Michael Maiello's picture

    Can Everybody Be Right?

    Whatever is ultimately decided regarding Syria, I think that we have finally found an issue where both sides, in the main, have very reasonable and persuasive arguments.

    The arguments for action are humanitarian, have long term implications for global stability and, as recently argued by Secretary of State John Kerry, have a certain timeliness in that failing to act now could conceivably result in our having to react to something worse later on.  I also buy Michael Wolraich's argument that the use of chemical weapons is more akin to sending soldiers house to house to kill the families of the opposition than it is to the conventional use of weapons on the battlefield.

    All of this is to say that I believe that Obama and Congress could send the military into action without ulterior motives.  We can take the administration's reasoning at face value.

    That said, the opposition is truly loyal here and its arguments are also sound.  The situation is complex, the situation seems tailor made to spiral out of control, it seems unlikely we can have the effect we want while also limiting the extent of our engagement the way that we want and, as a matter of global policy the U.S. seems to lack sufficient international support for legitimacy, much less legality.

    Then there's the very contentious point about whether or not we really want to help the Syrian rebels.  Both sides acknowledge that there are bad actors on the rebel side.  The pro-intervention argument is that this is a problem that can be managed.  The anti-intervention argument is that we have heard that argument before and that it does not always work out for us, especially in the long run.

    My own mild preference is not to intervene as I don't like the risk-reward potential and I don't think highly of any of the Middle East governments that are so eager for us to act on their behalf.  I say let them do it.  I am also highly skeptical of the "Responsibility to Protect," doctrine and I am annoyed that given all of the times the Federal government has claimed poverty over domestic spending since the Financial Crisis, from mortgage foreclosure relief to food stamps, that nobody questions that we have the money to spend bombing Syria and seeing it through even if things get out of hand.

    All that said, I accept that this could go against my preference for pure and decent reasons.  Also, I give Obama some Libya credit for management skill.  It may be that he can avoid the disasters that I think are certain.

    Finally, I recognize that my own answer, do nothing, as a lot of undesirable consequences.

    These are times of strident opinions but, overall, I think this particular issue does not call for stridency for either side.  If we act, I hope it is done with care, skill and a commitment to the ethics that should define progressive interventionism.  If we do not, I hope that decision will be respected rather than dismissed as some sort of shirked obligation.

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    I see this effort as a bit of symbolism and an attempt to play the long game in the ME.

    Obama makes noises about a limited, morality-based strike in Syria, and takes it to Congress. This gives him points at home, driving home the notion that he's a team player who (ahem) does not do anything without a clear ok from Congress. It also positions him as a "good guy" abroad--"hey, he tried to do something about Assad, he must understand, at least to some extent, the situation of everyday people in Syria." Expect this to be pointed out relentlessly to whoever ends up at the top of the heap there, and played as a recurring meme on the street.

    Even if Assad ends up taking back power, he's hardly in a spot to complain about US action, as he did gas his own people, or we think he did, anyway.

    Best of all, if Congress nixes the plan, we spend no money but go on record as having tried!

    Admittedly a rather cynical take on the situation, but I'd say that unless there's some sort of booby trap that would pull the US into extended hostilities, this is a FP win no matter how it goes.

    (And I still think we should reconsider the policy of not assassinating leaders who use chemical weapons on their own people. Just talking about it would shake things up....)


    More likely that everybody is wrong. I just ran across this article, The Middle East in Context, by Tom Whipple:

    Moving beyond all these geopolitical disputes, which in the long run may turn out to be of only minor significance, we have some real issues: excessive population growth, climate change, food and water growing short, and medieval cultural practices that are out of tune with what takes place in most contemporary cultures.

    Take Egypt as a prime example. Here we have a civilization that has survived for thousands of years. Their underlying problem today, however, is that there are now about 84 million Egyptians, up from the 2 million or less that got along so well for all those millennia. The Nile simply can’t support a population of this size and the country is already dependent on imported food while continuing to grow at a breakneck pace. This was OK for a while, except that Egypt can no longer afford to pay for their imported wheat, or their oil for that matter, and are dependent on the richer Gulf Arabs for handouts.

    More and more countries have oil & power shortages, but even more ominously, more and more countries have water problems, which of course leads to food problems, and often leads to tribal conflicts. Heaving a few missiles at them isn't going to make those problems go away.


    William Polk suggests that climate change and the associated drought, draining of the aquifer, collapse of farming, and hunger is a precipitating cause of the Syrian civil war.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/your-labor-day-...

    Syria has been convulsed by civil war since climate change came to Syria with a vengeance. Drought devastated the country from 2006 to 2011. Rainfall in most of the country fell below eight inches (20 cm) a year, the absolute minimum needed to sustain un-irrigated farming. Desperate for water, farmers began to tap aquifers with tens of thousands of new well. But, as they did, the water table quickly dropped to a level below which their pumps could lift it. 

    In some areas, all agriculture ceased. In others crop failures reached 75%. And generally as much as 85% of livestock died of thirst or hunger. Hundreds of thousands of Syria’s farmers gave up, abandoned their farms and fled to the cities and towns in search of almost non-existent jobs and severely short food supplies. Outside observers including UN experts estimated that between 2 and 3 million of Syria’s 10 million rural inhabitants were reduced to “extreme poverty.”

    The domestic Syrian refugees immediately found that they had to compete not only with one another for scarce food, water and jobs, but also with the already existing foreign refugee population. Syria already was a refuge for quarter of a million Palestinians and about a hundred thousand people who had fled the war and occupation of Iraq. Formerly prosperous farmers were lucky to get jobs as hawkers or street sweepers. And in the desperation of the times, hostilities erupted among groups that were competing just to survive.

    Survival was the key issue. The senior UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) representative in Syria turned to the USAID program for help. Terming the situation “a perfect storm,” in November 2008, he warned that Syria faced “social destruction.” He noted that the Syrian Minister of Agriculture had “stated publicly that [the] economic and social fallout from the drought was ‘beyond our capacity as a country to deal with.’” But, his appeal fell on deaf ears: the USAID director commented that “we question whether limited USG resources should be directed toward this appeal at this time.” (reported on November 26, 2008 in cable 08DAMASCUS847_a to Washington and “leaked” to Wikileaks )

    Whether or not this was a wise decision, we now know that the Syrian government made the situation much worse by its next action. Lured by the high price of wheat on the world market, it sold its reserves. In 2006, according to the US Department of Agriculture, it sold 1,500,000 metric tons or twice as much as in the previous year. The next year it had little left to export; in 2008 and for the rest of the drought years it had to import enough wheat to keep its citizens alive.

    So tens of thousands of frightened, angry, hungry and impoverished former farmers flooded constituted a “tinder” that was ready to catch fire. The spark was struck on March 15, 2011 when a relatively small group gathered in the town of Daraa to protest against government failure to help them. Instead of meeting with the protestors and at least hearing their complaints, the government cracked down on them as subversives. The Assads, who had ruled the country since 1971, were not known for political openness or popular sensitivity. And their action backfired. Riots broke out all over the country, and as they did, the Assads attempted to quell them with military force. They failed to do so and, as outside help – money from the Gulf states and Muslim “freedom fighters” from the rest of the world – poured into the country, the government lost control of over 30% of the country’s rural areas and perhaps half of its population. By the spring of 2013, according to the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR), upwards of 100,000 people had been killed in the fighting, perhaps 2 million have lost their homes and upwards of 2 million have fled abroad. Additionally, vast amounts of infrastructure, virtually whole cities like Aleppo, have been destroyed.


    Your first sentence is exactly what I was going to say. We can't all be right, but we can surely all be wrong.


    Michael, I think the trap you, and many of us, fall into is our paucity of choices and of imagination. To bomb or not to bomb shouldn't be the only question.

    I know "diplomacy" is often thrown out there like a blanket to cover the complexities without requiring much further thought.

    "Diplomacy" is the liberal's one-word answer to every conflict. But what does it mean?

    I think that is the task: To fill out the word diplomacy. To build broad alliances. Find pressure points. Gain leverage. Shine a constant spotlight.

    And in the meantime, focus very publicly on humanitarian aid, including shelter for refugees until they can go home safely.

    I have been too focused on the issue of sarin gas, understandably. It is an important issue, but in terms of bringing peace to Syria, or creating the conditions for peace in Syria, it is a small piece of the puzzle. So why bomb that small piece?

    Obama has taken special care to reassure us that this will be a "limited" engagement. This is designed to make the bombing feel safe. Instead, he should be working more broadly (if he isn't) to help end the conflict and leave bombing way in the back of his back pocket. He can't stop the fighting like that, and he shouldn't be judged on that basis, but only for using his resources and imagination to foster peace.

     


    I would prefer the US not bomb Syria, it won't bring the region one step closer to peace. Other means can be taken to bring those responsible to justice. I predict that Obama will finally achieve unprecedented bipartisan Congressional agreement, against entering the Syrian civil war.

    With the first bomb dropped the United States will incur the responsibility for every death, every atrocity, every refugee and every day that this civil war continues.

    It is far past time for Muslim leaders to resolve themselves, the peculiar propensity for intolerance, tribalism and religious discord and violence, that is so much a part of their history. Maybe our Nobel Peace Prize winner President can discern how to help them do that, without the use of bombs and missiles.

    If this resolution does fail, the question is, will Obama himself fade into near irrelevancy, not only in Middle East policy, but domestically?


    With the first bomb dropped the United States will incur the responsibility for every death, every atrocity, every refugee and every day that this civil war continues

    More and more I am convinced that this is really the crux of the problem. Jon Lee Anderson does a good job of writing on that today.

    Here's what I am thinking. Since the U.S. developed a C.I.A., there was always the conspiracy theorizing but it maintained a certain level where the majority of the world did not buy into it. A president like Clinton could lob missiles and not get conspiracy theorizing up the kazoo by everyone in the world because one hit the Chinese embassy in Belgrade by mistake, or another hit a factory in Sudan that turned out not to be exactly as described.

    The post 9-11 worlds seems to have changed that. Major major blame should go to the Bush administration with Iraq.

    But there is also the "Arab springs" where the tendency to heavy conspiracy theorizing developed under dictatorial reigns has not had the time to wear off yet. While the internet revolution offers long-term promise in that regard, short-term, conspiracy and sectarian suspicion of "the other" can be fed by the internet to the point of flames. (An example: blasphemy and The Prophet.)

    Enter Edward Snowden. (Pre-emptive: I am not blaming Snowden for creating that which he is revealing, OK?  That's a given. It's the timing that's the problem.) The whole fucking world now mistrusts the U.S.

    Put it all together in one package. And it ends up like this: it's hard to envision an example of a situation where the U.S. can intervene militarily without being totally counter-productive.  I.E., something like Kosovo > military intervention > Dayton accords can no longer happen. Our reputation is currently ruined for doing anything like that. Obama's methods in foreign policy, as well as his allowing the growth of the surveillance state, have not helped that, but made it worse.

    Back to right now.

    It's just intuition, based on what has happened so far. And there are many variables in the coming week(s) that could change things. We still have votes and debates to go, the administration's lobbying effects, a speech by the President to the American public, a U.N. chem weapons report coming, etc. But here's what I think right now: the President could drop his quest to act militarily tomorrow and will have accomplished the main goal: Assad's name is Mudd for using chemical weapons. And after vigorously continuing a fight to act at the G-20 meeting, if Assad uses them again, Obama can say to the world: I told you so. So the affect has already been achieved by the threat of action, there is actually no need to go through with it. And though he might continue to fight for the right to do so, he may very well chose not to.

     


    Good points. Assad is almost certainly going to tighten up or prohibit any chemical use anyway as I don't think they really need it. The fact is many Arab leaders are sadistic nutcases. Bombing will not change that fact.

    NYT has had reports on the atrocities of the rebels. Add that to the apparent fact that the 'secular western supporting good guy rebels' seem to be Chalabi types who live in London, while the fighters on the ground are to a very large extent Jihadist fanatics or would be warlords, and if Assad falls.....you get what? Not a peaceful secular western style democracy.

    I would say Obama needs to take another vacation and leave this chemical use enforcement to the UN or the Hague.


    See my reply to you on this other thread for more thoughts on the jihadi thing.

    Glad to get your input on what I said here.


    P.S. I initially put in the wrong link; it's fixed now.


    Good links, esp the New Yorker guy with the foreign Jihadis.

    Libya had no real civil war and consists of a highway on the coast with a few large cities on it, and still the nation seems to be unable to unify, though it is relatively peaceful.

    Syria is a basket case no telling when it all will ever end. Maybe the French can pay a Syrian General to knock off Assad and start 'reconciliation'?


    the New Yorker guy

    The writer is a woman! Kind of amazing, that. She described in the article that "Omar" helped her over steep terrain by offering her the end of his rifle rather than his hand, because it is forbidden to touch her, since she is not family.  And that he forgot twice that it was loaded when he did that!

    On Libya, I would just point out  that the Libyan intervention was not seen as led by the U.S.

    Maybe the French can pay a Syrian General to knock off Assad and start 'reconciliation'?

    I was just having a fantasy of the U.N. making Putin take most of the Syrian refugees until his good buddy finishes his desire to kill everyone left that won't vow that Alawite are not kafir but are Allah's chosen leaders. It's not that far from Damascus to like, Belgorod; put em in ferries over the Black Sea.  Putin could then have some of the joy he has helped give Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq by supporting Assad in using arms instead of  coming to a negotiation table. (I dunno know about doing that to Iran, though, loads of incoming Sunnis, probably not a good idea.)


    They have waited too long to do anything in this case. Syria is dispersing its weapons throughout the country increasing the number of targets and potential collateral damage. And attacking now would also give them cover to release more gas and blame US. Plus, Iran and other adversaries have had time to develop and coordinate their own unpleasant responses to any attacks.

    At this point, best thing would be to acknowledge that the grand jury of public opinion failed to produce the indictment needed to act but let Assad know in no uncertain terms that if the weapons are used again, he will be held personally responsible. They are his toys. If he cannot secure them then destroy them.

    That should give him a new front to worry about. 

     


    They have waited too long to do anything in this case

    Yes. But from all I read, I am suspecting "they" may not do it, see above. Been reading some stuff on the military (including some of what you posted|) and that has also influenced me. Lots of grumbling about being given impossible scenarios to plan for.  Suggesting that they are giving Obama stuff that basically says "well, here's what we could do, but it's likely it won't work." It just may be that he will continue to fight to be able to do something just to have that fight, the whole P.R. factor. There are so many variables in the international relations arena swelling up right now, it's like he hit a hornet's nest and he's got to see where the hornets settle before he can back down.

    I want to make it clear that I don't think is Obama 10-dimensional chess. Rather, I think he's been messing up real bad. But it's not necessarily the case that all bad is going to come of it. We just don't know. The whole world was gonna blow up in argument sooner or later, looking back the signs were clear.

    (Warning, black humor:: Hey, do we need a new world economic crisis to get everyone back on the same page, or what?devil)


    All bad is going to come of it.


    No good can come from arguing about what to do about Syria? That's what I was talking about. I don't think a whole lot of good came from not talking about it for the last two years.

    By the way (to everyone on thread,) it should be noted that despite media spin, it's not true that everyone at G-20 came out against intervention, it's just that it broke out in unusual ways. From The Guardian:

    [....] In a minor diplomatic advance for Obama, 11 of the G20 nations signed a joint statement at the end of the two-day summit calling for "a strong international response to a grave violation of the world's rules" in response to last month's chemical weapons attack in Ghouta, east of the Syrian capital, Damascus.

    The signatories, including the UK, the US and France, said evidence "points clearly to the Syrian government being responsible for the attack which is part of a pattern of chemical weapons use by the regime" and warned it would not be possible to achieve a UN consensus on action.

    The signatories also "recognise that the UN security council remains paralysed, as it has been for two and a half years. The world cannot wait for endless failed processes that can only lead to suffering in Syria. We support efforts by the US and other countries to reinforce the prohibition on the use of chemical weapons."

    The painfully constructed wording stops short of explicit support for a punitive, but limited, military strike by the US. Yet the statement represents more international sympathy than seemed likely at the summit's outset. Other signatories included Australia, Canada, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Spain and Turkey – a coalition that may sway some US congressmen weighing up whether to defy domestic America opinion and back military strikes. A Downing Street source claimed the statement "backs US efforts and the American president has clearly set out his intended military response".

    Russia, China, South Africa, Indonesia, Argentina and Brazil were among those that refused to sign. But it was the absence of German chancellor Angela Merkel's signature that was the most frustrating – a result deemed to be a blow to the Franco-German alliance [.....]


    I want to take a minute to give you kudos, Michael, for such a fine essay on this. More of this type of thing is needed on the internet to counter all the agitprop.  You have a real knack for writing about such stuff in a style that "just regular folks"could appreciate; thoughtfulness, it's a way underestimated thing in a period when obsessive-compulsive ranting on favorite memes still seem to rule. Extra added bonus: your big heart comes through loud and strong, not a whisper or hint of ulterior motives.


    I couldn't agree more. It's a very well reasoned and very well written piece.


    Thanks, double A.  I am working on my own rant impulse.


    You're doing very well at that. (I dunno if the wrassler persona fits so well anymore, though.surprise)


    I like this article alot, Mike, and truly respect your effort to walk between the middle on this subject.

    However, alot of the negatives didn't get mentioned and few on this website have mentioned them, such as the relationship with Russia. There is the largest military base outside of the former Soviet Union there and Russia is justifying the presence of all these warships as a way of allowing Russian military personnel to escape when a US airstrike occurs.

    This, like all military actions in that region, will result in more resentment and more violence, not less. Almost all of our interventions in the Middle East, from removing Iran's democratically elected leader and installing the Shah in the 1950s all the way to Iraq in 2003, have had horrible consequences. It is very strange that people think this will be different.

     

     


    Elaborate a little for me about the implications of this.  Are we using Syria to poke at Russia?  Is Russia just doing in Syria what we do all over the world where we have strategic bases?  To what extent do you consider Russia and the U.S. rivals and to what extent partners?


    It's becoming increasingly clear that nothing is going to happen until the U.N. report comes in (as well as U.S. Congress voting) and the U.N. will surely also go through the steps of a meeting and a vote on what to do about the report:

    Syrian chemical weapons attack a war crime, says EU
    European Union foreign chief Catherine Ashton says strong response is essential to make clear there is no impunity

    Staff and agencies, theguardian.com, 7 September 2013

    The European Union has called a chemical weapons attack in Damascus a crime against humanity and says it was probably carried out by the Syrian government.

    Following a meeting with the US secretary of state, John Kerry, EU foreign ministers said that any punitive military attack should not be carried out until the delivery of a report by United Nations inspectors.

    Catherine Ashton, the EU's representative for foreign affairs issued a statement on Saturday calling the chemical attack a "blatant violation of international law, a war crime and a crime against humanity" [....]

    And Francois Hollande said on Friday (from NYTimes' Obama Falls Short on Wider Backing for Syria Attack):

    “We’re now going to wait for the decision by Congress,” Mr. Hollande said, “then the inspectors’ report.”

    That means plenty more time for diplomacy, lobbying, actors pressuring other actors and actors coming up with alternate suggestions.

    I would like to point out that there's no way any of this would have happened without the U.S. administration continuing to make aggressive threats.

    I am increasingly convinced that we are dealing with the same old community organizer "make me do it" Obama. He was uncomfortable with it at first, as many have pointed out even to the point of ridicule, then he decided (freaking out his main staff in the process) that he was going to make it another "make me do it":

    Photos Tell a Tale of Anguished Deliberations
    By Mark Landler, New York Times, September 6, 2013

    Kerry drew the short straw and has to be the one who has to continue to play the most aggressive role in the Kabuki theater of U.S. threats. (he spews talking points over and over, the one about Obama having the power to do the bombing without approval but more so the one that stands out is: no boots on the ground, I mean it now, zero boots, did I say no boots....when Fineman points out to him that in the Senate resolution it just says no combat troops, not no boots,he replies There will be no American forces on the ground for any purpose. When Fineman replies Well, why does it say "for combat operations"? he answers I have no idea !)

    While Obama does the community organizer holding a prosecutor vs. defense attorney advocate thing with Putin at the G 20:

    Even Putin admitted it (from NYTimes' Obama Falls Short on Wider Backing for Syria Attack):

    “We hear each other and understand the arguments,” Mr. Putin said. “We simply don’t agree with them. I don’t agree with his arguments and he doesn’t agree with mine, but we hear and try to analyze.”


    Just found the more sophisticated form of the Kerry talking points here, "a senior State Department official" talking to Michael Gordon @ NYTimes. Gordon says

    The official introduced some of the arguments American officials are expected to make to their European counterparts during Mr. Kerry’s four-day trip. He asserted that the failure to act militarily presented graver risks than a limited military intervention.

    The points were:

     ‘I don’t expect huge, huge change on the day after on the ground,” said the official, who is traveling with Secretary of State John Kerry to a meeting here with European Union foreign ministers on the Middle East.

    “That grinding war of attrition will continue and the regime’s manpower shortages will continue to grow, but I would not expect a breakthrough on the ground.” [....]

     “We have been very explicit to the Syrian opposition that any military action that we might take in response to the chemical weapons attack is going to be limited and very focused solely on re-establishing the deterrence,” said the official, who requested anonymity as per diplomatic protocol.

    “Do they all welcome that?” he said. “No, some would like us to do more than that. They will be disappointed, therefore.”

    Even if the strikes are somewhat limited, the official asserted, they would discourage the Assad government from again using chemical weapons and that, in any case, the condition of Syrian forces would weaken over time.

    But he suggested that the push to improve the rebels’ fortunes on the battlefield, and ultimately foster the condition for a possible political settlement, would depend more on increasing efforts to arm the opposition and improve its ability to govern the area it has captured.

     Even if the strikes are somewhat limited, the official asserted, they would discourage the Assad government from again using chemical weapons and that, in any case, the condition of Syrian forces would weaken over time.

    But he suggested that the push to improve the rebels’ fortunes on the battlefield, and ultimately foster the condition for a possible political settlement, would depend more on increasing efforts to arm the opposition and improve its ability to govern the area it has captured. [...]


    That people are making so much about Kerry saying that Obama can act even if Congress refuses to authorize is so theatrical.  As you say, this is Kerry's role -- play the activist hard ass.  But it is also, in light of everything we have lived through post Viet Nam, undoubtedly true. If Congress says no, I doubt that Obama will actually act.  But does he have the legal authority to launch limited strikes from afar?  I don't think that anybody doubts that he does.


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