concluded eventually that their own experience led them to put the blame on the government which, again in their own experience, did not necessarily reflect the desires and feelings of its citizens. Besides, so many of their relatives had gone to America and sent back glowing reports of the life and opportunities along with some cash. Sadly, I believe this is changing. Sad but understandable, IMO, because of higher education rates and vastly better communication of facts and ideas. S. and C. America are going through a revolution which is rejecting much of what the West has tried too impose upon them. They have not got it all right so far but they have some very valid reasons to reject and react to their historical situation. Worldwide, the opinion held of Americans in general, the opinions of their character and nature held about them just because they are Americans, is falling.
A million is a big number. Are you aware of the millions of people who died under the brutal reigns of various dictators in the Americas?
Millions. Of people. Murdered. Millions. More. Tortured. Millions more displaced internally and internationally. Millions left alive who have first hand memories and just as likely to see events through their own spectrum and harbor grudges particular to their own experience as any other person. Millions more who only hear the stories from parents and grandparents but have their current situation and their view of it sharply colored and affected by those stories. Being human, they do not always aim their grievances exactly accurately. Sometimes the stories create or enhance prejudices.
Bear with me if you can, this ultimately has a point.
South and Central Americans have a perspective formed from their own holocausts.
Can you imagine that this support of brutal authoritarianism might cause some resentment among the affected people? To the extent that a self-proclaimed "Jewish State" aids in the brutality, are you surprised that some affected people blame 'Jews'?
I understand your livid rejection of anti-Semitism and I am against it myself just like, but not especially more so, I am against other forms of racial, ethnic, and religious bigotry. Suppose the above information, and there is one hell of a lot more available, was put on a test as a hypothetical. Part of a question about how humans can be expected to act and react. Suppose one of the test questions was whether the actions described would increase or decrease the amount of anti-Semitism among the affected people. What would your answer be? Suppose you were to guess whether that information would ever be used cynically by a politician among those affected people whether he was actually anti-Semitic or not. What answer then? Do you ever consider that you may be asking the world to have a much more evolved and forgiving standard when reacting to Israeli actions than when reacting to the same sorts of things between other groups?
Do you believe that the above actions are morally, ethically, philosophically, legally, or in any other way, justifiable? I do not. [ Remember, please, that I hold my own country to be more responsible and I hold all U.S. Americans to be at least somewhat responsible] Do you see how an affected person who sees that his family was tortured before being murdered and it was done with the aid of a country proudly self-described as a Jewish State might come to jump past any nuanced explanation, might not have a whole lot of forgiveness in his heart, and might just blame his family's plight on Jews rather than on the Israeli government? Can you completely reject that person's gripe because he has technically and maybe honestly by his lights embraced an anti-Semitic dialog to express his feelings? Do you ever cringe, like I do, when you hear the increasing Muslim phobia being spouted and encouraged by some of our own country's people? Is it somehow more forgivable than the rhetoric that drives you crazy? Can you imagine how an Iraqi might consider all Americans to be devils? I am not a devil, you are not a devil, how dare they come to such a conclusion about Americans? Fuck them. Oh yeah, we already did that. now what do they want, a kiss? Would that make everything alright?
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 5:13pm
I understand that you would like to have a colloquy with me. I'm not interested. I appreciate that for whatever reason you seem to want to debate, but I'm not sorry about my posture. I just perused your comment and saw that you were asking me if I could understand why people might blame Jews for things or be antisemitic, given that Israel considers itself, as does the UN by the way, to be a Jewish State. And that just reaffirms why I have no interest in discussing these things with you, because I really have no interest at all in explaining or excusing antisemitism as a product of what Jews call Israel. The notion is absurd and offensive--again. And I still want to believe that you are smart enough to comprehend that.
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 6:26pm
Not necessarily wanting either a colloquy or a debate, but just throwing out some ideas and opinions first prompted by ideas and opinions you threw out.
My thinking when referencing Israel as being a self-described Jewish State was along the lines that if the U.S. was considered to be a Baptist State, then some Afghanistanis might direct hatred at Baptists just as if France considered itself to be a Catholic State rather than a French State that some Algerians would broaden their hatred of the French to include a hatred of Catholics everywhere when otherwise they wouldn't, but hey, that's just what them Catholics are like, apparently.
The Pope and a great deal of the Catholic hierarchy have recently come to be despised by many people, including many Catholics, because of the actions of priests and church leaders. That recently acquired disgust is usually not extended to Catholics in general but if the Pope said that child abuse was a 'Catholic Church' action and the Catholic people of the world did not completely distance themselves from that idea then Catholics as a group would be despised by many whether those Catholics had ever personally butt-fucked a young boy or not.
If Israel considered itself to be an Israeli State rather than a Jewish State I believe some victims in C. and S. America would think more abstractly that they were victims of just one more group of one more state's leaders rather than that they were victims of Jews.
Many people believe that power corrupts and so can separate the actions of the powerful leaders of a country from the general population of that country but if they are victims of a country which is acting as a 'Jewish' country and therefore acting 'as Jews", at least some will come to think that they are suffering because of "the Jews". Innocent Jews will suffer an undeserved image problem, or worse, as a result. Is that an absurd or offensive thing to conclude? [And offensive to who and why, even if it is a mistaken conclusion?]
Many Americans who have not suffered directly from any terrorist action have come to be suspicious of, and afraid of, and in many cases to even hate, all Muslims simply because our "enemies" of the day are always referred to with 'Muslim' before any other descriptor. Also, you might have heard: If American Muslims don't support terrorism why don't they speak out?
I was not asking you to agree that any Venezuelan's feelings of anti-Semitism are justified, but only if you could try to see and understand some simple characteristics of human nature. The ones I mention might be a small factor in the bigger picture we are talking about, but then anti-Semitism appears to have been a small factor in Venezuelan life.
There are many things which are absurd and offensive which are also just facts of life, like the many, many, times that the members of the UN have voted regarding their opinion of Israeli actions but the overwhelming conclusion was vetoed.
I would like to think you are smart enough to recognize that giving an example of how anti-Semitism might arise or expand in a particular situation of torture and death at the hands of Israeli trained paramilitaries is not the same as excusing it or apologizing for it. It is offering a reason, but again, not an excuse.
Do you excuse or apologize for the actions of the dictators which Israel supported and participated in when you strike out against anti-Semitism? Yeah, that is another question, but like most of my questions I don't expect you to respond directly or to the point so I am not expecting either a conversation or a debate or for our gaps in understanding each other to shrink. I'm simply responding to some things that just felt wrong and unnatural for me to ignore.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 9:42pm
You're being too kind.
I noted vandalism was really a disguised robbery, as reported in Israeli press.
The response was "they're police - they probably arrested them and let them go".
I showed where 6 were convicted for 10 years, other 5 scheduled for trial.
"I bet they didn't go to jail, and it was all for show".
Like pouring water in the desert.
Anyway, thanks for more detail on the Central American wars. A bit similar is Israel's military support of apartheid South Africa - not the most charming chapter in its history.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Unspoken-Alliance-Relationship-Apartheid/dp/B008SLSALY
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 03/13/2013 - 1:54am
So I googled because it seems that you're more intent on calling me a hack than being genuine, which is fine. So I say Jews have lived in Venezuela for centuries, and you take issue with that because, well because I guess it's an argument to make I why pass it up, right PP? So here's what your precious Google tells me about Jews in Venezuela:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Venezuela
I have no idea what it means that "[t]he Jewish community, however, did not become established in Venezuela until the middle of the 19th century." And if I don't know what that means, I bet you don't either (and I didn't google, that's my hunch).
But man you are just pulling out all the stops.
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 11:09am
While Jews were in Venezuela centuries ago, in 1926 there were fewer than 1000. Got it?
The exodus of 11,000 Venezuelan Jews recently is not much about early settlers & their descendents.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 12:27pm
Let's discuss this. So, before 1926, you find that there are only about 1,000 Jews in Venezuela and that most Jews seemed to have arrived there after WWII. And so that doesn't make me wrong that Jews have been in Venezuela for centuries, but what you are saying is that I am wrong--and I guess materially so--to link all Jews with those few Jews. OK, I guess.
So then all of these Jews come to Venezuela and by now, post-WWII, there are two to three generations living in that country, with at least one or two generations who have only known life in Venezuela, i.e. they were born there. I don't think it's easy for those folks to leave.
PP, two out of four of my grandparents were born in Europe. My Dad was born here and was raised speaking yiddish. So, you think it would be easy for me to leave this country if I had to? Do you think it would be easy for my Dad to leave? I don't; I think it's hard for folks, Jews and non-Jews, to leave the countries of their birth. I think that goes for Venezuelan Jews, even those who came after the Holocaust, and I think that is the point, the principal point, for us to be dwelling on.
As to Argentina, I think I could have used a word other than criminal, and I didn't. But I didn't write about Buenos Aires; if I wrote about everything that happens to Jews around the world you would think me even more of a hack.
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 1:08pm
Question 1 answered below.
Question 2 - if they speak Spanish, they can settle in Miami, which many have. If they speak Hebrew, they can settle in Israel, which many have.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 1:40pm
I think high school is an apt comparison to diplomatic relations. At least most countries have advanced far enough that they
no longerrarely go to war over snubs and grudges.But congrats to Canada for having the maturity to send a former prime minister. It's a great day in Ottawa.
PS Too bad we didn't send Dennis Rodman
by Michael Wolraich on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 2:36pm
Delahunt is very smart as I learned during the Clinton Impeachment.
The inimitable Barney Frank got most of the attention during the Committee hearing and rightly so. (Frank attended the Senate Debate and when a TV reporter asked why he wasn't more active he replied "I gave at the office").
LBJ sent Humphrey to represent us at DeGaulle's funeral unlike every other country which sent its head of Government and there were numerous secret meetings of usually antagonistic countries
A couple of days later Herblock showed a sulky LBJ watching a TV screen showing of Humphrey in such a meeting with LBJ saying "The next time DeGaulle dies, I'll go myself"
If there were meeting at which we ought to have been represented I expect Delahunt would have gone , and done a good job. But without being the potential kidnap candidate that Hillary would have been.
by Flavius on Sat, 03/09/2013 - 10:06pm
by jollyroger on Sun, 03/10/2013 - 2:29pm
Thanks for the news tip!
WWTSLD? [what would The Supreme Leader do?] Definitely not this disgusting, shameful & "deviant" touching of the filthy uncovered female skin and hair:
by artappraiser on Sun, 03/10/2013 - 3:56pm
Ahmadinejad is a lame duck, gone in a few months I believe - they'll attack him any way they can as they jostle to be successor.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Sun, 03/10/2013 - 4:31pm
Someone should caption it with one of those bubbles over his head imagining what he is thinking from the expression on his face. For example, "How do I get myself into these situations?" to reflect the culture clash.
I know, my bad.
by EmmaZahn on Sun, 03/10/2013 - 6:34pm
by jollyroger on Sun, 03/10/2013 - 8:15pm
Agree. Chavez was a democratically elected president, a highly popular one despite our gov's disagreements with him. Sending 2 unknowns is an insult to the Venezuelan people, not to Chavez. Obama's famously brittle temperament triumphs again.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Sun, 03/10/2013 - 4:34pm
Interesting turn these comments took, but largely irrelevant to my original point. In no way did my rant even touch on whether Chavez was a good guy or a bad guy, or whether his policies lined up with those of the U.S. My point was that it was in the American interest to play nice.
Chavez was freely elected four times and accepted the one referendum loss he suffered. Despite valid criticism over his handling of the economy and security, his Bolivarian revolution remains solidly popular -- a source of pride and dignity for most Venezuelans.
I keep reading in the U.S. press that he divided his country. When was the last U.S. president to win a vote by 60-40? (Nixon over McGovern, 1972.) Bottom line: Chavez was the legitimate representative of his country, and its people won't appreciate the U.S. snub of his funeral.
Artappraiser makes several valid points. One is that Maduro started the spat by expelling two U.S. diplomats as spies, while Chavez lay on his deathbed. Let me suggest that military attaches often are spies, and that countries tolerate reasonable amounts of such spying on each other. It was perfectly normal for the U.S. to sound out how loyal the military brass would be to Maduro -- and equally normal for Maduro to be antsy about that, especially with the opposition claiming loudly that his succession was unconstitutional. The State Department initially said it felt no need to retaliate.
Another point is that Delahunt is deeply immersed in the Venezuela file, and should have been part of the funeral delegation. I agree, but whatever practical value his presence brought, it carried no symbolic weight for the average Venezuelan. The low-key delegation was an insult.
Artappraiser is convinced the U.S. kept a low profile to placate Maduro; I don't buy it. If the U.S. really wanted to facilitate the transition, it could have acceded to Maduro's November proposal to exchange ambassadors. Instead, the U.S. insisted on confidence-building steps (read concessions). Let me suggest Maduro wanted that change to occur while Chavez was still theoretically in charge, so a thaw in relations could be portrayed as a simple continuation of Chavez's legacy. Now, such a move is going to be seen as caving in.
I think U.S. foreign policy is way overpoliticized, subject to turf wars between the White House, State, Congress and Dennis Rodman -- and so is largely incoherent and ineffective.
Fidel Castro is very likely to die during Obama's term. That funeral will feature every world leader with a plane at his or her disposal. Time is short to re-establish relations and end the stupid embargo. Or you could just continue the U.S.'s seemingly preferred role as diplomatic pariah.
by acanuck on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 5:26pm
From what I've read about Delahunt (thanks, appraiser), he would make an excellent ambassador to Venezuela. How long will it take until relations warm to the point they reportedly were at in November? No telling for now.
When the moment was ripe, Sadat went to Jerusalem, Nixon went to Beijing. Things changed. Obama repeatedly makes impressive-sounding feints, like his Nowruz message to the Iranian leadership, then declines to follow through. I'd love to be proved wrong.
by acanuck on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 6:04pm
The United States, wrongly I think, doesn't recognize Cuba. But I think that governs what America's presence will be at Castro's funeral. I would hope that after Castro leaves there will be more support for the kind of bilateral relations that two neighbors should have. And, respectfully, from what I know of the Cuban people which is not much more than any of us know, but my sister and brother-in-law (who was born in Cuba) were just there in January, and I have a hunch, no I have no question, that the Cuban People aren't going to care too much if the U.S. has representation at Castro's funeral. They'll just think it's more of the same embargo-garbage and yet they will embrace this country when given the opportunity.
And sorry about the OT stuff. I made my point, which I made because it just felt wrong and unnatural for me to ignore, and then I swiveled back to more directly address your post as you can see right after my initial comment, but things then took a sharp turn today when PP and I joined issue. I meant no disrespect to your original post; you raise a good point and make good arguments about how the U.S. is perceived overseas.
by Bruce Levine on Tue, 03/12/2013 - 6:19pm
I agree that U.S. foreign policy with Cuba and Venezuela is way over-politicized. Over-sensationalized, too. But both Castro and Chavez not only contributed to those but benefited from them. How much of their position and power do they owe to successfully standing against and even demonizing the U.S. as they were done in turn.
The problem for choosing representatives to their funerals is how they are perceived domestically, not internationally. Neither has been sufficiently de-demonized to be portrayed as opponents worthy of the highest honors. A shame in the case of Castro because imo he was a worthy opponent. He survived a very long time against very formidable odds.
Besides, it would be rude to send representatives whose presence would draw too much attention away from the guest of honor and chief mourners by politicizing and sensationalizing their funerals.
by EmmaZahn on Wed, 03/13/2013 - 10:46am