MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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A FOUL VERDICT THAT DEPRESSES ME GREATLY
By Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 12:28pm |I guess there really are no open and shut cases any longer, if there ever were.
Not when the "victim/perp" is black and the defendant is white.
This reminded of a story TPM was running--but now seems to have disappeared --about rules against advertising cigarettes not applying to the black community.
Maybe the story had problems with it, so it was withdrawn. But it also left my mouth hanging wide open.
How racist and venal can you get...
Josh used to talk a lot about up-is-downism amongst conservatives. If it was raining outside, they'd say the sun was shining.
But now they are working full time on reversing the roles of victim and perpetrator. While the dead black kid would've been the victim unquestionably in years past, now he is recast as the aggressor, and the aggressor is recast as the victim.*
Taranto recently opined that if both the boy and girl were drunk who was to say which one did the raping. Didn't the boy need as much protection from the rapacious girl as the other way around. Well, there was a pretty convincing SVU episodes on this...
*I guess this requires serious qualification inasmuch as Emmett Till et al were constantly cast as perps when they were clearly victims. But now it seems this inverted logic has gone mainstream countrywide in places like the WSJ and the GOP.
URL:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/dunn-verdict-stand-your-ground-debate
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Comments
If there were one frickin bullet hole in the defendant's car....well, maybe.
I wrote about stand your damn ground a year or two ago.
If the defendant had been Black and the victim White?
No frickin way!
by Richard Day on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 4:38pm
Yeah. If the kid had had a gun, wouldn't he have shot back when the guy started firing? I suppose the guy couldn't have killed him with his first bullet and put an end to that, but still...
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 9:12pm
Getting out of the car for what? Why? So he could whoop on Dunn, while someone points a pipe end out the window. Yelling and cursing”
To a man in fear, a 1 inch pipe, held to a shoulder, looks like the end of a shotgun? Or what difference he gets beat senseless with a metal pipe? Why should he wait to be a dead victim, to prove he had every right to defend himself? All this went down because he said turn down the music?
by Resistance on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 9:48pm
A one inch pipe never looks like a shotgun.
The man had no business carrying around a gun.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 10:27pm
This is looking down the barrel of a gun, Looks similar to 1 inch gas line maybe you're just quibbling, how about 3/4 inch? When you're the one looking down the barrel it appears bigger it could drop an elephant ? Hmmm maybe the legs to a camera tripod; like the one found in the vehicle were made up of pipe?
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 12:01am
How deceptively clever of you. That picture was taken about 2 inches from the camera. A gun would look like that if it was in your face 2 inches from your eye ball. It would look quite different if spotted in the back of a car from another parking space.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 12:37am
Nothing deceptive about it. Peter wrote it could NEVER look like a gun, TO HIM
Dunn may have seen things differently?
Unless you are blind; Take the test. We already know what it looks like two inches away; now walk back from your monitor and and see how many feet you can be away from the image and can still make out what could appear to be the business end of a gun . All the while someone is cursing and screaming at you "you're going to die"
Added, In my limited space I was 10 paces (30 feet) away and could still see the barrel of this gun.
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 7:00am
Living in your world, since a Black teen represents a threat, the best advice is for the Black teen to be armed and fire when someone who appears to be angry or frightened approaches. That way the teen can be alive to describe their fear.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 8:05am
There you go again, implying racism, an ugly baseless personal attack.
You just cant help yourself can you?
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 4:23pm
You brought up the magic gun and Dunn's fear. Black parents now have to instruct their children to live in a world with fearful, armed people? If you are going to be considered a thug, and are innocent isn't the best way to survive is learn to shot first?
If you are murdered and no weapon is found, the magic disappearing gun defense will be used. You might as well be carrying and ready to respond to a threat. Be the one alive to go to trial.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 4:34pm
The Dunn defense brought it up. A defense that might have led to the mistrial?.
I want the facts of the case, not some bias of yours (blacks cant get justice), clouding the picture.
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 4:37pm
Black parents see one child murdered after a lost fist-fight. The murderer goes on the have domestic violence issues. After a lost fist-fight, he is now able-bodied enough to want to box for money.
A second murderer sends racist letters from jail. He never tells the love of his life who was in the car with him that he saw a gun. The murderer leaves the scene. He imagines a gun.
Let's suppose both Zimmerman and Dunn are fearful. Black parents are fearful because they see two teens legally murdered. Isn't a rational response to teach the children to defend themselves? If guns are the sources of these deaths, shouldn't Black teens have the right to arm themselves for protection. Are Black teens not allowed to be fearful given the results of the trials? Do Blacks have the right to carry weapons to defend themselves from perceived threats?
Forming gun clubs seems a rational response.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 5:16pm
He's not going to disagree with this comment, ya know. He only recently prescribed guns as the solution for gays to protect themselves in Nigeria (there's plenty of other similar examples but that's the most recent.) For children too young to be able to handle firearms, I believe his suggestion in the past was armored backpacks, armored outerwear, that sort of thing....otherwise, it's always the prescription: everyone should get guns to protect themselves from prejudiced and crazy people and corrupt government and just anything bad in general....
by artappraiser on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 5:21pm
Everybody grab your shootin' irons
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 5:36pm
You forgot, I also encourage all families to take an NRA course in firearms safety.
Education and Training|Education and Training - NRA
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 5:39pm
So Black parents should instruct their children to be armed?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:02pm
Or get a big dog like Michael Vick did or any of the other gang bangers in the hood do?
Michael Vick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:14pm
Depends on the child.
Brooklyn group of black youths blocks white couple's car, bloody ...
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:23pm
You want me to take race out of the picture when I think of you, yet you post items that suggest Blacks use weapons not to defend themselves but create harm. Given number of a Whites in the country, I could easily post similar snippets about White criminals. you had the opportunity to simply state that Black youth had the right to use firearms to defend themselves and you failed to do so.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:33pm
You asked "So Black parents should instruct their children to be armed?"
To which I replied "Depends on the child".
Was it not you that brought up Black children in particular?
I sure wouldn’t suggest these “Black parents TO instruct
theirthese children to be armed.by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:47pm
See reply below
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 7:35pm
Yes, but firearms safety doesn't teach someone like Dunn not to shoot into a car with kids playing loud music--does it?
Rightly or wrongly, Dunn WANTED to shoot at Davis. He wanted to shoot at the car. He was using the gun in a "safe" manner; it's just that he was trying to hurt/kill someone with it.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think gun safety courses cover this point. Do they?
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 8:49pm
An armed society is a polite society....it works so well in Mexico.
Look, folks, let's just be glad that the topic of beheadings and Zetas hasn't come up because who knows how that could get spun....oops. Sorry, may bad...
What, after all, can be said about a guy who finds the kernel of good in someone shooting at a fleeing vehicle.
It must be the miraculous touch of the trigger, that suffuses the bearer with incandescent virtue, kinda' like a snake only different.
by jollyroger on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:21am
Jolly, I hereby render unto you the Dayly Comment of the Day Award for this here Dagblog Site, given to all of you from all of me.
This is the funniest comment I have read in a long, long time!
IT WORKS SO WELL IN MEXICO?
hahahahahahahha
by Richard Day on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:39am
I happen tot be resting in our good neighbor to the south and hopefully do not resemble that remark!
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:42am
Visit beautiful Chiapas, tender my compliments to El Subcomandante...
by jollyroger on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 1:22am
My son lived in Tuxtla Guttierez for a year. Chiapas is heaven.
by Bruce Levine on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 1:52am
Too cool! I had no idea that you actually had roots in Zapatististan! You probably COULD convey my compliments to Marcos. Damn!
by jollyroger on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 2:56am
An armed society is a polite society....... and why is that?
Videos of Intense Clashes in Kiev
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:37am
This gets into optics on which I'm no expert.
However, no matter how far away you move from the picture, the picture remains the same, and its view of its subject remains the same.
This is--to get a bit ridiculous, but it's almost the same--the same thing as standing at an angle to a photographic portrait. You don't see the side of the subject's head unless it's already in the picture.
I could be standing across the room from my monitor, and this picture is still a close up.
Edit to add: The other problem, of course, is they didn't even find a pipe. They found NO weapons. So the defense also had to MAKE UP the existence of a pipe, whether it could be mistaken for a gun or not.
I suppose, as with Trayvon, they could have said that Jordan's hands were weapons, and when he emerged from his car yelling insults--also uncorroborated testimony --Dunn felt in fear for his life.
But this is the problem with this SYG law. Now, someone can kill someone else and simply claim he was threatened by a gun, a pipe, someone's hands, someone's words ...by anything, really...and make a case. The lack of any corroborating evidence seems not to matter.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 8:26am
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/2/17/dunn-trial-blamethelawnotthejuryexpertssay.html
This law has got to go.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 10:08am
No matter how many times you repeat this, you ignore the fact the police did not fully protect the crime scene. You cannot positively say, there was no gun or weapon brandished?
After a few days, witnesses in the car changed their stories they originally gave to investigators about Jordan getting out of the car.
Now it appears, Jordan' defenders fabricated a story, that the child protective locks were engaged and wouldn't have allowed anyone to exit the car .... a car full of young adults, at a store, locked in the car?
Maybe you're that credulous to believe the new enhanced version of events?
The police allowed the crime scene to become spoiled. Some of Jordan' supporters want nothing less than this mans blood. To heck with the evidence or lost evidence.
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 3:49pm
Maybe you're credulous enough to believe that there were weapons.
On what basis?
You seem willing to believe that, but I have no idea why.
"To heck with the evidence or lost evidence."
Well that does cover the waterfront, doesn't it? No gun? Well, the gun must be lost.
Here's the thing: The lack of evidence of a gun doesn't mean in any way, shape or form that there was a gun.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:09pm
That will go over his head.
There had to be a gun, the kids were playing loud music.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:24pm
I agree the lack of gun would not exonerate him, but I would raise the question of Due Process, if the police failed to properly control the crime scene or control the preservation of what evidence may have been available at the time, but ignored for 4 Days.
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:30pm
If he had called the police to report what he had seen, then maybe they would've had a reason to look for a gun. The first they heard that there was a suspicion of a gun would not have been until after they came to arrest him.
by Verified Atheist on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:35pm
That's a good point. Did the police know the vehicle the witnesses were in, left the scene also?
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:58pm
Yes, they did. The occupants of that vehicle were the ones that called the police. You can't hide much from gas station cameras, you know. They're there to prevent people from driving off without paying for their fuel.
by Verified Atheist on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 8:51am
The defense is forced to MAKE UP the claim that the kids had a gun.
None has been produced.
The fact that none has been produced does NOT mean there really was a gun, but it was dumped somewhere.
The fact that Dunn CONTINUED firing as the kids DROVE AWAY shows that this was not self defense at all.
But this IS the kind of thing that will keep happening as more and more people start to carry firearms.
Here we have a dispute over loud music, and it gets "settled" by someone shooting someone else. I don't care whether Jordan mouthed off. I don't care whether he refused to turn down his music. I don't even care whether he had a lead pipe.
Once again, we have a dead kid because someone--who had the legal right to carry a firearm--had no business carrying one.
When you carry a gun, you no longer have the fear that would ordinarily cause you to take diversionary action. That's why you're carrying in the first place. Now we have folks who don't feel like they have to take evasive action and don't feel they should have to take such action because they're packing the decider in chief.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 10:40pm
If the man asked, could you please turn down the music you have two options, fight for your right to turn up the music even louder.Tell the man FU and get in his face, not knowing whether the man may or not be armed, might even be deranged, but if you feel froggy and bold, you might jump right into an argument, over a trivial thing, not worth fighting over, or dying for;
or; you could, turn down the music. Adopt an attitude of mildness, diffusing the situation, not allowing it to escalate to threats of violence.
Rephrased
On this deadly day two strong attitudes butted heads. Both may very well have felt threatened by another Alpha male? Jordan was not going to turn down the music and it appeared, according to witnesses at the scene, he got aggressive when asked to do so.
Wrong choice.
I'm not saying Jordan didn't have a right to listen to his music, he could have stepped aside, what real harm would that have hurt except maybe Ego?
Wouldnt it be better to be wronged and live
A good lesson for all mankind, no matter the color
Discretion is the better part of valor.
Prov. It is good to be brave, but it is also good to be careful.; If you are careful, you will not get into situations that require you to be brave.
Recently a teacher and a receptionist talked down persons intent on killing students, because they remained calm.
Teacher who saved students in NM school shooting praised as ...
Antoinette Tuff hailed as 'true hero' out of Georgia school shooting ..
CALMNESS
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:16am
What you say here is excellent advice.
I might add: Don't go asking a bunch of rowdy kids to turn down their beloved music while you're carrying a gun. Period.
And your advice still doesn't give Dunn the right to murder a kid because he's bothered by the music, however loud.
Ever live in an apartment?
One of the CLASSIC complaints from neighbors is one's music is too loud. You complain to the super. You bang on your ceiling or floor. You go and ask them to turn it down. You live with it and steam.
But you don't go carrying a gun to the guy's door with a view to "protecting" yourself if the other guy gets an attitude. Before America went gun and self defense crazy, this situation played itself out millions of times in cities across the world. And resolved itself in multiple ways without anyone getting killed.
And, I might add, Dunn was the ONLY one with the power to decide whether someone was going to get killed in this encounter. The ONLY one. He had a responsibility to make sure that didn't happen.
Not only did he NOT do that, but he CONTINUED firing long after the offending noise was gone and, assuming there was a gun or weapon in the car, long after that threat was removed.
The fact that he continued firing shows intent to kill, i.e., first degree murder. And not just one person--the first guy was already dead--but multiple people.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 8:37am
Just to be clear, second-degree murder also requires an intent to kill. The difference between first-degree and second-degree is pre-meditation, I believe of the kind that requires more than 5 minutes.
Edit to add: IANAL, so take the above with a grain of salt, and I'd be happy if someone who is a lawyer would either agree or disagree with what I said.
by Verified Atheist on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 9:47am
Just heard some things on the Diane Rehm show...
In Florida, premeditation can occur between shots. A person doesn't have to be plotting for some time before and then go out looking for the target.
If this is true, I would say that continuing to shoot--10 rounds in all--after the car had pulled away would constitute premeditation.
The other thing is, again from a panelist, but presumably a knowledgeable one...
The NRA hasn't presented a single case in which a defendant in a self-defense case hadn't been successful in "getting off" prior to the passage of this law.
In other words, the existing self-defense laws were entirely adequate in enabling defendants to make the case for self defense and win their day in court.
SYG is a law in search of a legal problem. What it does do, however, is encourage people to walk around armed because they feel, rightly or wrongly, that they can use their weapons with less chance of prosecution.
Which, in turn, helps to sell guns which, at bottom, is all the NRA is. A lobby for an industry that wants to sell as much of its product as possible and is willing to stir up a felt need for its product and ease its use in a wider range of situations.
"Why the heck are you spending all that time and ammo on the firing range when you could actually be using the dang in the way it was intended!"
"Still playing make believe with paper targets? Step up to the real thing! Test your skills against a living, breathing target that scampers around like a little monkey (h/t Ron Paul)."
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 11:51am
Moreover, it is the most common thing for kids to ride around in their cars playing music loudly. If Dunn didn't like this common, if irritating, teenage practice, then the right recourse for him, since they were in a public space, would have been to move his car. How hard would that have been?
But apparently, Dunn is under the impression that wherever he stands, wherever his car sits, is his castle. His domain. He isn't going to move; others must move. This is the SYG attitude.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 10:11am
Jordan's failure to "step aside" does zero to mitigate Dunn's guilt. "He got mad at me, your honor, so I shot him".
by Aaron Carine on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 8:44am
If unarmed Black teens in Florida are considered thugs, parents should instruct them in the use of firearms and tell them to shot when they feel threatened. I think that would level the playing field.
If Black teens are considered thugs and nonexistent weapons can be created in the mind of jurors by defense attorneys, the best mode of survival is to become an armed thug. Given the Stand Your Ground Law, that is the only way to guarantee one's survival.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 12:18pm
Yes, its not about defense as much as some try to claim. Its not even about being treated with courtesy or respect. Its about being treated with deference. Its about having power over others for most people who carry guns.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 3:37pm
Yeah.
This video says it all.
We used to be able to just express our road rage with a finger; sometimes we got out of our cars and attempted to beat the shite out of the other guy.
Now we can just shoot them!
The gun battle is over; the NRA won.
But can we hold the intentional felon or even the negligent felon accountable?
by Richard Day on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 3:48pm
I believe your being unfair and unreasonable
?
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 4:12pm
When I first entered this thread here I wondered, who cut the cheese?
Now I know...
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:24pm
How true, we didn't smell anything either until you did come in.
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:33pm
All I got, as it were:
by Richard Day on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:34pm
Maybe it would be better if we don't feed the troll?
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 7:59pm
A young girl with a Dream Defender tee shirt was canvassing my grandkids other grandmother's neighborhood this afternoon. The grandmother wondered what the girl was doing because she saw her on the other side of the street a couple of hours earlier. These kinds of verdicts is going to turn out the vote on the Democrat side in Florida. The young lady was white by the way. Grass roots are working hard so this will stop and that law will be removed.
by trkingmomoe on Mon, 02/17/2014 - 10:06pm
Here is another one with no evidence of any arms except eggs and leaves!
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/02/17/3299111/adrian-broadway/
by Richard Day on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 2:43am
I heard of a situation where, one persons wife was having an affair with another, and the offended husband, went after the other mans elderly parents. Tormenting them every night he could, with eggs and mayonnaise laced with acid, and he dumped this concoction on their new car surface. The mayonnaise allowed the acid to remain longer on the surface eating away the paint. The elderly man had a weak heart and died because of this tormenting. All the while the jilted lover laughed about his conduct, even justifying the tormenting of this poor soul and his eventual death. This was more than a childish prank, it was malicious intent to cause harm.
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:40am
Are there any gun-related killings that you won't attempt to justify with an unrelated story?
by Verified Atheist on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 7:47am
No, no there isn't VA. I can't make this point enough, it's called trolling, that is what it is, why on earth you all continue to engage him, blows my mind. It can't be fun, he throws out red herring after red herring, including that damn picture of the barrel of a fun and him requesting people to take 30 paces from their fucking monitor, you have to be kidding me right, and yet he is being taken seriously and being engaged by you all. He is a troll, this is trolling, don't fee the troll.
by tmccarthy0 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 10:07am
Can't speak for the others, but Jews like herring.
Sour cream is the best sauce. Matches is pretty good. Red sauce would be interesting.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 11:52am
Ketchup and horse radish.
The only way to fly!
by Richard Day on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 2:19pm
What kind of monitor? Ever heard of manners or respect for others?
Sorry, but I don't want to join the lynch mob.
BTW....What did you offer the dialog; pro or con, other than to attack someone, like some Troll?
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 3:24pm
Well you know, we read the news, we like to talk about it, debate it, and oh so much we love to argue about it. Its tough to find a good debate here since we agree so much. You post something. I say, "Its so true tmccarthy." I write a comment you reply, "I agree." Boring! Then there's resistance. The problem is he's so bad at rational debate. He makes the gun nuts look as crazy as they are. I wish there were a few republicans here who could make an at least somewhat rational case for their policies. Where's William F. Buckley when you need him? That would be a fun debate. But resistance is all we got. (sigh)
by ocean-kat on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 5:40pm
resistance
3. The capacity of an organism, tissue, or cell to withstand the effects of a harmful physical or environmental agent, such as a microorganism or pollutant.
Opposition to Stinkin Thinkin a condition most generally associated with left leaning ideologues, intended to pollute the mind and if left unchecked, it eventually leads to the destruction of the whole body.
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:07pm
What part of the underlined, did you find unrelated to the story I related?
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 3:29pm
I can't understand the big deal - the jury didn't acquit - 1 or more of 12 jurors didn't vote to convict on the main charge but the others stuck. It only takes 1 juror to get a do-over. Does that reflect on the state of racism in America, or more the chance of getting 1 idiot juror?
In a summary for the DC Superior Court from 2003, there were 13 mistrials out of 395, or 3.3%. So it happens fairly often in jury trials, but most cases don't even go to trial.
In this case, the state gets to either live with the verdict or retry the main count with the likelihood of a conviction. If it's 20 years for each attempted murder + another 15 years, the sentence is life in prison anyway. If it's only 20 years total for the 3 attempted murders + another 15 years, they might be tempted to re-try - the guy would be "only" 81 when he got out and might be paroled before serving full sentence.
But it could be worse - Cara Rintala has been through 2 hung juries on the murder of her wife, and will now go back for a 3rd trial.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 4:02pm
I have been thinking about the fact that the defendant is probably going to be sentenced to 60 years of slavery in some terrible prison facility anyway; so who cares?
Another trial is a waste of time; especially if lesser included offenses are eschewed in the prosecution's closing argument.
I mean who cares?
The guy will be in prison over the next two or five years of appeals anyway and the appellate courts sure the hell aint gonna reverse as far as I can tell.
Let imprisoned dogs lie.
And tax-payers' monies will be saved.
by Richard Day on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 4:09pm
If Dunn was not guilty of murdering Jordan a Davis, here is the impression
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 4:21pm
The jury didn't find him not guilty - it was a mistrial. I can write an impression of Dunn as Superman and it's just as useless. He can be re-tried if there's any point to it. He would be in jail while being retried as he's convicted of the other counts.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 4:26pm
All of this is true.
However, the principle counts, too, not just the end result or bottom line in this one particular case.
And the principle is equal justice under law.
It is undoubtedly true, as PP notes, that there are many mistrials and weird things that go on, and injustice prevails for lots of different kinds of people.
But injustice still prevails by a quantifiably higher amount for black people.
For example, blacks get tougher sentences, and get sentenced more often, than whites for the same crimes (last I looked).
So a black person could look at this trial and say to himself: Yeah, it's good that the guy is getting locked up for good, but had he been me, chances are and the statistics confirm that I'd be on death row. And the difference between prison for life and death row isn't trivial.
(I know some people say they'd prefer the latter to the former--but let's leave that aside for the moment.)
And then there's this:
Dunn isn't getting locked up for killing Davis. He's getting locked up for having tried to kill a bunch of other people.
If you're the parent of the dead kid that realization burns bad. Yeah, the guy's in jail, but he's not in jail for killing your kid. Your kid didn't get justice.
And worse...if Dunn had controlled himself a bit more and had "ONLY" killed Davis, he would have walked away. Walked away. The realization that the life of your kid, or someone who could've been your kid, is worth so little sears.
Here's an analogy that only partially fits:
You're driving along and you nearly get hit by a guy running a light at 60 mph. He misses you, literally, by an inch. Let's say he's driving a truck or a bus.
How do you feel? Do you shrug and say, "Well, a miss is as good as mile," and go merrily on your way.
Or do you stop and take a deep breath, try to steady your nerves, contemplate the enormity of what almost happened, resolve to slow down at green lights, and so on?
IOW, do you take in what happened and not just the fact that he missed you and you're alive?
If you're a kid, you probably shrug it off. If you're an adult, the second scenario probably fits you better.
My point is this: It's not just the bottom line, or end result, that counts (i.e., Dunn's going to be rotting in jail for life). Yeah, you're glad to be alive and unharmed. And you're just as alive and just as unharmed as someone who'd been drinking a mai-tai on his back porch when the near miss occurred.
But something important has happened to you and maybe changed your attitudes and the way you'll act in the future. You don't just shrug it off because you didn't get hurt, though you're grateful for it.
Now, if you move the analogy from an accident situation to one in which someone has killed someone else purposely...and the victim and you belong to the same group ...and belonging to that group may have had something to do with why the killer acted and how the killer was tried...and statistics back up your suspicions and fears... then the event casts a wider penumbra than the specifics of the sentence.
So yes, it may not make sense to retry the guy.
But we miss the point if we reduce the trial to the sentence and the fact that Dunn will be in prison for life anyway, so who cares if he didn't get murder one. If I am going to get murder one for doing X, then you should get murder one for doing X. That's what equal justice under law means.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 9:41pm
Thanks
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 9:48pm
We were happy to get Al Capone for tax evasion.
[he was only in Alcatraz for 8 years, but by the time he got out, his interest & ability for crime were finished]
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 1:09am
It was the syphilis that got'im, not Ness...
by jollyroger on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 1:28am
I wonder if he got medical care in jail, or did they just make his tax evasion a death sentence?
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:40am
He got out of jail, but as JR notes, the syph was what really did him in. Whether that was prison acquired, me dont's know. But health care without penicillin at that time would have still been a death sentence.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 8:44am
Unencumbered by actual reference to the record, I'm pretty sure the syphilis predated Alcatraz cuz it takes quite a while to eat up your brain to the extent it had with Capone.
It was simply not curable at that time. I was really just riffing on the King Kong meme that opens the Jefferson Airplane albut "It wasn't the airplanes-it was beauty that killed the beast" but I couldn't find an appropriate clip.
by jollyroger on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 10:05am
True, and we are happy to get Dunn.
But your point might be more relevant if we were talking about the differential treatment by the authorities of Italian and Jewish gangsters, for example.
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 2:31pm
Thanks
I added commentary from Jordan Davis' parents, Ta-Nehisi Coates and Earl Ofari Hutchinson noting their sentiments about the meaning of the verdict. Mine is not an isolated viewpoint.
On a cynical note if Dunn had killed all the teens in fear of his life, he may have either gotten off or had a mistrial.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 2:55pm
Huh? Prosecutors take whatever route they can to get assholes off the street.
And as far as we know, it was 1 juror who hung the trial - why are you talking about different treatment by prosecutors? AFAIK they did their job reasonably well - as 1 analyst at CNN notes, they won 4 of 5 verdicts and 60-75 years, despite the inevitable unpredictability of a jury of 12 liviing breathing somewhat irrational humans.
Jury trials are not lynching parties - they do start with presumption of innocence, and they require the presented evidence of acts be evaluated not in terms of TV shows, but in terms of legal definitions of crimes that vary slightly from state to state.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 4:08pm
You're not getting my point.
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 4:46pm
Nor you mine.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 4:55pm
No, actually I do.
To be sympathetic to your analysis, it's a bit of an all's well that ends well.
The guy's been put away for a lot of years...what more do you want?
The prosecutors did as well as could be expected (no one's perfect) and jurors are known for making mistakes.
Capone was a murderer, but the authorities were only able to get him on tax evasion.
But despite all of that...the guy is going to be behind bars for the rest of his life.
To which I say...yes...but this result, though good, doesn't speak to the issue of equal justice for all. Was justice served?
Dunn was not convicted for murder, which he clearly committed. Had he shown a little bit more restraint, he would've walked away scott free. The murder wouldn't have counted at all.
So in what sense was justice done?
Suppose Dunn had followed up his murder of Davis by robbing someone else at gun point on the next block and was convicted and sent to jail for that?
Would justice have been served in the Davis case because Dunn was put away for some unrelated crime?
No. Well, that's essentially what we have here. The killing of Davis and the attempted murder of the others were treated as though they were unrelated.
Suppose George Zimmerman shoots someone else tomorrow and goes to jail. Is that for the Martins to conclude that justice was (finally) done in their son's case?
The fact that Capone was put away for tax evasion and put out of business is good, but in no way means justice was done in all the murders he committed for which he was never convicted or sentenced or sent to jail.
It just means that, thank god, the guy is off the streets. It doesn't mean that justice was done. Which is bad enough if your family member was one of his victims. It's worse if you are part of a group that is denied justice at statistically higher rates.
This is why people fret. Especially people who know that their people regularly and inordinately fail to get justice from the system for crimes committed against them. And inordinately get convicted more often and receive harsher sentences than others for committing the same crimes.
The fretting isn't about Dunn getting taken off the streets.
It's about not getting a fair shake--not in this case, and not in a significantly high number of cases. It's the distinction between particular result and principle.
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 5:42pm
Equal justice for all? Get real. Citizens' United case says rich people can buy elections. After the 2008 crash, the people who crashed the economy got rewarded while those that suffered worst got fleeced again. Then came the 1% vs the 99% - guess who won? Stop & frisk is still a problem, as is excessive incarceration of blacks for drugs & other crimes. The FBI has a program of illegal surveillance of Muslims around New York - monitoring the falafel houses of all things, but uselessly getting no actionable evidence from their intrusive behavior. How many Muslims get held every time they go through customs, with no recourse to find out why they're being harrassed and targeted?
But in this case, authorities actually pursued a killer and got a serious long conviction unlike many cases where if they even find the perpetrator, the person on trial walks. But gee, I should be all idealistic and hold out for our trip to Candy Mountain. Sorry, as I noted before, I'm not as naïve as I was at 12.
And screw Zimmerman & Martin - you should know very well that it wasn't a clear case like the Dunn case, that the kid was beating the older guy, not just minding his own business in a car driving away. Maybe for the Dunn case the prosecutors should have gone for a 2nd degree murder conviction, but then people would be complaining they didn't go for 1st.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:03pm
Maybe you could have told them the story where they lived happily ever after?
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:33pm
The problem with this line of "reasoning" is that you could use any of the injustices you point out in paragraph one to write off any of the others as SOP and not worth fretting about.
Telling blacks that they shouldn't fret about getting equal justice when other people aren't getting equal justice just doesn't cut it. For one, they've not been getting equal justice for a lot longer than the middle class or the Muslims in this country.
And yes, they are the target of S&F and excessive incarceration for drugs which simply plays into the same narrative we see here. Which is one good reason why they do fret about outcomes that might seem unremarkable to other people
Your original question was "why all the fretting?" A lot depends on where you're sitting and been sitting for a long time.
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 9:21pm
He is incapable of understanding that point. Just because injustice occurs is no reason to ignore it. We are supposed to smile and say thanks for any judicial crumb.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 9:47pm
You still seem to attribute the mistrial to the first degree murder charge. The jury received a "lesser included crimes" instrucion that would have permitted a second degree conviction if that was the issue. The issue was stand your groud style self defense, which means that the two holdout jurors were not willing to convict on 2nd degree or manslaughter, but not first degree. They believed that the homicide was justified.
by jollyroger on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 9:48pm
The focus was on premeditated 1st degree, and it's possible these 2 jurors never got over that issue, or maybe they were just destined to hang the trial.
Some folks think the state overcharged. Without premeditation, and only needing 6 jurors, a 2nd degree murder charge should be much simpler. Nevertheless, a lot of folks have their "hearts" set on a 1st degree conviction, so I guess we'll try him and hang him as many times as we need to until we get it right.
BTW, it doesn't look good that the 2 holdouts were able to get a 3rd by end of deliberations. Also, Juror #4 didn't mention Stand Your Ground as a reason behind the 2 holdouts choosing acquittal - doesn't quite prove it, but I'd think if that was the main sticking point, she would have noted it. My gut feeling is they got hung up on intent and I doubt the other 10 were into negotiating down to 2nd degree. Not that my gut always knows what's going on aside from beer time.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 02/20/2014 - 8:32am
Thanks again.
Some seem to think if we give teens a pep talk and tell them how much better things are now than in the past, the teens will feel better.Hey kids no lynchings, Smile. Teens only know the past from books and word of mouth. It is not the living, breathing experience of day to day life.
Black teens in the 60s did not have a sense that there had been a ton of progress since the 1920s and 1940s. T hey were not satisfied. Today's Black teens don't want to hear that things are better, they want change now. In Florida, Stand Your Ground has to go.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:01pm
Stand Your Ground wasn't even used in the Zimmerman case, and where the 1 woman tried using it, her going to the garage, coming back and shooting near her husband's head & close enough to hit her kids got that part thrown out and she was convicted. If there's something of Stand Your Ground that was significant to the Dunn case, point it out, but there's always been a self-defense plea in any shooting, for say hundreds of years - whether the jury buys it or not is another matter.
Let's just scare teens to death and make them think they're moments from dying no matter what they do. What a great cheerleader of gloom. Here's the murder rate for Florida the last 30 years or more - as will be obvious, murders are down from even 5 years ago, much less the 80's when the population was at least 1/3 less. But teaching kids historical perspective is too much to ask - they demand to be freaked out now!
Not only that, you ignore actual statistics where say 1/7 white murders are done by blacks and 1/13 black murders are by whites - i.e. the vast majority are from the same race, but you want to make your kids feel like they're in the middle of a "lynching" spree. Wow. Stunning. How about warning your kids about the 12/13 of black murders that are black-on-black crime while you're instilling fear and paranoia? Or does that miss the adrenalin of having a potential racism angle?
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:39pm
Stand Your Ground that was significant to the Dunn case, point it out
The instructions on self defense to the jury were informed by the stand your ground privelege which replaces the old instructions re: duty to retreat.
In other words, prior to stand your ground, a jury is instructed to find against a defendant who failed to retreat if that were an available option to the use of deadly force--under stand your ground, there is no duty to retreat. (absent stand your ground, even where there is an ongoing struggle, the person with the "last clear chance" to retreat is obligated to do so, and his failure, if found by the jury, will defeat a self-defense justification)
by jollyroger on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:45pm
Who had the "Last clear chance"? Witness Brunson originally told police. Jordan exited the car and approached towards Dunn, threatening to kill him. Witnesses for Jordan didn't dispute Dunn' claim, because the music was too loud.
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:57pm
"last clear chance" is obsoleted in Fla. by stand your ground. It only applies to the previous rules defining a successful self-defense justification.
I think we can safely presume that under the old rules of self-defense, were Jordan to have emerged swinging a lead pipe (for instance) but ten feet away, a defendant who fired three fatal shots as an alternative to getting into his car and driving away would have a hard time successfully invoking a self defense justification argument.
by jollyroger on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:13pm
Was it 10 feet away? Or as close as a drivers door of vehicle #1 next to the passenger door of vehicle #2?
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:34pm
I don't see how that makes any sense anyway - unless the shooter felt threatened in some way, there's no case for a car driving away to provoke Stand Your Ground. Anyway, you can read the instructions - I still don't see how it would keep Dunn from a conviction - the only issue is whether 1st, 2nd or manslaughter. But 2 of 12 thought different.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:00pm
Without benefit of being in the jury room, I am assuming that the holdout jurors who refused to convict on any of the lesser included offenses of second degree murder or manslaughter did so because they bought the argument that Dunn acted out of a "reasonable fear of death or bodily harm" in firing, which makes the homicide justifiable.
Your questions re:the driving away car are inapposite because that firing was not found to be justified, hence, the conviction for 3 counts of attempted murder.
by jollyroger on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:16pm
I could posit a scenario. Jordan comes to attack Dunn, Dunn feels threatened and reaches for his gun, Jordan realizing Dunn has reached for his gun, Jordan hurriedly turns back, trying to get to the vehicle he was riding in; Dunn believing Jordans reaching for his weapon
Since he already made a death threat. Why would Dunn believe Jordan was going back to the car, to offer Dunn a stick of chewing gum?
Edited to add: Some have suggested there may not have been a shotgun as Dunn thought he saw, it may be the threat by Jordan, was a stupid bluff, called.
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:28pm
The verbal threat looked like a shotgun?
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:36pm
Now you're reasoning is getting senseless/
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:53pm
From the article 1/7 white murders are done by blacks and 1/13 black murders are by whites
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:10pm
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2011/tables/table-4
What's interesting in the Robbins article you link to is this...
Robbins wants to debunk the idea that there is an epidemic of racially based crime against blacks (or even whites) in America. He says Jealous is full of it because race-based crime is very rare.
He then links to the FBI statistics. But here is what the statistics say, at least as I read them. Of all single-bias crimes in 2011 in which race was the key factor, 577 were anti-white, and 2,494 of them were anti-black.
If we look at the total of single bias, race-based crimes in 2011--3,465--we see that 16.65% were committed against whites and 71.98% were committed against blacks.
Of course, his point that race-based crime is rare may hold water, but when it does occur, it is overwhelmingly against blacks.
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 9:45pm
And when religion is the motivating factor for a crime, it appears Jews are far out ahead as Americans' favorite target.
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 9:48pm
Maybe this is why we think prosecutions are easy, what with prosecutors illegally withholding evidence, FBI & NSA tapps being used unknowingly to get drug convictions, prosecutors piling up charges to get people like Aaron Swartz to plea or kill themselves, or prisoners held forever without charge like at Gitmo or even José Padilla who was held 5 years including solitary & a bit of torture before being finally charged with a completely new set of crimes & convicted.
By the way, if it makes y'all feel better, Padilla only got 17 years - Dunn got 75. Neither was convicted of actually murdering anyone, though of course Padilla in fact didn't actually kill anyone.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 4:50pm
Exactly.
For some, all they need to know
Black kid killed by Whitey
Whitey must die.
If a jury doesn't agree, theres Racism in America.
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 4:29pm
Wrong again as usual. The thing is why are older white guys such chicken shits, scared of their own shadow and taking it out on every black kid around them.
OOOOHHH I'm so scared of a 17 year old kids music that I must shoot first, just in case he has a gun. What a crock, it must be awful to live like a scared rabbit, afraid of everything. These older white guys have no problem taking a life, because they are chicken shits. That is what they are, scared little chickens afraid of their own shadows. I know they pick on black kids because they can obviously get away with it.
Oh kat is correct, this is about control. That Dunn guy, thinks he has the right to demand that others do what he tell them to do.. ugh, stupid chicken shit white guy with a power issue. When are these gun loving chickens going to understand we don't have do anything they tell us, and they still have to leave the rest of us alone? Maybe when a few of these chickens get the death penalty.
by tmccarthy0 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 4:44pm
So was Willie Noble one of those "older white guys"? What if I started saying such stupid shit about "older white women"? "young black dudes"? "young Hispanics"...
1 kid gets killed wrongfully in a country of 310 million (and the perpetrator even gets sentenced) and it gives TMac the right to start spouting stereotypical racist sexist insulting bullshit. You go, girl. You got a mouth, gotta let those lips flap.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 5:58pm
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:53pm
"They" are not wrong about bias in the judicial system. Here is a report from the Brennan Center. Reading it might help you.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 5:33pm
Oh my Oh my Oh my... Smells like another load of that rotten cheese.
Resistance to Reason should wipe off the shoes before entering.
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 6:38pm
You supplied the response a expected from a fear-filled man
I asked if Black parents had a right to arm their children
You gave a predicted response.
I think parents should form gun and rifle clubs to protect their children from fearful men.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 7:39pm
Why do you keep saying Black parents? Why cant you say ALL parents? But I suspect it wouldn't fit your meme of discrimination?
As though Black parents or their young are denied the right to self defense?
"ALL PARENTS"
by Resistance 2 hours 33 min ago in A FOUL VERDICT THAT DEPRESSES ME GREATLY
You should run along now, Your continual harassing, only leads to your standard reply "You failed to answer my repeated silly questions, therefore I win" Just as Peracles pointed out the other night, I too, don't care to play your games.
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 8:15pm
I said Black parents because, if you haven't been paying attention, the murders of Trayvon Martin and Jordan have created concern in the Black community. The Stand Your Ground Law is seen as targeting Black youth. Therefore, I asked the question about arming Black youth.
You responded with the response a fearful man would give by cut and pastes on criminals. The. Criminals were Black criminals. You provided the criminal images that popped into your brain and the images were of Black men.
As I have noted before, if the larger community does have to get strapped it will be to protect ourselves from fearful armed men who create magic, disappearing shotguns. The terror will be from the Ted Nugent's who issue threats and the guys who see imagine ry shotguns and write racist letters while in prison awaiting trial.
BTW I provided documentation of racial bias in the judicial system. Can you provide. Link that the basis does not exist? Orr is the data not showing bias made of the same material as the magical disappearing shotgun?
Edited to ''change will not be'' to ''will be'' (bolded)
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 9:22pm
2nd thought I don't care to reply.
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 8:45pm
I wouldn't if I were you. You can only dig a deeper hole. Everyone knows what you did.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 8:48pm
Here is some data on the impact of race on homicide convictions. If you read it you will say its just fluff geared to blame Whitey because we all know that there is no bias in the judicial system.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 10:29pm
Everyone knows..... by now; You want vengeance; and the jury was wrong.
I just didn't want to get caught up in your race baiting, your constant message, Blacks are discriminated against and Whitey's the culprit.
I haven't seen what the composition of the deliberating jury was, but I know you've already made up your mind and decided they were unfair and racists.
As for your data did it say what the compositions of those juries were in those case?
Taken from your linked site
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 11:30pm
You bring up "Blame Whitey" from the 1960s or whenever. You focus on Black criminals when I talk about Blacks defending themselves. You say that there is no bias in the judicial system when there clearly is bias. I provide documentation of bias.
I point out the things that you have done including being gullible enough to believe a story about a non-existent shotgun from a guy who didn't mention the shotgun to the love of his life who was sitting next to him. The story does not make sense.
Michael Dunn writes racist letters from prison and you still give him the benefit of the doubt. You dare accuse me of playing the race card? It is laughable. You are supporting the racist murderer.
If you want to see the racial makeup of the juries, read the documents. If you have data to support your statement that there is no bias in the judicial system, please back up your words with data and links.
I'm not Blaming Whitey, I'm providing facts on racial bias. Read before you speak.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 11:39pm
Who you blaming then, Asians? Whose your perceived racists? Your message is still the same, " I'm providing facts on racial bias" by this group (fill in the blank)
by Resistance on Tue, 02/18/2014 - 11:50pm
I linked to documents noting bias. If there is bias it should be removed don't you think. Or do you think we should worry about offending a group of people. I didn't count how many of each ethnic group is in the administering of the justice system Are you saying Whites are the ones promoting any bias that exists?
The data in the homicide link are from logarithmic regression and presented in percentage form which can be confusing. Comments later in the responses note this. The Brennan Center link above is a more detailed source of systemic bias. I'm surprising you actually read something
I called Dunn a racist. I said the judicial system was biased.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:14am
Because you disagree with jurors, who weighed the evidence.?
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:03am
More of your childish games. You better not respond. because your so much more superior?
I was close, in identifying your standard replies when someone grows tired of your constant harassing.
or adhominems.
No the jury did that
No since when is asking questions "supporting a racist murderer" The moment I question the hanging jury I am now suspect? Because of your racial bias?
Bye
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:07am
Ad hominem
Because you are or because you're
Looking for a magic shotgun not mentioned to his companion is a stretch. Perhaps the Martians took it. Reasonable doubt is not any doubt.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:20am
Res, con respetto, the jury never saw the racist letters, because the prosecutor is a horses ass.
As the esteemed roundhead would have it,
"By the bowels of Christ", sometimes the guy with the gun is just fucking wrong!
by jollyroger on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:31am
Thanks
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:48am
The conversation was not about "sometimes the guy with the gun is just &### wrong!"
There’s no question the killer was wrong, according to the jury, who weighed the evidence,
I am a defender of the right to a fair trial for the accused, before you sentence someone to die.
I asked a question about the evidence that is all.
I was looking for a reason why the jury might have had trouble reaching the desired verdict, some disliked and were ready to incite others to break open the jail, for vigilante justice
All these straw man arguments originate from the same trouble maker. Turning this thread, into a racist diatribe, about how blacks are unfairly treated;
Burn down the court house, find the nearest tree? Because a black person can't get justice it's just too biased. This person would fan the flames for their type of justice.
Evidently the rights of the accused get overlooked, the moment someone suggests racism or that the victim was black.
They don’t want to hear evidence. Hang 'em first, try 'em later.
Screw the jury system?
Edited to add: According to some it's biased anyway, so they'll be the judge and jury.
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:56am
Read the Brennan Center report on bias.
You are the only one talking about burning down the courthouse.
Dunn will be retried as happens in cases like this one.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 8:02am
I don't expect a response but your bringing up Black criminals when asked about Black self-defense was strange
Blame Whitey when judicial bias was mentioned was strange.
Suggesting that there wasn't bias in the judicial system was strange
The acceptance of the magic shotgun was strange. It will be interesting to hear what the jurors say.
of all the things the Blame Whitey tag seemed Ted Nugent and Rush Limbaugh crazy.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:32am
One of the Dunn jurors is speaking out on Nightline tonight and on GMA tomorrow morning.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:47am
From Nightline 02/18/2014
Juror number 4 believes that Michael Dunn got away with murder. In the initial vote, most jurors felt Dunn was guilty, 2 were undecided and 2 thought he was not guilty.The final vote was 9 guilty, 3 not guilty. 8 Whites, 2 Black, A Hispanic and an Asian. Race of the murderer and victim were not introduced in the case. We will see if other jurors come forward and confirm her version of events.
When OJ was found not guilty most of the majority community felt that the justice system failed. When the Black community sees the verdicts in the Zimmerman case seeing Zimmerman with domestic violence episodes after acquittal, and ready to box for pay, feel that Zimmerman got away with murder.
Michael Dunn who never mentioned a gun until after his arrest and composing racist letters from jail, is also felt to have gotten away with murder. He will spend time in jail, but it will not be for the murder of Jordan Davis.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 5:52am
Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman.
Maybe the jurors were biased?
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:25am
I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
Perhaps that is our problems you words are not clear to me. On a blog words are how you form impressions. In the Michael Dunn case I do not see Dunn as. Champion of the right to bear arms. I see an angry, fearful guy who fired into a van killing an unarmed teen.
Dunn said nothing about seeing a shotgun to his companion. The discovery of his racist letters from prison confirmed my impression. Dunn talks about how to create a more polite society by killing more Black teens. He is a racist. I find defending someone who did not mention a gun at the time of the event and not until his arrest as strange,
When I mention bias in the judicial system, your words imply that you do not believe that bias exists. You go on to say that by suggesting that there is bias, I am Blaming Whitey. Those are your words, not Rush Limbaugh. Criticizing racial bias is Blaming Whitey according to you. Read the Brennan Center and then we will talk. I find your belief that there is no bias in the system strange.
When I asked if Black parents should teach their children to defend themselves, you did not say yes, you provided examples of a dog-fight promoter and some hoodlums. That said that Black criminals, not Black self-defense is what lept to your mind as a first response.
Words create images. The magic disappearing gun created by a racist creates an image, belief in a lack of judicial bias creates an image. Mentioning Black criminals rather than defending the right of Black teens creates an image.
I am not the first to point out to you that the words you use may be creating a different image of you than you intend, but that is life.
In your post above, I don't know if you are saying that the Simpson jurors were biased like some of the Dunn jurors, or that the Simpson jurors were biased and you don't feel that the Dunn jurors were not biased or something totally different.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:59am
Here are the parents of Jordan Davis on "Good Morning America" today. The Stand Your Ground statue in Florida has to be changed to prevent other Michael Dunn's and George Zimmerman's from being authorized to commit murder.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 11:03am
Ta-Nehisi Coates laments the meaning of the verdict
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:08pm
Which sort of puts the lie to the idea that people, black or otherwise, who wanted to see murder one were out for blood and vengeance.
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 4:44pm
The Trayvon Martin verdict and the Jordan Davis verdicts say that Black teen life is of no value. I think some people don't understand that is the message being transmitted. It comes across in the Black blogosphere. Many in the MSM don't get it.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 5:03pm
Jordan Davis wasn't beating a man when he got shot, and Davis' killer was convicted of wrongdoing, even if not the exact charge many wanted.
Some people don't understand that they're transmitting that message of futility even though many in society are trying to make sure more and more black kids do have a chance. In terms of street violence, it was much harder to be a black teen 15 or 20 years ago, and there were more cases of police abuse with little sanctions, such as with King, Diallo, Louima.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 5:26pm
Earl Ofari Hutchinson also notes the disheartening message of the verdict.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 12:53pm
Jon Stewart takes a satirical look at the verdict. Conclusion.....kill everybody.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 3:36pm
Why is there a set of nunchucks in the Durango? @1:31
Right on the seat (a bludgeoning stick weapon)
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 5:08pm
From Jacksonville Channel 4
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 5:37pm
The video @1:31 made it appear as though they were filming the inside of the vehicle that was fired upon
http://www.hlntv.com/video/2014/02/09/michael-dunn-mark-omara-jordan-davis-zimmerman
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:23pm
Different upholstery
I'll bet wingnut media is going crazy
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:29pm
The sad thing is the nun chucks and silencer are negative things only if they were I the teens' vehicle
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:33pm
You need to look back a few seconds earlier, Look at the door with the bullet holes and notice the backseat is the same color as the seat the nunchucks were on.
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 6:44pm
So they both had nun chuks and silencers and like the shotgun, the kids dumped them?
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:09pm
Except the kids forgot the nunchucks, overly concerned about the shotgun I guess?
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:20pm
The Martians took the shotgun and left the nun chuks. They are known to be sloppy. Those kids just have to be guilty don't they?
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:32pm
So the police covered up the kids silencer and nun chuks?
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:33pm
You see Martians often?
"Boys will be boys"?
Maybe as guilty as the kids I provided you a link to last night? Especially if they'd like to see the "Cracker: who killed their friend..... fry?
Good thing there was no river for them to dump the gun into; making the police dive for it.
Better yet they could call their friend and tell them to meet at the end of the parking lot 100 feet away, from the store front, and there the anonymous friend would find the weapon
Easy to do and get away with it, because the police never searched the phone records of all the passengers.
by Resistance on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:51pm
I am receiving enormous pleasure from the fact that other people are reading your analysis of the "facts",
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 8:25pm
You are biased plain and simple, When you see the nun chuks and silencer, you immediately assumed they belonged to the Black teens. I was hoping that it was not the teens, but said let us see what the facts are. I find a report that a silencer and nun chuks were found in Dunn's car. I see a statement from one of his lawyers that confirms the silencer and nun chuks belonged to Dunn. I conclude that the nun chuks and silencer belong to Dunn.
You see the same information and, in your mind, create a scenario where there were identical items in the vehicle in which Jordan Davis was a passenger. It it reasonable to assume that there was a silencer and nun chuks in the Davis vehicle that were photographed and then covered up by the police and prosecutor? You say yes.
You are totally biased you have decided the teens are guilty. You would have hung the jury. Jordan Davis would not find justice in your hands.
(Edited to remove typos)
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 11:06pm
Just like the graph you provided, skewed to mislead others, but the lies were convenient for your meme. I am sorry but I don't trust you.
Wake up and keep up with the news, Prosecutorial misconduct is in vogue today. Maybe you should review the link provided by Peracles, about going to Candy Mountain.
You say you found a report and I saw no link. What makes you think I was going to believe you, with your constant twisting of words?
by Resistance on Thu, 02/20/2014 - 12:37am
The evidence in the a Dunn car
http://www.news4jax.com/news/Evidence-in-Jordan-Davis-muder-case/-/47588...
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/20/2014 - 6:28am
I know get a hint how Bill Nye felt arguing climate change with the director of the creation museum. You think that you are being objective, but you are clearly biased. You hypothesize a shotgun existed in the face of Dunn not mentioning a shotgun to his fiancée. You see nun chuks and immediately assume that the belonged to the Black teens. You reject the reporting from a local TV station with a confirmatory evidence statement from one of Dunn's lawyers.
Your conclusion appears to be that the a TV station lied and miraculously none of Dunn's lawyers disputed the report despite one lawyer being quoted by the station.
Your stance is illogical. It is not reasonable. I said Martians took the shotgun because that is as reasonable as the fact that the shotgun existed.The nun chuks belonged to the teens and Dunn's lawyers seeing the photos of the nun chuks which were public did not yell about a Black thugs with nun chuks.
There was no shotgun. The Black teens called the police. The nun chuks belonged to Dunn, the guy who wrote racist filth about how killing more Blacks was a good thing.
Dunn will be retried.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/20/2014 - 8:15am
When you have a case like the Davis murder and you want to justify the murder, you turn to Black on a Black crime. This generally means gang on gang crime. The bottom line is that if a Jordan a Davis had not been murdered by Michael a Dunn, the racist, he would have been taken out by a gangbanger.
Dont get Black kids concerned about the frightened a White guy. They need to fear the Black guy, even thought he got killed by a White guy, a Davis should have kept his eye open for the Black guy.
Both a Dunn and Davis had nun chuks and silencers in their cars.
Got it.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/19/2014 - 7:44pm
Not sure who this was to, but no one here is justifying murder, and I at least didn't specify gang action - there are a lot of threats to black kids especially, and yes, they need help avoiding problems even if they're doing nothing wrong. Sucks, but that's life - next generation hopefully will be better.
If for my kids there's a high risk of danger and one situation is 12/13 likely and the other is 1/13, I'll of course emphasize the higher probability, but won't ignore the lower.
But you seem to like that "fearing the White guy" bit - I'd tell the kids to fear the nuts who carry guns and nun chuks and other stupid shit waiting to go postal for no reason.
I had a friend who flipped off a driver who cut him off on a pedestrian crossing - the guy got out and broke his nose and cost him several thousand dollars in hospital bills. Don't know if the guy was white or black - I know that a justified finger led to a lot more trouble than it was worth.
I've always been a chicken shit, or at least sensibly scarce when trouble arises. The times I've stood up for "something", it almost invariably doesn't matter, including once when I got my face smashed in. I was kinda in the right, but I was the one left bleeding. The only times I can think of it being worth it was when a woman was getting beaten & a couple of other incidents. Drunken assholes are like mosquitoes - no matter how many you swat, there will be thousands more, so just like last weekend when a ton of drunks at closing time were in my face, I just learn to steer clear - the police will do a little bit, but not much, and unless there's a coordinated Neighborhood Watch/Guardian Angels/or some other organized response, 1 person getting in the mix is just likely to regret it. Plus most murders are between people who know each other - many of these black-on-black and white-on-white murders are over stupid shit like whose football team won... frequently combined with a lot of alcohol or drugs.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 02/20/2014 - 2:11am
Michael Dunn will be retried for murder. The majority of jurors in the first trial thought he was guilty of murder. Hopefully a second jury will come to a unified guilty verdict. Dunn will likely spend the rest of his life in jail, but as it stands, it won't be for the death of Jordan Davis,
letters written from his prison cell indicate that a Dunn believes that more shooting iron justice will keep uppity Blacks in their place. Dunn is free to write his filth ... from jail.
A host of African-American writers have written about the disappointment in not getting justice for Jordan Davis. Work in reforming Stand Your Ground laws in Florida will be a good way to honor Jordan Davis and Tayvon Martin.
In both the Martin and the Davis case,racial elements were not addressed. In light of the sentiments expressed in Michael Dunn's letters, this method may need to be reassessed
Rot in jail Michael a Dunn as you await your new trial.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/20/2014 - 8:02am