MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
An essential guide to the violent seething cauldron that is America.
Comments
Hal, do you believe NAFTA was behind the massacre in Las Vegas like Palast clearly implies?
I have seen Palast, he's as nuts and bizarre-o-world as Info Wars.. From Hal's link:
PTSD, because NAFTA forced Palast's poor buddy Paddock to the Vietnam War like hell of making up to $5 million a year gambling in the posh pampered, and for Paddock highly successful, high roller capitol of the world in Las Vegas? Of course, Palast doen't mention Paddock's elite gambling status.
When a person has an political ideology that is so obsessive that it forms not just a cognitive filter, but it creates far fetched fantasies to fit that ideology, one has moved beyond any semblance of reality, into the realm of insanity.
by NCD on Sun, 10/15/2017 - 11:19am
Let me rephrase your question slightly since you present the issue in an all-or-nothing fashion that does not do justice either to the complexity of our society or even to one horrific recent event. So, here's the question that I think is relevant:
Q. Do I think the trade deals that are largely responsible for our hollowed-out American heartland feed the anger and anomie lurking just below the surface of American society played a role in the Las Vegas murders?
A. Frankly, I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Palast presents a strong case and he knew the shooter and his background whereas I didn't. So, I'll defer to Palast until presented with convincing evidence to the contrary.
by HSG on Sun, 10/15/2017 - 11:27am
Appalling, Hal - the guy makes $5 million a year and you'll blame a shop class 40 years before or not getting a scholarship to Stanford or NAFTA or whatever for his shooting binge? Soros had his family wiped out by the Germans - he went and got a degree.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 10/15/2017 - 11:55am
Different people respond differently to similar stimuli.
by HSG on Sun, 10/15/2017 - 12:05pm
Yes, especially the insane.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 10/15/2017 - 1:23pm
I noticed with interest that Anne Coulter's been heavily soliciting for Las Vegas shooting conspiracy theories, she knows good culture war material when she sees it. Something everyone can do together! Fight fight fight culture wars with this one, big time! Make grist of this mill. Sell books, at the very least get clicks and eyeballs. Everyone can mine this one, everyone can play using their favorite issue. As this dead man tells no tale as of yet, you can make up any grievance narrative you want and run with it
Can't wait for Russian/Trump casino angle.Was just thinking though, that these days the Mafia should not be a part of the narrative, if one wants a narrative to be convincing, one will have to use Native American tribes instead.....
by artappraiser on Sun, 10/15/2017 - 1:15pm
Palast demonstrates the limits of economic determinism as a useful perspective.
The more such necessity tells the story of what happened someplace, the less anything else can tell us what may be significant.
Take the information Palast gives about the community they both grew up in. That picture is more interesting than his explanation of what it meant.
by moat on Sun, 10/15/2017 - 2:43pm
The motherfucker is so deceitful I don't know where to start. Palast was born in '52 - he was never eligible for the draft and Nixon had largely wound the war down by the time he turned 18. He got a ton of free schooling from California back in the glory years, up through Masters programs. Paddoch was born in '53 - again, out of Vietnam danger - no risk of losing hands, Greg you schmuck. Paddoch worked for the IRS, then as an auditor for Lockheed (so he didn't lose his job to Mexico, and Lockheed wound down jobs because the war ended and space program shifted, not ue to outsourcing), and then he was a California real estate speculator/investor during the real estate bubble pulling in over $2 million a year, later $5 million gambling. So some liberal is going to cream his jeans over some inspirational lying asshole along with a mass murderer who was also likely some predatory real estate scum, all because he heard an opportunity to bash NAFTA for the umpteenth time. This is seriously retarded and sick.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 10/15/2017 - 3:42pm
I thought the article was interesting, mainly because we pretty much knew nothing about this guy. The Vietnam/PST thing reminded me of the donald comparing his sex life/risk of STD's with Vietnam.
My take is that the shooter had one field in which he was extremely bright (math). If there ever was an area of study that was open to employment, math is it. Regardless of certain job losses, this guy had more things available to him: engineering, medicine, pharmacology, architecture, and on and on, and on.
But I nstead he became a hermit with one girlfriend. Sitting for hours in front of a tv screen, playing games with anonymous others. He had plenty of time to perseverate about all that is wrong with the world. He did that for months, if not years. So he sent his girlfriend away with some $$$, and then planned this "day of the jackal" clusterfuck.
His father was a psychopath. Who can argue that he was too?
i was sickened by Hal's comment about "different people respond differently.....blah, blah, blah"
For anyone to try to ascribe this killer's motive to the kind of things we all endure in the job market it insulting.
BTW: I was once told, that, although I "presented well, " I was too smart for the job. --- I really needed that job, too. Sad
by CVille Dem on Sun, 10/15/2017 - 5:33pm
Oy yeah, it is a creative narrative ala fllmmaking which not coincidentally Palast hopes to brand himself with.
The wikipedia entry on Paddock gives the factual narrative. One doesn't chose a major in Business Administration if one dreams of creative working-class hero roles, just the opposite: that is showing an intent and desire to be on the management bean counting side of things. After a 2-year stint as a letter carrier which started before he graduated, he segued into a job as federal bureaucrat IRS agent for 6 yrs. and then related auditing, all as white collar as one can be. The CV with no dirty hands and tired muscles nor any creative or engineering impulse in the least, strictly bean counting:
Maybe if he had been able to be at Beverly Hills High he woulda went on to C.P.A. and worked for the other side rather than the IRS. Oh the humanity!
by artappraiser on Sun, 10/15/2017 - 5:48pm
Well, for myself, the greater deficit in Palast's piece is the use of fallacious logic. Let me see if I can strip this down:
We went to the same school for a time when we were young.
Everybody who went there was subjected to the same experience of being in an unprivileged class.
I probably would have killed lots of people like Paddock did if I had not found a way to fight back against the bastards who are holding me down.
This observation, of course, doesn't mean I am defending Paddock's actions or understand his motivations.
What?
by moat on Sun, 10/15/2017 - 6:37pm
Do you believe economics are an important tool in analyzing behavior even if they don't determine it in most cases.
by HSG on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 3:11pm
I'd like to answer that one. Only the young and hermits make that error. Get to know enough people from different economic backgrounds and you learn not to do that.
by artappraiser on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 3:19pm
P.S. Anyone who has waited on tables in a busy restaurant know that there's far greater correlation between the phases of the moon and people's behavior than correlation with economic class. If you wait on tables and anticipate behavior by economic class, you are in for some rude surprises.
I actually hold the strong opinion that hormonal imbalance has a lot to do with a lot of the gun deaths in this country. So the moon thing might have some vailidity.
Depression, suicide and other mental illness affect all classes.
And a reminder of the context of this thread. This is a guy who had socialist dream government jobs with good salaries. He clearly opted out of that 9 to 5 sure thing (there is no evidence that he was fired, he was moving up to better positions) to pursue an independent life of a capitalizer making his own hours, traveling allover the place at whim, staying in good hotels a lot, avoiding the mundane housekeeping that most have to do and amassing more money that I could ever dream of having.
by artappraiser on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 4:00pm
You are stuck on economics and cannot see that many white .people would operate against their economic well-being. Trump voters have significant racial bias. Obama had to be twice as good to reach the Presidency. The election of Trump tells black people that a white man who isn’t even half as good as Obama could get elected. Trump voters who need health care voted for the guy who wants to take health care away. People who got tax cuts under Obama voted in Trump who wants to increase their taxes to give tax cuts to the 1%. The election of Trump was really a white response to eight years of a black President. Trump voters are willing to dig themselves into an economic ditch as long as they can punish the blacks that Trump voters feel benefited under Obama. Focusing on economics misses the reason Trump got white .votes.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 3:44pm
And you are also stuck: the uneducated masses that voted for trump believed what he said when he promised "The BEST health care -- cheaper, better, and for everyone'" instead of the vilified ObamaCare that many of those same people had come to depend on to finally get care they needed. They also believed that he would give everyone a tax break, that he would create gazillions of jobs, and they would be great jobs, and they took the hint to heart that all those jobs would be for white folks. He would keep Muslims from getting near them, that he was going to "drain the swamp,". That Mexico would pay for a wall that would keep Mexicans out. And his insinuated promise that white people would be better off than all the lesser beings that make them so uncomfortable.
Trump had the advantage of not having a history of accomplishments, and so wasn't tarred with the factual proof that real, experienced republican politicians are really only pro-donors. They remain indifferent to ordinary Americans. Those 'Muricans keep voting R because of wedge issues like abortion, and the evangelical gravy-train sell-outs. But with the donald, they really thought they were going to win so much they would get tired of winning.
So, this election, they did not knowingly vote against their own benefit. They "thought" that this glib, mean, financially so-so, narcissistic con man would go to bat for them, and that he would fulfill his promises. If they had taken the time for a little due-diligence they would have known better.
by CVille Dem on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 5:07pm
Sorry, I don't quite buy it, that they thought things would work out. Maybe they expected it would fall to shit for everyone else but not for them and other good righteous souls, only for those uppity blacks and other undesireables. But no one who thought about it more than 5 sec could believe there was a plan. Okay, a wall -that's pretty straightforward. But fixing health care? No, chaos monkeys is what they wanted. Puerto Rico is their perfect storm. The one that hit Texas, half and half (godless sanctuary Houston can go soak.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 5:17pm
I often wonder what they believe. I've been watching it for years and it's hard to understand how they could possibly believe the shit they claim to. But if no one believes it and it's all a political ploy then it wouldn't work as a political ploy. Some people must have bought into it for it to work.
I suppose having been convinced that Obamacare was so bad they could be convinced that anything, even just repeal, would be better. After decades of propaganda that blamed all the decline in coal jobs on environmental regulation and desperate for jobs in their failing communities they could be convinced that simply revoking the regulations would bring all the jobs back. So under educated in their high school years with most never reading after graduation I suppose they never considered the effect of rising tech increasing production while reducing jobs or competition with lower cost natural gas from fracking or efficiency improvements in solar and other renewables.
But that's all simple, how many bought into the birtherism conspiracy theories? Just a short look and one had to go deep into the weeds to buy into it. Or years earlier when these lists of 40 or 50 people supposedly murdered by the Clintons went viral for it's time. Most were killed to set up, maintain, or hide the supposed drug smuggling ring run out of an Arkansas airport during Bill time as governor.
Who believed what when? I really haven't got a clue. It's all so much nonsense I can't fathom how any of it got any traction at all. But it did, these conspiracy theories went viral.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 6:58pm
Well said. There seems to be a mysterious attraction to this stuff.
by moat on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 7:05pm
CNN has done several different interviews with groups of trump voters. In fact most have been with people who really believed his promises and many are so disappointed that he isn’t delivering.
I still believe that they bought what he was selling, but I certainly don’t know for sure, and neither does anyone else, really. Including them.
The ones I don’t even want to understand are those who voted (or stayed home) thinking that Hillary was equally as bad. That is the person I have no respect for.
by CVille Dem on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 7:26pm
But if they're in your family? Makes things difficult. Yes, I spoke too hastily - some believe, for sone it's kind of an easy ploy, for some it's racism driving...
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 7:52pm
If they're in your family, I guess you have some real mental work to do. Trying to empathize with them seems futile. I guess you (I) need to avoid the subject and take yourself to a different place when around them. Also, avoid the four most gratifying words in the English language:
I told you so.
by CVille Dem on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 8:03pm
I feel your pain.
by moat on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 8:50pm
And I really respect the opinion of anyone who has bothered to watch some of those Trump-voter focus groups (or the similar recent confab held by Oprah for 60 Mins.)! While not perfect,they certainly are a lot more reliable than Dagblog people telling me what Trump voters think!
I agree with you from the ones I watched: many of them seem to have truly believed his promises and the ones that thought Hillary was the same thing are the real clueless mystery. The Trump fans in those groups had a lot of faith that a non-politician could finally accomplish some better stuff. As they come around to seeing "the swamp" winning, aided by Trump basically saying himself that is what's happening, wonder what they will do when he's not available to vote for. Stay home too? If you believe all politicians are useless and a non-politician can't win against them, will fail, that seems to be a possible end result to me!
by artappraiser on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 9:45pm
AA, when Trump tried to make a deal on immigration, the deplorables turned on him. They burned their MAGA hats.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/burn-my-maga-hat_us_59bb4dc9e4b0edff971ac966
The deplorables are xenophobes. You ignore what Trump supporters want. This is done at the peril of immigrants. They are the ones who face the consequences of the desires of the deplorables.
Edit to add:
John Boehner was not Conservative enough for the deplorables
Eric Cantor was not Conservative enough for the deplorables.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 10:19pm
In one of the Oprah snippets in your link, one Trumper agreed with Trump that “both sides did it” in Charlottesville. That is wingnut nonsense.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 10:44pm
But they believe it. That is the point. If they believe that the moon is made of green cheese, should it be reported, as though it is legitimate?
that is the norm now. And it is wrong.
by CVille Dem on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 11:26pm
They can believe whatever garbage they want. We can’t waste time trying to convert them. We need to mobilize our Democrats. For now, the deplorables are hopeless. They want to see children and the poor without health care. They want immigrants gone. They want my vote suppressed. Screw them.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/17/2017 - 12:09am
Rmrd, you consistently use terminology that stereotypes tribes. It's how you say things that I don't agree with. Declarative statements that: all blacks think this, and: all Trump voters think that.All blacks are good and wonderful and all Trump voters are evil. It's simply not true! All blacks do not think alike. I have black relatives that would not agree with what you say they believe. I know as well that all Trump voters do not think alike, I've even seen them debate each other.
For you to consistently suggest otherwise signfiies to me: agitprop coming, ignore.
I know you are free to go on with your rah rah agitprop: support this group, hate that group, but don't expect me to find it agreeable or trust anything else you say. Because to me it's just straight out lying! I'm not into that kind of politicking. I'm into finding nuance and understanding the "other", the individual others.
I am actually amazed that you don't see how you are one of the major types contributing to the divisiveness of this country with your angry rhethoric. It's like you want to increase the tribalism and set each group further against each other. Sorry but that's how I see a lot of what you write here. You put individuals in groups and label them all the same and then try to agitate for war between them. To me it's not that different from judging people alike by the color of their skin.
by artappraiser on Tue, 10/17/2017 - 12:57am
AA, you constantly point out what you perceive as my flaws. I don’t stereotype, I simply point ou what people say. You say that I classify all Trump voters as evil. You provide a link that you suggest indicates something different than I suggest. Yet there in the snippet is are the Trump supporters agreeing with Trump that “both sides do it” Your snippet verifies that they think Trump is taken out of context. Do you agree with them that Trump was taken out of context.
Can you provide a link where these Trump supporters are debating each other and disagreeing with his stance on immigration, health care, voter suppression, etc? What I have seen is that many are angry that the immigrants haven’t been booted out. I point out the hat burners. You counter with your opinion. Trump numbers fell in the South, not because they think he is bonkers, but because the foreigners haven’t been booted out. Show me data that says that I am not correct.
I show data that says that a majority of Trump supporters have racial bias and are xenophobic. You have no data to counter that fact. You divert to saying that I am calling all Trump supporters racists. The diversion is all you have. The bulk of the data supports my characterization of Trump voters.
Please show me data that supports your analysis that all Trump voters can’t be lumped together. Show me the Trump supporters who are objecting to the racist voter suppression program conducted by the GOP. That would show that all Trump voters are not racists. But we really aren’t talking about ALL Trump voters, we are talking about the majority. You want to divert the discussion from that fact.
Please point me to the link that shows Trump supports actively objecting to voter suppression.
If I’m cynical, it is because I remember people telling us how Ivanka and Jared would act as a balance to Trump in the White House. We now no that Ivanka and Jared are as flawed as Trump. Trump supporters Support the unsupportable. But I’m certain there are some very good people among them.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/17/2017 - 8:23am
The Trump supporters in those Oprah snippets fit what you call “my stereotype”. The first guy loves what Trump is doing. Another guy supports him “despite the tweets”.They all say poor old Trump is misunderstood. They are who I said they were. How are you missing what is staring you in the face?
Edit to add:
The Trump supporters equate the white supremacists to those who protested the axis.
I provide data supporting my position. I show polls and the words from the snippets you provide. Because you want to ignore what the Trump supporters are saying, you accuse me of proganda. Nonsense times two.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 10/17/2017 - 10:11am
46% thinks media makes up stuff about Trump. You just can't beat this stuff back with a weed whacker.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 10/18/2017 - 2:27pm
I don’t see what message would get through to Trump supporters. They have their own reality.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 10/18/2017 - 2:30pm
I have provided support for my statement that race triumphed over economics in the past. I will repeat two studies and polls again
ANES racism over economics
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/04/17/racism-motivated-trump-voters-more-than-authoritarianism-or-income-inequality/?utm_term=.9e95042734a1
Obama-Trump voter racial resentment
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/upshot/the-obama-trump-voters-are-real-heres-what-they-think.html
When I give an opinion, I try to back it up with sources. I can’t force people to review the sources. Democrats have a subset of white voters and a majority of ethnic minorities. That is the Democratic Party. We saw what happened when Republicans took in deplorables. The GOP thought they could control those folks, now they are under the control of the deplorables. Trump’s message on the wall, health care, taxes, etc. made no sense. Trump’s dog-whistles had an appeal. We have to live with that fact. Trump is a white supremacist. Jeff Sessions is his AG. Stephen Miller is still in the White House. I majority of white voters don’t care if blacks and Latinos are harmed. Trump encouraged racial violence at his rallies.
I vividly remember a black protester getting sucker punched by an old white Trump suppo
https://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/03/10/donald-trump-rally-protester/
The white guy wasn’t arrested initially.
The black guy who got sucker punched was detained immediately
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/10/black-protester-punched-donald-trump-rally-north-carolina
That is my America. Screw Trump voters.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 5:49pm
The financial conditions a person experiences is certainly an important element in their lives. How effective any measure of prosperity or poverty applies to any particular circumstance is limited by how those measures came into being. Standards of measure, economically speaking, are about identifying forms of exchange between parties. So if the behavior in question is about making an exchange in a market, it is reasonable to see that moment in the context of a system of transactions and fair to ask if trends seen on a larger scale are reflected in smaller ones. It is also fair to ask if economic conditions (as I just defined them) tend to increase or decrease the rate of killing in whatever frame of reference one tries to ask that question. But murder, per se, is not an exchange of value unless it is part of a deal. If the killing is not a commodity, then the use of economic models stops being about explaining an event. The particular crime becomes evidence for a particular theory of economy. Which is absurd.
It should also be noted that "economy" is not something that means something by itself but is dependent upon competing ideas of why humans do what they do. The class struggle theory of history is important and I bet it will continue to be. But it is not the only one. There are those who reject the idea of history having a shape at all.
I better stop there.
by moat on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 6:22pm
With all due respect, I think some of the commenters here confuse a partial explanation with complete exoneration. A millennia of German and Polish anti-semitism provides a partial explanation why the Nazis nearly achieved a Jew-free Europe. It does not exonerate them in the least.
by HSG on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 9:40am
Before one gets to the question of exoneration, the validity of the explanation needs to be accepted.
Palast asserts that a certain set of conditions were an element that motivated Paddock's actions. Palast has left no manifesto to suggest this narrative. Palast steps away from relating his theory to any of Paddock's behavior related to the crime itself.
Comparing this bundle of obfuscation with centuries of documented race hatred is off the mark.
by moat on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 10:18am
Paddock couldn't have even gone to Vietnam, too young, he wasn't denied an education, his job wasn't shipped to Mexico, and he hung out playing the slots and horses for years instead of working, long before retirement age. Palast simply lies. But we're supposed to ignore the lies and still play what-if? Right, like that's useful. "Hey, I'm the tooth fairy - how much do I weigh, and can I sprinkle pixie dust? Discuss in less than 500 words.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 10:30am
Even if the account were more true, to apply such a collection of associations to a crime of premeditated murder is to pay little attention to the consciousness involved in the act. As Dostoyevski said in Crime and Punishment:
"Actions are sometimes performed in a masterly and most cunning way, while the direction of the actions is deranged and dependent on various morbid impressions-it's like a dream." Chapter 17, pg. 197
by moat on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 12:18pm
by NCD on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 10:41am
That's your takeaway? Okay.
by HSG on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 1:24pm
I was raised in a lower middle class and working class neighborhood in Milwaukee very similar to the one described in the same era. Exactly the same time, when the threat of the boys being drafted was winding down. A lot of the boys in my huge impersonal boomer high school took "shop" or "drafting". There was an artificial class structure in the school where the proudly working class kids identified as greasers (ala Fonzie) interested in cars and hating school and the hopeful college bound as clean cut sports and pep rally and prom supporting. Then there were us roughly 5% "freaks", hippies who liked rock n roll and drugs and protests and reading off the curriculum and trying to start our own newspaper. (And yes, when the greasers who signed up for art class because it was some easy credits met up with the freaks in art class, there we did get along. But outside art class, not so easy of a relationship.)
As to the college bound, yes if your grades weren't high enough you were not going to the equivalent of Berkeley, UW Madison, you ended up at the equivalent of "Northridge", commuting to the UW branch of Milwaukee. If your grades were high enough, you were accepted at UW Madison and it was not at all difficult to pay the tuition and living expenses with federal loans, I know I did it at 17. My family did not have a cent to give me towards any of it. (My father was first white collar of his family, a low paid bureaucrat, and he went there, too,the first in his family to go to college, on the GI Bill.) After the first semester, I started working weekends and summers as a waitress so that I did not go into too much debt.
I distinctly remember my exceptional anger at this: that the wealthy out-of-state students whose parents were paying high out-of-state tuition and board had greater opportunity than me because they could take unpaid internships and do other career supporting things on weekends.
I did not go on to a life where I continued to envy those people. I actually went on to a life where I know many of them and even feel sorry for many of them. I actually treasure many of my memories from waitressing all through undergrad and grad school.
So with those bonafides, can i just say: NAFTA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.
And the elephant in the room: MY FATHER WAS NOT A BANK ROBBER who left my mother to raise her kids lying to them about where their father was. That's a bit of a difference between my background and Mr. Pollack's. Comes to mind some of the kids in my old hood with parents in the corner bar every night probably ended up in jail, yes I will admit that.
Further: I THINK I WOULD HAVE KILLED MYSELF LONG AGO IF WE HAD A SOCIALIST SYSTEM OF EDUCATION like you are clearly intimating would be better. Because I would have never been able to chose Art History as a major. Some bureaucrat would have forced me to select a study trajectory for which they deemed appropriate to get the dead end bureaucratic job in personnel that my father had that almost gave him a nervous breakdown. .
Further: the equivalence you are trying to make between now and them is yes, TOTALLY BONKERS. The problem of high public college education costs now did not exist back then. It could be afforded by the students themselves if they wanted. Yes, it was definitely merit based, you couldn't get into the main university without high grades. (This is something that socialist systems do too.) What did exist: many, but not all, rural conservative states had lousy public colleges (i.e., Oklahoma.) because they did not support with tax dollars. What did exist: If you wanted to live on campus and away from your parents, and your parents couldn't continue to support you, you had to become a grownup just like the 18-year olds that didn't go to college and figure out how to pay for your room and board.
In summary: I think it likelier that I would have had a breakdown where I went and got a gun and massacred a bunch of people if we lived in the classless society that you clearly seem to be advocating the more I read your commentary. i think that would offer all people less choice and less opportunity, not more.
by artappraiser on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 2:25pm
Or like all my adopted relatives, girl who had to study mechanical engineering because that was the egalitarian thing and only open slot; another girl who simply couldnt do college despite passing art/fashion school entrance because too many non-conformist family traits, including the father who'd studied in England so was untrustworthy the REST OF HIS FUCKING LIFE, getting a desk job in a factory and 0 travel, despite being a rare bird fluent in English with a real British economics degree. But hey, let's bring on another wave of mindless overly-optimistic socialism and class bitterness, all those coal miners and farmers and factory workers being taught to hate anyone with a dime's more advantage than them, even though absolutely evryone except a very select few were paid absolute equivalent crap.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 4:17pm
I shudder at those kind of stories still. It is a horror to me like no other, some bureaucrats having control over your life. It might seem trite and it's a tragedy that right wingers have co-opted the whole meme, but I like freedom. Yes even freedom to fail is precious.
Even some of the western European systems seem too strict for me. This 2014 Slate article on the French states the problem well:
This country should never ever give up the brand as being a place to "start over" that it shares with other "new world" countries like Canada and Australia. To have a hidebound educational and economic system where one must chose the trajectory of one's whole life at age 18, and be stuck with it, that will always be an obscenity to me. The irony is that the results were often no different than the class structure that some doing this purported to be replacing.
Here's the real hope for the future: that formal online education gets it act together enough so that it is respected enough by society at large, including most employers?
by artappraiser on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 9:16pm
Off thread thought, for PP in particular: this is how you end up with the majority of the Russian populace of today who are thrilled to have a daddy to tell them what they should do, what they should think about themselves and the rest of the world, who they are (as well as who does not qualify), what's great about them and their history (sons & daughters of Ivan the Terrible, loud and proud, for one thing...)
Almost makes one hope the North Korean people are not liberated all at once, but in slow stages, as the brainwash has perhaps been more thorough than any previous example in history. They may now be more dangerous than their weapons.
by artappraiser on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 9:29pm
Yeah, the British system for one makes you pick a narrowly defined subject area and stay there. I was the one always picking bizarre electives or trying to mash up degrees in strange combinations. And the thing is, modern settings require that in many ways. It's one thing to put up pretty graphics on a website, but if you can't deal with SEO or Google/Facebook analytics or put a snippet of Javascript behind it, what could be a 1-person job takes 2 or 3 people, and our economic direction just isn't support that kind of excess frivolity anymore.
Education is coming in for a reckoning - what is useful in class, in person, on-line. Self-serve and. guided. People who like videos and people who hate them, and other ways of learning. 16 years of education, but it's part socialization, yet perhaps that most important part is the least expertly dealt with, while 1st graders studying dinosaurs and planets and volcanoes is some kind of shared irrelevance - things that will almost certainly never touch your life, and could be handled as an aside in a half hour.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/17/2017 - 1:12am
Come on PP, you're better than this. It's not about dinosaurs, planets or volcanoes. It's about learning to read and trying to give 6, 7, etc. year old children some sense of the world, solar system, and the immensity of time. Some sense of their place in the cosmos that they can understand at that age. And, unfortunately, something shorn of politics, sex, and religion, anything controversial, because of the diverse nature of the belief systems of the children's parents.
What would you have those 6 year old kids read, The Student As Nigger? So they'd have the intellectual tools to self direct their own education?
by ocean-kat on Tue, 10/17/2017 - 2:24am
I said 30 minutes. Okay, a few classes would be fine for "place in the universe". But then they'll still spend 2 fucking months on volcanoes in high school geography, when few will ever see an active or inactive volcano and aside from an earth-changing eruption every 75 million years, they're far down on the "pressing needs" list.
Same with planets and such - great for inspiration when we had a man-made space program; now that we're sending probes to space, it's much more about the physics of motion and telecommunications, and not memorizing the names of constellations and planets even but knowing how they pull on each other and how solar flares work - hey, it's kind of cool that our solar system now has 8 or 12 planets, depending on how you count, but it's really for a tiny subset of human occupation, and it could be done as free time like football and chorus and....
Psychology? we don't teach how the mind works anywhere in grades K-12. Interpreting human mannerisms? Nowhere. Teams? well,no - we make groups and hope they work out (which they usually don't), but we don't teach about successful and unsuccessful teams anywhere, whether in regular curriculum or as part of external activities. Coaches may scream about it,but even then it's about running patterns, taking out the linebacker, not hogging the ball and cheering/spiking the ball occasionally. If anything our teamwork and bullying is getting worse.
What else useful in everyday life do we ignore?
well, we touch on sanitation in kindergarten, maybe more and more in health, but still pretty paltry. Lots of math - years and years - largely disconnected from any practical use. Why are you balancing those equations? what's a derivative or integral good for? what practical problems should you be using statistics & analytics for?
Money - it will occupy our lives perhaps the most over our lives, and now it's all being virtualized, yet we haven't come up with a new treatment in 200 years (yes, I'm pretty sure they had piggy banks of some sort back in Napoleon's age, at least for the uber-riche)
Physical Education - there's been a revolution in running techniques, knowledge of body & exercise, healthy ways of promoting life-long activity. How much of that makes it into K-12 PE classes, vs. "hey, here's a ball, go hit it around the gym and I'll go flirt with the other coach."
Did you know the brontosaurus is actually an apatosaurus mislabeled, and that ostriches stick their head in sand to turn eggs, not escape their predators (they can run 45 mph) , and no self-respected frog will sit meekly by to be boiled to death without hopping out of the pan - even the stuff we were supposedly learning was half nonsense. And we're years past into complex genetics and earth science and nanotech and.....
While it's admirable to learn cosmology and our place in it, it should be obvious that our country is rather scornful of facts. How is it that we're so deficient in science and other fields, so susceptible to chicanery?
Sexism - while we at least have some idea how to address racial equality, we have boys and girls in classes together for years and years, and I don't see any instructional or group approaches that address the development of these sexist values and work on replacing stalking & other creepy behavior as the basic way of interacting with the other sex. The Camille Paglia article was a nice antidote to too much boggled PC fancy thinking, but at the same time it's entirely Italian-based (we know those stereotypes), and yet we have a Trump & Harvey Weinstein thing going, and we can't trace back any responsibility to our educational or lack-of-educational system? I simply mean, we're monkeys that crawled down from the trees - I don't expect us to have a GPS map to Starbucks yet, but we can look around and say, "hey, this is basic shit we used to do up in the branches - and it doesn't really fit here in this Brave New World!!!" Instead, 1820's education keeps churning ahead.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 10/17/2017 - 3:50am
My niece, from Slovenija came to stay with me for a year to learn English and help me with my 3 children. At that point they were no longer communist, but most definitely socialist in many parts of their society. She had just finished high school and wanted to go into medicine. She took the obligatory tests and was told she could either go to dentistry school or veterinary school. To me there was no contest, and she (wisely, IMO) chose veterinary school.
She completed her studies and then was sent for 6 months to South Africa for large animal studies, to England for animal dentistry (seriously), and for a year to Prague for some other specialized course. After all that she works in a local clinic and Likes it.
But if her strength had not been in science, I have no doubt that she would have been the hospital lackey who insisted my other niece needed to stay in the hospital for 6 months FOR INFERTILITY!
You are right education may be free, but it may also come with an enormous price.
by CVille Dem on Mon, 10/16/2017 - 11:22pm
Actually if the government is not corrupt and rife with nepotism or similar (like NYC bureaucracy, hah) good qualified people probably get into most jobs like your first niece. Just because: what good would it do to sabotage society by putting the wrong people in them? What I don't like is how they are stuck in that decision for life, when there's little opportunity to change, renew, start on something else, because the system doesn't provide for it. It just contributes to thinking of work as drudgery and bleak existence, where there is no change.
Your comment also makes me think the decent mixed system we once had was best, where some public colleges have as good a reputation as private. Sure, wealthy tribes will always try to stick together and may at times run rampant in like, the State Dept., but eventually they need fresh blood, too. It runs in cycles, when the upper class tribals get too inbred, they know they can't keep it going that way. Usually someone bests em first anyways.
And you know, I think that is the best way with health care too, have national health and then if people want to pay for private, allow it. Yes, it gives preference to the wealthy, but hey, they aren't going away AND profit-driven medicine is very often a rip-off, hah!
by artappraiser on Tue, 10/17/2017 - 1:09am
White House operatives working along same lines:
Internal White House documents allege manufacturing decline increases abortions, infertility, and spousal abuse
by artappraiser on Wed, 10/18/2017 - 12:02pm