Doctor Cleveland's picture

    The Fire This Time

    There is one truth that we need to face today, after the grand jury's decision in Ferguson. And that truth is simple. No one can live like this.

    No one can live with an arrangement where their sons can be killed with impunity. No one can make their peace with that. No one can accept that. No one can live like this.

    You cannot tell someone, "Look, some things are better for you than they have been. And other things are not so bad. Your son may go out for a walk one day and never come home, because he has been shot in the street: even if he is unarmed, even if he is no danger. But other than that one thing life is good." You cannot say that. And that is why people try to say it without putting it in exactly those words. But that is not something you can ask of anyone.

    Calling for peace in the aftermath is an insult. There is no peace. If some people are allowed to be shot dead and others are allowed to get away with that, then there is no peace. There is no public safety, because not all of the public are safe. The old saying "No justice, no peace," is relevant here, but it's even starker than that. No peace, no peace.

    Pretending that this is not about race does not help. No one would defend a Darren Wilson if they did not think it was about race, because no one would defend Darren Wilson if they really thought he was equally likely to kill their own son or grandson or nephew. If it weren't about race, Darren Wilson would already be under the jail. I do not want to live in a country where the police shoot unarmed teenagers dead. That they only kill unarmed teenagers from a specific ethnic group does not make it better. No one can live like this.

    Rationalizing every crime, blaming the victim, does not help. It adds insult to injury. Unarmed teenagers can be shot dead in the street, and the killer will get away with it. Then, to comfort themselves, many people will defame the murdered boy. That is an act of aggression. Killing someone and then claiming it was their own fault does not make it better. It makes it worse. No one can live with that.

    Forget the fire next time. Think about the fire this time. No one can live with a system that murders their sons without bothering much for a reason. No one can accept a system that allows that. There can be no peace, no justice, in our country unless that peace and justice extends to all alike. Economic inequality is cruel. Racial inequality is unjust. But inequality in matters of life and death is unbearable. No one will bear it, because no one can. Darren Wilson didn't just kill one unarmed man. He put yet another bullet in the body of the American Way.


    One of the more over the top 'incendiary' opinions on this case.

    "More than half a dozen black witnesses" say Brown did charge the cop, apparently too afraid to say so on national TV, but testified so to the Grand Jury, which proceedings of are secret. There was blood from Brown on the gun, and evidence he was in close range.

    Bad police work is not always about race, it's about unskilled cops, stupid cops, poor management of cops and voters who don't bother to vote, or election of leaders who don't give a crap about bad cops, minority kids, or the mentally ill.

    The Supreme Court has ruled a cop "must believe" their life is in danger to use deadly force. It doesn't say 'a reasonably competent cop would have believed". Unprofessional or bad judgment by a cop does not exclude that legal loophole. Indicting cops for any person they shoot or kill when on duty is extremely rare.

    Few in many towns like Ferguson bother to vote for their city or county leadership to make it better and more responsive.

    No indictment cases from other parts of nation:

    White woman dies in River Kwai jail hotbox in Arizona.

    Hispanic veteran with mental health issues beaten to death on video by Arizona cops.

    White woman dies in diabetic coma in jail when jail had her medical history on file.

    White homeless man shot to death, in back, on video by Albuquerque cops.

    Twelve year old boy shot to death in Cleveland with toy gun. Two days ago.

    Man shot to death in Wal-Mart with an air rifle he was buying at Walmart-Mart.

    Man selling loose cigarettes in New York choked to death by cops.

    No one can live like this.

    It's not Mayberry RFD out there. We had a score or more little kids wiped out in Connecticut, and the GOP blocked background checks. If you want effective government look elsewhere from where the GOP is in control.

    First, let's deal with your closing argument. The fact that White people experience death at the hands of police does not excuse Black people dying at the hands of police. Those deaths are inexcusable. You really can't be arguing that the baseline should be sanctioning murder by police.

    No one argues the close range gunshot would at close range in the car. How far away was Brown when the final shots were fired?

    Now to Ferguson in particular, there have been police killings in other cities without accompanying riots. In fact, a Black man was killed in St Louis just after the Brown shooting. No riots. A twelve year old with a toy gun was shot in Cleveland. No riots. Why is Ferguson so pathetic? There is distrust of police by the Black community in most cities, but no riots.the Black community did not trust the prosecutor and he lived up to their low expectations. He argued the case from the position of a defense attorney for the police officer. He has a zero indictment record on police involved shootings. Lawyers question his handling of the case and his embarrassing press conference 

    The prosecutor said that all the witnesses who said that Michael Brown charged at Wilson were African-American. This is a lie.

    Ferguson is a former sundown town that transformed into a city that got a huge chunk of its revenue by police targeting the Black community. The Governor, mayor, police chief and prosecutor embarrassed themselves.

    If you think Ferguson is an outlier on Black mistrust of the legal system, you should be aware that when it comes to issues of race, we know that there will be a predictable 5-4 split on the Supreme Court. The gutting of the Civil Rights Act and the blind eye to gerrymandering does not make SCOTUS a trusted institution.

    Here is a link for the court costs used to crush the poor in Ferguson

    Here is one analysis of the prosecutor's bizarre news conference

    The SCOTUS 'deadly force' ruling happens to be current law of the land and has been for decades.

    People should be aware of the law relating to deadly force, while also keeping in mind that the cop that stops you may be an power mad brute, an idiot, or a competent public servant. 

    You don't get to choose them when you get stopped.

    No matter what kind of cop they are you should not hit them in the face, as Brown apparently did, see the Grand Jury report released today online. Note the witness names are not being released to protect them from violence from the pro-Michael Brown crowd.

    Gerrymandering has nothing to do with the voting statistics I linked above on Ferguson turnout (they have one Black council member).

    I have mistrust of the legal system so I am not surprised Blacks in Ferguson do also.

    I don't think burning up cars and businesses is likely to move Ferguson, St. Louis County or the nation in the direction we need to go. It says to many voters, towns like this are full of hoodlums and we need 'tough Republicans' to keep the peace, or just 'buy guns'.

    This is my last comment on the incident in Ferguson.

    I would recommend less opinions and more looking at facts


    You can hurl insults and run. The fact is that the Missouri statue is lax compared to the the SCOTUS ruling.Missouri does not comply with the law of the land.

    Regarding violence, I pointed out that there had been no riots after other killings by police in other cities. It is reasonable to ask what makes Ferguson different. To be honest, the general public in Missouri would not take notice and change laws if the crowds were well-behaved. Note that Stand Your Ground is still law in Florida after the death of Trayvon Martin. The Black citizens of Ferguson don't have any reason to believe better behavior leads to a better legal outcome.

    The response of the Democrat who is the current Governor is no different than the response of a "tough Republican". The Governor let a prosecutor who was not trusted by the Black community stay on the case. Bring in a Republican and there will be a continuation of current practice. Poor Blacks in Ferguson realize that being on good behavior will not protect them.

    Here is Darren Wilson violating the First Amendment rights of a Ferguson resident months before the shooting of Michael Brown

    Just another day in paradise.

    Edit to add:

    It seems your conclusion is that there is a police state and we should just comply


    Your point that the Missouri statue is lax compared to the the SCOTUS ruling strengthens NCD's observation that the law as it stands gives a lot of discretion to enforcers of the law. There is nothing in what he said that suggests that he thinks that is a good thing.

    I understand that the interchange between you and him involves other arguments than this particular element and I won't try to be the arbiter between them. But your "Edit to add" regarding his willingness to comply with a police state is galling to me. It is an ad hominem device.

    Institutional racism obviously has a lot to do with what went down and is going down. Many people can agree that is the case without agreeing to other things. How do we get to the baseline Doc Cleveland is proposing?

    What happened regarding the initial instruction to the jury was a travesty. The Supreme Court ruled on what was the law of the land. The initial instruction given to the jury was an Unconstitutional law. Later during deliberations the Constitutional law instruction was given to the Grand Jury. The prosecutor's office originally gave the jury an illegal instruction. So, no the outdated Missouri law does not strengthen any case, it makes the prosecutor's office look at best incompetent or at worse attempting to influence the jury to find in favor of Darren Wilson.

    How do you view the jury receiving incorrect instructions regarding self defense claims regarding a police officer firing on a fleeing subject?

    Regarding how we get to justice, I think the protests makes it more likely that the Governor of Missouri and Mayor of Ferguson work to change things. It is likely that the state legislature and local city council will have to be dragged by their feet to accept change. We are likely talking years for change to come.

    If there were no protests, there would be zero pressure for the Governor or Mayor to act.

    I am not claiming the Missouri law strengthens any case. I was merely observing that it supported a predisposition to support a police officer in this case. You just demonstrated how good a job applying a State law  could further certain interests in a particular judgment even if the program doesn't square with the present markers of constitutional law. The point made made by NCD is that the constitutional law itself has its own problems regarding these situations. I think he is right. The present standards do not satisfy the requirements of equal opportunity to the appeal of law.

    Your other questions remind me that the appeal system is about reviewing convictions.There doesn't seem to be any system set up to review botched indictments. The double jeopardy thing.

    Apart from this particular decision, there is a history of the Supreme Court stepping in and overturning State laws when they developed into cases that required a decision to be overturned. Whatever one might think of the right or wrong of the decision, our system doesn't seem to be set up to address it as such.

    But recognizing the limitation doesn't mean we are without means to address the problem in other ways.

    I think that finding other options is an easy suggestion from the outside. What stands out to me is that their have been other police shootings of unarmed men followed by protests without violence. In the case of Ferguson with a seemingly incompetent police chief, a prosecutor who acts like a defense attorney, a militarized police force, and a legal system that used court charges against poor people to fill the city's coffers, why would we expect the citizens to behave differently?

    Do you really believe that if the citizens had "behaved themselves" and there was no national attention that Ferguson would have changed. The prosecutor rigged the Grand Jury. Darren Wilson told an unbelievable story without facing cross-examination. The Governor was MIA until he brought in the police troops. Exactly where were the citizens supposed to go to get justice?

    Whether there was violence during the protests or the protesters were angelic, the idea that the police chief, Mayor, or Governor was going to make a swift response to underlying issues was virtually nil. The Ferguson protests sparked national protests. I guess I see the poor prospects of justice in Ferguson sparking a national debate. The violence in Ferguson was because the citizens were ignored. Being well behaved did not prevent the abuses in the Justice system in the city.

    Trayvon Martin was killed and his killer went free. No riots after the trial even though there was concern about how that trial was conducted. To me if there is pathology in the citizens of Ferguson, there is equal pathology in the local government and police force.

    By saying "other means" I wasn't commenting on the violence. I neither agree that it was as necessary as you make out nor condemn it as a crime. My intention in following this point up is to try and separate what is lacking in the law as it stands from the other elements that influenced the decision.

    Given what you have seen of the Missouri Governor, the local Mayor, and the Ferguson police chief, what is your solution to effect change in the legal system in Ferguson?

    or just 'buy guns'.

    Ferguson is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Civil order is breaking down, just as foretold.

    Be afraid ... Be very afraid...




    Be afraid ... Be very afraid...

    "Sup dawg" ?

    My my my ... Hypocrite!

    How very, very "Christ-Like" of you...

    Where do ya' hide your horns?



    Knowing the law and doing the law are two different things .

    Of course you  saw another opportunity to make a personal attack against me rather than see a poor defenseless duck in a bad way and he probably wondering, what do I do now, who will protect me? 

    Despite your foolish ridicule, of those who believe in self-survival. If people choose to remain defenseless, while wild / animalistic people roam around looking for prey, that is a fools choice. 

    What good are you in defense of your community or your family in a crisis moment, when marauding gangs, looking to hurt others, raping and pillaging, burning down your home and suddenly you realize; help is not on the way?

    "911":  "Please hold for the next available operator" "expected wait time 30 minutes"  

    "If this is an emergency, hide under the bed" 

    You don't know... diddly-squat...



    Resistance is afraid of his shadow

    Protests in Ferguson are the end of the world

    Ebola is the end of the world

    Be afraid be Wery Wery afraid

    Shows how much you know about it

    No; they are not the end of the world,  they are signs intended for spiritual people to discern the end is near. 

    Just as an intelligent person and farmers can discern, by the observing the sky; with it's dark ominous clouds,with lightening and thunder, that a storm is approaching and prepares for it. 

    The fool doesn't discern anything. and gets caught in the storm. 

    The fool doesn't discern anything. and gets caught in the storm

    Stop criticizing yourself

    That's my job

    I must say  you do a heck of a job. 

    Yes, bad police work and what seems like an increase in police abuse of power affects all races. But shit flows down hill. Virtually every problem we face as a society affects minorities more than whites.

    Second, after the non violent protests in the King era we liberals have embraced the mistaken notion that violence in unnecessary and never works. This view ignores the history of the labor movement that gave us most of the worker protections we now take for granted. Sometimes the only message those in power understand is that the oppressed are willing to  stand on the line in the face of machine guns and fight back. Sometimes government will not respond until they realize that the rage has reached the boil over point.

    Furthermore I believe part of King's success was the realization of those with power that if they didn't find some accommodation with King there were others in the wings with a different more violent plan to force change. The riots at that time helped convince government to compromise with King.

    I know many, if not most, here will disagree with me, but I don't take any option off the table. I think the riots in Ferguson are sending a powerful message to those in power and that's a good thing.

    I agree.  We are going to see more of it too.  The political landscape hasn't changed so I am afraid we are going to see more protests across the country. I know Florida is a tinder box ready to go off. 

    Malcolm X was sitting in the wings if MLK Jr. was rejected

    There were riots during the King era, including Watts in August 1965. Jesse Jackson had to remind CNN news reader Don Lemon of this fact last night.

    (I should note that I use DISH. I did not realize that DISH and Turner Broadcasting had a dispute and CNN was not available for a period time. I don't watch CNN so I was oblivious to its absence until I decided to record Soledad O'Brien special on police and Black community that aired last week. I had a friend record the episode for me.

    Don Lemon is the same doofus who asked Janice Dickinson why she did not think to bite Bill Cosby's penis during her rape. Lemon does not appear to be very bright.

    He forgot the Hough riot in Cleveland.  There were also smaller ones across the country. The riots across the country went on for several summers. They mostly happened in the hot summer months. Ferguson is mild compared to what happened then with large buildings on fire. Whole city blocks were destroyed. In the Hough riot there were collateral deaths and many injuries and most of them was just people and children that lived there and got caught in the cross fire. It went on for a week and then at the end of the summer the Grand Jury blamed the Communist for whipping up trouble.  Carl Stokes a black leader and politician called the findings a bunch of crap. The major cause was extreme poverty and  racism.  The community didn't trust the police because of abusive tactics and the over reaction of the police.  I think the Communist party did take credit for all the riots across the country but their real influence is debatable. 

    History repeats itself. 

    What do you expect we have had a constant increase of dog whistles and political moves to hurt minority populations? People do resort to pitch fork and torches. 


    When the community reacts to injustice, the leadership always talks about respectability. The poor should pull up their pants and be responsible. The community has to deal with crime in their neighborhoods before society can be expected to deal with poverty and joblessness. This nonsense was also true during lynching. African-American leaders emphasized respectability during the early days of lynching. Even Ida B Wells was a respectability advocate until two of her respectable male friends were lynched. She then realized that lynching was terrorism and became the great anti-lynching advocate that is her legacy.

    Society will not respect Black Ferguson citizens if they wear suits and ties or if their pants are low-slung. This prosecutor acted like a defense attorney. Seasoned lawyers are puzzled by his conduct of the trial. He felt free to do this in public. Minority citizens know that the system is rigged. Parents known that purchase of cars and homes is rigged against them legally. Children and teens know the Justice system is rigged against them legally. People are sick and tired of being sick and tired. The financial status of the city of Ferguson will collapse if the city cannot continue to collect onerous court fees from its poor citizens.

    I remember the Hough area tax base collapsed after the riots.  One of the problems was poor quality housing and outside land lords.  The federal authorities got after Cleveland about lax code enforcement because they did a report that the area had the worst slums in the country.  Properties were condemned and land lords fined.  Urban renewal dollars built public housing and people were moved out of Hough.  It looked like Detroit does now, for years with empty lots and decaying buildings. It was decades before the area came back with people moving in. 

    The state and country will have to distribute tax money more fairly.  The federal government has to come in and point out the corruption.  Then take the corruption to court to force changes. That is what happened in a lot of places in the 1960's.  This takes time. It was several years after the riots before land lords was fined and properties condemned and enough public housing was being built. 

    The question is will the federal government step in and force changes?  We can see that the state and county officials are not going to be fair.  Local politics favor abuse.

    The state and country will have to distribute tax money more fairly.

    Whose tax money is going to be distributed? 

    Taxpayer dollar: 1 penny to the tax payer and 99 cents to the Non - taxpayer?

    Taxpayer: " You wouldn't mind if I just stay home from work"? 

    Non Taxpayer  "Hell no!  get back to work slave".

    Violence, lingering on the outside, often backed nonviolence during the civil-rights movement. "We could go into meetings and say, 'Well, either deal with us or you will have Malcolm X coming into here,'" said SNCC organizer Gloria Richardson. "They would get just hysterical. The police chief would say, 'Oh no!'"

    My thoughts at the time; The establishment needed to pacify the black movement or the draft was in danger. 

    Some of the most powerful in Washington never wanted to support the Great Society, and if it hadn't been for the Vietnam War, those opposed to the Great Society, would have gone after the disrupters of order.

    But how do you make the charge of insurrection against a group who make up the draftees needed to fight the Vietnam War?  

    Give some crumbs to the disgruntled in order to pacify. 

    IMO  Had we not been involved in Viet Nam, the establishment, without hesitatation would have had their war, against what they considered agitators/disrupters of order.  

    One of the greatest casualties of the war in Vietnam is the Great Society... shot down on the battlefield of Vietnam.  Martin Luther King, Jr.

    I think the riots in Ferguson are sending a powerful message to those in power and that's a good thing.

    Those in power are playing reverse psychology?

    1st:  Don't provide sufficient or adequate protection on the first Night.

    Let the protestors burn down the town and let the talking heads accuse the governor of inadequate protection.  

    Subliminally; The message to be sent out to those in power, crack down or you'll have a repeat of Ferguson. 

    Fifteen burned structures is a small price to pay, when compared to what is gained.

    Who will question the use of an iron fist the next time, when people are reminded of Ferguson and what happens when measures are not taken.

    Friends who tried to tell the protestors SHUT UP,  go home; opportunists will high jack the protests;  THEY  had the sense of what is coming in the days ahead. when the Republicans control the purse.

    Republicans who'll say  "Why give more money towards inner city development, the idiots will just burn it down" 




    Exodus 20:12-17

    12 n“Honor your father and your mother, othat your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

    13 p“You shall not murder.1

    14 q“You shall not commit adultery.

    15 r“You shall not steal.

    16 s“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

    17 t“You shall not covet uyour neighbor's house; vyou shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.”

    We are in agreement., Darren Wilson should not have murdered Michael Brown


    I just came across your blog randomly and the first piece I read was this post from 2011:

    After reading that post...and then this most recent post above, I just need to ask, specifically about where the intersection is for a post like this, and the post I linked to. Are things worse now, with black teenagers/young men being shot and police not being punished, than they were during the 60's and 70's? If not, and during that time, MLK and other Civil Rights leaders were able to achieve momentum of such significance, without resorting to violence, then what are the people of today supposed to do? 

    I ask this because I legitimately don't know the answer. I have engaged people who fall on opposite ends of this particular issue, from white people in denial of any wrong doing to black people advocating for more violence as a response, and I don't feel like I have any clear answers or understanding of where we go from here, as a society. 

    In the 1960s, there were pictures of fire-hoses and police dogs attacking children. These pictures were shocking. We now have video of a guy with a toy gun sold by WalMart being murdered by police and it's ho-hum. The wannabe Marine who called 911 is a hero. Thad fact the customers were walking past the guy with the toy gun unafraid did not prevent the murder. The public is no longer shocked, even when there is a death.

    A twelve year old with a toy gun is gunned down in a place where people were not running away from him as they would from a threat. He is murder by police and its "Whoops!".

    A Black guy pulls into a service station where a police officer pulls up behind to cite him for a seat belt violation. He took his belt off to exit the car to fill his tank. When the driver tried to get his ID as instructed by the police officer, he is shot. The response of the man who was shot was to apologize to the police officer.

    Welcome to the police state. Comply or die. The public accepts the militarization of the local police force and does not forcefully condemn police overreaction. 

    For those waiting for the police state to come with the NSA, you are missing what is happening in front of your eyes.

    Because police kill whether you are law-abiding or an unarmed suspect, you have to object to all cases of police abuse. If they kill the suspect without cause, they will feel free to kill you.



    Thank you for your comment, Matt. 

    The intent of this post is not to justify violence. I am still, always, concerned about preserving civil peace. But blaming the rioters is too cheap and easy, and lets other culprits off the hook.

    The point of my post is that repeated violence against unarmed men, and then the justification of that violence, destroys the social contract that keeps us all safe. You can't talk about peace when you're letting unarmed people be killed. That itself is a violation of peace.

    What the authorities in Ferguson have done is tell a large chunk of America that the social contract doesn't cover them. They do not have the protection of the law. How can you ask someone to obey the law when the law does not protect them? When the law is actually used to excuse the murder of their sons? How do you expect people to hold up their end of the social contract when you won't keep that contract with them?

    Would I prefer non-violent protests? Of course. Always. But as Dr. King himself said, "a riot is the language of the unheard." ( If you refuse to listen to even the most reasonable complaints, if you turn a deaf ear to their fears for their children's safety, people will do whatever they have to to make themselves heard. If you don't listen to anyone who doesn't riot, then you are one of the primary causes of the resulting riot.

    I would prefer that change be peaceful. But when you refuse to safeguard human life, people will bring change whatever way they have to.



    Doc, thanks for this.

    I am still reading Officer Wilson's testimony, but from what I understand, there was a struggle while Officer Wilson was still in the car. Officer Wilson was hit in the head, and felt his only option was to use his gun as he did not carry a tazer and his mace was on his other side. That's how the two shots were fired from the car, as Brown grabbed for the gun. 

    So far, fair enough. But to leave the car after being hit in the head a couple of times and pursue a suspect who has already grabbed for your gun?  Is there a procedure that says that's a good idea? Because I think staying in your car would be a hell of a lot better idea, unless you're dealing with a suspect who is known to be highly dangerous and must be apprehended immediately in order to protect the public.

    It's worth noting that Officer Wilson had never seen Brown before--he wasn't pursuing someone who was known to him as a dangerous killer. He was pursuing someone who ran away after Wilson shot at him. 

    And yet, Wilson did pursue, after the initial fight, provoking another confrontation and eventually killing an unarmed man.

    If there's a procedure that says this is the right thing to do, that procedure needs to be changed. Michael Brown should be on trial for assaulting a police officer right now, not dead.

    That the Grand Jury couldn't even consider a 3rd-degree manslaughter charge is proof of how far we've come down the rabbit hole in which if a police officer does it, it must be ok.

    Thanks, very well written.  It is very hard to live this way. It is very hard to raise children under this system.  It is going on in more communities then people realize.  Keep in mind that a large group of children today is growing up in this. 

    McCulloch, the defense attorney prosecutor did not cross examine Darren Wilson. Wilson's story is not believable. The public has no reason to believe that justice was served.

    They left Michael's Brown's body on the ground for four hours and still managed to do no serious analysis of the shooting according to grand jury information

    We remind ourselves that the 4 NYPD officers who murdered Amadou Diallo, an unarmed African immigrant, with 41 shots were acquitted on all charges.

    Maybe segregation is the answer? The Blacks don't trust the white cops and some whites don't trust the blacks.

    Maybe there will never be peace, when theft, vandalism and innocent folks livelihoods are burned. destroyed and is excused by some as necessary for peace?  

    Peace for thee; but none for me? 

    Maybe charge a fee for protesting and the money collected would go for the damages created by the incitement. instead of Taxpayers  and the insurance companies picking up the tab for the destruction. 

    Place the guard and the police outside the city and let the  looters  undocumented shoppers have at it?  Call it prosecutorial discretion? 

    I wonder if the store owner, who was assaulted by M Brown, had been seriously hurt  and his supporters would have demanded someone do something to stop these crimes and what if the authorities took the position, we can't for fear their might be a confrontation and the thieves supporters would cry racism? 

    Do you really believe there would be peace for all or just some? 

    Have you ever considered; had the call for the police, not have been ever been initiated because of a theft there might not have been a deadly confrontation in the first place in this incidence  

    It's one thing to speak up against police racism, but using a thief to make your point, undermines your call for law/order and justice.

    Some groups might sympathize with thieves but not the majority of the people.  

    Many will remember M Brown, but for different reasons.  

    A thief who confronted the police and the supporters of a thief burned down a town. 

    In the future; leave the supporters of the thief fend for themselves,what cop needs the hassle?

    Hiring more black officers to work the black neighborhoods might save your towns? Hope you have a good tax base? 

    Go into any neighborhood you better know the law so you don't violate them. Like thou shall not steal. Most folks don't take kindly to thieves or those who violate their laws and they want the police to intervene and confront lawbreakers. 

    But who in America doesn't know that? 

    Michael Brown was told go get out of the street, not to put his hands up because he was thought to be a thief. The idea that arguing that an unarmed man should not have been killed is easy. The same people who argue that supporting a thief is bad form would likely argue that a kid with Skittles and a can of ice tea was a threat. The same people would argue that a teen in a van playing loud music was armed. The point is that you argue for the unarmed thief because people will also feel free to shot regular citizens who are unarmed.

    NYPD fired 41 shots at unarmed Amadou Diallo who tried to show his wallet. The 4 officers were acquitted. The NYPD learned nothing from the experience and now we have the choke hold death of Eric Garner. Note that there is no evidence that Garner was doing anything illegal at the time of his death. Respectability and not breaking any law does not save your life. The police consider Blacks a threat and give license to hotheads to consider Blacks a threat.

    Regarding segregation. You segregate first. There are a significant number of Black families with family histories in the United States that go back longer than many Caucasion families. Why would we decide that there are areas where we don't belong.

    Blacks will argue for equal treatment under the law. Let's not pretend that if Blacks met some theoretical responsibility criteria, there issues would be addressed. In fact some people argue that Blacks who argue for their rights are saying "Our way or the highway" rather than doing the identical political arguments for issues as Whites. Some people have argued that because Blacks refuse to remain silent on issues, Democrats have lost power. Certain people have argued that Blacks should know the appropriate time and place to argue for their issues. For some people this time is never. That leads some people to argue for segregation.

    Thank you...

    My hat is off to you for the time you put in attempting to argue with a blank slate.

    BTW... You may wish to correct the first sentence.

    Michael Brown was told to get out of the street.

    I see you've edited it.



    My work day is done. I'm bored its a good distraction.

    Your work is done?

    You've contributed your efforts to the powerful, stirring up contentions amongst the various groups; turning one against the other in a race war; rather than staying focused, on the most important war facing all races, an economic war?.

    Not even caring about the backlash by the establishment, in retaliation against the working class poor, who'll be made to suffer more, when those in power conclude, "didn't these protestors; who burned down their own inner city developments / towns, didn't they have jobs they had to go to? 

    "Give them help and they turn against the hand that feeds them"? 

    Let them build bricks without straw. 

    Resistance, your arguments are problematic

    You state that Black slaves should be content and serve their masters with joy. Yet, in the next breath you Image White workers on an auction block and rail against being a slave to the corporations.Is slavery good for one and bad for the other? 

    You rail about the government overstepping its bounds, yet you have no problem when a police officer kills an unarmed man and even suggest that it doesn't matter if the unarmed man was fleeing.

    When unarmed teens are shot, you side with the shooter. Yet you talk about my arguments dividing the races.

    Eric Bonhoffer was a CINO for urging Christians to fight Hitler. Martin Luther King Jr. was a CINO for fighting Jim Crow. Yet you make atheist Eugene Debs a hero.Really?

    You sit in fear of what the Establishment will do if Blacks protest. The Establishment in Ferguson uses the legal system to steal from and enslave the local Black community and it goes unnoticed by you. 

    In case you missed in Darren Wilson changed his testimony. Wilson was able to tell his version of events of the shooting without cross-examination by the prosecutors. Google "Darren Wilson testimony" and look for analysis of the holes in what he said. The Local prosecutor used a. Grand Jury technique that is virtually unheard of by dumping a bunch of factoids with organized presentation. It is not his standard procedure. There was government malfeasance and you missed it. The local community is objecting because the government abused its power. Local defense lawyers would leap for the change to have their clients presented to a Grand Jury under similar circumstances because their clients would go free. The prosecutor said the case was difficult because there was conflicting evidence.Duh. Welcome to why there are trials.

    Your arguments on race make no sense. Whenever a gun is used against an unarmed Black teen, you run to the defense of the shooter.

    Your arguments serve as a toady to those in power.

    Stick with the subject.

    Racial Tensions in Ferguson will not lead to peace.

    As I understand it, the Grand Jury had the opportunity to cross examine Wilson, but of course your bias assumes the jury members were uneducated. 

    Now because you couldn't have a show trial, the Grand Jurors became players in some grand conspiracy of yours? 

    Maybe the community leaders, decided to exercise "prosecutorial discretion" in order to prevent another Jodi Arias style show trial expenditure already costing millions of dollars brought by the prosecution.  

    !2 jurors heard the case, how many more jurors must be sworn in, before they give you the verdict YOU want  

    Does the County have that much money to spend on a case of a policeman, who makes contact with a thief, who also assaulted a store clerk.

    Just because you don't like the verdict, we're all supposed to believe a person who would assault another over cigars, would in no way resist arrest? 

    A father who states  Burn the B... down, Makes me think, the apple didn't fall far from the tree, when it comes to respecting the lawful authority. 

    You want to have a dialog about black.white,red yellow and brown youths; address the issue of youths who don't respect any authority Parental or Governmental.

    You brought up segregation. You brought up race. Now you pretend you did not.You stick to your statement.

    As I expected, you dodge issues of your bias, 

    You also dodge the unusual technique used by the prosecutor, can you explain why lawyers who have tried cases against the prosecutor say they have never seen him do this. The jury was originally given the wrong set of instructions the prosecutor acted as Wilson's defense attorney. The jury was rigged.

    If the stepfather is on trial now, should we not ask about discrepancies in Darren Wilson's testimony? Wilson was trained originally by a police department that was disbanded because of misconduct. Did he revert to poor training? We see Wilson on video abusing a citizen's first amendment rights.

    Your segregation comment exposes your bias.

    You worship atheist Eugene Debs, if your arguments are to be believed.

    What real solution is there when both sides have such contempt for one another? 

    You; someone with your suspicions and disposition,  going to teach them how to love one another? 

    Should we separate the fighting factions or just let them kill each other? 

    The jury was rigged

    Are you saying  "Its a conspiracy I tell ya;  a conspiracy"  

    Maybe you and the Twin Tower conspiracy forces or Benghazi conspiracy forces have more in common than originally thought?. 

    You worship atheist Eugene Debs 

    Hardly. I don't worship Debs, I just happen to believe his opinions about the political parties. 

    I have friends and we don't agree on all things; or does that idea also not register in your thought processing?  

    Debs is thoroughly knowledgeable about politics and the perverted clergy. The Churches corruption and meddling and influencing Kings and Presidents. 

    Debs was a labor leader, fighting for the American Labor Union.

    Jesus was a religious leader.

    What do I care, if Debs doesn't believe in Jesus's authority or his rightfulness to rule on the Davidic throne. He's wrong about that subject.

    I guess the concept of free thinking and making up ones own mind with as much information from other leaders as possible, is something foreign in the Borg  Obamabots collective and must be attacked?

    Whatever you say segregationist.

    You conveniently ignore the unusual nature of the Ferguson Grand jury. So yes, it does appear that the grand jury was rigged. What evidence to you have that the Grand Jury structure was normal? Do you believe that allowing Wilson to wash off blood evidence before testing was normal? Do you believe that the coroner not doing measurements of the distance between where Wilson said he stood when he shot and where Brown fell is normal? Of course it was not. You have been duped and all you have is jokes.

    Your arguments suggests that your bias blinds you to the odd behavior of the prosecutor.

    Whatever you say segregationist.


    I asked you for Earthly mans solution to the problem.

    Separate the factions or; let them kill each other?

    If you have a third choice lets hear it because dreaming about a workable solution wont work. 

    Rodney King Quotes –

    No Rodney they probably never will get along. There is too much hatred on both sides  

    Because its for certain, they won't listen to the Superior Authority (GOD who is impartial)  

    Maybe you can get then to listen to you. while they burn down the town, because they sure don't listen to anyone with Authority.

    A spiritual person knows, there is no Earthly solution to the difficult times we live in. 

    2 Timothy 3:1-5

    Matthew 24:12

    Can you point out where these massive killings were in the protests in Ferguson? Can yo point out where these massive clashes were in the 170 cities that held protest marches for Michael Brown?


    What real solution is there when both sides have such contempt for one another? 

    It's true that at least I feel utter contempt for most of the views you espouse here. The solution is one side will win and one side will lose. For many of the problems we're facing there is no common ground, I see no win win solution. In the end one side will win, one side will lose.

    What I find most interesting is that you profess to admire Debs. That period was the most violent years of the labor movement. Those who were fighting Debs made the same arguments about law and order that you're making now.

    That period was the most violent years of the labor movement.

    No doubt about it, but the blood had already been spilled and sacrificed  those many years ago.

    In the last couple of decades, most people in America have forgotten the sacrifice that was made.

    They'll buy the cheap imported goods, rather than the look for the label "Made in America" or "Union Made"  

    They'll vote for party leaders, who care more about profits over people but they wont say it outright  and their supporters, some members of the working class  Turning a deaf ear, to those who expose the truth, (DEBs) that the two wings Left (d) Right (R)  of the Capitalist vulture, are of the same same bird

    Nader tried a 100 years later to deliver the same message but was rejected by fools. 

    Gore recognized the fools would vote against their own self interest.

    The need for blood again, to be spilled, to preserve the gains made by those who had already sacrificed, wasn't necessary.

    But the fools in America are destroying the foundation already laid 

    The bloodshed and violence can be avoided, if the working class people would remember "Whose side they are on"    

    When NAFTA was first being debated, some of my Union friends, who decided to vote for the Union Busting Reagan, were telling us, labor will come back, once the working class gets tired.

    I said then, what I say now; just as Debs warned; as long as the people keep trusting the two capitalist parties, whose only solution is WIN for themselves and their rich friends and a NOT WIN  for labor.

     No!  Unions will not come back without sacrifice. Again 

    The sacrifice didn't need to be blood, only recognition of the Truth of what DEBS fought so hard to deliver, What Perot tried to deliver, What Gore recognized as the Truth,  People undercut the gains given to them by the previous generations( forefathers)  

    If the working class allows the manufacturing base to offshore and allows the leaders and their supporters to onshore labor,  you destroy what is left of Unions in America. You destroy the working classes clout 

    The sacrifice of blood during DEBS day, was for naught.

    Now if you want to compare todays racial struggle to the struggle of labor I can see some similarities.

    But not using someone many observers believe strong armed and robbed a store clerk and resisted arrest. as the Role model of fighting for the cause. Towns burning with chaos on the street,with Chants of "Remember Michael Brown,

    Unlike Martin Luther king whose death saddened most good and honest hearted people. 

    We choose not to put Michael Brown on the same pedestal as MLK. 

    MLK was a martyr, as was Debs. M Browns actions prior to the shooting incident were not honorable.

    Consistently inconsistent 

    MLK was a Christian in name only, now you consider him a martyr 


    One can be a martyr and not be a Christian.

    You don't understand that? 

    Is this how you reason things. 

    God is Love 

    Love is blind 

    Stevie wonder is blind 

    Rmrd : Stevie wonder must be God?

    Word salad,

    Blacks should have been content with slavery, but it is an outrage for Whites to be enslaved. Hypocrite.


    The devouring, inextinguishable fire, this time? 

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